Now that I'm familiar with how to remove a propane tank valve, what if
I filled the tank about halfway with water, plumbed in regular black pipe
plumbing with a sturdy tee with blowoff valve set for like 200 psi and
a beefy gate valve, and set it on my outdoor propane burner (for deepfat
turkey frying) to generate steam for steam cleaning? The tank's supposed
to be good to 250 psi. Could this generate enough steam to do anything
useful? Steam whistle at a logging show? Anything?

GWE
on a propane tank binge

Grant Erwin wrote:
Now that I'm familiar with how to remove a propane tank valve, what if
I filled the tank about halfway with water, plumbed in regular black pipe
plumbing with a sturdy tee with blowoff valve set for like 200 psi and
a beefy gate valve, and set it on my outdoor propane burner (for deepfat
turkey frying) to generate steam for steam cleaning? The tank's supposed
to be good to 250 psi. Could this generate enough steam to do anything
useful? Steam whistle at a logging show? Anything?

GWE
on a propane tank binge

That would make good steamer for steam bending wood. I've use an empty
paint can for the boiler, but in my mind's eye I envisioned something
more like what you describe.

--
Gary Brady
Austin, TX
www.powdercoatoven.4t.com

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:57:47 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:

Now that I'm familiar with how to remove a propane tank valve, what if
I filled the tank about halfway with water, plumbed in regular black pipe
plumbing with a sturdy tee with blowoff valve set for like 200 psi and
a beefy gate valve, and set it on my outdoor propane burner (for deepfat
turkey frying) to generate steam for steam cleaning? The tank's supposed
to be good to 250 psi. Could this generate enough steam to do anything
useful? Steam whistle at a logging show? Anything?

I figure 25,000 BTU/hr would make about 6 CFM of steam at 2 bar (29.4
PSI). That's neglecting losses; I just used heat of vaporization
and density of steam.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:57:47 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:


Now that I'm familiar with how to remove a propane tank valve, what if
I filled the tank about halfway with water, plumbed in regular black pipe
plumbing with a sturdy tee with blowoff valve set for like 200 psi and
a beefy gate valve, and set it on my outdoor propane burner (for deepfat
turkey frying) to generate steam for steam cleaning? The tank's supposed
to be good to 250 psi. Could this generate enough steam to do anything
useful? Steam whistle at a logging show? Anything?


I figure 25,000 BTU/hr would make about 6 CFM of steam at 2 bar (29.4
PSI). That's neglecting losses; I just used heat of vaporization
and density of steam.


Are regular hardware store pipe fittings able to take the pressure?
What was that old saying about a chain and a link?

Ken Grunke

--
take da "ma" offa dot com fer eemayl

Grant Erwin wrote:

Now that I'm familiar with how to remove a propane tank valve, what if
I filled the tank about halfway with water, plumbed in regular black pipe
plumbing with a sturdy tee with blowoff valve set for like 200 psi and
a beefy gate valve, and set it on my outdoor propane burner (for deepfat
turkey frying) to generate steam for steam cleaning? The tank's supposed
to be good to 250 psi. Could this generate enough steam to do anything
useful? Steam whistle at a logging show? Anything?

GWE
on a propane tank binge

Use caution, pressure capabilities change with temperature. I guess I'd
want to know at what temperature is it rated 250 psi , and how hot is
200 pound steam?

Paul
--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

One of the model engineering magazines, HSM I think, had an letter from a
boiler inspector about this very subject. He went on about pressure vessels
and heated pressure vessels being very different. In the end it was no way
in hell should anyone do this. I'm sorry I can't quote the article as I
have been going through a lot of the old magazines that I have just
acquired.
lg
no neat sig line

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Now that I'm familiar with how to remove a propane tank valve, what if
I filled the tank about halfway with water, plumbed in regular black pipe
plumbing with a sturdy tee with blowoff valve set for like 200 psi and
a beefy gate valve, and set it on my outdoor propane burner (for deepfat
turkey frying) to generate steam for steam cleaning? The tank's supposed
to be good to 250 psi. Could this generate enough steam to do anything
useful? Steam whistle at a logging show? Anything?

GWE
on a propane tank binge

larry g wrote:

One of the model engineering magazines, HSM I think, had an letter from a
boiler inspector about this very subject. He went on about pressure vessels
and heated pressure vessels being very different. In the end it was no way
in hell should anyone do this. I'm sorry I can't quote the article as I
have been going through a lot of the old magazines that I have just
acquired.

Hmm. Often when someone from an industry whose revenue source depends on
scarcity says "oh no you surely cannot do that" what it really means is
"oh my if everyone did that I'd be out of work". I vaguely remember the
letter, probably was HSM. I'd welcome it if anyone knows which -- since 1982
there have been over 135 issues, that's a LOT of reading.

I'll keep it in mind anyway.

I thought of yet another use, this one no one would complain about. Leave
the ring on the bottom, cut the top off so the walls are still vertical but
as tall as possible, clean it out. Then use it with lye, TSP or dishwashing
detergent and small-medium parts over outdoor burner for homemade "hot tank"
cleaning. This will remove paint from many difficult-to-clean items. The
toughest one I did was the carburetor from an outboard motor. I took the
carburetor in, cleaned, to buy some parts for it and the parts guy called
his buds over and they all said they'd never ever seen a Tecumseh carb
that clean.

GWE

Grant Erwin wrote:
larry g wrote:

One of the model engineering magazines, HSM I think, had an letter from a
boiler inspector about this very subject. He went on about pressure vessels
and heated pressure vessels being very different. In the end it was no way
in hell should anyone do this. I'm sorry I can't quote the article as I
have been going through a lot of the old magazines that I have just
acquired.

Hmm. Often when someone from an industry whose revenue source depends on
scarcity says "oh no you surely cannot do that" what it really means is
"oh my if everyone did that I'd be out of work". I vaguely remember the
letter, probably was HSM. I'd welcome it if anyone knows which -- since 1982
there have been over 135 issues, that's a LOT of reading.

Practically all the heated boiler/steam legislation is there because
people have regularly killed themselves with things they thought would
be fine.

I hesitate to jump in here as my knowledge of the subject is limited to
reading, but IIRC the problem lies in the superheated water in the
container. The pressure allows the water to be heated to well above boiling
point at atmospheric pressure. When you release the pressure as in opening
the steamcleaner valve, all the water can now turn to steam very rapidly.
If your popoff valve does not have sufficient capacity to dump the excess
pressure fast enough the vessel can become overpressured and turn into a
bomb. Seems there was also a greater problem as the water level gets down,
the flash over can occure more rapidly.
Other than that I am all ready to go fire up the crab cooker and stick a
propane tank full of water on it to see how well it works
Glenn
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Grant Erwin wrote:
larry g wrote:

One of the model engineering magazines, HSM I think, had an letter from
a
boiler inspector about this very subject. He went on about pressure
vessels
and heated pressure vessels being very different. In the end it was no
way
in hell should anyone do this. I'm sorry I can't quote the article as I
have been going through a lot of the old magazines that I have just
acquired.

Hmm. Often when someone from an industry whose revenue source depends on
scarcity says "oh no you surely cannot do that" what it really means is
"oh my if everyone did that I'd be out of work". I vaguely remember the
letter, probably was HSM. I'd welcome it if anyone knows which -- since
1982
there have been over 135 issues, that's a LOT of reading.

Practically all the heated boiler/steam legislation is there because
people have regularly killed themselves with things they thought would
be fine.

I hesitate to jump in here as my knowledge of the subject is limited to
reading, but IIRC the problem lies in the superheated water in the
container. The pressure allows the water to be heated to well above boiling
point at atmospheric pressure. When you release the pressure as in opening
the steamcleaner valve, all the water can now turn to steam very rapidly.
If your popoff valve does not have sufficient capacity to dump the excess
pressure fast enough the vessel can become overpressured and turn into a
bomb. Seems there was also a greater problem as the water level gets down,
the flash over can occure more rapidly.
Other than that I am all ready to go fire up the crab cooker and stick a
propane tank full of water on it to see how well it works
Glenn
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Grant Erwin wrote:
larry g wrote:

One of the model engineering magazines, HSM I think, had an letter from
a
boiler inspector about this very subject. He went on about pressure
vessels
and heated pressure vessels being very different. In the end it was no
way
in hell should anyone do this. I'm sorry I can't quote the article as I
have been going through a lot of the old magazines that I have just
acquired.

Hmm. Often when someone from an industry whose revenue source depends on
scarcity says "oh no you surely cannot do that" what it really means is
"oh my if everyone did that I'd be out of work". I vaguely remember the
letter, probably was HSM. I'd welcome it if anyone knows which -- since
1982
there have been over 135 issues, that's a LOT of reading.

Practically all the heated boiler/steam legislation is there because
people have regularly killed themselves with things they thought would
be fine.



you all do realize that a simple garden hose and nozzle attached to the drain
valve on your water heater is all the steam cleaning you will ever need to use.
When I hear the term superheated steam I wonder if you all are familiar with
boiler technology and uses/ makeing of dry steam. you aint gonna accomplish
that with a lil cooker and an old propane tank. you would be missing the
internal firebox featuring muliple steam generation tubes. The presureized and
regulated fuel oil header system with throttles and burner barrels. The forced
draft blowers required to move enough combustion air to the fire box to
generate a signifigant volume of steam top be more than slighjtly useful. and
last byt not least., in making superheated dry steam you need cyclone
separetors to rapidly change direction of the water vapor leaving your
firesides, thus droping any moisture out and back down to the generation tubes
to be flashed again to vapor. Complicated mess really. sperheated and dry steam
refer to the product of a 1200 lb psig dry steam d type boiler plant , like on
ship board.

of course you could just generate 150 lbs aux steam , for a degreasing wand,
with out much more danger than using a pressure cooker. Still, the garden hose
is easier, imho
MLM

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show "Glenn"
wrote back on Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:15:27 -0800 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
I hesitate to jump in here as my knowledge of the subject is limited to
reading, but IIRC the problem lies in the superheated water in the
container. The pressure allows the water to be heated to well above boiling
point at atmospheric pressure. When you release the pressure as in opening
the steamcleaner valve, all the water can now turn to steam very rapidly.
If your popoff valve does not have sufficient capacity to dump the excess
pressure fast enough the vessel can become overpressured and turn into a
bomb. Seems there was also a greater problem as the water level gets down,
the flash over can occure more rapidly.

For the "Rube Goldbergs" among us, it shouldn't be "too difficult" to
rig a water quench on the steam tank. That is, when the "Oh ****"
pressure valve cuts loose, it trips water reserve, which floods around the
boiler, which "should" soak up heat from the boiler, and hopefully lower
the temp enough to keep the superheated water from trying to become steam.
Or just lower it back to "really hot water".

What comes to mind is a kind of jacket around the boiler, with at least
an equal capacity to the boiler. Normally it is empty, but to shut things
down, you dump water into it and let nature take its course. Hmmm, now I'm
going to be up all night pondering this.


--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

In article , Grant Erwin says...

Hmm. Often when someone from an industry whose revenue source depends on
scarcity says "oh no you surely cannot do that" what it really means is
"oh my if everyone did that I'd be out of work". I vaguely remember the
letter, probably was HSM. I'd welcome it if anyone knows which -- since 1982
there have been over 135 issues, that's a LOT of reading.

If you do what you are proposing, you are making a boiler.

The requirements for boiler blow-offs are different than
ordinary pressure vessels, and you should understand the
differences before you put it to work, and see that you
have followed the requirements.

I seem to recall a boiler explosion in a vintage tractor
at a farm fair recently that killed a number of people.

It was a crown sheet explosion. Apparently when a boiler
breaks open, the pressure lowers rapidly which causes the
liquid remaining in teh boiler to flash to steam.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Grant Erwin says...

Hmm. Often when someone from an industry whose revenue source depends on
scarcity says "oh no you surely cannot do that" what it really means is
"oh my if everyone did that I'd be out of work". I vaguely remember the
letter, probably was HSM. I'd welcome it if anyone knows which -- since 1982
there have been over 135 issues, that's a LOT of reading.

If you do what you are proposing, you are making a boiler.

The requirements for boiler blow-offs are different than
ordinary pressure vessels, and you should understand the
differences before you put it to work, and see that you
have followed the requirements.

I seem to recall a boiler explosion in a vintage tractor
at a farm fair recently that killed a number of people.

AIUI, the guy had also failed to maintain it to such a degree
that 3 independant safety systems failed.

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Grant Erwin says...


Hmm. Often when someone from an industry whose revenue source depends on
scarcity says "oh no you surely cannot do that" what it really means is
"oh my if everyone did that I'd be out of work". I vaguely remember the
letter, probably was HSM. I'd welcome it if anyone knows which -- since 1982
there have been over 135 issues, that's a LOT of reading.


If you do what you are proposing, you are making a boiler.

The requirements for boiler blow-offs are different than
ordinary pressure vessels, and you should understand the
differences before you put it to work, and see that you
have followed the requirements.

I seem to recall a boiler explosion in a vintage tractor
at a farm fair recently that killed a number of people.

It was a crown sheet explosion. Apparently when a boiler
breaks open, the pressure lowers rapidly which causes the
liquid remaining in teh boiler to flash to steam.

A little more detail - if you let the water drop
very low and the tractor is standing still, it's
possible for the crown sheet to get red hot even
though there's still some water in the boiler.
As soon as the engine lurches forward, the the
water splashes on the crown sheet and flashes
to steam. No safety valve can vent the pressure
surge in time, not to mention the stresses on the
crown sheet from the temperature changes.

The engine in Ohio did have a very erroded crown
sheet that contributed to the explosion, but I
also suspect there was operator error.

The first rule of operating those old engines
is to always keep plenty of water in the boiler.


Jim

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Now that I'm familiar with how to remove a propane tank valve, what if
I filled the tank about halfway with water, plumbed in regular black pipe
plumbing with a sturdy tee with blowoff valve set for like 200 psi and
a beefy gate valve, and set it on my outdoor propane burner (for deepfat
turkey frying) to generate steam for steam cleaning? The tank's supposed
to be good to 250 psi. Could this generate enough steam to do anything
useful? Steam whistle at a logging show? Anything?

GWE
on a propane tank binge

Sounds like a possible Darwin winner to me!
Greg

Greg O wrote:

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...

Now that I'm familiar with how to remove a propane tank valve, what if
I filled the tank about halfway with water, plumbed in regular black pipe
plumbing with a sturdy tee with blowoff valve set for like 200 psi and
a beefy gate valve, and set it on my outdoor propane burner (for deepfat
turkey frying) to generate steam for steam cleaning? The tank's supposed
to be good to 250 psi. Could this generate enough steam to do anything
useful? Steam whistle at a logging show? Anything?

GWE
on a propane tank binge


Sounds like a possible Darwin winner to me!
Greg

Far too late for that. My genes are already distributed. It might keep the
propane tank from reproducing, though! :-)

GWE

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:00:58 -0800, Grant Erwin
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

But are you _progeny_ going to be far enough away? G

Far too late for that. My genes are already distributed. It might keep the
propane tank from reproducing, though! :-)

GWE