Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show
something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that hard to build? Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch. -- Steve W. |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 05:58:40 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote: Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that hard to build? Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch. See http://orro.net/2011/02/rifling-machine/ for some ideas. -- cheers, John B. |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On 23/10/2019 10:58, Steve W. wrote:
Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that hard to build? Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch. An interesting question, I remember when I grew up in the US in the 1970s seeing a film several times of a working museum, in Pennsylvania?,Â* that preserved the techniques for making long rifles, Kentucky?, and the main detail was about the rifling technique and mechanics usedÂ* It didn't look high tech just required a bit of work to produce the master screw which governed the rifling cutter. |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
news On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 08:48:33 -0700, Bob La Londe wrote: On 10/23/2019 6:33 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote: "Terry Coombs" wrote in message ... On 10/23/2019 6:34 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote: "Steve W." wrote in message ... ... My first was a 1984 RatShack CoCo2 with ADOS, DSDD drives, and OS7 as well as the "C" compiler - I added an e-prom burner and a composite video output to replace the RF output. Still have it (and the 1984 MC10 portable version). Next was a Sanyo 550 which I upgraded to IBM compatible video - but it could not handle enough RAM for Lotus so I built my first PC XT clone What did you think of the CoCo? I was very impressed with the 6809's powerful instruction set, after struggling to turn a homebrew wire-wrapped 8080 machine into something resembling the IBM PC. The 8080 lacks relative jumps and is more suited to embedded control than general purpose computing with loadable programs. It provided good training in computer hardware design, though. The company was right at the leading edge of high speed memory chip testing so I learned a lot about transmission lines and impedance matching that helped greatly with digital radio design later at Mitre. The memory testers were so fast that there would be three test vectors (address & write data) travelling out within the coax between the machine cabinet and the test head at the wafer prober, and three results coming back. We manually trimmed the cable lengths to match their propagation delays within a few picoseconds, 16ths of an inch at the speed of light. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafer_testing The CoCo had an elegantly simple video controller that I borrowed, in monochrome form, after giving up on Don Lancaster's Cheap Video. Although I didn't use the 6809, studying it helped a lot when I had to design a 16-bit A/D converter board to go in a 68000-based NuBus Macintosh and the Apple Certified Programmer assigned to write its driver quit. I could program UVPROMs on the Automatic Test Equipment we were building at work, I wrote a routine to do it quickly for practice, but the engineers gave me slow, pre-production samples of 2816 flash memory that's pin-compatible with the 2716 UV PROM, and the 6116 CMOS static RAM I was using. http://cva.stanford.edu/classes/cs99...ts/at28c16.pdf |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"David Billington" wrote in message
... On 23/10/2019 10:58, Steve W. wrote: Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that hard to build? Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch. An interesting question, I remember when I grew up in the US in the 1970s seeing a film several times of a working museum, in Pennsylvania?, that preserved the techniques for making long rifles, Kentucky?, and the main detail was about the rifling technique and mechanics used It didn't look high tech just required a bit of work to produce the master screw which governed the rifling cutter. The slow, tedious, manual method of gun making prompted several early inventors to create automation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas...hard_(inventor) Until around 1850 military contracts provided the only advance financing and guaranteed demand to support buying new production machinery. Combined with chronic labor shortages as immigrants headed for the frontier, government rifle purchases were the first driver for America's rapid advances in industrial automation. In 1800 we were a backward third world nation, by the 1850's we were selling world-class rifle production machines to Britain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Precision_Museum |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On 2019-10-23, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message news On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 08:48:33 -0700, Bob La Londe wrote: On 10/23/2019 6:33 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote: "Terry Coombs" wrote in message ... On 10/23/2019 6:34 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote: "Steve W." wrote in message ... ... My first was a 1984 RatShack CoCo2 with ADOS, DSDD drives, and OS7 as well as the "C" compiler Or you sure that wasn't OS-9? The one by Microware which made the MC-6809 into a multi-user multi-tasking system (if you has additional serial ports.) I used it (along with DOS-69 on a SWTP 6809 system, after using the MC-6800 on both an Altair 680b and a SWTP 6800. The latter made it easier to wire-wrap custom interfaces -- and mechanically/electrically compatible with the SWTP 6809). I preferred OS-9, once I had it, but started with SSB'sj DOS-68 and DOS-69 for the 6809 system. - I added an e-prom burner and a composite video output to replace the RF output. Still have it (and the 1984 MC10 portable version). Next was a Sanyo 550 which I upgraded to IBM compatible video - but it could not handle enough RAM for Lotus so I built my first PC XT clone What did you think of the CoCo? They got a lot out of very little hardware. But the bit-banger serial interface was terrible -- toss in some MC-6850 serial port chips and it got a lot more usable for multi-user operation. I was very impressed with the 6809's powerful instruction set, after struggling to turn a homebrew wire-wrapped 8080 machine into something resembling the IBM PC. The 8080 lacks relative jumps and is more suited to embedded control than general purpose computing with loadable programs. It provided good training in computer hardware design, though. the MC-6800 was pretty good already, but Motorola did the right thing with the MC-6809, tossing away backward compatibility -- though they made an assembler which could convert MC-6800 code to MC-6809 code, as long as you stayed clear of things playing with analyzing the stack, as the monitor (EP)ROM did. They (SSB) had a really nice later monitor EPROM -- while the SWTP 6800 used Motorola's MIKBUG as the monitor ROM, and tricky addressing for the early SSB floppy controller card EPROMs to allow it to be interleaved with the I/O address space. The company was right at the leading edge of high speed memory chip testing so I learned a lot about transmission lines and impedance matching that helped greatly with digital radio design later at Mitre. The memory testers were so fast that there would be three test vectors (address & write data) travelling out within the coax between the machine cabinet and the test head at the wafer prober, and three results coming back. We manually trimmed the cable lengths to match their propagation delays within a few picoseconds, 16ths of an inch at the speed of light. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafer_testing The CoCo had an elegantly simple video controller that I borrowed, in monochrome form, after giving up on Don Lancaster's Cheap Video. That controller was another custom Motorola chip, IIRC. Although I didn't use the 6809, studying it helped a lot when I had to design a 16-bit A/D converter board to go in a 68000-based NuBus Macintosh and the Apple Certified Programmer assigned to write its driver quit. I did a lot of assembly language work with the 6800 and 6809. Very little with the 68000, where most of my examples were Sun workstations and servers, with good C compilers. The first system was a COSMOS CMS-16/UNX with v7 unix and a terrible C compiler. Later system were the AT&T Unix-PC/7300/3B1 using the MC-68010 CPU, and the later Suns (before SPARC came into the game) were mostly the MC-68020, and one or two examples of the MC-68030, which I never had. I could program UVPROMs on the Automatic Test Equipment we were building at work, I wrote a routine to do it quickly for practice, but the engineers gave me slow, pre-production samples of 2816 flash memory that's pin-compatible with the 2716 UV PROM, and the 6116 CMOS static RAM I was using. http://cva.stanford.edu/classes/cs99...ts/at28c16.pdf I built a wire-wrapped computer at work using a MC-68B00 and a superset of the SSB monitor ROM. I did the assembly using a Tektronix MDL -- but at first I programmed the EPROMs with a suitcase-mounted manual prom burner (I forget the maker at the moment) until I wire-wrapped a burner for the 2716 to live in the system and expanded the monitor to include burn instructions. I could assemble the code in the MDL, and through a probe which plugged in where the CPU normally lived, I could load the program into a block of memory and then burn the EPROM on that with the MDL acting as the CPU, then switch back to the normal CPU and continue to use it without the help of the MDL. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"Steve W." on Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:18:13 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: At the moment I'm thinking a wooden bench then a single slotted bar and an adjustment pin system at one end to select twist rates. I made a smoothbore .50 a long time ago and it shoots real well considering. The bench and the rest are the easy parts. The big thing is the cutter advance, current thought is a long tapered wedge with a fine thread adjustment. I recall reading about using paper or similar thin shims. But the wedge with fine thread might work too. May not be automatic at first but I'm not running production levels. For real fun, work out how to do a "progressive twist" - where the rifling twist gets higher the further down the barrel the bullet goes. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
... "Steve W." on Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:18:13 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: At the moment I'm thinking a wooden bench then a single slotted bar and an adjustment pin system at one end to select twist rates. I made a smoothbore .50 a long time ago and it shoots real well considering. The bench and the rest are the easy parts. The big thing is the cutter advance, current thought is a long tapered wedge with a fine thread adjustment. I recall reading about using paper or similar thin shims. But the wedge with fine thread might work too. May not be automatic at first but I'm not running production levels. For real fun, work out how to do a "progressive twist" - where the rifling twist gets higher the further down the barrel the bullet goes. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." A lost method to lay out mathematical curves on a long cylinder was discovered scribed on the unfinished wall of a Greek temple when it was excavated. Had they finished the temple the scribed markings would have been polished off. It's similar to the way I learned to lay out the patterns for sheet metal ducting transition pieces, and the full-sized ribs of sailing ships from the carved half model. The desired curve would be drawn at full diameter but compressed mangeably small in length and divided by eqully spaced lines. For example it might be part of a parabola, the integral of a linearly increasing function. https://www.wikihow.com/Draw-a-Parab...Straight-Lines) Next to it the full size outline of the cylinder, a temple column, would be outlined and divided vertically by the same number of lines, spread out evenly. Then with dividers the position of each intersection of the curve and the verticals would be transferred from the small drawing to the full-sized one, and connected by scribing along a thin wooden strip bent to match them, giving the effect of drawing the curve accurately with impossibly huge instruments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entasis The same method could lay out a progressively tightening spiral on the rifling guide, by transferring the heights of the profile of a curve to the guide with a fine chain. A sine bar rifling machine can be built strong enough to drive the cutter directly from a straight or curved template, instead of guiding a pencil to draw the spiral groove on a wooden cylinder. |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:25:55 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote: "Steve W." on Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:18:13 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: At the moment I'm thinking a wooden bench then a single slotted bar and an adjustment pin system at one end to select twist rates. I made a smoothbore .50 a long time ago and it shoots real well considering. The bench and the rest are the easy parts. The big thing is the cutter advance, current thought is a long tapered wedge with a fine thread adjustment. I recall reading about using paper or similar thin shims. But the wedge with fine thread might work too. May not be automatic at first but I'm not running production levels. For real fun, work out how to do a "progressive twist" - where the rifling twist gets higher the further down the barrel the bullet goes. Paper shims under the single cutter were used in the Foxfire book. One groove was done at a time until full depth, then index for the next. I still have all the Foxfire books somewhere. Pete Keillor |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
John B. on Thu, 24 Oct 2019 05:17:46 +0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 05:58:40 -0400, "Steve W." wrote: Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that hard to build? Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch. See http://orro.net/2011/02/rifling-machine/ for some ideas. Once I figured out what he was doing, I saw how clever that method is. And adaptable, as in "one can easily change the twist, without having to make a new guide." The fun part is that now I have an idea for how to put spiral 'carvings' on wooden banister post. Now all I need is the lathe, and the space to set up. Oh, and a banister which needs posts. B-) -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
... John B. on Thu, 24 Oct 2019 05:17:46 +0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 05:58:40 -0400, "Steve W." wrote: Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that hard to build? Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch. See http://orro.net/2011/02/rifling-machine/ for some ideas. Once I figured out what he was doing, I saw how clever that method is. And adaptable, as in "one can easily change the twist, without having to make a new guide." The fun part is that now I have an idea for how to put spiral 'carvings' on wooden banister post. Now all I need is the lathe, and the space to set up. Oh, and a banister which needs posts. B-) -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." Here's the lathe you need: http://ornamentalturning.co.uk/ A Rose Engine can create extremely complex geometric patterns like on the back of a $1 bill. |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On 24/10/2019 02:44, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message ... On 23/10/2019 10:58, Steve W. wrote: Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that hard to build? Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch. An interesting question, I remember when I grew up in the US in the 1970s seeing a film several times of a working museum, in Pennsylvania?, that preserved the techniques for making long rifles, Kentucky?, and the main detail was about the rifling technique and mechanics used It didn't look high tech just required a bit of work to produce the master screw which governed the rifling cutter. The slow, tedious, manual method of gun making prompted several early inventors to create automation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas...hard_(inventor) Similarly in England at the Portmouth blocks mills https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Block_Mills . Until around 1850 military contracts provided the only advance financing and guaranteed demand to support buying new production machinery. Combined with chronic labor shortages as immigrants headed for the frontier, government rifle purchases were the first driver for America's rapid advances in industrial automation. In 1800 we were a backward third world nation, by the 1850's we were selling world-class rifle production machines to Britain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Precision_Museum |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"David Billington" wrote in message
... On 24/10/2019 02:44, Jim Wilkins wrote: "David Billington" wrote in message ... On 23/10/2019 10:58, Steve W. wrote: Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that hard to build? Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch. An interesting question, I remember when I grew up in the US in the 1970s seeing a film several times of a working museum, in Pennsylvania?, that preserved the techniques for making long rifles, Kentucky?, and the main detail was about the rifling technique and mechanics used It didn't look high tech just required a bit of work to produce the master screw which governed the rifling cutter. The slow, tedious, manual method of gun making prompted several early inventors to create automation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas...hard_(inventor) Similarly in England at the Portmouth blocks mills https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Block_Mills . The ideas underlying the Industrial Revolution were originally French, but England and then America provided more productive environments for their development. AFAICT automation was suppressed elsewhere to protect traditional jobs but that may not be the whole answer. An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully answer him. |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
Pete Keillor writes: Paper shims under the single cutter were used in the Foxfire book. One groove was done at a time until full depth, then index for the next. I still have all the Foxfire books somewhere. There's an excellent video out there somewhere -- albeit possibly not on the net -- in which a rifled flintlock is tracked from wraapping & forge welding the barrel to rifling to making the lock and eventual proof fireing of the completed barrel. Details of the rifling process/tooling were pretty clear IIRC. Sadly, I can remember neither the smith's name nor the "restoration village" where he worked for many years. Some grovelling through blacksmithing sites or googling for terms related to restoration or re-enactment villages might turn it up. Not in New England, more like somewhere in Virginia? -- Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada |
#15
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
... Pete Keillor writes: Paper shims under the single cutter were used in the Foxfire book. One groove was done at a time until full depth, then index for the next. I still have all the Foxfire books somewhere. There's an excellent video out there somewhere -- albeit possibly not on the net -- in which a rifled flintlock is tracked from wraapping & forge welding the barrel to rifling to making the lock and eventual proof fireing of the completed barrel. Details of the rifling process/tooling were pretty clear IIRC. Sadly, I can remember neither the smith's name nor the "restoration village" where he worked for many years. Some grovelling through blacksmithing sites or googling for terms related to restoration or re-enactment villages might turn it up. Not in New England, more like somewhere in Virginia? -- Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada Here? https://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/locations/gunsmith |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"Jim Wilkins" writes: "Mike Spencer" wrote in message ... There's an excellent video out there somewhere -- albeit possibly not on the net -- in which a rifled flintlock is tracked from wraapping & forge welding the barrel to rifling to making the lock and eventual proof fireing of the completed barrel. Details of the rifling process/tooling were pretty clear IIRC. Sadly, I can remember neither the smith's name nor the "restoration village" where he worked for many years. Here? https://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/locations/gunsmith Yup. That's the one. Still can't remember the smith's name. I saw the film long enough ago that the guy doing the demo is probably long since retired. I see from a quick gwgle that they substantially curtailed the gunsmith shop a decade ago. Too bad. You don't have to be a pathological firearms freak to appreciate the skill and workmanship and the importance of same in the 18th c. I see that DVDs of The Williamsburg Gunsmith are available, albeit kinda pricey. -- Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada |
#17
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On 10/27/2019 1:29 AM, Mike Spencer wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" writes: "Mike Spencer" wrote in message ... There's an excellent video out there somewhere -- albeit possibly not on the net -- in which a rifled flintlock is tracked from wraapping & forge welding the barrel to rifling to making the lock and eventual proof fireing of the completed barrel. Details of the rifling process/tooling were pretty clear IIRC. Sadly, I can remember neither the smith's name nor the "restoration village" where he worked for many years. Here? https://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/locations/gunsmith Yup. That's the one. Still can't remember the smith's name. I saw the film long enough ago that the guy doing the demo is probably long since retired. I see from a quick gwgle that they substantially curtailed the gunsmith shop a decade ago. Too bad. You don't have to be a pathological firearms freak to appreciate the skill and workmanship and the importance of same in the 18th c. I see that DVDs of The Williamsburg Gunsmith are available, albeit kinda pricey. If you have an Apple device that can retrieve from the Apps store, there's an animation of Robbins & Lawrence Co. Rifling Machine No.1. Made in 1853, the machine is hand operated. You are able to zoom into each "subsystem" of the machine for a better look and description. The demo is making a pistol barrel, but the machine is also capable long barrels too. Steve |
#18
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On 10/27/2019 11:02 AM, shiggins wrote:
On 10/27/2019 1:29 AM, Mike Spencer wrote: "Jim Wilkins" writes: "Mike Spencer" wrote in message ... There's an excellent video out there somewhere -- albeit possibly not on the net -- in which a rifled flintlock is tracked from wraapping & forge welding the barrel to rifling to making the lock and eventual proof fireing of the completed barrel.Â* Details of the rifling process/tooling were pretty clear IIRC. Sadly, I can remember neither the smith's name nor the "restoration village" where he worked for many years. Here? https://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/locations/gunsmith Yup.Â* That's the one. Still can't remember the smith's name.Â* I saw the film long enough ago that the guy doing the demo is probably long since retired. I see from a quick gwgle that they substantially curtailed the gunsmith shop a decade ago.Â* Too bad.Â* You don't have to be a pathological firearms freak to appreciate the skill and workmanship and the importance of same in the 18th c. I seeÂ* that DVDs ofÂ* The Williamsburg Gunsmith are available, albeit kinda pricey. If you have an Apple device that can retrieve from the Apps store, there's an animation of Robbins & Lawrence Co. Rifling Machine No.1. Made in 1853, the machine is hand operated. You are able to zoom into each "subsystem" of the machine for a better look and description.Â* The demo is making a pistol barrel, but the machine is also capable long barrels too. Steve I forgot. The app is "3D Rifling". Searching for "Robbins, et. al. won't find it. Steve |
#19
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:
An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully answer him. One theory: the black death resulted in younger property owners, who could foresee a long life ahead, and weren't inclined to be staid and conservative. So, they innovated. |
#20
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
whit3rd on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:36:59 -0800 (PST)
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote: An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully answer him. One theory: the black death resulted in younger property owners, who could foresee a long life ahead, and weren't inclined to be staid and conservative. So, they innovated. Younger property owners had no more expectation of a long life during the plague years than those they inherited the property from. "Eat, drink, and make Merry, tomorrow we die." A more likely theory: loss of work force allowed/required innovation. You needed more efficient technologies, you couldn't just add more manpower. And, there were fewer "old hands" to say that's not how we've done it." On a side note, the Roman Empire had the technology to make steam engines. But there was no demand, in large part because those who could afford the expense of the machines, saw no need. They could always buy more manpower. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#21
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
... whit3rd on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:36:59 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote: An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully answer him. One theory: the black death resulted in younger property owners, who could foresee a long life ahead, and weren't inclined to be staid and conservative. So, they innovated. Younger property owners had no more expectation of a long life during the plague years than those they inherited the property from. "Eat, drink, and make Merry, tomorrow we die." A more likely theory: loss of work force allowed/required innovation. You needed more efficient technologies, you couldn't just add more manpower. And, there were fewer "old hands" to say that's not how we've done it." On a side note, the Roman Empire had the technology to make steam engines. But there was no demand, in large part because those who could afford the expense of the machines, saw no need. They could always buy more manpower. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." It's claimed that Anthemius, the architect of Hagia Sophia in Istanbul, did build an steam-powered device of some sort, possibly an unbalanced engine. http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/The...gine-1890.ashx Although Savery's engine of 1698 used steam under pressure, the problem of making a strong boiler wasn't solved for another hundred years. |
#22
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"whit3rd" wrote in message
... On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote: An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully answer him. One theory: the black death resulted in younger property owners, who could foresee a long life ahead, and weren't inclined to be staid and conservative. So, they innovated. https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_Pet...Renaissance%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerolamo_Cardano However, great minds in Persia, India and China did not spark similar advances. https://www.britannica.com/biography/al-Khwarizmi I wonder if the difference was cultural attitudes to change. |
#23
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:45:08 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: "whit3rd" wrote in message ... On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote: An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully answer him. One theory: the black death resulted in younger property owners, who could foresee a long life ahead, and weren't inclined to be staid and conservative. So, they innovated. https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_Pet...Renaissance%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerolamo_Cardano However, great minds in Persia, India and China did not spark similar advances. https://www.britannica.com/biography/al-Khwarizmi I wonder if the difference was cultural attitudes to change. Bingo. It is interesting to note that much of the scientific development of The West (specifically England,) was done by Dissenters, those who were not part of the Established Church. Likewise the early Golden Age of the Muslim world had as much to do with non-muslim scholars, and a desire by Muslim potentates to "show off." But that changed in the 12th (??) Century with a judgment that what we would call "science" was not compatible with Islam. It has also been said that one issue which helped hold China back was the Mandate of Heaven. If the Emperor said "do it" it got done. If he said "nope" - it didn't happen. I'm thinking of the expeditions which reached to Madagascar(iirc), but were ended "suddenly", the ships left to rot on the beach. But it is a puzzlement. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#24
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
... "Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:45:08 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: "whit3rd" wrote in message ... On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote: But it is a puzzlement. My personal, unproven opinion is that a critical element is social acceptance of successful and influential people working with their own hands at home. A British expat racing engineer who lives in Spain told me they don't understand at all why he would buy machine tools and materials to make suspension parts etc at home, it Just Isn't Done. Fortunately Brits are allowed, even expected, to be eccentric. https://www.popularwoodworking.com/c...r-a-curiosity/ "Wll, here in Mexico, woodworking as a hobby is practically non existent, mostly because of cultural and as mention economic reasons. Most woodworking here is done by carpenters, and it is viewed a a trade practiced by not very educated people. It used to be that hiring a carpenter was so cheap that well to do people would rather do that than be seen with a hammer in hand." Brazil: "Some societies have historically considered manual labor to be demeaning, in the sense of indicating lower social status. At the extreme, manual labor in those societies was assigned the people of lowest status-slaves. Those who have had the social prestige as well as the political power and economic wherewithal to change those cultural norms, the descendants of the masters, have had little incentive to do so." This mirrors my experience in Germany: "On the economy" means outside the self-contained American society of the military bases, where most troops stayed. I was very much the exception, exploring the towns and countryside as much as possible. "From Glenn's post, it sounds like little has changed since I lived and worked wood in Germany. I bought most of my wood through the on-post craft shop because all I could find on the economy was roughsawn blue spruce (that was in the 80's). My German friends, those who worked with their hands anyway, were mostly into working on thier cars and motorcycles. The only woodworkers I met were pros." |
#25
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 19:10:33 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: "pyotr filipivich" wrote in message .. . "Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:45:08 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: "whit3rd" wrote in message ... On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote: But it is a puzzlement. My personal, unproven opinion is that a critical element is social acceptance of successful and influential people working with their own hands at home. A British expat racing engineer who lives in Spain told me they don't understand at all why he would buy machine tools and materials to make suspension parts etc at home, it Just Isn't Done. Fortunately Brits are allowed, even expected, to be eccentric. https://www.popularwoodworking.com/c...r-a-curiosity/ "Wll, here in Mexico, woodworking as a hobby is practically non existent, mostly because of cultural and as mention economic reasons. Most woodworking here is done by carpenters, and it is viewed a a trade practiced by not very educated people. It used to be that hiring a carpenter was so cheap that well to do people would rather do that than be seen with a hammer in hand." Brazil: "Some societies have historically considered manual labor to be demeaning, in the sense of indicating lower social status. At the extreme, manual labor in those societies was assigned the people of lowest status-slaves. Those who have had the social prestige as well as the political power and economic wherewithal to change those cultural norms, the descendants of the masters, have had little incentive to do so." This mirrors my experience in Germany: "On the economy" means outside the self-contained American society of the military bases, where most troops stayed. I was very much the exception, exploring the towns and countryside as much as possible. "From Glenn's post, it sounds like little has changed since I lived and worked wood in Germany. I bought most of my wood through the on-post craft shop because all I could find on the economy was roughsawn blue spruce (that was in the 80's). My German friends, those who worked with their hands anyway, were mostly into working on thier cars and motorcycles. The only woodworkers I met were pros." There are a whole lot of cultural reasons, as you point out. The difference between the Aristocracy and "Trade" goes way back. And while his Lordship might take up woodturning as a hobby, it was not something "serious". This was prevalent even in the late 1800s: the British boffins would discover a means to make an artificial fibre, dye, "thing", but it would be the Germans who created an industry. Research and the pursuit of Science was a noble thing. Making money from it was just so, so, well, it just wasn't seemly. Which is why so many British aristocratic family had American daughters in law. With the bride came the money to keep the family estates. Anyway, this still doesn't explain how so many Englishmen got wealthy "in trade" making steel, coal, cloth, etc, etc, and other parts of the world didn't. "Culture" explains some of it, but that is a very large tent. The question comes: why did (the English especially) Western Europe get not just the "science" but the technological advances? Starting with gun-powder. The Chinese had it, but firearms never became "big". -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#26
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news "Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 19:10:33 -0500 The question comes: why did (the English especially) Western Europe get not just the "science" but the technological advances? Starting with gun-powder. The Chinese had it, but firearms never became "big". -- pyotr filipivich A good starting point is why the French failed to develop so many of their numerous inventions. The word "sabotage" (wrecking machinery with heavy wooden shoes, Sabots) comes to mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite "...eventually the movement was suppressed with legal and military force." |
#27
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news "Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 19:10:33 -0500 The question comes: why did (the English especially) Western Europe get not just the "science" but the technological advances? Starting with gun-powder. The Chinese had it, but firearms never became "big". -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." https://www.learnchinesehistory.com/...nnons-history/ "Xena" showed pretty good examples of that Chinese artillery, although they couldn't resist adding in an apparent nuke. Western guns (gonnes) were similarly crude in that era and didn't fit the ethic of the heroic knight. |
#28
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:02:24 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote: who worked with their hands anyway, were mostly into working on thier cars and motorcycles. The only woodworkers I met were pros." There are a whole lot of cultural reasons, as you point out. The difference between the Aristocracy and "Trade" goes way back. And while his Lordship might take up woodturning as a hobby, it was not something "serious". This was prevalent even in the late 1800s: the British boffins would discover a means to make an artificial fibre, dye, "thing", but it would be the Germans who created an industry. Research and the pursuit of Science was a noble thing. Making money from it was just so, so, well, it just wasn't seemly. Which is why so many British aristocratic family had American daughters in law. With the bride came the money to keep the family estates. Anyway, this still doesn't explain how so many Englishmen got wealthy "in trade" making steel, coal, cloth, etc, etc, and other parts of the world didn't. "Culture" explains some of it, but that is a very large tent. The question comes: why did (the English especially) Western Europe get not just the "science" but the technological advances? Starting with gun-powder. The Chinese had it, but firearms never became "big". The Brits were very big contributors to science and technology up to the end of the Great War. Radio, medical technology, radar, microwaves, internal combustion engines in new ways and materials workings. There are 83 different thread types in the British inventory..pipe threads, nut and bolt threads, steam and gas threads etc etc. From the Victorian age right through 1918 and the loss of a SIGNIFICANT number of their boffins who got themselves killed in France..many of who left no children to pass along their genes. Those that did..managed to make enough children to die in Dunkirk, El Alamein, the far East and of course..Europe. That has really..really hurt the British gene pool. It left the halt, the lame, the stupid and the moronic alive to breed. And thats largely what makes up the British gene pool today, sadly. It will take another 100 yrs or more to build up good genes. In earlier times..the survivors of English wars were the smart, the quick and the nimble. With the Maxim Gun, came indistriminate slaughter and a hidieous culling of the adventureous. Gunner __ "Poor widdle Wudy...mentally ill, lies constantly, doesnt know who he is, or even what gender "he" is. No more pathetic creature has ever walked the earth. But...he is locked into a mental hospital for the safety of the public. Which is a very good thing." Asun rauhassa, valmistaudun sotaan. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#29
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news "Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 19:10:33 -0500 Anyway, this still doesn't explain how so many Englishmen got wealthy "in trade" making steel, coal, cloth, etc, etc, and other parts of the world didn't. And still don't. How often do you see foreign complaints that some common (to us) item is too heavily taxed to import and not made locally? https://shieldgeo.com/5-countries-wh...rt-a-business/ |
#30
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"Jim Wilkins" on Tue, 5 Nov 2019 17:26:15 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: "pyotr filipivich" wrote in message news "Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 19:10:33 -0500 The question comes: why did (the English especially) Western Europe get not just the "science" but the technological advances? Starting with gun-powder. The Chinese had it, but firearms never became "big". -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." https://www.learnchinesehistory.com/...nnons-history/ "Xena" showed pretty good examples of that Chinese artillery, although they couldn't resist adding in an apparent nuke. Western guns (gonnes) were similarly crude in that era and didn't fit the ethic of the heroic knight. But, once they got the major kinks worked out, musketeers were easier to train than archers. "Quaintly has its own quality." I remember James Burke in his series "Connections" point out that after the Burgundian wars in the mid 15th C, the Swiss pike formation revolutionized warfare, because a pike formation could stop Knights, for a whole lot less. Later, as the handgonnes got more reliable, the "bayonet" was invented, allowing you to outfit a "combined arms" (guns and pikes) for less. Etc, etc. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#31
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"Jim Wilkins" on Fri, 25 Oct 2019 12:54:34
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Similarly in England at the Portmouth blocks mills https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Block_Mills . The ideas underlying the Industrial Revolution were originally French, but England and then America provided more productive environments for their development. AFAICT automation was suppressed elsewhere to protect traditional jobs but that may not be the whole answer. An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully answer him. There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#32
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message ... "Jim Wilkins" on Fri, 25 Oct 2019 12:54:34 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Similarly in England at the Portmouth blocks mills https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Block_Mills . The ideas underlying the Industrial Revolution were originally French, but England and then America provided more productive environments for their development. AFAICT automation was suppressed elsewhere to protect traditional jobs but that may not be the whole answer. An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully answer him. There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." Life is a waterfall. |
#33
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote: "Jim Wilkins" on Fri, 25 Oct 2019 12:54:34 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Similarly in England at the Portmouth blocks mills https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Block_Mills . The ideas underlying the Industrial Revolution were originally French, but England and then America provided more productive environments for their development. AFAICT automation was suppressed elsewhere to protect traditional jobs but that may not be the whole answer. An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully answer him. There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible. I think it is because they embraced change (then found out it gave them power and made tons of money, too.) It probably had something to do with concentration of like-minded people, too. -- There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action. --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
#34
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
... On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich wrote: ... There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible. I think it is because they embraced change (then found out it gave them power and made tons of money, too.) It probably had something to do with concentration of like-minded people, too. Especially these two, and later their apprentices: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah |
#35
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
... "Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich wrote: ... There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible. I brought up the subject of what enables or hinders progress because we are in a golden age right now, and an envious element who hasn't learned how to participate constructively and politicians who seek a larger power base of Miserati whom they can falsely promise to help by punitively taxing success are trying to destroy it. https://www.businessinsider.com/were...erybody-2018-1 "We're in a Golden Age, but can only see darkness ahead." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude |
#36
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:19:45 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich wrote: ... There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible. I think it is because they embraced change (then found out it gave them power and made tons of money, too.) It probably had something to do with concentration of like-minded people, too. Especially these two, and later their apprentices: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah Cool. -- There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action. --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
#37
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
... On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:19:45 -0500, "Jim Wilkins" wrote: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message . .. On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich wrote: ... There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible. I think it is because they embraced change (then found out it gave them power and made tons of money, too.) It probably had something to do with concentration of like-minded people, too. Especially these two, and later their apprentices: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah Cool. The USA had comparably talented inventors but they didn't work together. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Oliver-Evans https://www.britannica.com/biography/Simeon-North https://www.britannica.com/biography...-Miller-Shreve https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fitch |
#38
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 00:00:18 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:19:45 -0500, "Jim Wilkins" wrote: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich wrote: ... There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible. I think it is because they embraced change (then found out it gave them power and made tons of money, too.) It probably had something to do with concentration of like-minded people, too. Especially these two, and later their apprentices: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah Cool. The USA had comparably talented inventors but they didn't work together. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Oliver-Evans https://www.britannica.com/biography/Simeon-North https://www.britannica.com/biography...-Miller-Shreve https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fitch Wow, so much loss for these poor guys! Then fame for Fulton rather than Fitch. That sucks. But we did have some very talented people in the USA. -- There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action. --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
#39
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
Larry Jaques on Sat, 23 Nov 2019
21:37:54 -0800 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Especially these two, and later their apprentices: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah Cool. The USA had comparably talented inventors but they didn't work together. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Oliver-Evans https://www.britannica.com/biography/Simeon-North https://www.britannica.com/biography...-Miller-Shreve https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fitch Wow, so much loss for these poor guys! Then fame for Fulton rather than Fitch. That sucks. But we did have some very talented people in the USA. History is full of guy A inventing / discovering something "first" but guy B is the one who got the publicity. E.G., it is called "America" because the map maker called it after Americo Vespucci, for various reasons. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." |
#40
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
Rifling machine plans
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
... Larry Jaques on Sat, 23 Nov 2019 21:37:54 -0800 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Especially these two, and later their apprentices: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah Cool. The USA had comparably talented inventors but they didn't work together. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Oliver-Evans https://www.britannica.com/biography/Simeon-North https://www.britannica.com/biography...-Miller-Shreve https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fitch Wow, so much loss for these poor guys! Then fame for Fulton rather than Fitch. That sucks. But we did have some very talented people in the USA. History is full of guy A inventing / discovering something "first" but guy B is the one who got the publicity. E.G., it is called "America" because the map maker called it after Americo Vespucci, for various reasons. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone." It's often A, B, C and D tinkering with the idea, then E making it practical after a different advance removes the last stumbling block. Steam transportation required stronger boilers, airplanes needed lightweight engines. In my own experience the Segway required solid-state gyros, and cell phones required A/D converters fast enough to digitize radio frequencies. I was building prototypes with digital storage scope components. |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|