In article ,
e wrote:

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:31:05 -0800, Jerry Irvine
wrote:

Which in no way discusses the methods to avoid it. Go away.

Common sense isn't your strong point. It's called the proper tool for
the job, and if you haven't got it, buy it. If you would rather pay
in stitches instead of bucks, have at it, I really don't care.


What tool?

Go away.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. mail
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message .com...

**************************************************
You have a nitche and skills and a work ethic, today that is rare with the
18-30 age range.

Don't know where you are, don't really care, but around here, the
skills I have ONCE were not rare, they were extremely common, and
expected. The work ethic, most of the shops are piecework, which
kinda gives most people a little hurry up, and the fact that the
companies don't pay for scrap gives a little responsibility. Bringing
the time study man down if the production goes above a certain
percentage of timing rate, normally 150% keeps the meathounds and
meatheads away. Now, six months in a tech school, and "I are a
machinist", even if they still can't spell it.

I sence you have never been on the other side of the coin
and have "Union Forever" blood in you're veins.

You sense nothing, my first five working years were non union, my last
eight were not union. Add in time working non union during the ruin
of raygun, one third of my 45 years were not union. Add in the years
that I worked two or three jobs to try to stay ahead, and it probably
comes down to less than half.

I do know this, for the last two years the owner of the last shop I
worked in has been looking for another man, and not having any luck.
Union or not, it doesn't make any difference, toolmakers, with card,
come in, but they've been running, as one told us, CNC jig grinding.
Very strange how they can't do the same work on a Bridgeport. One
young man, and not too bright either, comes in, the job he has now,
they classify him as a machinist. He's nineteen years old. Yeah.
There used to be three job shops here in town, two of them went CNC,
didn't want to bother with the walk in jobs, or the repair work, both
of them went belly up. The one remaining, we took anything that came
through the door, still have our customer base, and that includes some
pretty big names, Aire Liquide being one of them. A year ago he
finally put a computer in the office, his wife uses that for the
bookwork, I have a simple program that calculates bolt circle
coordinates and gear spacing in it. No other computer in the
building. He does everything from building machines for other
companies to making teeny little collets for a manufacturer of medical
supplies, and anything in between that comes through the door.
Specialization? The specialized shops are bankrupt, that's not the
route he wants to go. He's got plenty of work for at least another
man, maybe even two, but no qualified applicants, even for $18 to $20
per hour. With a shortage of hands, there is no time available to
train one, anyone that comes in has to be able to take a job and do it
on his own. Sure, there are some jobs that will have the whole crew
staring at it and wondering how to do it, but in the end, it's done,
and done right the first time.

Who to blame? Not the unions, but the shortsightedness of management
that doesn't realize, won't realize, that if something goes wrong, the
button pusher better know how to fix it. The thought that
apprenticeships are expensive, and they are, but they're not a cost to
be avoided if you want to stay in business. The thought that you can
pay a $12 per hour drone and get the same as you would from someone
with an understanding of the work for $20 per hour, and be ahead,
which isn't going to work either. Or, as Case did some years ago,
replace the layout table and height gages with Zeiss CMMs, complete
with the $1200 per day technician that should have had a cot there.
Sure, the Zeiss let a C inspector do the work of an A, until it
refused to work, then they were screwed, with nobody that could do the
work the old way. Now instead of having to wait for a half hour
longer, you can have the whole line down for a couple of days waiting
for the technician to arrive from Germany. At over $2000 per minute
for down time. And no matter how much the union tried, they couldn't
get the company to keep the requirement for an A inspector to know and
be able to efficiently use a granite table and height gage. So you
end up with inspectors that can't inspect, then blame the union for
it.

For over 25 years, there was a common goal for both the union and the
company, that was for the company to survive. Companies today don't
care about a common goal, why in hell should any union? "I was
looking for a job when I found this one."

"M" mark@maxmachinedotcom wrote in message ...
"Tom Gardner" wrote




Hokay, brain boy. I've got a nice little simple job, a small, very
small press brake, hand operated. I've bid it at $350, and stand to
come out quite well. You beat that price by 10%, and deliver one that
works as well as the others I've made, and you've got a job. Mostly
milling, nothing nastier than 4140HT, 1045 side plates. Material cost
is in the $350. Either put up or shut up. A lathe is needed only to
make the eccentric, beyond that, milling and grinding.

Oh, yeah. It can only handle 1/4" by 1 1/2" wide cold rolled flat
stock, or 1/8" stainless sheet 8" wide.

You won't be the first one that can't do it for under $1000.

Ahhh, ****! Never mind, I'll do it tomorrow afternoon.

Jerry Irvine wrote in message ...



What tool?

In joelene's particular case, the cheapest el cheapo lathe you can lay
your hands on would be ten times more accurate than he is capable of
needing. With less than 1% of the hazard.

Go away.

When your problem child quits his stalking, I'll quit sending it to
his own playpen.

"Ken Davey" wrote in message ...

How many abuses do you have to hear about - unpaid
hours, fired for being pregnant, dangerous conditions, fired for complaining
about or pointing out hazardous conditions, sexual harassment, racial
discrimination, outright slave labour conditions -

Walmart, down to the dotted "i".

In article ,
(Lennie the Lurker) wrote:

Jerry Irvine wrote in message
...



What tool?

In joelene's particular case, the cheapest el cheapo lathe you can lay
your hands on would be ten times more accurate than he is capable of
needing. With less than 1% of the hazard.

Go away.

When your problem child quits his stalking, I'll quit sending it to
his own playpen.

I think you mean MY playpen.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. mail
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
When your problem child quits his stalking, I'll quit sending it to
his own playpen.

So your word is worthless as well. Quit your asshole posts to rcm and I
won't have to reply.

"Joel Corwith" wrote in message .. .
"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
When your problem child quits his stalking, I'll quit sending it to
his own playpen.

So your word is worthless as well. Quit your asshole posts to rcm and I
won't have to reply.

Two things that have not and will never enter into your world,
egotistical jerk, are commons sense, and any knowledge of
metalworking. Your replies to any subject are worthless, and you know
nothing about any of them. Just crawl back to your toy rocket group
and quit pretending you know anything. You don't, and never will.

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
m...
"Joel Corwith" wrote in message
.. .
"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
When your problem child quits his stalking, I'll quit sending it to
his own playpen.

So your word is worthless as well. Quit your asshole posts to rcm and I
won't have to reply.

Two things that have not and will never enter into your world,
egotistical jerk, are commons sense, and any knowledge of
metalworking. Your replies to any subject are worthless, and you know
nothing about any of them. Just crawl back to your toy rocket group
and quit pretending you know anything. You don't, and never will.

Ok, I see you are unwilling to keep your word. I withdraw the offer.

George Willer wrote:

Great!

I read your post carefully looking for bias. You did a good job of
remaining objective!



And the press runs with the lemmings to back up the conservative lies.






LOL

--
Be careful what you pray for, it can happen.