For those that complain about a "liberal press", here's how the
conservatives do a hack job.

J.I.Case Clausen works burned this week. The press reported that the
company is on strike, inuendo that the strikers were responsible
without really saying it.

Facts:
Not on strike, locked out by new holland, who owns and has gutted Case
in the short time they have controlled it.

The Clausen works was first on the closing list after new holland
bought it, it has been closed for two years. Case employment in this
area is now less than 600 people, down from 3400 in two plants in the
years before ronald the senile.

The only people that have been in the Clausen works for the last eight
months are demolition crews, complete with cutting torches.

No mention was made that in the last 25 years there have been no major
labor problems in this area, but since new holland bought it, nothing
but labor problems.

Nor was it mentioned that the work once done in the Clausen works is
now being done in Europe, with the expected lower quality standards
and higher costs.

They also failed to note that the transmission plant is now being
manned by that lowest of life forms, SCABS.

So much for the bull**** about a "liberal press". When truth is
really slaughtered, the conservatives do a much better job. ****ing
liars.

Another American company, more than 150 years old bites the dust, and
the conservatives think it's just hunky dory.

The "land of opportunity" seems to mean opportunity for european and
other overseas firms to rape and raid, then cry when we try to do
something about it. Time to slam the damn gates and block out all
imports without vey, very heavy duties. The US was not made to be a
dumping ground for ****ty scabby companies in other countries. We
have no friends among european countries, only profiteering *******s
that can't see any further than their own useless interests.

And the press runs with the lemmings to back up the conservative lies.

Great!

I read your post carefully looking for bias. You did a good job of
remaining objective!

George Willer

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
For those that complain about a "liberal press", here's how the
conservatives do a hack job.

J.I.Case Clausen works burned this week. The press reported that the
company is on strike, inuendo that the strikers were responsible
without really saying it.

Facts:
Not on strike, locked out by new holland, who owns and has gutted Case
in the short time they have controlled it.

The Clausen works was first on the closing list after new holland
bought it, it has been closed for two years. Case employment in this
area is now less than 600 people, down from 3400 in two plants in the
years before ronald the senile.

The only people that have been in the Clausen works for the last eight
months are demolition crews, complete with cutting torches.

No mention was made that in the last 25 years there have been no major
labor problems in this area, but since new holland bought it, nothing
but labor problems.

Nor was it mentioned that the work once done in the Clausen works is
now being done in Europe, with the expected lower quality standards
and higher costs.

They also failed to note that the transmission plant is now being
manned by that lowest of life forms, SCABS.

So much for the bull**** about a "liberal press". When truth is
really slaughtered, the conservatives do a much better job. ****ing
liars.

Another American company, more than 150 years old bites the dust, and
the conservatives think it's just hunky dory.

The "land of opportunity" seems to mean opportunity for european and
other overseas firms to rape and raid, then cry when we try to do
something about it. Time to slam the damn gates and block out all
imports without vey, very heavy duties. The US was not made to be a
dumping ground for ****ty scabby companies in other countries. We
have no friends among european countries, only profiteering *******s
that can't see any further than their own useless interests.

And the press runs with the lemmings to back up the conservative lies.

Lennie the Lurker wrote in article
. ..
For those that complain about a "liberal press", here's how the
conservatives do a hack job.

J.I.Case Clausen works burned this week. The press reported that the
company is on strike, inuendo that the strikers were responsible
without really saying it.

Facts:
Not on strike, locked out by new holland, who owns and has gutted Case
in the short time they have controlled it.

The Clausen works was first on the closing list after new holland
bought it, it has been closed for two years. Case employment in this
area is now less than 600 people, down from 3400 in two plants in the
years before ronald the senile.

The only people that have been in the Clausen works for the last eight
months are demolition crews, complete with cutting torches.

No mention was made that in the last 25 years there have been no major
labor problems in this area, but since new holland bought it, nothing
but labor problems.

Nor was it mentioned that the work once done in the Clausen works is
now being done in Europe, with the expected lower quality standards
and higher costs.

They also failed to note that the transmission plant is now being
manned by that lowest of life forms, SCABS.

So much for the bull**** about a "liberal press". When truth is
really slaughtered, the conservatives do a much better job. ****ing
liars.

Another American company, more than 150 years old bites the dust, and
the conservatives think it's just hunky dory.

The "land of opportunity" seems to mean opportunity for european and
other overseas firms to rape and raid, then cry when we try to do
something about it. Time to slam the damn gates and block out all
imports without vey, very heavy duties. The US was not made to be a
dumping ground for ****ty scabby companies in other countries. We
have no friends among european countries, only profiteering *******s
that can't see any further than their own useless interests.

And the press runs with the lemmings to back up the conservative lies.



Geez.....

It ALMOST sounds like Dan Rather is working for FOX these days........

SNIP
The "land of opportunity" seems to mean opportunity for european and
other overseas firms to rape and raid, then cry when we try to do
something about it. Time to slam the damn gates and block out all
imports without vey, very heavy duties. The US was not made to be a
dumping ground for ****ty scabby companies in other countries. We
have no friends among european countries, only profiteering *******s
that can't see any further than their own useless interests.

And the press runs with the lemmings to back up the conservative lies.

....and if the import police were to tour your house, how much of YOUR stuff
is imports? Laws will NEVER be passed to limit imports, it has to come from
a public awareness that their money is going away rather than paying their
neighbor's wages and strengthening American companies. American companies
have a hard time competing when they have to drag greedy unions that don't
have a clue how to be anything but adversarial. Sorry, but when the union
says that I have to pay a floor sweeper or a button pusher $20 / hr plus
benies, they are DESTROYING American manufacturing more that the plant
closers and importers.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
SNIP
The "land of opportunity" seems to mean opportunity for european and
other overseas firms to rape and raid, then cry when we try to do
something about it. Time to slam the damn gates and block out all
imports without vey, very heavy duties. The US was not made to be a
dumping ground for ****ty scabby companies in other countries. We
have no friends among european countries, only profiteering *******s
that can't see any further than their own useless interests.

And the press runs with the lemmings to back up the conservative lies.

...and if the import police were to tour your house, how much of YOUR
stuff
is imports? Laws will NEVER be passed to limit imports, it has to come
from
a public awareness that their money is going away rather than paying their
neighbor's wages and strengthening American companies. American companies
have a hard time competing when they have to drag greedy unions that don't
have a clue how to be anything but adversarial. Sorry, but when the union
says that I have to pay a floor sweeper or a button pusher $20 / hr plus
benies, they are DESTROYING American manufacturing more that the plant
closers and importers.

Ask Lennie the Lurker aka aka Richard A. Buege aka Dick
the Hypocrite what brand of mini-mill he owns. He's posted about it here
plenty-o times.

Not to mention he's criticized gunner for off topic posts such as this one.
He even claims to have plonked gunner because of it.

Did you see his pathetic attempt to use his daughter's unfortunate plight to
further his political claims? Some father.

You could even ask him about the corporation he claims to hate though he
worked there the many years and is collecting retirement from.

At least THAT would have metalworking content.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...he+Lurker% 22

Tom Gardner wrote:
SNIP
The "land of opportunity" seems to mean opportunity for european and
other overseas firms to rape and raid, then cry when we try to do
something about it. Time to slam the damn gates and block out all
imports without vey, very heavy duties. The US was not made to be a
dumping ground for ****ty scabby companies in other countries. We
have no friends among european countries, only profiteering *******s
that can't see any further than their own useless interests.

And the press runs with the lemmings to back up the conservative
lies.

...and if the import police were to tour your house, how much of YOUR
stuff is imports? Laws will NEVER be passed to limit imports, it has
to come from a public awareness that their money is going away rather
than paying their neighbor's wages and strengthening American
companies. American companies have a hard time competing when they
have to drag greedy unions that don't have a clue how to be anything
but adversarial. Sorry, but when the union says that I have to pay a
floor sweeper or a button pusher $20 / hr plus benies, they are
DESTROYING American manufacturing more that the plant closers and
importers.

It never bloody fail!.
Get a discussion going about the ills of North America (ya - I am including
Canada) and some wag blames it all on the unions.
Did you ever stop to think about why unions became so popular?
I will give you a hint; think slave wages and doubled prices down at the
company store. The greed that led to the union movement is the same greed
that is now gutting our manufacturing sector - outsourcing - an effective
end-run around the workers.
As far as import 'laws' globalization, as promoted by the good old USA, is
mainly responsible for the outsourcing of *your* jobs and the continuing
distruction of local economies.
When was the last time you saw a promotional campaign advocating "Buy
American" sponsored by local/state/federal government?
As I understand it (here in Canada) that sort of government involvement is
not permitted by NAFTA.
Your take in the USA?
That $20 per hour job puts a lot of dollars into the local economy.
What does a burger flipper at minimum wage contribute?
The faulty thinking that rewards employers who squeeze the most from the
unwashed masses is the same as the corporate decision to replace said
workers with offshore 'slaves' who pay no taxes here and buy no goods here.
"Robots don't buy cars" - so where is the market for those 'cheap' goods?
Ah, you say. 'Let them buy into the capitalist system'.
This is the snake swallowing its own tail.
Good advice to those who actually have capital to invest (damned rare!) -
and those folks have long ago figured out that there is no future in
American investments.
The 'third' world is also waking up to the lies inherent in the global
economy fiction.
The **** will hit the fan soon (keep your eyes on Central America for a
backyard view).
The American imperium is in serious trouble. I, for one, would like to see
it succeed in its stated goals - prosperity for all - but this goal seems to
be getting further and further away. Militarism has taken the forefront of
foreign affairs - a bandaid for the USA economy but a terrible decision in
the long run.
I see little hope.
We need an American Ghandi. A man (or woman) with vision, who can rise above
the ridiculous political bickering and actually address the real problems
facing us.

Sorry for the rant (anylisis?) but I really get ticked off when the blame
for a huge and universal problem is placed on the head of the common
working man!

Regards.
Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:29:56 -0600, "Ken Davey"
wrote:


Sorry for the rant (anylisis?) but I really get ticked off when the blame
for a huge and universal problem is placed on the head of the common
working man!

common working man? I thought you were talking about unions?

Gunner



Come shed a tear for Michael Moore-
Though he smirked and lied like a two-bit whore
George Bush has just won another four.
Poor, sad little Michael Moore

Diogenes

Gunner wrote:
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:29:56 -0600, "Ken Davey"
wrote:


Sorry for the rant (anylisis?) but I really get ticked off when the
blame for a huge and universal problem is placed on the head of the
common working man!

common working man? I thought you were talking about unions?

Gunner

One and the same where I come from.
Do you have any comment about the rest of my post?
Regards.
Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message m...
Sorry, but when the union
says that I have to pay a floor sweeper or a button pusher $20 / hr plus
benies, they are DESTROYING American manufacturing more that the plant
closers and importers.

A = B, meaning if you don't pay a man enough to live on, he's doing
himself and his family a favor by moving on to someone that will. He
is not doing himself or his family any favor trying to work for
subsistance wages while the owner spends three months a year in
Bermuda. (Harry Bohn, Deluxe tool in Racine Wisconsin, company now
defunct, thankfully.)

What you don't, and WON'T understand is that for the high wages, you
are expected to have a high output, of high quality. What you would
like to believe is that high productivity and high quality are
available with walmart workers. You want good people, either you pay
for them or put up with the bunch of ringers you WILL get. But then
the days of people working more than a year or two for any one company
are long gone, usually so are the companies, broken from the top
position.

One employer I had, and a good one, had the policy of never asking a
worker to do something he would not do himself, and he asked himself
how much he would want to do that same job, paying accordingly. It's
called being a good man to work for, and they are also things of the
past. There is no such thing left as an employer that cares what he
has to do, as long as it isn't paying a living wage. Employers want,
demand, loyalty, but are shocked to find that it might be expected in
return. When they don't get it, their teeny mentalities can't cope
with it.

In over 25 years, Case never had any labor problems that couldn't be
solved in less than a week, sometimes in a day, to the satisfaction of
both the union and the company. In the few years that the scabsuckers
from the netherlands have had their filthy mitts in the company, new
holland has eliminated any sense of working for a common goal, that of
seeing that the company survives. Their only object from the
beginning was to break Case and move the production overseas, which
they will probably do within the next year.

And if the company you worked for DEMANDED a $5 per hour cut PLUS a
$300 per month increase in insurance contribution, I suppose you'd get
down and suck them for it. WHich is typical of scabs.

Lennie the Lurker wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
m...
Sorry, but when the union
says that I have to pay a floor sweeper or a button pusher $20 / hr
plus benies, they are DESTROYING American manufacturing more that
the plant closers and importers.

A = B, meaning if you don't pay a man enough to live on, he's doing
himself and his family a favor by moving on to someone that will. He
is not doing himself or his family any favor trying to work for
subsistance wages while the owner spends three months a year in
Bermuda. (Harry Bohn, Deluxe tool in Racine Wisconsin, company now
defunct, thankfully.)

What you don't, and WON'T understand is that for the high wages, you
are expected to have a high output, of high quality. What you would
like to believe is that high productivity and high quality are
available with walmart workers. You want good people, either you pay
for them or put up with the bunch of ringers you WILL get. But then
the days of people working more than a year or two for any one company
are long gone, usually so are the companies, broken from the top
position.

One employer I had, and a good one, had the policy of never asking a
worker to do something he would not do himself, and he asked himself
how much he would want to do that same job, paying accordingly. It's
called being a good man to work for, and they are also things of the
past. There is no such thing left as an employer that cares what he
has to do, as long as it isn't paying a living wage. Employers want,
demand, loyalty, but are shocked to find that it might be expected in
return. When they don't get it, their teeny mentalities can't cope
with it.

In over 25 years, Case never had any labor problems that couldn't be
solved in less than a week, sometimes in a day, to the satisfaction of
both the union and the company. In the few years that the scabsuckers
from the netherlands have had their filthy mitts in the company, new
holland has eliminated any sense of working for a common goal, that of
seeing that the company survives. Their only object from the
beginning was to break Case and move the production overseas, which
they will probably do within the next year.

And if the company you worked for DEMANDED a $5 per hour cut PLUS a
$300 per month increase in insurance contribution, I suppose you'd get
down and suck them for it. WHich is typical of scabs.
Well said Lennie.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:58:03 -0600, "Ken Davey"
wrote:


Gunner

One and the same where I come from.
Do you have any comment about the rest of my post?
Regards.
Ken.

One has to ignore gummer, he lives in northern lalaland. Don't
expect any more sense out of him than you would any other kkkalifornee
nutcake. When I left whackyland in 1963, 50000 people per day were
also showing good sense. But they still attract 99.999% of the worlds
nutcases.

e wrote:
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:58:03 -0600, "Ken Davey"
wrote:


Gunner

One and the same where I come from.
Do you have any comment about the rest of my post?
Regards.
Ken.

One has to ignore gummer, he lives in northern lalaland. Don't
expect any more sense out of him than you would any other kkkalifornee
nutcake. When I left whackyland in 1963, 50000 people per day were
also showing good sense. But they still attract 99.999% of the worlds
nutcases.

I do have better expectations of Gunner.
He has shown some ability to think in the past and I have hope for his
future.
He has been through a lot of **** and some of that experience has begun to
color his thinking. I believe that he is not as much of a 'redneck
conservative' as he makes out. Be that as it may - anyone who gives as much
time and good advise as Gunner does on RCM can't be all that bad and
certinly cannot be dismissed by associating him with the word 'nutcase'
even when that is what he seems to be in the heat of many moments.
And BTW - Most Canadians equate my province (British Columbia) with
California. Their slang expression of choice is "lotus Eaters".
We feel (know) our way is the 'right' way.
Regards.
Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:58:03 -0600, "Ken Davey"
wrote:

Gunner wrote:
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:29:56 -0600, "Ken Davey"
wrote:


Sorry for the rant (anylisis?) but I really get ticked off when the
blame for a huge and universal problem is placed on the head of the
common working man!

common working man? I thought you were talking about unions?

Gunner

One and the same where I come from.

Im certainly glad I dont live there.

Do you have any comment about the rest of my post?

My eyes sorta glazed over about the time you mentioned American
Imperium and I lost interest.

Gunner

Regards.
Ken.



Come shed a tear for Michael Moore-
Though he smirked and lied like a two-bit whore
George Bush has just won another four.
Poor, sad little Michael Moore

Diogenes

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:01:55 -0600, "Ken Davey"
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:58:03 -0600, "Ken Davey"
wrote:


Gunner

One and the same where I come from.
Do you have any comment about the rest of my post?
Regards.
Ken.

One has to ignore gummer, he lives in northern lalaland. Don't
expect any more sense out of him than you would any other kkkalifornee
nutcake. When I left whackyland in 1963, 50000 people per day were
also showing good sense. But they still attract 99.999% of the worlds
nutcases.

I do have better expectations of Gunner.
He has shown some ability to think in the past and I have hope for his
future.
He has been through a lot of **** and some of that experience has begun to
color his thinking. I believe that he is not as much of a 'redneck
conservative' as he makes out. Be that as it may - anyone who gives as much
time and good advise as Gunner does on RCM can't be all that bad and
certinly cannot be dismissed by associating him with the word 'nutcase'
even when that is what he seems to be in the heat of many moments.
And BTW - Most Canadians equate my province (British Columbia) with
California. Their slang expression of choice is "lotus Eaters".
We feel (know) our way is the 'right' way.
Regards.
Ken.

Leslie the Looser tends to forget that California is a very large
state with the Fruits and Flakes largely concentrated in the 6 urban
areas, while the rest of the state is mostly conservative or
libertarian in outlook.

But then..Richard tends to forget a lot of things....his Depends for
one..

Union membership at one time comprised around 58% of the American
workforce. Its now down around 13%. At the time the unions were
needed, there were few labor laws protecting the worker. Since that
time, labor laws have been enacted that protect the worker in large
part. The labor unions were indeed responsible for fostering these
laws and kudos to them for it.

However..the good work of the Unions is running on its own, and the
corruption, malfeasence and political stances of the Unions has been
their own downfall. And since the Unions of today, are not operating
on the best interests of its members, but on the best interests of its
managment, its time for them to go away.
Btw..the largest union membership in the US, is Government workers.


Gunner



Come shed a tear for Michael Moore-
Though he smirked and lied like a two-bit whore
George Bush has just won another four.
Poor, sad little Michael Moore

Diogenes

Gunner wrote:
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:01:55 -0600, "Ken Davey"
wrote:

e wrote:
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:58:03 -0600, "Ken Davey"
wrote:


Gunner

One and the same where I come from.
Do you have any comment about the rest of my post?
Regards.
Ken.

One has to ignore gummer, he lives in northern lalaland. Don't
expect any more sense out of him than you would any other
kkkalifornee nutcake. When I left whackyland in 1963, 50000 people
per day were also showing good sense. But they still attract
99.999% of the worlds nutcases.

I do have better expectations of Gunner.
He has shown some ability to think in the past and I have hope for
his future.
He has been through a lot of **** and some of that experience has
begun to color his thinking. I believe that he is not as much of a
'redneck conservative' as he makes out. Be that as it may - anyone
who gives as much time and good advise as Gunner does on RCM can't
be all that bad and certinly cannot be dismissed by associating him
with the word 'nutcase' even when that is what he seems to be in
the heat of many moments. And BTW - Most Canadians equate my
province (British Columbia) with California. Their slang expression
of choice is "lotus Eaters". We feel (know) our way is the 'right'
way. Regards.
Ken.

Leslie the Looser tends to forget that California is a very large
state with the Fruits and Flakes largely concentrated in the 6 urban
areas, while the rest of the state is mostly conservative or
libertarian in outlook.

But then..Richard tends to forget a lot of things....his Depends for
one..

Union membership at one time comprised around 58% of the American
workforce. Its now down around 13%. At the time the unions were
needed, there were few labor laws protecting the worker. Since that
time, labor laws have been enacted that protect the worker in large
part. The labor unions were indeed responsible for fostering these
laws and kudos to them for it.

However..the good work of the Unions is running on its own, and the
corruption, malfeasence and political stances of the Unions has been
their own downfall. And since the Unions of today, are not operating
on the best interests of its members, but on the best interests of its
managment, its time for them to go away.
Btw..the largest union membership in the US, is Government workers.


Gunner

A general statement about unions outliving their usefilness and no longer
living up to their originally stated purpose is simply not true. To be sure
there are some that have 'forgotten' their roots and now exist solely as
self-prepetuating parasites.
I was, up until my retirement, a member and activist in the largest union in
Canada - namely the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE).
This union gave a remarkable amount of autonomy to its locals and only
demanded a 'tow-the-line' mentality on issues that reflected the common
good - both of the union membership and the people we served.
Sometimes I agreed with the direction of the union and sometimes I didn't.
When I didn't I voiced my concern - and was listened to and at times I was
able to change the direction..
The day of the union is not past. In fact an organized voice is becomming
more essential to the well-being of wage earners as time and 'supply-side'
economics are proving. How many abuses do you have to hear about - unpaid
hours, fired for being pregnant, dangerous conditions, fired for complaining
about or pointing out hazardous conditions, sexual harassment, racial
discrimination, outright slave labour conditions - and these are just a
sample from the big employers. The small 'sweat shop' operations go
un-noticed. The government and their myriad inspectors are worse than the
unions gone bad.
This could go on and on.
There are no absolutes to this. No convenient black-and-white decisions.
Nature of the beast.
Regards.
Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

I'm just late in the trend but I have had to eliminate 7 jobs in the past
year. I now buy those parts that I use to make from a firm in WI. They can
make it and ship it cheaper than My crew can. Whose fault? Mine! I
couldn't come up with the 5 million to buy automated equipment that produces
100 times my need. The union wanted and received raises so I had to do more
automating and outsourcing to adjust. The union just doesn't get that the
pie is only so big, they want bigger and bigger pieces so I have to cut it
into fewer and fewer pieces. My goal this next year is to eliminate 15 more
union jobs through automation and outsourcing. I don't need or want to go
off-shore, there are plenty of US firms that have evolved away from the old
union paradigm.


"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:
SNIP
The "land of opportunity" seems to mean opportunity for european and
other overseas firms to rape and raid, then cry when we try to do
something about it. Time to slam the damn gates and block out all
imports without vey, very heavy duties. The US was not made to be a
dumping ground for ****ty scabby companies in other countries. We
have no friends among european countries, only profiteering *******s
that can't see any further than their own useless interests.

And the press runs with the lemmings to back up the conservative
lies.

...and if the import police were to tour your house, how much of YOUR
stuff is imports? Laws will NEVER be passed to limit imports, it has
to come from a public awareness that their money is going away rather
than paying their neighbor's wages and strengthening American
companies. American companies have a hard time competing when they
have to drag greedy unions that don't have a clue how to be anything
but adversarial. Sorry, but when the union says that I have to pay a
floor sweeper or a button pusher $20 / hr plus benies, they are
DESTROYING American manufacturing more that the plant closers and
importers.

It never bloody fail!.
Get a discussion going about the ills of North America (ya - I am
including Canada) and some wag blames it all on the unions.
Did you ever stop to think about why unions became so popular?
I will give you a hint; think slave wages and doubled prices down at the
company store. The greed that led to the union movement is the same greed
that is now gutting our manufacturing sector - outsourcing - an effective
end-run around the workers.
As far as import 'laws' globalization, as promoted by the good old USA, is
mainly responsible for the outsourcing of *your* jobs and the continuing
distruction of local economies.
When was the last time you saw a promotional campaign advocating "Buy
American" sponsored by local/state/federal government?
As I understand it (here in Canada) that sort of government involvement is
not permitted by NAFTA.
Your take in the USA?
That $20 per hour job puts a lot of dollars into the local economy.
What does a burger flipper at minimum wage contribute?
The faulty thinking that rewards employers who squeeze the most from the
unwashed masses is the same as the corporate decision to replace said
workers with offshore 'slaves' who pay no taxes here and buy no goods
here.
"Robots don't buy cars" - so where is the market for those 'cheap' goods?
Ah, you say. 'Let them buy into the capitalist system'.
This is the snake swallowing its own tail.
Good advice to those who actually have capital to invest (damned rare!) -
and those folks have long ago figured out that there is no future in
American investments.
The 'third' world is also waking up to the lies inherent in the global
economy fiction.
The **** will hit the fan soon (keep your eyes on Central America for a
backyard view).
The American imperium is in serious trouble. I, for one, would like to see
it succeed in its stated goals - prosperity for all - but this goal seems
to be getting further and further away. Militarism has taken the forefront
of foreign affairs - a bandaid for the USA economy but a terrible decision
in the long run.
I see little hope.
We need an American Ghandi. A man (or woman) with vision, who can rise
above the ridiculous political bickering and actually address the real
problems facing us.

Sorry for the rant (anylisis?) but I really get ticked off when the blame
for a huge and universal problem is placed on the head of the common
working man!

Regards.
Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

"Joel Corwith" wrote in message .. .

KKKorwith bull**** hacked, as should happen to his balls before he
can reproduce more of the sub-sub-sub species

When you get a few years under your belt, sub junior, maybe your brain
will start to function at the .05% level.

have a nice failure of a life, punk.

(Joelene is one of dem space rangers, plays with toy rockets, ya know.
A nothing doing nothing.)

Pretty typical of Dick's responses. Pure crap and namecalling.

Nice.

Gee, didn't learn what plonk means either, did'cha

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
"Joel Corwith" wrote in message
.. .

KKKorwith bull**** hacked, as should happen to his balls before he
can reproduce more of the sub-sub-sub species

When you get a few years under your belt, sub junior, maybe your brain
will start to function at the .05% level.

have a nice failure of a life, punk.

(Joelene is one of dem space rangers, plays with toy rockets, ya know.
A nothing doing nothing.)

"Ken Davey" wrote in message ...

It never bloody fail!.
Get a discussion going about the ills of North America (ya - I am including
Canada) and some wag blames it all on the unions.

to do otherwise would be to disobey those that do his thinking for
him. He parrots the line that his owners want, facts be damned.


As far as import 'laws' globalization, as promoted by the good old USA, is
mainly responsible for the outsourcing of *your* jobs and the continuing
distruction of local economies.

And which any man with half a brain can plainly see, only those that
stand to profit at the expense of the rest of the country defend it.

Yes, it was the abuse of the company owners that brought unions into
existance, and if the unions ceased to be tomorrow, the company store
would reappear the day after, as would company towns. (For those that
don't understand, as late as the mid 1930's, some companies had
requirements that you lived in company owned housing, and you were
paid in scrip, which nobody else would honor, because the company
wouldn't pay any other store. "Rubberville" in West Racine is a good
example, very narrow streets, houses that are so close to each other
that the city had to grandfather them, they don't meet space
requirements, and most don't meet building codes, even today.) There
are laws to stop the worst abuses, but without unions fighting for
those laws, they wouldn't exist, without unions, those laws would
disappear overnight.

And my original subject was how the conservative press lies. The
conservatives think the press is liberal because they don't lean so
far right that they fall over. By eliminating a few tiny details,
such as demolition crews with cutting torches, they try to insinuate
that the fire was the result of the strike. My own thoughts, it is
more likely that the fire was caused, deliberately, by the company
doing the demolition as a way to save money. Not much needs cutting
now, just scoop it up and dump in hopper car. Which would fall into
the corporate method of thinking nicely. (Sorry, corporate and
thinking don't really fit, do they.)

"Joel Corwith" wrote in message .. .

Crossposting little whore of a queer, go get butt****ed again.

Joelene, tell us about the moon landings, nutcase. You belong to the
flat earth society too?

rec.models.rockets is a good and interesting place to find joelene,
some really hillarious reading. this punk really functions on his
own?

Lennie the Lurker wrote:

"Joel Corwith" wrote in message .. .

Crossposting little whore of a queer, go get butt****ed again.

Not like he'd give _you_ any, dearie... I doubt
anyone _human_ would, you crossposting little
homophobe of a net-stalker....

Joelene, tell us about the moon landings, nutcase. You belong to the
flat earth society too?

rec.models.rockets is a good and interesting place to find joelene,
some really hillarious reading. this punk really functions on his
own?

He sure does. I wonder about you though...

-dave w

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...

snip

FWIW, the full moon was yesterday.

Randy

David Weinshenker wrote in message ...

you get your problem child, namely joelene to quit his crossposting,
and you won't see me putting anything here. As long as he crossposts
from the metalworking group to the aviation groups, I'll continue to
add his ****pit to the list. If he doesn't quit, I'll add maybe the
"nose" and the "flonk".

For that matter, the only postings he ever responds to are marked OT,
he has nothing to offer to the metalworking group, and I doubt that
he's ever worked any amount of metal without a computer doing the
thinking for him. Stupid kids with huge egos and big mouths normally
end up with fingers and toes missing, if they're lucky.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message .com...
I'm just late in the trend but I have had to eliminate 7 jobs in the past
year.

And never bothered to think that you also eliminated seven possible
customers.

You're blaming the union for your own inability to keep up, five
million sounds like an awful lot, or is it just your lack of keeping
up as you should have been?

Best chances are that you went to the "bargaining table" with no
intention of bargaining anything, but demanding cuts in wages and
benefits, which seems to be the current fad among those that don't
care. A stable workforce is something you will never have, and you do
not deserve one either.

A hard fact for you to ruminate over, the shop I last worked in, and
most of the others I have talked to are having a hard time finding
people that can do the work, the old skills have been lost. Well,
guess what? This means I can demand any wage I want, and unless they
want to fall further and further behind, they have no choice but to
pay it, which is all to my liking. I am supposed to be retired, not
having to put up with calls almost daily from shops that can't figure
out how to do something that the apprentice would have been expected
to know thirty years ago. To stop that, and I finally found the magic
number, $30 per hour. I don't mind going to look at a job and giving
advice where I can, but I'll be damned if I'm going to do the job
anymore.

Whose fault is it that the people aren't there anymore? Who decided
that it cost too much to train an apprentice? Who decided that
automated machines that can eliminate anything but a mindless drone
was the way to go? Who decided that people are only an expendable
commodity? High turnover keeps wages low, it also fails to keep
quality standards as they once were when the value of an experienced
employee was recognized. In todays world, not only are the employees
expendable, so is the employer. That is how it should be, justice has
to be blind, and applicable to both sides equally.

Loyalty? Thing of the past, by your own hand.

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
David Weinshenker wrote in message
...

you get your problem child, namely joelene to quit his crossposting,
and you won't see me putting anything here. As long as he crossposts
from the metalworking group to the aviation groups, I'll continue to
add his ****pit to the list. If he doesn't quit, I'll add maybe the
"nose" and the "flonk".

For that matter, the only postings he ever responds to are marked OT,
he has nothing to offer to the metalworking group, and I doubt that
he's ever worked any amount of metal without a computer doing the
thinking for him. Stupid kids with huge egos and big mouths normally
end up with fingers and toes missing, if they're lucky.

Poor Dick the hypocrite. Cross posting is only OK for him, not others.
Posting political blather to metalworking is OK for him, not others.
Starting OT posts is OK for him, not others. Keep posting, your rantings
can only make me look better.

Did you or did you not purchase and post about a Chinese manufactured
mini-mill.

,...and say, which one of us raised a drug addict?

Lennie the Lurker wrote:

David Weinshenker wrote in message ...

you get your problem child,

Hey.... he's actually one of the
more reasonable r.m.r. posters...
you want "problem child", try Dave
Grayvis and his invisible friend,
"Brian Teeling".

Joel, what did you say over in
the metalworking group that was
so unreasonable?

As long as he crossposts
from the metalworking group
to the aviation groups

You say that like it's some kinda nasty
awful thing... are you gonna hate me now
'cause this is posted to the rocket and
metal groups, or is there some particular
feud between "metalworking" and "aviation"?

-dave w

Ok, have a seat...

And never bothered to think that you also eliminated seven possible
customers.
You're blaming the union for your own inability to keep up, five
million sounds like an awful lot, or is it just your lack of keeping
up as you should have been?
*********************************************
Imagine hardwood blocks. I bring in a 12,000 board-feet truckload of
surfaced kiln-dried Beech. I rip it to width on a 20 hp power-feed rip saw.
Run the rips through a 20 hp moulding machine. Cross-cut the mouldings on a
10 hp hydraulic cross-cut saw that cycles faster than you can watch. My
cost to make the block: $0.78 (If the guys feel like working)

My supplier has a load of logs delivered to his mill from his forest. The
logs are sawn and dried then the boards go into the 100,000 sq-ft dimention
mill where a computer scans every square millimeter of every board. The
computer then determines the best mix of the 3,000 different products to cut
from each board on the fly as the board is flying into the automatic
optimizing saws that yields product from every square millimeter of each
board leaving only knots and sawdust that is used to power and heat the
mill. My cost per delivered block: $0.47 EVERY TIME, ON TIME!!!
****************************************


Best chances are that you went to the "bargaining table" with no
intention of bargaining anything, but demanding cuts in wages and
benefits, which seems to be the current fad among those that don't
care. A stable workforce is something you will never have, and you do
not deserve one either.
*****************************************
Actually, I proposed a raise that was higher than the union hoped for. As
my average employee has been there for over 12 years. But, it's very
difficult to hire people in the inner-city that have any work ethic. The
new ones think they are owed and the union is there to protect them from
loosing their (my) jobs from being drunk, hung-over, not coming to work and
goofing-off. I WON'T micromanage adults to make sure they are working every
second, I can't. And the Steelworker's union's philosophy is just fire them
and constantly go through the expence of training new ones. They just want
the dues!
**********************************************



A hard fact for you to ruminate over, the shop I last worked in, and
most of the others I have talked to are having a hard time finding
people that can do the work, the old skills have been lost. Well,
guess what? This means I can demand any wage I want, and unless they
want to fall further and further behind, they have no choice but to
pay it, which is all to my liking. I am supposed to be retired, not
having to put up with calls almost daily from shops that can't figure
out how to do something that the apprentice would have been expected
to know thirty years ago. To stop that, and I finally found the magic
number, $30 per hour. I don't mind going to look at a job and giving
advice where I can, but I'll be damned if I'm going to do the job
anymore.
**************************************************
You have a nitche and skills and a work ethic, today that is rare with the
18-30 age range. I sence you have never been on the other side of the coin
and have "Union Forever" blood in you're veins. I know nothing about how
big-business works but every small business has similar challenges. I'll
send you a pair of MY shoes and MY 30 or so hats for a week or two...then
talk! No, I really don't lay awake nights figuring out ways to screw my
employees, I just sometimes wish that they would meet me half way more
often. The union is not much more than an annoyance but what kills my is
they just don't have to be. There's too much "Something-For-Nothing"
mentality that just goes against my grain. They protect the worst
productive employee and prevent me from providing incentives to the really
good ones...go figure.
*******************************************


Whose fault is it that the people aren't there anymore? Who decided
that it cost too much to train an apprentice? Who decided that
automated machines that can eliminate anything but a mindless drone
was the way to go? Who decided that people are only an expendable
commodity? High turnover keeps wages low, it also fails to keep
quality standards as they once were when the value of an experienced
employee was recognized. In todays world, not only are the employees
expendable, so is the employer. That is how it should be, justice has
to be blind, and applicable to both sides equally.

Loyalty? Thing of the past, by your own hand.

************************************************** *****

I'll go tell that to Violet who has been working for my family for 65 years,
she started when she was 14 for my grandfather and her daughter (30 yrs.) is
my production manager.

You have made a bunch of very wrong assumptions. If I don't automate and
outsource I'll be out of business and then ALL my employees are out. I need
to profitable in order to support my extended employee family, but I can't
be a "Social Service" to slackers hiding behind union skirts. The worst is
that the union prevents me from rewarding good employees and putting the
right people in their most productive job due to seniority thus everyone
suffers. The Steelworkers do NOTHING for my employees at all but God help
us all is their check were ever late. The Unions had their time and were
important but that time is long gone. Now the unions are just the last
vestiges of organized crime and the Mafia. The just tap into a revenue
stream and suck!!! Look at how the Japanese unions work, their goal is to
make their company the best in their industry and everyone benefits. My
goal is to strip down non-profitable operations and people and the remaining
people will have better wages and benies.
***************************************

"Tom Gardner" wrote

You have made a bunch of very wrong assumptions.


Tom, you've made the error of discussing something with Lennie.... AKA
Lennie the Luddite, Lennie the Loser, and so forth. Lennie's last forward
looking thought was sometime in 1957.... ask him what he thinks about CNC
equipment sometime. It's pretty entertaining.

Mark

"Joel Corwith" wrote in message .. .


Did you or did you not purchase and post about a Chinese manufactured
mini-mill.

Six of my twenty seven machines are imports, asswipe. Guess that
kinda leaves you with nothing to brag about. Do you own ANY? Didn't
think so.

,...and say, which one of us raised a drug addict?

Your parents.

Have a beer last night, LUSH? One beer puts you more than 10000% over
my last 40 years.

By the way joelene, they can farm out and send offshore as many jobs
as they want, my working years are over, but yours aren't. But you
out of work wouldn't be any loss anyhow, it might contribute to the
extinction of your family line, and that can only be a good thing.

David Weinshenker wrote in message ...


You say that like it's some kinda nasty
awful thing... are you gonna hate me now
'cause this is posted to the rocket and
metal groups, or is there some particular
feud between "metalworking" and "aviation"?

Doesn't bother me in the slightest, RMR is his playpen. The only
things I've posted in the aviation groups in a while has been
metalworking advice in the homebuilt group, and the third anniversary
of my last flight in the soaring group. $400 in a single weekend is
the reason, if anyone wants to know why.

joelene is only trying to stir up trouble in the aviation groups, and
I've already apologized for not seeing his crossposting and answering
without trimming the groups. He's acting like a snot nosed little
spoiled brat without a brain, and come to think of it, that's him.

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
"Joel Corwith" wrote in message
.. .


Did you or did you not purchase and post about a Chinese manufactured
mini-mill.

Six of my twenty seven machines are imports, asswipe. Guess that
kinda leaves you with nothing to brag about. Do you own ANY? Didn't
think so.

So you do support exporting jobs. That's great. It's even funnier that you
brag about all the machines you own and rag on sailplane owners for the
money they spent. HYPOCRITE.


,...and say, which one of us raised a drug addict?

Your parents.

So YOUR daughter isn't the druggie you posted about? Which is it hypocrite?


Have a beer last night, LUSH? One beer puts you more than 10000% over
my last 40 years.

Bad guess angry old fart. Don't drink don't smoke. You MUST be the proud
pappa.

Oh, is this because your FATHER was a lush? Did he just beat you or
sexually assault you as well?


By the way joelene, they can farm out and send offshore as many jobs
as they want, my working years are over, but yours aren't. But you
out of work wouldn't be any loss anyhow, it might contribute to the
extinction of your family line, and that can only be a good thing.

Wow, what a snappy come back. Typical of your worthless responses.

I see you can't even keep your word.

"M" mark@maxmachinedotcom wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote

You have made a bunch of very wrong assumptions.


Tom, you've made the error of discussing something with Lennie.... AKA
Lennie the Luddite, Lennie the Loser, and so forth. Lennie's last forward
looking thought was sometime in 1957.... ask him what he thinks about CNC
equipment sometime. It's pretty entertaining.

Lemmie guess, the job can be performed by the $20/hour broom pusher?


Mark

Well, my experience so far is that Joel has generally (maybe always) been a
polite, civilized, helpful poster.

OTOH, Lennie shows up here for the sole purpose of name-calling. I'd call
him trailer-trash but wouldn't want to insult the good folks of the sugar
motors. :^)

Meanwhile....plonk.

--
....The Bit Eimer NAR 84054 L0
"My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
[remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to email me]
--------------------------------------------------------------


"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
"Joel Corwith" wrote in message
.. .

Crossposting little whore of a queer, go get butt****ed again.

Joelene, tell us about the moon landings, nutcase. You belong to the
flat earth society too?

rec.models.rockets is a good and interesting place to find joelene,
some really hillarious reading. this punk really functions on his
own?

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:39:49 -0700, "bit eimer"
wrote:



Meanwhile....plonk.

And you see how much good it did you.

joelene is the one that's attempting to be a stalker, posting his foul
mind in the metalworking groups, the crossposting into two aviation
groups, hoping to troll up some support. The aviation groups don't
really care, they know I've written them off as a group of people, as
a group of activities I dont' really care to associate with, and
haven't for three years now. (Actually, aviation is only a rich mans
game, nothing that needs support from anyone else.)

Minds like his should be blown, preferably with something 20 mm or
bigger.

You quit responding, convince your haploid problem child to stay in
his playpen, or ****pit, I really don't care, and you won't see me.
As long as he continues his infantile game, I'll spread it around.
He's your problem, just keep him at home. He isn't a metalworker,
he's a butcher that's going to lose fingers to his stupid practices,
not that anyone should care, no loss if he loses his head.

I just went over to the metalworking group and read what I could find of the
original thread. My was that entertaining...

And I thought RMR was dysfunctional.
"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
"Joel Corwith" wrote in message
.. .

Crossposting little whore of a queer, go get butt****ed again.

Joelene, tell us about the moon landings, nutcase. You belong to the
flat earth society too?

rec.models.rockets is a good and interesting place to find joelene,
some really hillarious reading. this punk really functions on his
own?

wrote:
He isn't a metalworker, he's a butcher

Is that supposed to be a reference to his
question of using a router to cut aluminum?

Dude, that's nothing.

I've carved aluminum with a Rotozip drywall bit
in a hand-held Makita die grinder... it takes a
steady grip, and it's not quite as easy as doing
it with thin birch-ply, G-10 fiberglass laminate,
or phenolic airframe tubing (on which materials
this is my preferred technique for hand-shaping)
but it's certainly feasible!

(Use the 1/8" crosshatch bits for this... the
"spiral saw" bits would undoubtedly be harder
to control, and the 1/4" crosshatch bits tend
to chatter and break when used freehand.)

-dave w

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:26:49 -0800, David Weinshenker
wrote:

wrote:
He isn't a metalworker, he's a butcher

Is that supposed to be a reference to his
question of using a router to cut aluminum?

One, the other is that he usually never posts anything except to "OT"
postings. He might as well state "I know nothing."

Dude, that's nothing.

There is a little difference between a handheld makita, which are
rather weak to begin with, and a heavy duty router. Things can go bad
working metal very rapidly, the difference between a cutter that's
clear and cutting freely and one that's plugged and very dangerous is
only a split second. Once it plugs, and aluminum plugs cutters all
too easily, and it grabs, the only thing you have time to do is watch
it rip into things you don't want it to.

It's always the guy that says he's being careful, "it won't happen to
me", that shows up in the emergency room with a need for stitches, or
worse. When it does, I have no sympathy for them. Stupidity is it's
own reward.

wrote in message
...
he's a butcher that's going to lose fingers to his stupid practices,
not that anyone should care, no loss if he loses his head.

Dick Dick Dick. Posting under another Alias? What gives?

Why is it you believe someone is only a metalworker if they run a manual
machine lathe.

Even a cubscout making a sheetmetal box is a metalworker.

How many have you helped make such a project.

Didn't think so.

In article ,
e wrote:

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:26:49 -0800, David Weinshenker
wrote:

wrote:
He isn't a metalworker, he's a butcher

Is that supposed to be a reference to his
question of using a router to cut aluminum?

One, the other is that he usually never posts anything except to "OT"
postings. He might as well state "I know nothing."

Dude, that's nothing.

There is a little difference between a handheld makita, which are
rather weak to begin with, and a heavy duty router. Things can go bad
working metal very rapidly, the difference between a cutter that's
clear and cutting freely and one that's plugged and very dangerous is
only a split second. Once it plugs, and aluminum plugs cutters all
too easily, and it grabs, the only thing you have time to do is watch
it rip into things you don't want it to.

It's always the guy that says he's being careful, "it won't happen to
me", that shows up in the emergency room with a need for stitches, or
worse. When it does, I have no sympathy for them. Stupidity is it's
own reward.

Which in no way discusses the methods to avoid it. Go away.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. mail
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
Ebay auction deals and specials. http://tinyurl.com/6wlp8

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:31:05 -0800, Jerry Irvine
wrote:

Which in no way discusses the methods to avoid it. Go away.

Common sense isn't your strong point. It's called the proper tool for
the job, and if you haven't got it, buy it. If you would rather pay
in stitches instead of bucks, have at it, I really don't care.