I was planning on making a boxed in area using railroad ties to grow
apple trees and garden berries. Also planed on building a fence using
railroad ties as posts and growing blackberries.

Someone on another group said nt to do that because of the pressure
treatment of railroad ties or cresote. Is this a problem? I think these
ties are old. I can get them for free from a local company that uses
them to stack wood flooring on.

I built my herb garden with crossties. It's about 9 x 20 feet, and 3 feet
high. Since I was worried about the creosote leaching into the soil, I
lined the inside of the structure with polethylene film. I also applied
some "weed stop" fabric to the bottom to keep mint and other persistent
pests out. I did this about 15 years ago, and the garden has been superb.
Since many of the herbs are perennials, I made sure the soil was pretty
good to start with; lots of topsoil and a couple of pickup loads of
mushroom compost (smelly for a few days, but the best stuff for growing).

Joe

wrote:

I was planning on making a boxed in area using railroad ties to grow
apple trees and garden berries. Also planed on building a fence using
railroad ties as posts and growing blackberries.

Someone on another group said nt to do that because of the pressure
treatment of railroad ties or cresote. Is this a problem? I think these
ties are old. I can get them for free from a local company that uses
them to stack wood flooring on.

Go for it, I ran a landscape biz for 12 yrs and built lots of things out of
used ties. A couple of things to keep in mind:
They are very dirty and the creosote can/will irritate your skin. They cut
well with a chainsaw, but look out for spikes and other bits of metal buried
in them, also you will wreck the chain you use. I used to do the
construction and then hit them with the pressure washer, they clean up nice.
to hold then together drill 7/16" holes (I used a ships auger bit) and drive
1/2" rebar thru them. For walls step successive courses back approx 1" each.
Get a helper they are heavy.

Enjoy

Andrew V
wrote in message
oups.com...
I was planning on making a boxed in area using railroad ties to grow
apple trees and garden berries. Also planed on building a fence using
railroad ties as posts and growing blackberries.

Someone on another group said nt to do that because of the pressure
treatment of railroad ties or cresote. Is this a problem? I think these
ties are old. I can get them for free from a local company that uses
them to stack wood flooring on.

Creosote isn't harmful in nature. It is a natural repellent for
insects. The stuff you want to watch out for is the fresh 'treated'
lumber sold in hardware & garden stores. They are pressure treated with
arsenic and other unfriendly chemicals.
I prefer R.R. ties any time, although they cost about $10 here.
Bugs

In article .com,
"Bugs" wrote:

Creosote isn't harmful in nature. It is a natural repellent for
insects. The stuff you want to watch out for is the fresh 'treated'
lumber sold in hardware & garden stores. They are pressure treated with
arsenic and other unfriendly chemicals.
I prefer R.R. ties any time, although they cost about $10 here.
Bugs

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...ed_lumber.html

The above might be helpful to any who don't have a source of RR ties
available.

Chromated Copper Arsenate has been mostly replaced by other chemicals
even though the EPA has never labeled it unsafe. Simple painting or
varnishing eliminated leaching of the arsenic compound to the surface
where people might get some of it on their skin or clothes.

For an opposing view with reported injuries from CCA, see:

http://www.bancca.org/CCA_Victims/CCA_victims.htm

Most of those cases seem to involve animals eating treated wood or
people burning it -- against industry recommendations. One guy burned it
in a grill to cook hot dogs. Another used it in a home fireplace or
woodstove.

On 10 Feb 2005 06:44:36 -0800, the inscrutable "Bugs"
spake:

Creosote isn't harmful in nature. It is a natural repellent for
insects. The stuff you want to watch out for is the fresh 'treated'
lumber sold in hardware & garden stores. They are pressure treated with
arsenic and other unfriendly chemicals.
I prefer R.R. ties any time, although they cost about $10 here.
Bugs

It's nearly spring and I'm having a 'unit' dropped here today. $6.99
each bought in units (lots of 25.)

I -won't- be using them near my organic herb and veggie garden.

More info:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html (Neutral(?) site)

From www.creosoteresources.com (speaking weasel site)
"Many chemicals manufacturers have been producing dangerous or toxic
chemicals for decades. Creosote is one of them. Creosote has been
regarded as a carcinogenic chemical compound since the late seventies.
The substance is often used as a preservative for many structural and
permanent wood products. Creosote is made in a high temperature
treatment process. Usually derived from coal, various woods or the
namesake of the substance: the creosote bush.

Creosote works well as a preservative and a bug repellent.
Unfortunately the substance is very common and millions of pounds of
creosote are manufactured each year and much is inevitably introduced
to the soil, air and ground water. High levels of exposure, or
exposure to creosote over time can cause skin problems, kidney and
liver problems, possible birth defects, unconsciousness and death.
Creosote is often introduced to the body through contact with wood
that is treated with creosote in houses, railroad tracks, telephone
poles and in other applications; and from drinking water that is
contaminated by creosote."


--
STOP LIVING LIKE VEAL
-----------------------
http://diversify.com Veal-free Websites

SNIP


They'll work fine for planting beds as is. I have RR ties right next to
my apple, plum and pear trees and have never had any ill effects.

SNIP

GWE
I guess you don't consider that third arm you grew an "ill effect"
ERS

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
SNIP


They'll work fine for planting beds as is. I have RR ties right next to
my apple, plum and pear trees and have never had any ill effects.

SNIP

GWE
I guess you don't consider that third arm you grew an "ill effect"
ERS

There are a lot of times I'd consider a third arm to be an advantage.

I grow skeptical of these fears about pollutant-caused mutations. We have
some crabs in the cooling stream of a local nuclear reactor that a seafood
chef would die for. And, living 6 miles from the Raritan Bay, I'm looking
forward to the day when global warming brings the beach up to the back of my
yard. As long as it stops right there, of course. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Gene Kearns wrote:

On 10 Feb 2005 05:55:47 -0800, wrote:



I was planning on making a boxed in area using railroad ties to grow
apple trees and garden berries. Also planed on building a fence using
railroad ties as posts and growing blackberries.

Someone on another group said nt to do that because of the pressure
treatment of railroad ties or cresote. Is this a problem? I think these
ties are old. I can get them for free from a local company that uses
them to stack wood flooring on.



IF you are thinking of the long haul.... use stone. I used crossties
to landscape my property in the late 70's. Many have turned to
mulch... they'll be replaced with stone.


Same problem here....the outside survives well but the cores are not
saturated with the stuff so you get a hollow log over time. Still looks
great ont he outside but collapses like a cardboard box under pressure.

Also, the last time I pulled any ties the core had carpenter ants living
nicely inside as well as a few termites (Washington state on the wet
side). They may be a cheap and easy solution but don't think they'll be
the best choice in the long run.

The next time I do anything needing a tie or stone, I'll probably go the
extra mile and make my own hypertufa blocks. They are fairly light, can
be made in any shape you want, look like stone (over time) and last
forever if done right. Pretty cheap way to go if you don't include the
labor to make them in the costs.

Koz

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:56:36 -0800, Koz
wrote:



Gene Kearns wrote:

On 10 Feb 2005 05:55:47 -0800, wrote:



I was planning on making a boxed in area using railroad ties to grow
apple trees and garden berries. Also planed on building a fence using
railroad ties as posts and growing blackberries.

Someone on another group said nt to do that because of the pressure
treatment of railroad ties or cresote. Is this a problem? I think these
ties are old. I can get them for free from a local company that uses
them to stack wood flooring on.



IF you are thinking of the long haul.... use stone. I used crossties
to landscape my property in the late 70's. Many have turned to
mulch... they'll be replaced with stone.


Same problem here....the outside survives well but the cores are not
saturated with the stuff so you get a hollow log over time. Still looks
great ont he outside but collapses like a cardboard box under pressure.

Also, the last time I pulled any ties the core had carpenter ants living
nicely inside as well as a few termites (Washington state on the wet
side). They may be a cheap and easy solution but don't think they'll be
the best choice in the long run.

The next time I do anything needing a tie or stone, I'll probably go the
extra mile and make my own hypertufa blocks. They are fairly light, can
be made in any shape you want, look like stone (over time) and last
forever if done right. Pretty cheap way to go if you don't include the
labor to make them in the costs.

Koz
The ties produced in the last 45 or 50 years are not as well preserved
as the early stuff. There are ties from the early '40s in much better
shape than many from the early seventies.

Koz wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote:

On 10 Feb 2005 05:55:47 -0800, wrote:



I was planning on making a boxed in area using railroad ties to
grow
apple trees and garden berries. Also planed on building a fence
using
railroad ties as posts and growing blackberries.

Someone on another group said nt to do that because of the pressure
treatment of railroad ties or cresote. Is this a problem? I think
these
ties are old. I can get them for free from a local company that
uses
them to stack wood flooring on.



IF you are thinking of the long haul.... use stone. I used crossties
to landscape my property in the late 70's. Many have turned to
mulch... they'll be replaced with stone.


Same problem here....the outside survives well but the cores are not
saturated with the stuff so you get a hollow log over time. Still
looks
great ont he outside but collapses like a cardboard box under
pressure.

Also, the last time I pulled any ties the core had carpenter ants
living
nicely inside as well as a few termites (Washington state on the wet
side). They may be a cheap and easy solution but don't think they'll
be
the best choice in the long run.

The next time I do anything needing a tie or stone, I'll probably go
the
extra mile and make my own hypertufa blocks. They are fairly light,
can
be made in any shape you want, look like stone (over time) and last
forever if done right. Pretty cheap way to go if you don't include
the
labor to make them in the costs.

Koz

What are hypertuffa blocks?

By the way, someone said to pressure wash the ties and they will look
pretty. Will that take the cresote protection off?

Gene Kearns wrote:

On 10 Feb 2005 05:55:47 -0800, wrote:

I was planning on making a boxed in area using railroad ties to grow
apple trees and garden berries. Also planed on building a fence using
railroad ties as posts and growing blackberries.

Someone on another group said nt to do that because of the pressure
treatment of railroad ties or cresote. Is this a problem? I think these
ties are old. I can get them for free from a local company that uses
them to stack wood flooring on.

IF you are thinking of the long haul.... use stone. I used crossties
to landscape my property in the late 70's. Many have turned to
mulch... they'll be replaced with stone.
--

Homepage
http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/machine_shop/index.htm

I agree! The ties last a long, long time in a RR bed because they rest
on gravel and are well drained. Set them on dirt and they rot much
quicker. Well, OK, my terrace walls did last 20 years, but had ferns
growing out of them in the end.

By the way, someone said to pressure wash the ties and they will look
pretty. Will that take the cresote protection off?



Ummm...I said they clean up nice, specifically it will even out the dark
brown color and remove loose dust-dirt/ creosote. I suppose if you really
pound them with the pressure washer you might remove a few years of
protection but the important part is soaked deeply into the wood.

Enjoy

Andrew V

"Bugs" wrote in message
oups.com...
Creosote isn't harmful in nature. It is a natural repellent for
insects. The stuff you want to watch out for is the fresh 'treated'
lumber sold in hardware & garden stores. They are pressure treated with
arsenic and other unfriendly chemicals.
I prefer R.R. ties any time, although they cost about $10 here.
Bugs


IIRC, creosote has polynuclear aromatics in it and those are generally
considered to be harmful.

On 10 Feb 2005 05:55:47 -0800, wrote:

===I was planning on making a boxed in area using railroad ties to grow
===apple trees and garden berries. Also planed on building a fence using
===railroad ties as posts and growing blackberries.
===
===Someone on another group said nt to do that because of the pressure
===treatment of railroad ties or cresote. Is this a problem? I think these
===ties are old. I can get them for free from a local company that uses
===them to stack wood flooring on.

I don;t think there is a problem with using them for what you
describve. I hgave lots of cross ties and power poles in use aorund
my place. Creosote will usually kill vegetation, but grass grows up
and into the cross ties I have........Lots of folks are paranoid about
usjuing pressure treated lumber to build piers etc in ponds
etc.......look at most any papers by any university or wildlife
divison on building piers and seawalls and you always find cross ties
and or PT lumber specified. I have som e cross ties used to uspport a
pier, as well as some power poles, which are from from being bleached
or dried out, and algae grows most abundantly on them...so I am rather
skeptical if any possible leeching is a problem worth getting
concerned about. Same for my garden borders, nice juicy cross ties
that you can smell on those hot summer days, and my veggies etc grow
just fine, and its been in use for years and no one has had
problems........once again county co-op agents recomend cross ties and
PT lumber for this use.

Perhaps if you live in Kalifornia there may be a regulation in effect
, as they seem to have a law for most everything.

REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

wrote:

Koz wrote:


Gene Kearns wrote:



On 10 Feb 2005 05:55:47 -0800, wrote:





I was planning on making a boxed in area using railroad ties to


grow


apple trees and garden berries. Also planed on building a fence


using


railroad ties as posts and growing blackberries.

Someone on another group said nt to do that because of the pressure
treatment of railroad ties or cresote. Is this a problem? I think


these


ties are old. I can get them for free from a local company that


uses


them to stack wood flooring on.




IF you are thinking of the long haul.... use stone. I used crossties
to landscape my property in the late 70's. Many have turned to
mulch... they'll be replaced with stone.




Same problem here....the outside survives well but the cores are not
saturated with the stuff so you get a hollow log over time. Still


looks


great ont he outside but collapses like a cardboard box under


pressure.


Also, the last time I pulled any ties the core had carpenter ants


living


nicely inside as well as a few termites (Washington state on the wet
side). They may be a cheap and easy solution but don't think they'll


be


the best choice in the long run.

The next time I do anything needing a tie or stone, I'll probably go


the


extra mile and make my own hypertufa blocks. They are fairly light,


can


be made in any shape you want, look like stone (over time) and last
forever if done right. Pretty cheap way to go if you don't include


the


labor to make them in the costs.

Koz



What are hypertuffa blocks?

By the way, someone said to pressure wash the ties and they will look
pretty. Will that take the cresote protection off?



Hypertufa forum: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/hypertufa/

Also lots of other links to be found with a google or altavista serach,
some having better pictures of what can be done.

For those who don't feel like looking around, Hypertufa is essentially
concrete which has been mixed with a large amount of organic matter
like peat moss. Generally, the gravel portion of the mix is left out.
The organic matter makes the block, planter or other structure lighter
and also rots away over time leaving what looks like a volcanic stone
similar to "tufa" that is often carved in Italy (roman days mostly) to
use for troughs and such. After casting the chape, the surface is
usually wire brushed while still slightly soft to break the surfaces a
little and make it look more like natural stone. I've seen pieces that
you could not tell were "manufactured".

Due to the porosity of the block, it tends to grow moss well which
enhances it's natural look. I havent had any winter freezing problems
with the little I have made but that may be a concern that should be
addressed in heavy freeze-thaw climates.


Koz

wrote in message
ps.com...

What are hypertuffa blocks?

Aren't you lucky ! This Months (march 05)issue of "this old house " mag has
a how to section on hypertuffa blocks. covers how to make molds & has
recipes for the mix.

Enjoy

Andrew V

Hi,

I have been around cresote timbers and pressure treated timbers for
years and while they work at first, they will in time begin to harbor
ants and termites who will sooner or later find other wood in the
area...like your house.

The concern that I would have for both treated wood or cresote is that
as it leaches out, it can enter your water supply. Unless you test your
water for the possible contaminates on a regular basis, you will not
know if you have something to worry about or not. As for growing
foodstuffs around the timbers, one needs to remember that each type of
plant absorbs different minerals and elements. Hopefully the plants you
grow will not translocate arsenic and other heavy metals from the
leaching pressure treated lumber and into the fruits and vegetables
that you and your family will eat. Again, you will not know unless you
test each and every different plant for each of the agents involved.

I am the last one to worry about baseless claims and worries but I
assure you that unless you periodically test for the contaminates, you
will not know if you have a problem or not.

My advice...use stone or other building material that you can build
with and then forget about.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing.

TMT