Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Rifling machine plans

Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show
something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that
hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch.
--
Steve W.
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Default Rifling machine plans

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 05:58:40 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show
something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that
hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch.


See http://orro.net/2011/02/rifling-machine/ for some ideas.
--
cheers,

John B.

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On 23/10/2019 10:58, Steve W. wrote:
Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show
something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that
hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch.


An interesting question, I remember when I grew up in the US in the
1970s seeing a film several times of a working museum, in
Pennsylvania?,Â* that preserved the techniques for making long rifles,
Kentucky?, and the main detail was about the rifling technique and
mechanics usedÂ* It didn't look high tech just required a bit of work to
produce the master screw which governed the rifling cutter.

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"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 08:48:33 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 10/23/2019 6:33 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
On 10/23/2019 6:34 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message
...

...

My first was a 1984 RatShack CoCo2 with ADOS, DSDD drives, and OS7
as
well as the "C" compiler - I added an e-prom burner and a composite
video output to replace the RF output. Still have it (and the 1984
MC10 portable version).
Next was a Sanyo 550 which I upgraded to IBM compatible video - but
it
could not handle enough RAM for Lotus so I built my first PC XT
clone


What did you think of the CoCo?

I was very impressed with the 6809's powerful instruction set, after
struggling to turn a homebrew wire-wrapped 8080 machine into something
resembling the IBM PC. The 8080 lacks relative jumps and is more
suited to embedded control than general purpose computing with
loadable programs. It provided good training in computer hardware
design, though.

The company was right at the leading edge of high speed memory chip
testing so I learned a lot about transmission lines and impedance
matching that helped greatly with digital radio design later at Mitre.
The memory testers were so fast that there would be three test vectors
(address & write data) travelling out within the coax between the
machine cabinet and the test head at the wafer prober, and three
results coming back. We manually trimmed the cable lengths to match
their propagation delays within a few picoseconds, 16ths of an inch at
the speed of light.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafer_testing

The CoCo had an elegantly simple video controller that I borrowed, in
monochrome form, after giving up on Don Lancaster's Cheap Video.

Although I didn't use the 6809, studying it helped a lot when I had to
design a 16-bit A/D converter board to go in a 68000-based NuBus
Macintosh and the Apple Certified Programmer assigned to write its
driver quit.

I could program UVPROMs on the Automatic Test Equipment we were
building at work, I wrote a routine to do it quickly for practice, but
the engineers gave me slow, pre-production samples of 2816 flash
memory that's pin-compatible with the 2716 UV PROM, and the 6116 CMOS
static RAM I was using.
http://cva.stanford.edu/classes/cs99...ts/at28c16.pdf



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"David Billington" wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2019 10:58, Steve W. wrote:
Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that
show something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't
be that hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from
scratch.


An interesting question, I remember when I grew up in the US in the
1970s seeing a film several times of a working museum, in
Pennsylvania?, that preserved the techniques for making long rifles,
Kentucky?, and the main detail was about the rifling technique and
mechanics used It didn't look high tech just required a bit of work
to produce the master screw which governed the rifling cutter.


The slow, tedious, manual method of gun making prompted several early
inventors to create automation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas...hard_(inventor)

Until around 1850 military contracts provided the only advance
financing and guaranteed demand to support buying new production
machinery. Combined with chronic labor shortages as immigrants headed
for the frontier, government rifle purchases were the first driver for
America's rapid advances in industrial automation. In 1800 we were a
backward third world nation, by the 1850's we were selling world-class
rifle production machines to Britain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Precision_Museum





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On 2019-10-23, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 08:48:33 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 10/23/2019 6:33 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
On 10/23/2019 6:34 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message
...
...

My first was a 1984 RatShack CoCo2 with ADOS, DSDD drives, and OS7
as
well as the "C" compiler


Or you sure that wasn't OS-9? The one by Microware which made
the MC-6809 into a multi-user multi-tasking system (if you has additional
serial ports.)

I used it (along with DOS-69 on a SWTP 6809 system, after using
the MC-6800 on both an Altair 680b and a SWTP 6800. The latter made it
easier to wire-wrap custom interfaces -- and mechanically/electrically
compatible with the SWTP 6809).

I preferred OS-9, once I had it, but started with SSB'sj DOS-68
and DOS-69 for the 6809 system.

- I added an e-prom burner and a composite
video output to replace the RF output. Still have it (and the 1984
MC10 portable version).
Next was a Sanyo 550 which I upgraded to IBM compatible video - but
it
could not handle enough RAM for Lotus so I built my first PC XT
clone


What did you think of the CoCo?


They got a lot out of very little hardware. But the bit-banger
serial interface was terrible -- toss in some MC-6850 serial port chips
and it got a lot more usable for multi-user operation.

I was very impressed with the 6809's powerful instruction set, after
struggling to turn a homebrew wire-wrapped 8080 machine into something
resembling the IBM PC. The 8080 lacks relative jumps and is more
suited to embedded control than general purpose computing with
loadable programs. It provided good training in computer hardware
design, though.


the MC-6800 was pretty good already, but Motorola did the right
thing with the MC-6809, tossing away backward compatibility -- though
they made an assembler which could convert MC-6800 code to MC-6809 code,
as long as you stayed clear of things playing with analyzing the stack,
as the monitor (EP)ROM did. They (SSB) had a really nice later monitor
EPROM -- while the SWTP 6800 used Motorola's MIKBUG as the monitor ROM,
and tricky addressing for the early SSB floppy controller card EPROMs to
allow it to be interleaved with the I/O address space.

The company was right at the leading edge of high speed memory chip
testing so I learned a lot about transmission lines and impedance
matching that helped greatly with digital radio design later at Mitre.
The memory testers were so fast that there would be three test vectors
(address & write data) travelling out within the coax between the
machine cabinet and the test head at the wafer prober, and three
results coming back. We manually trimmed the cable lengths to match
their propagation delays within a few picoseconds, 16ths of an inch at
the speed of light.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafer_testing

The CoCo had an elegantly simple video controller that I borrowed, in
monochrome form, after giving up on Don Lancaster's Cheap Video.


That controller was another custom Motorola chip, IIRC.

Although I didn't use the 6809, studying it helped a lot when I had to
design a 16-bit A/D converter board to go in a 68000-based NuBus
Macintosh and the Apple Certified Programmer assigned to write its
driver quit.


I did a lot of assembly language work with the 6800 and 6809.
Very little with the 68000, where most of my examples were Sun
workstations and servers, with good C compilers. The first system was a
COSMOS CMS-16/UNX with v7 unix and a terrible C compiler. Later system
were the AT&T Unix-PC/7300/3B1 using the MC-68010 CPU, and the later
Suns (before SPARC came into the game) were mostly the MC-68020, and one
or two examples of the MC-68030, which I never had.

I could program UVPROMs on the Automatic Test Equipment we were
building at work, I wrote a routine to do it quickly for practice, but
the engineers gave me slow, pre-production samples of 2816 flash
memory that's pin-compatible with the 2716 UV PROM, and the 6116 CMOS
static RAM I was using.
http://cva.stanford.edu/classes/cs99...ts/at28c16.pdf


I built a wire-wrapped computer at work using a MC-68B00 and a
superset of the SSB monitor ROM. I did the assembly using a Tektronix
MDL -- but at first I programmed the EPROMs with a suitcase-mounted
manual prom burner (I forget the maker at the moment) until I
wire-wrapped a burner for the 2716 to live in the system and expanded
the monitor to include burn instructions. I could assemble the code in
the MDL, and through a probe which plugged in where the CPU normally
lived, I could load the program into a block of memory and then burn the
EPROM on that with the MDL acting as the CPU, then switch back to the
normal CPU and continue to use it without the help of the MDL.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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"Steve W." on Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:18:13 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


At the moment I'm thinking a wooden bench then a single slotted bar and
an adjustment pin system at one end to select twist rates. I made a
smoothbore .50 a long time ago and it shoots real well considering. The
bench and the rest are the easy parts. The big thing is the cutter
advance, current thought is a long tapered wedge with a fine thread
adjustment.


I recall reading about using paper or similar thin shims. But the
wedge with fine thread might work too.

May not be automatic at first but I'm not running production
levels.


For real fun, work out how to do a "progressive twist" - where the
rifling twist gets higher the further down the barrel the bullet goes.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."
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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Steve W." on Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:18:13 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


At the moment I'm thinking a wooden bench then a single slotted bar
and
an adjustment pin system at one end to select twist rates. I made a
smoothbore .50 a long time ago and it shoots real well considering.
The
bench and the rest are the easy parts. The big thing is the cutter
advance, current thought is a long tapered wedge with a fine thread
adjustment.


I recall reading about using paper or similar thin shims. But the
wedge with fine thread might work too.

May not be automatic at first but I'm not running production
levels.


For real fun, work out how to do a "progressive twist" - where the
rifling twist gets higher the further down the barrel the bullet
goes.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


A lost method to lay out mathematical curves on a long cylinder was
discovered scribed on the unfinished wall of a Greek temple when it
was excavated. Had they finished the temple the scribed markings would
have been polished off. It's similar to the way I learned to lay out
the patterns for sheet metal ducting transition pieces, and the
full-sized ribs of sailing ships from the carved half model.

The desired curve would be drawn at full diameter but compressed
mangeably small in length and divided by eqully spaced lines. For
example it might be part of a parabola, the integral of a linearly
increasing function.
https://www.wikihow.com/Draw-a-Parab...Straight-Lines)
Next to it the full size outline of the cylinder, a temple column,
would be outlined and divided vertically by the same number of lines,
spread out evenly. Then with dividers the position of each
intersection of the curve and the verticals would be transferred from
the small drawing to the full-sized one, and connected by scribing
along a thin wooden strip bent to match them, giving the effect of
drawing the curve accurately with impossibly huge instruments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entasis

The same method could lay out a progressively tightening spiral on the
rifling guide, by transferring the heights of the profile of a curve
to the guide with a fine chain.

A sine bar rifling machine can be built strong enough to drive the
cutter directly from a straight or curved template, instead of guiding
a pencil to draw the spiral groove on a wooden cylinder.


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On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:25:55 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

"Steve W." on Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:18:13 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


At the moment I'm thinking a wooden bench then a single slotted bar and
an adjustment pin system at one end to select twist rates. I made a
smoothbore .50 a long time ago and it shoots real well considering. The
bench and the rest are the easy parts. The big thing is the cutter
advance, current thought is a long tapered wedge with a fine thread
adjustment.


I recall reading about using paper or similar thin shims. But the
wedge with fine thread might work too.

May not be automatic at first but I'm not running production
levels.


For real fun, work out how to do a "progressive twist" - where the
rifling twist gets higher the further down the barrel the bullet goes.


Paper shims under the single cutter were used in the Foxfire book. One
groove was done at a time until full depth, then index for the next.
I still have all the Foxfire books somewhere.

Pete Keillor
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John B. on Thu, 24 Oct 2019 05:17:46 +0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 05:58:40 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that show
something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be that
hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from scratch.


See http://orro.net/2011/02/rifling-machine/ for some ideas.


Once I figured out what he was doing, I saw how clever that method
is. And adaptable, as in "one can easily change the twist, without
having to make a new guide."
The fun part is that now I have an idea for how to put spiral
'carvings' on wooden banister post. Now all I need is the lathe, and
the space to set up. Oh, and a banister which needs posts. B-)


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
John B. on Thu, 24 Oct 2019 05:17:46
+0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 05:58:40 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that
show
something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't be
that
hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from
scratch.


See http://orro.net/2011/02/rifling-machine/ for some ideas.


Once I figured out what he was doing, I saw how clever that method
is. And adaptable, as in "one can easily change the twist, without
having to make a new guide."
The fun part is that now I have an idea for how to put spiral
'carvings' on wooden banister post. Now all I need is the lathe,
and
the space to set up. Oh, and a banister which needs posts. B-)


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


Here's the lathe you need:
http://ornamentalturning.co.uk/

A Rose Engine can create extremely complex geometric patterns like on
the back of a $1 bill.


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On 24/10/2019 02:44, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2019 10:58, Steve W. wrote:
Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that
show something like a sine bar machine or other style that wouldn't
be that hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from
scratch.

An interesting question, I remember when I grew up in the US in the
1970s seeing a film several times of a working museum, in
Pennsylvania?, that preserved the techniques for making long rifles,
Kentucky?, and the main detail was about the rifling technique and
mechanics used It didn't look high tech just required a bit of work
to produce the master screw which governed the rifling cutter.

The slow, tedious, manual method of gun making prompted several early
inventors to create automation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas...hard_(inventor)


Similarly in England at the Portmouth blocks mills
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Block_Mills .



Until around 1850 military contracts provided the only advance
financing and guaranteed demand to support buying new production
machinery. Combined with chronic labor shortages as immigrants headed
for the frontier, government rifle purchases were the first driver for
America's rapid advances in industrial automation. In 1800 we were a
backward third world nation, by the 1850's we were selling world-class
rifle production machines to Britain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Precision_Museum




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"David Billington" wrote in message
...
On 24/10/2019 02:44, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2019 10:58, Steve W. wrote:
Anyone got a site or place where there are plans or drawings that
show something like a sine bar machine or other style that
wouldn't
be that hard to build?

Am thinking of building a flintlock or percussion rifle all from
scratch.
An interesting question, I remember when I grew up in the US in
the
1970s seeing a film several times of a working museum, in
Pennsylvania?, that preserved the techniques for making long
rifles,
Kentucky?, and the main detail was about the rifling technique and
mechanics used It didn't look high tech just required a bit of
work
to produce the master screw which governed the rifling cutter.

The slow, tedious, manual method of gun making prompted several
early
inventors to create automation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas...hard_(inventor)


Similarly in England at the Portmouth blocks mills
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Block_Mills .


The ideas underlying the Industrial Revolution were originally French,
but England and then America provided more productive environments for
their development. AFAICT automation was suppressed elsewhere to
protect traditional jobs but that may not be the whole answer.

An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of
the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of
everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully
answer him.


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Pete Keillor writes:

Paper shims under the single cutter were used in the Foxfire book. One
groove was done at a time until full depth, then index for the next.
I still have all the Foxfire books somewhere.


There's an excellent video out there somewhere -- albeit possibly not
on the net -- in which a rifled flintlock is tracked from wraapping &
forge welding the barrel to rifling to making the lock and eventual
proof fireing of the completed barrel. Details of the rifling
process/tooling were pretty clear IIRC.

Sadly, I can remember neither the smith's name nor the "restoration
village" where he worked for many years. Some grovelling through
blacksmithing sites or googling for terms related to restoration or
re-enactment villages might turn it up. Not in New England, more like
somewhere in Virginia?

--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
...

Pete Keillor writes:

Paper shims under the single cutter were used in the Foxfire book.
One
groove was done at a time until full depth, then index for the
next.
I still have all the Foxfire books somewhere.


There's an excellent video out there somewhere -- albeit possibly
not
on the net -- in which a rifled flintlock is tracked from wraapping
&
forge welding the barrel to rifling to making the lock and eventual
proof fireing of the completed barrel. Details of the rifling
process/tooling were pretty clear IIRC.

Sadly, I can remember neither the smith's name nor the "restoration
village" where he worked for many years. Some grovelling through
blacksmithing sites or googling for terms related to restoration or
re-enactment villages might turn it up. Not in New England, more
like
somewhere in Virginia?

--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada


Here?
https://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/locations/gunsmith




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"Jim Wilkins" writes:

"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
...

There's an excellent video out there somewhere -- albeit possibly
not on the net -- in which a rifled flintlock is tracked from
wraapping & forge welding the barrel to rifling to making the lock
and eventual proof fireing of the completed barrel. Details of the
rifling process/tooling were pretty clear IIRC.

Sadly, I can remember neither the smith's name nor the "restoration
village" where he worked for many years.


Here?

https://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/locations/gunsmith


Yup. That's the one. Still can't remember the smith's name. I saw
the film long enough ago that the guy doing the demo is probably long
since retired.

I see from a quick gwgle that they substantially curtailed the
gunsmith shop a decade ago. Too bad. You don't have to be a
pathological firearms freak to appreciate the skill and workmanship
and the importance of same in the 18th c.

I see that DVDs of The Williamsburg Gunsmith are available, albeit
kinda pricey.

--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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On 10/27/2019 1:29 AM, Mike Spencer wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" writes:

"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
...

There's an excellent video out there somewhere -- albeit possibly
not on the net -- in which a rifled flintlock is tracked from
wraapping & forge welding the barrel to rifling to making the lock
and eventual proof fireing of the completed barrel. Details of the
rifling process/tooling were pretty clear IIRC.

Sadly, I can remember neither the smith's name nor the "restoration
village" where he worked for many years.


Here?

https://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/locations/gunsmith


Yup. That's the one. Still can't remember the smith's name. I saw
the film long enough ago that the guy doing the demo is probably long
since retired.

I see from a quick gwgle that they substantially curtailed the
gunsmith shop a decade ago. Too bad. You don't have to be a
pathological firearms freak to appreciate the skill and workmanship
and the importance of same in the 18th c.

I see that DVDs of The Williamsburg Gunsmith are available, albeit
kinda pricey.

If you have an Apple device that can retrieve from the Apps store,
there's an animation of Robbins & Lawrence Co. Rifling Machine No.1.
Made in 1853, the machine is hand operated. You are able to zoom into
each "subsystem" of the machine for a better look and description. The
demo is making a pistol barrel, but the machine is also capable long
barrels too.

Steve

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On 10/27/2019 11:02 AM, shiggins wrote:
On 10/27/2019 1:29 AM, Mike Spencer wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" writes:

"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
...

There's an excellent video out there somewhere -- albeit possibly
not on the net -- in which a rifled flintlock is tracked from
wraapping & forge welding the barrel to rifling to making the lock
and eventual proof fireing of the completed barrel.Â* Details of the
rifling process/tooling were pretty clear IIRC.

Sadly, I can remember neither the smith's name nor the "restoration
village" where he worked for many years.

Here?

https://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/locations/gunsmith


Yup.Â* That's the one. Still can't remember the smith's name.Â* I saw
the film long enough ago that the guy doing the demo is probably long
since retired.

I see from a quick gwgle that they substantially curtailed the
gunsmith shop a decade ago.Â* Too bad.Â* You don't have to be a
pathological firearms freak to appreciate the skill and workmanship
and the importance of same in the 18th c.

I seeÂ* that DVDs ofÂ* The Williamsburg Gunsmith are available, albeit
kinda pricey.

If you have an Apple device that can retrieve from the Apps store,
there's an animation of Robbins & Lawrence Co. Rifling Machine No.1.
Made in 1853, the machine is hand operated. You are able to zoom into
each "subsystem" of the machine for a better look and description.Â* The
demo is making a pistol barrel, but the machine is also capable long
barrels too.

Steve

I forgot. The app is "3D Rifling". Searching for "Robbins, et. al. won't
find it.

Steve
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On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:

An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of
the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of
everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully
answer him.


One theory: the black death resulted in younger property owners, who could
foresee a long life ahead, and weren't inclined to be staid and conservative.
So, they innovated.
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whit3rd on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:36:59 -0800 (PST)
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:
An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of
the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of
everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully
answer him.


One theory: the black death resulted in younger property owners, who could
foresee a long life ahead, and weren't inclined to be staid and conservative.
So, they innovated.


Younger property owners had no more expectation of a long life
during the plague years than those they inherited the property from.
"Eat, drink, and make Merry, tomorrow we die."
A more likely theory: loss of work force allowed/required
innovation. You needed more efficient technologies, you couldn't just
add more manpower. And, there were fewer "old hands" to say that's
not how we've done it."

On a side note, the Roman Empire had the technology to make steam
engines. But there was no demand, in large part because those who
could afford the expense of the machines, saw no need. They could
always buy more manpower.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
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whit3rd on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:36:59 -0800 (PST)
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:
An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's
domination of
the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of
everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully
answer him.


One theory: the black death resulted in younger property owners, who
could
foresee a long life ahead, and weren't inclined to be staid and
conservative.
So, they innovated.


Younger property owners had no more expectation of a long life
during the plague years than those they inherited the property from.
"Eat, drink, and make Merry, tomorrow we die."
A more likely theory: loss of work force allowed/required
innovation. You needed more efficient technologies, you couldn't
just
add more manpower. And, there were fewer "old hands" to say that's
not how we've done it."

On a side note, the Roman Empire had the technology to make steam
engines. But there was no demand, in large part because those who
could afford the expense of the machines, saw no need. They could
always buy more manpower.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


It's claimed that Anthemius, the architect of Hagia Sophia in
Istanbul, did build an steam-powered device of some sort, possibly an
unbalanced engine.
http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/The...gine-1890.ashx

Although Savery's engine of 1698 used steam under pressure, the
problem of making a strong boiler wasn't solved for another hundred
years.


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"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:

An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination
of
the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of
everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully
answer him.


One theory: the black death resulted in younger property owners, who
could
foresee a long life ahead, and weren't inclined to be staid and
conservative.
So, they innovated.


https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_Pet...Renaissance%3F
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerolamo_Cardano

However, great minds in Persia, India and China did not spark similar
advances.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/al-Khwarizmi

I wonder if the difference was cultural attitudes to change.


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"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:45:08 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:

An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination
of
the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of
everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully
answer him.


One theory: the black death resulted in younger property owners, who
could
foresee a long life ahead, and weren't inclined to be staid and
conservative.
So, they innovated.


https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_Pet...Renaissance%3F
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerolamo_Cardano

However, great minds in Persia, India and China did not spark similar
advances.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/al-Khwarizmi

I wonder if the difference was cultural attitudes to change.


Bingo. It is interesting to note that much of the scientific
development of The West (specifically England,) was done by
Dissenters, those who were not part of the Established Church.
Likewise the early Golden Age of the Muslim world had as much to do
with non-muslim scholars, and a desire by Muslim potentates to "show
off." But that changed in the 12th (??) Century with a judgment that
what we would call "science" was not compatible with Islam.

It has also been said that one issue which helped hold China back
was the Mandate of Heaven. If the Emperor said "do it" it got done.
If he said "nope" - it didn't happen. I'm thinking of the expeditions
which reached to Madagascar(iirc), but were ended "suddenly", the
ships left to rot on the beach.



But it is a puzzlement.

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."
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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019
15:45:08 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins
wrote:


But it is a puzzlement.


My personal, unproven opinion is that a critical element is social
acceptance of successful and influential people working with their own
hands at home. A British expat racing engineer who lives in Spain told
me they don't understand at all why he would buy machine tools and
materials to make suspension parts etc at home, it Just Isn't Done.
Fortunately Brits are allowed, even expected, to be eccentric.

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/c...r-a-curiosity/
"Wll, here in Mexico, woodworking as a hobby is practically non
existent, mostly because of cultural and as mention economic reasons.
Most woodworking here is done by carpenters, and it is viewed a a
trade practiced by not very educated people. It used to be that hiring
a carpenter was so cheap that well to do people would rather do that
than be seen with a hammer in hand."

Brazil:
"Some societies have historically considered manual labor to be
demeaning, in the sense of indicating lower social status. At the
extreme, manual labor in those societies was assigned the people of
lowest status-slaves. Those who have had the social prestige as well
as the political power and economic wherewithal to change those
cultural norms, the descendants of the masters, have had little
incentive to do so."

This mirrors my experience in Germany: "On the economy" means outside
the self-contained American society of the military bases, where most
troops stayed. I was very much the exception, exploring the towns and
countryside as much as possible.
"From Glenn's post, it sounds like little has changed since I lived
and worked wood in Germany. I bought most of my wood through the
on-post craft shop because all I could find on the economy was
roughsawn blue spruce (that was in the 80's). My German friends, those
who worked with their hands anyway, were mostly into working on thier
cars and motorcycles. The only woodworkers I met were pros."



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"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 19:10:33 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
.. .
"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019
15:45:08 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
"whit3rd" wrote in message
...
On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 12:52:31 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins
wrote:

But it is a puzzlement.


My personal, unproven opinion is that a critical element is social
acceptance of successful and influential people working with their own
hands at home. A British expat racing engineer who lives in Spain told
me they don't understand at all why he would buy machine tools and
materials to make suspension parts etc at home, it Just Isn't Done.
Fortunately Brits are allowed, even expected, to be eccentric.

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/c...r-a-curiosity/
"Wll, here in Mexico, woodworking as a hobby is practically non
existent, mostly because of cultural and as mention economic reasons.
Most woodworking here is done by carpenters, and it is viewed a a
trade practiced by not very educated people. It used to be that hiring
a carpenter was so cheap that well to do people would rather do that
than be seen with a hammer in hand."

Brazil:
"Some societies have historically considered manual labor to be
demeaning, in the sense of indicating lower social status. At the
extreme, manual labor in those societies was assigned the people of
lowest status-slaves. Those who have had the social prestige as well
as the political power and economic wherewithal to change those
cultural norms, the descendants of the masters, have had little
incentive to do so."

This mirrors my experience in Germany: "On the economy" means outside
the self-contained American society of the military bases, where most
troops stayed. I was very much the exception, exploring the towns and
countryside as much as possible.
"From Glenn's post, it sounds like little has changed since I lived
and worked wood in Germany. I bought most of my wood through the
on-post craft shop because all I could find on the economy was
roughsawn blue spruce (that was in the 80's). My German friends, those
who worked with their hands anyway, were mostly into working on thier
cars and motorcycles. The only woodworkers I met were pros."


There are a whole lot of cultural reasons, as you point out. The
difference between the Aristocracy and "Trade" goes way back. And
while his Lordship might take up woodturning as a hobby, it was not
something "serious". This was prevalent even in the late 1800s: the
British boffins would discover a means to make an artificial fibre,
dye, "thing", but it would be the Germans who created an industry.
Research and the pursuit of Science was a noble thing. Making money
from it was just so, so, well, it just wasn't seemly.
Which is why so many British aristocratic family had American
daughters in law. With the bride came the money to keep the family
estates.

Anyway, this still doesn't explain how so many Englishmen got
wealthy "in trade" making steel, coal, cloth, etc, etc, and other
parts of the world didn't. "Culture" explains some of it, but that is
a very large tent.
The question comes: why did (the English especially) Western
Europe get not just the "science" but the technological advances?
Starting with gun-powder. The Chinese had it, but firearms never
became "big".

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news
"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019
19:10:33 -0500

The question comes: why did (the English especially) Western
Europe get not just the "science" but the technological advances?
Starting with gun-powder. The Chinese had it, but firearms never
became "big".

--
pyotr filipivich


A good starting point is why the French failed to develop so many of
their numerous inventions. The word "sabotage" (wrecking machinery
with heavy wooden shoes, Sabots) comes to mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite
"...eventually the movement was suppressed with legal and military
force."



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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news
"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019
19:10:33 -0500


The question comes: why did (the English especially) Western
Europe get not just the "science" but the technological advances?
Starting with gun-powder. The Chinese had it, but firearms never
became "big".

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


https://www.learnchinesehistory.com/...nnons-history/

"Xena" showed pretty good examples of that Chinese artillery, although
they couldn't resist adding in an apparent nuke.

Western guns (gonnes) were similarly crude in that era and didn't fit
the ethic of the heroic knight.


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On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:02:24 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

who worked with their hands anyway, were mostly into working on thier
cars and motorcycles. The only woodworkers I met were pros."


There are a whole lot of cultural reasons, as you point out. The
difference between the Aristocracy and "Trade" goes way back. And
while his Lordship might take up woodturning as a hobby, it was not
something "serious". This was prevalent even in the late 1800s: the
British boffins would discover a means to make an artificial fibre,
dye, "thing", but it would be the Germans who created an industry.
Research and the pursuit of Science was a noble thing. Making money
from it was just so, so, well, it just wasn't seemly.
Which is why so many British aristocratic family had American
daughters in law. With the bride came the money to keep the family
estates.

Anyway, this still doesn't explain how so many Englishmen got
wealthy "in trade" making steel, coal, cloth, etc, etc, and other
parts of the world didn't. "Culture" explains some of it, but that is
a very large tent.
The question comes: why did (the English especially) Western
Europe get not just the "science" but the technological advances?
Starting with gun-powder. The Chinese had it, but firearms never
became "big".


The Brits were very big contributors to science and technology up to
the end of the Great War. Radio, medical technology, radar,
microwaves, internal combustion engines in new ways and materials
workings. There are 83 different thread types in the British
inventory..pipe threads, nut and bolt threads, steam and gas threads
etc etc. From the Victorian age right through 1918 and the loss of a
SIGNIFICANT number of their boffins who got themselves killed in
France..many of who left no children to pass along their genes. Those
that did..managed to make enough children to die in Dunkirk, El
Alamein, the far East and of course..Europe. That has really..really
hurt the British gene pool. It left the halt, the lame, the stupid and
the moronic alive to breed. And thats largely what makes up the
British gene pool today, sadly. It will take another 100 yrs or more
to build up good genes. In earlier times..the survivors of English
wars were the smart, the quick and the nimble. With the Maxim Gun,
came indistriminate slaughter and a hidieous culling of the
adventureous.

Gunner
__

"Poor widdle Wudy...mentally ill, lies constantly, doesnt know who he is, or even what gender "he" is.

No more pathetic creature has ever walked the earth. But...he is locked into a mental hospital for the safety of the public.

Which is a very good thing."

Asun rauhassa, valmistaudun sotaan.


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
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"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019
19:10:33 -0500

Anyway, this still doesn't explain how so many Englishmen got
wealthy "in trade" making steel, coal, cloth, etc, etc, and other
parts of the world didn't.


And still don't. How often do you see foreign complaints that some
common (to us) item is too heavily taxed to import and not made
locally?

https://shieldgeo.com/5-countries-wh...rt-a-business/



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"Jim Wilkins" on Tue, 5 Nov 2019 17:26:15 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news
"Jim Wilkins" on Mon, 4 Nov 2019
19:10:33 -0500


The question comes: why did (the English especially) Western
Europe get not just the "science" but the technological advances?
Starting with gun-powder. The Chinese had it, but firearms never
became "big".

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


https://www.learnchinesehistory.com/...nnons-history/

"Xena" showed pretty good examples of that Chinese artillery, although
they couldn't resist adding in an apparent nuke.

Western guns (gonnes) were similarly crude in that era and didn't fit
the ethic of the heroic knight.


But, once they got the major kinks worked out, musketeers were
easier to train than archers. "Quaintly has its own quality."

I remember James Burke in his series "Connections" point out that
after the Burgundian wars in the mid 15th C, the Swiss pike formation
revolutionized warfare, because a pike formation could stop Knights,
for a whole lot less.
Later, as the handgonnes got more reliable, the "bayonet" was
invented, allowing you to outfit a "combined arms" (guns and pikes)
for less. Etc, etc.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


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"Jim Wilkins" on Fri, 25 Oct 2019 12:54:34
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Similarly in England at the Portmouth blocks mills
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Block_Mills .


The ideas underlying the Industrial Revolution were originally French,
but England and then America provided more productive environments for
their development. AFAICT automation was suppressed elsewhere to
protect traditional jobs but that may not be the whole answer.

An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of
the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of
everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully
answer him.

There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."
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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Jim Wilkins" on Fri, 25 Oct 2019 12:54:34
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Similarly in England at the Portmouth blocks mills
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Block_Mills .


The ideas underlying the Industrial Revolution were originally
French,
but England and then America provided more productive environments
for
their development. AFAICT automation was suppressed elsewhere to
protect traditional jobs but that may not be the whole answer.

An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination
of
the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of
everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully
answer him.

There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


Life is a waterfall.


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On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" on Fri, 25 Oct 2019 12:54:34
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Similarly in England at the Portmouth blocks mills
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Block_Mills .


The ideas underlying the Industrial Revolution were originally French,
but England and then America provided more productive environments for
their development. AFAICT automation was suppressed elsewhere to
protect traditional jobs but that may not be the whole answer.

An engineer from India who resented the USA and Europe's domination of
the modern world asked me why Europe had suddenly surged ahead of
everyone else, particularly India and China, and I couldn't fully
answer him.

There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible.


I think it is because they embraced change (then found out it gave
them power and made tons of money, too.) It probably had something to
do with concentration of like-minded people, too.

--
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

...

There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible.


I think it is because they embraced change (then found out it gave
them power and made tons of money, too.) It probably had something
to
do with concentration of like-minded people, too.


Especially these two, and later their apprentices:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah



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"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

...
There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible.


I brought up the subject of what enables or hinders progress because
we are in a golden age right now, and an envious element who hasn't
learned how to participate constructively and politicians who seek a
larger power base of Miserati whom they can falsely promise to help by
punitively taxing success are trying to destroy it.
https://www.businessinsider.com/were...erybody-2018-1
"We're in a Golden Age, but can only see darkness ahead."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude




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On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:19:45 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

...
There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible.


I think it is because they embraced change (then found out it gave
them power and made tons of money, too.) It probably had something
to
do with concentration of like-minded people, too.


Especially these two, and later their apprentices:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah


Cool.


--
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:19:45 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

...
There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible.

I think it is because they embraced change (then found out it gave
them power and made tons of money, too.) It probably had
something
to
do with concentration of like-minded people, too.


Especially these two, and later their apprentices:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah


Cool.


The USA had comparably talented inventors but they didn't work
together.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Oliver-Evans
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Simeon-North
https://www.britannica.com/biography...-Miller-Shreve
https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fitch


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On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 00:00:18 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:19:45 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:53:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

...
There are many reasons, some specious, some plausible.

I think it is because they embraced change (then found out it gave
them power and made tons of money, too.) It probably had
something
to
do with concentration of like-minded people, too.

Especially these two, and later their apprentices:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah


Cool.


The USA had comparably talented inventors but they didn't work
together.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Oliver-Evans
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Simeon-North
https://www.britannica.com/biography...-Miller-Shreve
https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fitch


Wow, so much loss for these poor guys! Then fame for Fulton rather
than Fitch. That sucks. But we did have some very talented people
in the USA.

--
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Larry Jaques on Sat, 23 Nov 2019
21:37:54 -0800 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Especially these two, and later their apprentices:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah

Cool.


The USA had comparably talented inventors but they didn't work
together.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Oliver-Evans
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Simeon-North
https://www.britannica.com/biography...-Miller-Shreve
https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fitch


Wow, so much loss for these poor guys! Then fame for Fulton rather
than Fitch. That sucks. But we did have some very talented people
in the USA.


History is full of guy A inventing / discovering something "first"
but guy B is the one who got the publicity. E.G., it is called
"America" because the map maker called it after Americo Vespucci, for
various reasons.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."
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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques on Sat, 23 Nov 2019
21:37:54 -0800 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Especially these two, and later their apprentices:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-Bramah

Cool.

The USA had comparably talented inventors but they didn't work
together.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Oliver-Evans
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Simeon-North
https://www.britannica.com/biography...-Miller-Shreve
https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Fitch


Wow, so much loss for these poor guys! Then fame for Fulton rather
than Fitch. That sucks. But we did have some very talented people
in the USA.


History is full of guy A inventing / discovering something "first"
but guy B is the one who got the publicity. E.G., it is called
"America" because the map maker called it after Americo Vespucci,
for
various reasons.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."


It's often A, B, C and D tinkering with the idea, then E making it
practical after a different advance removes the last stumbling block.
Steam transportation required stronger boilers, airplanes needed
lightweight engines.

In my own experience the Segway required solid-state gyros, and cell
phones required A/D converters fast enough to digitize radio
frequencies. I was building prototypes with digital storage scope
components.


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