Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old October 23rd 19, 11:58 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Rifling machine plans

Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show
something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that
hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch.
--
Steve W.

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Old October 24th 19, 12:17 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Rifling machine plans

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 05:58:40 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show
something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that
hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch.


See http://orro.net/2011/02/rifling-machine/ for some ideas.
--
cheers,

John B.

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Old October 24th 19, 12:24 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Rifling machine plans

On 23/10/2019 10:58, Steve W. wrote:
Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show
something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that
hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch.


An interesting question, I remember when I grew up in the US in the
1970s seeing a film several times of a working museum, in
Pennsylvania?,¬* that preserved the techniques for making long rifles,
Kentucky?, and the main detail was about the rifling technique and
mechanics used¬* It didn't look high tech just required a bit of work to
produce the master screw which governed the rifling cutter.

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Old October 24th 19, 01:44 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Rifling machine plans

"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 08:48:33 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 10/23/2019 6:33 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
On 10/23/2019 6:34 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message
...

...

My first was a 1984 RatShack CoCo2 with ADOS, DSDD drives, and OS7
as
well as the "C" compiler - I added an e-prom burner and a composite
video output to replace the RF output. Still have it (and the 1984
MC10 portable version).
Next was a Sanyo 550 which I upgraded to IBM compatible video - but
it
could not handle enough RAM for Lotus so I built my first PC XT
clone


What did you think of the CoCo?

I was very impressed with the 6809's powerful instruction set, after
struggling to turn a homebrew wire-wrapped 8080 machine into something
resembling the IBM PC. The 8080 lacks relative jumps and is more
suited to embedded control than general purpose computing with
loadable programs. It provided good training in computer hardware
design, though.

The company was right at the leading edge of high speed memory chip
testing so I learned a lot about transmission lines and impedance
matching that helped greatly with digital radio design later at Mitre.
The memory testers were so fast that there would be three test vectors
(address & write data) travelling out within the coax between the
machine cabinet and the test head at the wafer prober, and three
results coming back. We manually trimmed the cable lengths to match
their propagation delays within a few picoseconds, 16ths of an inch at
the speed of light.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafer_testing

The CoCo had an elegantly simple video controller that I borrowed, in
monochrome form, after giving up on Don Lancaster's Cheap Video.

Although I didn't use the 6809, studying it helped a lot when I had to
design a 16-bit A/D converter board to go in a 68000-based NuBus
Macintosh and the Apple Certified Programmer assigned to write its
driver quit.

I could program UVPROMs on the Automatic Test Equipment we were
building at work, I wrote a routine to do it quickly for practice, but
the engineers gave me slow, pre-production samples of 2816 flash
memory that's pin-compatible with the 2716 UV PROM, and the 6116 CMOS
static RAM I was using.
http://cva.stanford.edu/classes/cs99...ts/at28c16.pdf



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Old October 24th 19, 03:44 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Rifling machine plans

"David Billington" wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2019 10:58, Steve W. wrote:
Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that
show something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't
be that hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from
scratch.


An interesting question, I remember when I grew up in the US in the
1970s seeing a film several times of a working museum, in
Pennsylvania?, that preserved the techniques for making long rifles,
Kentucky?, and the main detail was about the rifling technique and
mechanics used It didn't look high tech just required a bit of work
to produce the master screw which governed the rifling cutter.


The slow, tedious, manual method of gun making prompted several early
inventors to create automation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas...hard_(inventor)

Until around 1850 military contracts provided the only advance
financing and guaranteed demand to support buying new production
machinery. Combined with chronic labor shortages as immigrants headed
for the frontier, government rifle purchases were the first driver for
America's rapid advances in industrial automation. In 1800 we were a
backward third world nation, by the 1850's we were selling world-class
rifle production machines to Britain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Precision_Museum





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Old October 24th 19, 05:09 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Rifling machine plans

On 2019-10-23, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 08:48:33 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 10/23/2019 6:33 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
On 10/23/2019 6:34 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message
...
...

My first was a 1984 RatShack CoCo2 with ADOS, DSDD drives, and OS7
as
well as the "C" compiler


Or you sure that wasn't OS-9? The one by Microware which made
the MC-6809 into a multi-user multi-tasking system (if you has additional
serial ports.)

I used it (along with DOS-69 on a SWTP 6809 system, after using
the MC-6800 on both an Altair 680b and a SWTP 6800. The latter made it
easier to wire-wrap custom interfaces -- and mechanically/electrically
compatible with the SWTP 6809).

I preferred OS-9, once I had it, but started with SSB'sj DOS-68
and DOS-69 for the 6809 system.

- I added an e-prom burner and a composite
video output to replace the RF output. Still have it (and the 1984
MC10 portable version).
Next was a Sanyo 550 which I upgraded to IBM compatible video - but
it
could not handle enough RAM for Lotus so I built my first PC XT
clone


What did you think of the CoCo?


They got a lot out of very little hardware. But the bit-banger
serial interface was terrible -- toss in some MC-6850 serial port chips
and it got a lot more usable for multi-user operation.

I was very impressed with the 6809's powerful instruction set, after
struggling to turn a homebrew wire-wrapped 8080 machine into something
resembling the IBM PC. The 8080 lacks relative jumps and is more
suited to embedded control than general purpose computing with
loadable programs. It provided good training in computer hardware
design, though.


the MC-6800 was pretty good already, but Motorola did the right
thing with the MC-6809, tossing away backward compatibility -- though
they made an assembler which could convert MC-6800 code to MC-6809 code,
as long as you stayed clear of things playing with analyzing the stack,
as the monitor (EP)ROM did. They (SSB) had a really nice later monitor
EPROM -- while the SWTP 6800 used Motorola's MIKBUG as the monitor ROM,
and tricky addressing for the early SSB floppy controller card EPROMs to
allow it to be interleaved with the I/O address space.

The company was right at the leading edge of high speed memory chip
testing so I learned a lot about transmission lines and impedance
matching that helped greatly with digital radio design later at Mitre.
The memory testers were so fast that there would be three test vectors
(address & write data) travelling out within the coax between the
machine cabinet and the test head at the wafer prober, and three
results coming back. We manually trimmed the cable lengths to match
their propagation delays within a few picoseconds, 16ths of an inch at
the speed of light.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafer_testing

The CoCo had an elegantly simple video controller that I borrowed, in
monochrome form, after giving up on Don Lancaster's Cheap Video.


That controller was another custom Motorola chip, IIRC.

Although I didn't use the 6809, studying it helped a lot when I had to
design a 16-bit A/D converter board to go in a 68000-based NuBus
Macintosh and the Apple Certified Programmer assigned to write its
driver quit.


I did a lot of assembly language work with the 6800 and 6809.
Very little with the 68000, where most of my examples were Sun
workstations and servers, with good C compilers. The first system was a
COSMOS CMS-16/UNX with v7 unix and a terrible C compiler. Later system
were the AT&T Unix-PC/7300/3B1 using the MC-68010 CPU, and the later
Suns (before SPARC came into the game) were mostly the MC-68020, and one
or two examples of the MC-68030, which I never had.

I could program UVPROMs on the Automatic Test Equipment we were
building at work, I wrote a routine to do it quickly for practice, but
the engineers gave me slow, pre-production samples of 2816 flash
memory that's pin-compatible with the 2716 UV PROM, and the 6116 CMOS
static RAM I was using.
http://cva.stanford.edu/classes/cs99...ts/at28c16.pdf


I built a wire-wrapped computer at work using a MC-68B00 and a
superset of the SSB monitor ROM. I did the assembly using a Tektronix
MDL -- but at first I programmed the EPROMs with a suitcase-mounted
manual prom burner (I forget the maker at the moment) until I
wire-wrapped a burner for the 2716 to live in the system and expanded
the monitor to include burn instructions. I could assemble the code in
the MDL, and through a probe which plugged in where the CPU normally
lived, I could load the program into a block of memory and then burn the
EPROM on that with the MDL acting as the CPU, then switch back to the
normal CPU and continue to use it without the help of the MDL.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
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Old October 24th 19, 05:25 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Rifling machine plans

"Steve W." on Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:18:13 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


At the moment I'm thinking a wooden bench then a single slotted bar and
an adjustment pin system at one end to select twist rates. I made a
smoothbore .50 a long time ago and it shoots real well considering. The
bench and the rest are the easy parts. The big thing is the cutter
advance, current thought is a long tapered wedge with a fine thread
adjustment.


I recall reading about using paper or similar thin shims. But the
wedge with fine thread might work too.

May not be automatic at first but I'm not running production
levels.


For real fun, work out how to do a "progressive twist" - where the
rifling twist gets higher the further down the barrel the bullet goes.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."
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Old October 24th 19, 02:14 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Rifling machine plans

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Steve W." on Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:18:13 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


At the moment I'm thinking a wooden bench then a single slotted bar
and
an adjustment pin system at one end to select twist rates. I made a
smoothbore .50 a long time ago and it shoots real well considering.
The
bench and the rest are the easy parts. The big thing is the cutter
advance, current thought is a long tapered wedge with a fine thread
adjustment.


I recall reading about using paper or similar thin shims. But the
wedge with fine thread might work too.

May not be automatic at first but I'm not running production
levels.


For real fun, work out how to do a "progressive twist" - where the
rifling twist gets higher the further down the barrel the bullet
goes.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


A lost method to lay out mathematical curves on a long cylinder was
discovered scribed on the unfinished wall of a Greek temple when it
was excavated. Had they finished the temple the scribed markings would
have been polished off. It's similar to the way I learned to lay out
the patterns for sheet metal ducting transition pieces, and the
full-sized ribs of sailing ships from the carved half model.

The desired curve would be drawn at full diameter but compressed
mangeably small in length and divided by eqully spaced lines. For
example it might be part of a parabola, the integral of a linearly
increasing function.
https://www.wikihow.com/Draw-a-Parab...Straight-Lines)
Next to it the full size outline of the cylinder, a temple column,
would be outlined and divided vertically by the same number of lines,
spread out evenly. Then with dividers the position of each
intersection of the curve and the verticals would be transferred from
the small drawing to the full-sized one, and connected by scribing
along a thin wooden strip bent to match them, giving the effect of
drawing the curve accurately with impossibly huge instruments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entasis

The same method could lay out a progressively tightening spiral on the
rifling guide, by transferring the heights of the profile of a curve
to the guide with a fine chain.

A sine bar rifling machine can be built strong enough to drive the
cutter directly from a straight or curved template, instead of guiding
a pencil to draw the spiral groove on a wooden cylinder.


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Old October 24th 19, 02:29 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Rifling machine plans

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:25:55 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

"Steve W." on Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:18:13 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


At the moment I'm thinking a wooden bench then a single slotted bar and
an adjustment pin system at one end to select twist rates. I made a
smoothbore .50 a long time ago and it shoots real well considering. The
bench and the rest are the easy parts. The big thing is the cutter
advance, current thought is a long tapered wedge with a fine thread
adjustment.


I recall reading about using paper or similar thin shims. But the
wedge with fine thread might work too.

May not be automatic at first but I'm not running production
levels.


For real fun, work out how to do a "progressive twist" - where the
rifling twist gets higher the further down the barrel the bullet goes.


Paper shims under the single cutter were used in the Foxfire book. One
groove was done at a time until full depth, then index for the next.
I still have all the Foxfire books somewhere.

Pete Keillor
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Old October 24th 19, 06:10 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 3,093
Default Rifling machine plans

John B. on Thu, 24 Oct 2019 05:17:46 +0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 05:58:40 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show
something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that
hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch.


See http://orro.net/2011/02/rifling-machine/ for some ideas.


Once I figured out what he was doing, I saw how clever that method
is. And adaptable, as in "one can easily change the twist, without
having to make a new guide."
The fun part is that now I have an idea for how to put spiral
'carvings' on wooden banister post. Now all I need is the lathe, and
the space to set up. Oh, and a banister which needs posts. B-)


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


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