Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

T'all,

A few years ago I made a new barrel for an old German-made Hubertus .177 caliber air pistol.

Quite by accident, it came out pretty well:

https://plus.google.com/photos/11723...88823271886433

Since then I've probably plinked a thousand pellets thru it. Loads of fun for the G'kids.

At the time, I briefly looked for info on rifling such a small barrel, but found little available at this size.
My general understanding of the process is that a hardened button is pressed through a barrel to rifle it. I've never done this type of thing myself though.

I'm currently toying with the idea of making another barrel, as I've still plenty of the 20mm O1 steel I bought for the first barrel, but this time I'd like to see about rifling it.

Does anyone have any information on how I might go about making another rifled barrel for this caliber air gun?


Thanks,

--
PaulS
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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel



As a matter of fact, I'm setting up to build 9mm rifled barrels right
now. I'm using my CHNC lathe and a high pressure car wash pump to set
up gundrilling. Then a rifling button to press through the honed
barrel for the rifle grooves.

Even doing things on the cheap, I'll end up spending $500 to make the
first barrel. probably not worth it for one.

Green Mountain rifle company sells barrel blanks. You might look into
that. http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/search?searchvalue=.17

Karl



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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 09:28:06 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

T'all,

A few years ago I made a new barrel for an old German-made Hubertus .177 caliber air pistol.

Quite by accident, it came out pretty well:

https://plus.google.com/photos/11723...88823271886433

Since then I've probably plinked a thousand pellets thru it. Loads of fun for the G'kids.

At the time, I briefly looked for info on rifling such a small barrel, but found little available at this size.
My general understanding of the process is that a hardened button is pressed through a barrel to rifle it. I've never done this type of thing myself though.

I'm currently toying with the idea of making another barrel, as I've still plenty of the 20mm O1 steel I bought for the first barrel, but this time I'd like to see about rifling it.

Does anyone have any information on how I might go about making another rifled barrel for this caliber air gun?


Thanks,


Originally rifling was cut rather then impressed. See
http://orro.net/2011/02/08/rifling-machine/
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvnKSfDUCWY
for sine bar rifling machinery.
see
http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm
for a rather comprehensive description of, essentially, how to make a
gun barrel.
--
Cheers,

John B.
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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

John B. wrote:
see
http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm
for a rather comprehensive description of, essentially, how to make a
gun barrel.
--


Thank you for a most interesting link!

bob prohaska


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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:04:14 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


Originally rifling was cut rather then impressed. See

http://orro.net/2011/02/08/rifling-machine/

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvnKSfDUCWY

for sine bar rifling machinery.

see

http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm

for a rather comprehensive description of, essentially, how to make a

gun barrel.



John,

Very nice links, I'll have time to study them more later today.

Thank you.

--

PaulS


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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:59:23 PM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:
As a matter of fact, I'm setting up to build 9mm rifled barrels right

now. I'm using my CHNC lathe and a high pressure car wash pump to set

up gundrilling. Then a rifling button to press through the honed

barrel for the rifle grooves.



Even doing things on the cheap, I'll end up spending $500 to make the

first barrel. probably not worth it for one.



Green Mountain rifle company sells barrel blanks. You might look into

that. http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/search?searchvalue=.17



Karl


Karl,

Sounds interesting, but potentially very messy ;-).
I will look forward to hear how that works out.

As an alternate to gun drilling, have you looked at the newest drill geometries, such as Titex, that can do 20 to 30 diameters, no peck, and with normal coolant pressure? Just amazing... to me at least.

Yes, buying a pre-rifled barrel would be one way to skin this cat. However, I do also need a ground finish & correct 20mm sizing on the OD of this barrel, so that would require some work. Not to mention my congenital parsimony.

Thanks for posting,

--
PaulS
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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 04:30:14 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:59:23 PM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:
As a matter of fact, I'm setting up to build 9mm rifled barrels right

now. I'm using my CHNC lathe and a high pressure car wash pump to set

up gundrilling. Then a rifling button to press through the honed

barrel for the rifle grooves.



Even doing things on the cheap, I'll end up spending $500 to make the

first barrel. probably not worth it for one.



Green Mountain rifle company sells barrel blanks. You might look into

that. http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/search?searchvalue=.17



Karl


Karl,

Sounds interesting, but potentially very messy ;-).
I will look forward to hear how that works out.

As an alternate to gun drilling, have you looked at the newest drill geometries, such as Titex, that can do 20 to 30 diameters, no peck, and with normal coolant pressure? Just amazing... to me at least.

Yes, buying a pre-rifled barrel would be one way to skin this cat. However, I do also need a ground finish & correct 20mm sizing on the OD of this barrel, so that would require some work. Not to mention my congenital parsimony.

Thanks for posting,


It is not difficult to turn a .22 cal barrel to 20mm O.D. But why the
"ground finish"?
--
Cheers,

John B.
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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

On Thursday, September 12, 2013 8:06:06 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


It is not difficult to turn a .22 cal barrel to 20mm O.D. But why the

"ground finish"?


If you're not familiar with it, the Hubertus is a push-in-the-barrel, to cock the spring, air pistol.

That interface twixt barrel OD, and the hole in front of the air cylinder, is hence important enough to suggest a ground finish. But yes, I could easily get away with just a sheet of emery after turning.

Also though, somewhat, in a quest for authenticity. Which BTW is why I'd like it rifled, as the original was.

This particular gun is a family heirloom, which makes the effort seem worthwhile.

--

PaulS
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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:28:06 AM UTC-6, PCS wrote:
T'all, A few years ago I made a new barrel for an old German-made Hubertus .177 caliber air pistol. Quite by accident, it came out pretty well: https://plus.google.com/photos/11723...88823271886433 Since then I've probably plinked a thousand pellets thru it. Loads of fun for the G'kids. At the time, I briefly looked for info on rifling such a small barrel, but found little available at this size. My general understanding of the process is that a hardened button is pressed through a barrel to rifle it. I've never done this type of thing myself though. I'm currently toying with the idea of making another barrel, as I've still plenty of the 20mm O1 steel I bought for the first barrel, but this time I'd like to see about rifling it. Does anyone have any information on how I might go about making another rifled barrel for this caliber air gun? Thanks, -- PaulS


There's not a lot of books out there on how-to for barrelmaking, I've got one that's basically an unedited manuscript I bought off of a custom maker years back that details everything needed to go into button rifling. Howe's "The Modern Gunsmith" tells how to set up a barrel drilling operation complete with gundrills and scrape or hook rifling heads. It'd be far cheaper to buy a target barrel spare from an air rifle supplier and cut and turn it to size than set up for a onesie rifling project. The button rifling guy pulled his buttons rather than psuhing them, took a fairly healthy hydraulic rig. Just making the buttons took a fancy cutter grinder and diamond wheels as well as a premium grade of carbide. It's a production method for hundreds of barrels rather than being suited to a one-off. A sine-bar scrape- or hook-rifling setup is far more suited to one-offs. The grade of steel makes a huge difference on how good a job of rifling you get with the buttons.

Stan
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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

On Thursday, September 12, 2013 6:14:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:28:06 AM UTC-6, PCS wrote:

T'all, A few years ago I made a new barrel for an old German-made Hubertus .177 caliber air pistol. Quite by accident, it came out pretty well: https://plus.google.com/photos/11723...88823271886433 Since then I've probably plinked a thousand pellets thru it. Loads of fun for the G'kids. At the time, I briefly looked for info on rifling such a small barrel, but found little available at this size. My general understanding of the process is that a hardened button is pressed through a barrel to rifle it. I've never done this type of thing myself though. I'm currently toying with the idea of making another barrel, as I've still plenty of the 20mm O1 steel I bought for the first barrel, but this time I'd like to see about rifling it. Does anyone have any information on how I might go about making another rifled barrel for this caliber air gun? Thanks, -- PaulS




There's not a lot of books out there on how-to for barrelmaking, I've got one that's basically an unedited manuscript I bought off of a custom maker years back that details everything needed to go into button rifling. Howe's "The Modern Gunsmith" tells how to set up a barrel drilling operation complete with gundrills and scrape or hook rifling heads. It'd be far cheaper to buy a target barrel spare from an air rifle supplier and cut and turn it to size than set up for a onesie rifling project. The button rifling guy pulled his buttons rather than psuhing them, took a fairly healthy hydraulic rig. Just making the buttons took a fancy cutter grinder and diamond wheels as well as a premium grade of carbide. It's a production method for hundreds of barrels rather than being suited to a one-off. A sine-bar scrape- or hook-rifling setup is far more suited to one-offs. The grade of steel makes a huge difference on how good a job of rifling you get with the buttons.



Stan


Hi,

Yes, for air-gun barrels any free machining steel is best, no need for CrMo..

So, with carbide buttons currently out of reach economically, I'm looking for a cut rifling solution then.

Even if I did want to hack together an indexing sine-bar machine, the design and construction of a .17-size single-point, adjustable, cutter assembly has me a bit stumped so far. If anyone is doing cut rifling at this size I'd love to hear all about it.

I have however heard far away tales of a spiral-fluted reamer being successfully brought to this task.

With 6-flutes, and a respectable twist rate, it has some merits as the starting point for a small scratcher tool.

The idea, as far as I've heard, is to grind a broaching profile to cut all the rifling in one pass, using the ream's spiral fluting to provide the twist of the cutting action in the barrel. Sounds too good to be true.
I'll keep looking into it though.

Thanks for your thoughts.

--

PaulS



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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 09:33:41 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

On Thursday, September 12, 2013 6:14:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:28:06 AM UTC-6, PCS wrote:

T'all, A few years ago I made a new barrel for an old German-made Hubertus .177 caliber air pistol. Quite by accident, it came out pretty well: https://plus.google.com/photos/11723...88823271886433 Since then I've probably plinked a thousand pellets thru it. Loads of fun for the G'kids. At the time, I briefly looked for info on rifling such a small barrel, but found little available at this size. My general understanding of the process is that a hardened button is pressed through a barrel to rifle it. I've never done this type of thing myself though. I'm currently toying with the idea of making another barrel, as I've still plenty of the 20mm O1 steel I bought for the first barrel, but this time I'd like to see about rifling it. Does anyone have any information on how I might go about making another rifled barrel for this caliber air gun? Thanks, -- PaulS




There's not a lot of books out there on how-to for barrelmaking, I've got one that's basically an unedited manuscript I bought off of a custom maker years back that details everything needed to go into button rifling. Howe's "The Modern Gunsmith" tells how to set up a barrel drilling operation complete with gundrills and scrape or hook rifling heads. It'd be far cheaper to buy a target barrel spare from an air rifle supplier and cut and turn it to size than set up for a onesie rifling project. The button rifling guy pulled his buttons rather than psuhing them, took a fairly healthy hydraulic rig. Just making the buttons took a fancy cutter grinder and diamond wheels as well as a premium grade of carbide. It's a production method for hundreds of barrels rather than being suited to a one-off. A sine-bar scrape- or hook-rifling setup is far more suited to one-offs. The grade of steel makes a huge difference on how good a job of rifling you get with the buttons.



Stan


Hi,

Yes, for air-gun barrels any free machining steel is best, no need for CrMo.

So, with carbide buttons currently out of reach economically, I'm looking for a cut rifling solution then.

Even if I did want to hack together an indexing sine-bar machine, the design and construction of a .17-size single-point, adjustable, cutter assembly has me a bit stumped so far. If anyone is doing cut rifling at this size I'd love to hear all about it.

I have however heard far away tales of a spiral-fluted reamer being successfully brought to this task.

With 6-flutes, and a respectable twist rate, it has some merits as the starting point for a small scratcher tool.

The idea, as far as I've heard, is to grind a broaching profile to cut all the rifling in one pass, using the ream's spiral fluting to provide the twist of the cutting action in the barrel. Sounds too good to be true.
I'll keep looking into it though.

Thanks for your thoughts.

If you are going to use the reamer idea can you make your own reamer?
Then you can get the correct twist along with the correct diameter. Of
course you may be able to get a reamer with a twist that works. I have
ordered several straight flute reamers in custom sizes and they can
also be bought in increments of .0001 for diameters less than .500
from catalogs. But I don't know if spiral fluted reamers are sold the
same way.
Eric
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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

wrote in message
...
If you are going to use the reamer idea can you make your own
reamer?
Then you can get the correct twist along with the correct diameter.
Of
course you may be able to get a reamer with a twist that works. I
have
ordered several straight flute reamers in custom sizes and they can
also be bought in increments of .0001 for diameters less than .500
from catalogs. But I don't know if spiral fluted reamers are sold
the
same way.
Eric


The price of entry to make precise spiral (helical) tooling is a
Universal Dividing Head geared to the milling machine table feed.
http://www.shars.com/products/view/3..._Dividing_Head

jsw


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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel


Isn't the point to learn a new skill and add capabilities to your shop?


I agree, but rifling a barrel is at the extreme upper limits of a good
professional machinist and requires quite a bit of specific tooling and
preparation for production of a single barrel. Also, you wouldn't be
making one barrel because its a steep learning curve and you could
easily do a dozen or more before producing one worth testing.

I bought several books on rifling from Lindsay just before they folded
and what I got was either suited to a muzzle loader barrel of large
caliber or old pre- WWI tech suited to mass production.



The key here is button rifling. You're just pushing a die down the
barrel. A qualty press set up and a $200 button, you're ready to go.

A quality gundrill setup is also not horribly difficult. Two keys
here, you need to feed down to 0.0002 "/rev and you need high pressure
coolant.

Karl


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Default Rifling a .177 cal air gun barrel

On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 09:28:06 -0700 (PDT), PCS
wrote:

T'all,

A few years ago I made a new barrel for an old German-made Hubertus .177 caliber air pistol.

Quite by accident, it came out pretty well:

https://plus.google.com/photos/11723...88823271886433

Since then I've probably plinked a thousand pellets thru it. Loads of fun for the G'kids.

At the time, I briefly looked for info on rifling such a small barrel, but found little available at this size.
My general understanding of the process is that a hardened button is pressed through a barrel to rifle it. I've never done this type of thing myself though.

I'm currently toying with the idea of making another barrel, as I've still plenty of the 20mm O1 steel I bought for the first barrel, but this time I'd like to see about rifling it.

Does anyone have any information on how I might go about making another rifled barrel for this caliber air gun?


Thanks,


http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/...-2-button.html

Why not simply look for a bit of rifled barrel "blank" and turn it to
the proper diameter? Or bore and glue it into a proper outer barrel?

..177 is readily available

http://www.homegunsmith.com/Archive/T1666.html


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