On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 16:39:58 +0000 (UTC), David Hartung
wrote:

What if Kim Davis were a Muslim?

There has been a lot of media coverage of the case of Kim Davis,
the county clerk in Kentucky who has been jailed for refusing to
issue marriage licenses to gay couples for religious reasons.
Everybody is coming down on one side or the other as if there is a
clear mark of demarcation. But this is a complicated case. It is
the clash of the rule of law, natural law, ethics, conscientious
objection, and civil disobedience.

Under the rule of law the laws must be obeyed and enforced. Under
natural law same-sex “marriage” does not exist. Under ethics there
is no obligation to obey an unjust law, and sometimes a duty to
disobey it. A person’s well-formed conscience is inviolable and
the First Amendment is supposed to protect conscience rights.
Anyone who engages in civil disobedience must accept the
consequences of their actions.

This is a textbook case of the quagmire a society gets itself into
when its civil laws are not in accord with natural law. Adding to
the confusion is that this case is being prosecuted rather than
seeking an accommodation for the clerk. There have been other
cases of the law being ignored or broken by elected officials, but
they didn’t cause a stir.

Our own attorney general refused to defend Virginia’s marriage law
which was enshrined in the state constitution, even though he
campaigned under the guise that he supported the law. But he’s not
in jail. He didn’t even get disbarred.

The sanctuary cities are in violation of Federal law. This policy
caused at least one innocent person to be murdered by someone who
didn’t deserve sanctuary. But so far nobody has been prosecuted.

So why is Kim Davis being prosecuted for violating the law under
these circumstances? Is it because she’s a Christian? What if she
were a Muslim?

If she were a Muslim, she wouldn't have been elected in the first
place.

But if she were, by some freakish chance that a majority in her county
were Muslims themselves, they would have been equally bigoted and
discriminatory, and for the same reason: they rule their lives on the
basis of ancient superstitions written by people who were so ignorant
that they thought toads generated spontaneously from mud puddles.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:12:16 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 16:39:58 +0000 (UTC), David Hartung
wrote:

What if Kim Davis were a Muslim?

There has been a lot of media coverage of the case of Kim Davis, the
county clerk in Kentucky who has been jailed for refusing to issue
marriage licenses to gay couples for religious reasons. Everybody is
coming down on one side or the other as if there is a clear mark of
demarcation. But this is a complicated case. It is the clash of the rule
of law, natural law, ethics, conscientious objection, and civil
disobedience.

Under the rule of law the laws must be obeyed and enforced. Under
natural law same-sex “marriage” does not exist. Under ethics there is
no
obligation to obey an unjust law, and sometimes a duty to disobey it. A
personÂ’s well-formed conscience is inviolable and the First Amendment
is
supposed to protect conscience rights. Anyone who engages in civil
disobedience must accept the consequences of their actions.

This is a textbook case of the quagmire a society gets itself into when
its civil laws are not in accord with natural law. Adding to the
confusion is that this case is being prosecuted rather than seeking an
accommodation for the clerk. There have been other cases of the law
being ignored or broken by elected officials, but they didnÂ’t cause a
stir.

Our own attorney general refused to defend VirginiaÂ’s marriage law
which
was enshrined in the state constitution, even though he campaigned under
the guise that he supported the law. But heÂ’s not in jail. He didnÂ’t
even get disbarred.

The sanctuary cities are in violation of Federal law. This policy caused
at least one innocent person to be murdered by someone who didnÂ’t
deserve sanctuary. But so far nobody has been prosecuted.

So why is Kim Davis being prosecuted for violating the law under these
circumstances? Is it because sheÂ’s a Christian? What if she were a
Muslim?

If she were a Muslim, she wouldn't have been elected in the first place.

But if she were, by some freakish chance that a majority in her county
were Muslims themselves, they would have been equally bigoted and
discriminatory, and for the same reason: they rule their lives on the
basis of ancient superstitions written by people who were so ignorant
that they thought toads generated spontaneously from mud puddles.

And who seem to think that random writings in a book written by the
religious right constitutes "natural" law.

--
www.wescottdesign.com

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:00:28 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:


But if she were, by some freakish chance that a majority in her county
were Muslims themselves, they would have been equally bigoted and
discriminatory, and for the same reason: they rule their lives on the
basis of ancient superstitions written by people who were so ignorant
that they thought toads generated spontaneously from mud puddles.

And who seem to think that random writings in a book written by the
religious right constitutes "natural" law.

And of course..so does the Religious Left. And yeah..there are just
as many of the Religious Left as there are of the Religious Right.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:59:16 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:00:28 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:


But if she were, by some freakish chance that a majority in her county
were Muslims themselves, they would have been equally bigoted and
discriminatory, and for the same reason: they rule their lives on the
basis of ancient superstitions written by people who were so ignorant
that they thought toads generated spontaneously from mud puddles.

And who seem to think that random writings in a book written by the
religious right constitutes "natural" law.

And of course..so does the Religious Left. And yeah..there are just
as many of the Religious Left as there are of the Religious Right.

sigh Unfortunately. Wars over religion have killed more people
than any other reason.

--
I merely took the energy it takes to pout and wrote some blues.
--Duke Ellington

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:42:45 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:59:16 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:00:28 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:


But if she were, by some freakish chance that a majority in her county
were Muslims themselves, they would have been equally bigoted and
discriminatory, and for the same reason: they rule their lives on the
basis of ancient superstitions written by people who were so ignorant
that they thought toads generated spontaneously from mud puddles.

And who seem to think that random writings in a book written by the
religious right constitutes "natural" law.

And of course..so does the Religious Left. And yeah..there are just
as many of the Religious Left as there are of the Religious Right.

sigh Unfortunately. Wars over religion have killed more people
than any other reason.

Well....the Communists killed off 234 Million people in the past 80
yrs...

Gunner

On 9/20/2015 10:27 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:42:45 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:59:16 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:00:28 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:


But if she were, by some freakish chance that a majority in her county
were Muslims themselves, they would have been equally bigoted and
discriminatory, and for the same reason: they rule their lives on the
basis of ancient superstitions written by people who were so ignorant
that they thought toads generated spontaneously from mud puddles.

And who seem to think that random writings in a book written by the
religious right constitutes "natural" law.

And of course..so does the Religious Left. And yeah..there are just
as many of the Religious Left as there are of the Religious Right.

sigh Unfortunately. Wars over religion have killed more people
than any other reason.

Well....the Communists killed off 234 Million people in the past 80
yrs...

100 million, according to your own source.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:27:17 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:42:45 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:59:16 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:00:28 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:


But if she were, by some freakish chance that a majority in her county
were Muslims themselves, they would have been equally bigoted and
discriminatory, and for the same reason: they rule their lives on the
basis of ancient superstitions written by people who were so ignorant
that they thought toads generated spontaneously from mud puddles.

And who seem to think that random writings in a book written by the
religious right constitutes "natural" law.

And of course..so does the Religious Left. And yeah..there are just
as many of the Religious Left as there are of the Religious Right.

sigh Unfortunately. Wars over religion have killed more people
than any other reason.

Well....the Communists killed off 234 Million people in the past 80
yrs...

Gunner
------------------------------
It can be argued (and I do) that "communism" and the other
"isms" are secular "theologies" in that much of their dogma
must be accepted "by faith alone."

This is not to say that the "isms" [including capitalism]
don't have "nuggets" of wisdom, which seem to correctly
describe some sociocultural dynamics, and correctly predict
the likely outcomes of particular actions, but none of these
are willing to critically evaluate their "models" by the
analysis of the massive amounts of accumulated data using
the available tools and methodology such as statistics
[econometrics], and rely on "appeals to authority." One
glaring example of this is the "Austrian" school of
economics which explicitly discourages empirical
verification of their socioeconomic/cultural claims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School
snip
Many economists are critical of the current-day Austrian
School and consider its rejection of econometrics and
aggregate macroeconomic analysis to be outside of mainstream
economic theory, or "heterodox."
/snip

One hopeful sign [from my perspective] is that people are
beginning to demand analysis and verifiable results in this
world from the "isms" that control their lives.
http://www.rt.com/op-edge/316023-mec...a-islam-saudi/

FWIW; Yes, I know that RT is Russia Today, and that this is
Pravda redux, but try to evaluate what was said, not the
"paper it was printed on."


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:22:32 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


snip


One hopeful sign [from my perspective] is that people are
beginning to demand analysis and verifiable results in this
world from the "isms" that control their lives.
http://www.rt.com/op-edge/316023-mec...a-islam-saudi/

I don't see how that supports your statement, George. And your
optimistic view seems curious in light of the candidacy of The Donald,
the anti-analyst with the unverifiable-fact campaign.

--
Ed Huntress



FWIW; Yes, I know that RT is Russia Today, and that this is
Pravda redux, but try to evaluate what was said, not the
"paper it was printed on."

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:27:17 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:42:45 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:59:16 -0700, Gunner Asch

wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:00:28 -0500, Tim Wescott

wrote:


But if she were, by some freakish chance that a majority in her
county
were Muslims themselves, they would have been equally bigoted
and
discriminatory, and for the same reason: they rule their lives
on the
basis of ancient superstitions written by people who were so
ignorant
that they thought toads generated spontaneously from mud
puddles.

And who seem to think that random writings in a book written by
the
religious right constitutes "natural" law.

And of course..so does the Religious Left. And yeah..there are
just
as many of the Religious Left as there are of the Religious Right.

sigh Unfortunately. Wars over religion have killed more people
than any other reason.

Well....the Communists killed off 234 Million people in the past 80
yrs...

Gunner
------------------------------
It can be argued (and I do) that "communism" and the other
"isms" are secular "theologies" in that much of their dogma
must be accepted "by faith alone."

This is not to say that the "isms" [including capitalism]
don't have "nuggets" of wisdom, which seem to correctly
describe some sociocultural dynamics, and correctly predict
the likely outcomes of particular actions, but none of these
are willing to critically evaluate their "models" by the
analysis of the massive amounts of accumulated data using
the available tools and methodology such as statistics
[econometrics], and rely on "appeals to authority." One
glaring example of this is the "Austrian" school of
economics which explicitly discourages empirical
verification of their socioeconomic/cultural claims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School
snip
Many economists are critical of the current-day Austrian
School and consider its rejection of econometrics and
aggregate macroeconomic analysis to be outside of mainstream
economic theory, or "heterodox."
/snip

One hopeful sign [from my perspective] is that people are
beginning to demand analysis and verifiable results in this
world from the "isms" that control their lives.
http://www.rt.com/op-edge/316023-mec...a-islam-saudi/

FWIW; Yes, I know that RT is Russia Today, and that this is
Pravda redux, but try to evaluate what was said, not the
"paper it was printed on."


--
Unka' George

What you describe is a relic of Aristotelian physics, which dismissed
experimentation as subjective and unreliable, very true in his
mechanically primitive era.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotelian_physics

There is still a disconnect between theoretical and experimental
scientists, which I suspect is partly due to the possession or lack of
practical skill that divides them. I saw that personally when eminent
department heads brought me broken earphone plugs etc to resolder.

This which was just released on Gutenberg presents the dichotomy from
the experimentalist's viewpoint. The author was also an inventor.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/50022

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_demon

-jsw

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:22:32 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:27:17 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:42:45 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:59:16 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:00:28 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:


But if she were, by some freakish chance that a majority in her county
were Muslims themselves, they would have been equally bigoted and
discriminatory, and for the same reason: they rule their lives on the
basis of ancient superstitions written by people who were so ignorant
that they thought toads generated spontaneously from mud puddles.

And who seem to think that random writings in a book written by the
religious right constitutes "natural" law.

And of course..so does the Religious Left. And yeah..there are just
as many of the Religious Left as there are of the Religious Right.

sigh Unfortunately. Wars over religion have killed more people
than any other reason.

Well....the Communists killed off 234 Million people in the past 80
yrs...

Gunner
------------------------------
It can be argued (and I do) that "communism" and the other
"isms" are secular "theologies" in that much of their dogma
must be accepted "by faith alone."

This is not to say that the "isms" [including capitalism]
don't have "nuggets" of wisdom, which seem to correctly
describe some sociocultural dynamics, and correctly predict
the likely outcomes of particular actions, but none of these
are willing to critically evaluate their "models" by the
analysis of the massive amounts of accumulated data using
the available tools and methodology such as statistics
[econometrics], and rely on "appeals to authority." One
glaring example of this is the "Austrian" school of
economics which explicitly discourages empirical
verification of their socioeconomic/cultural claims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School
snip
Many economists are critical of the current-day Austrian
School and consider its rejection of econometrics and
aggregate macroeconomic analysis to be outside of mainstream
economic theory, or "heterodox."
/snip

One hopeful sign [from my perspective] is that people are
beginning to demand analysis and verifiable results in this
world from the "isms" that control their lives.
http://www.rt.com/op-edge/316023-mec...a-islam-saudi/

FWIW; Yes, I know that RT is Russia Today, and that this is
Pravda redux, but try to evaluate what was said, not the
"paper it was printed on."


Of course. I might add that Russia has taken capitalism and run with
it. Unfortunately they remain hobbled by cultural history and the
remnants of Soviet proletariat who managed to seize control of many
power bases...at least temporarily.

Shrug

Im tickled to see that people are demanding analysis and verifiable
results from government and science. I just wish they would do the
same with culture.

The Chicoms have done a much better job of it, with far more immediate
results.

Gunner

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:38:21 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

snip
Im tickled to see that people are demanding analysis and verifiable
results from government and science. I just wish they would do the
same with culture.

The Chicoms have done a much better job of it, with far more immediate
results.
---------------------
IMNSHO government, economy, culture, etc. is one great big
blob created by man, and the 'ologies/'isms are just
different views of the elephant.
http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/..._elephant.html

It is worth remembering that the PRC got their results at a
very high human cost, comparable to the "black death"
pandemics that destabilized the manorial system in Europe,
triggering the reformation, allowing the renaissance to
grow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

With the exception of the Scandinavian transformation from
Europe's socioeconomic backwater in the late 1800s to
today's showplaces of Social Democracy, it now appears that
all significant socioeconomic and cultural changes both
result from and cause enormous civil unrest and bloodshed.

It is to be hoped [but it is not likely] that some effort
will be made to determine how to introduce the new factors
such as artificial intelligence, nanotechonolgy, and
bioengineering with minimal societal disruption.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:49:50 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:38:21 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

snip
Im tickled to see that people are demanding analysis and verifiable
results from government and science. I just wish they would do the
same with culture.

The Chicoms have done a much better job of it, with far more immediate
results.
---------------------
IMNSHO government, economy, culture, etc. is one great big
blob created by man, and the 'ologies/'isms are just
different views of the elephant.
http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/..._elephant.html

It is worth remembering that the PRC got their results at a
very high human cost, comparable to the "black death"
pandemics that destabilized the manorial system in Europe,
triggering the reformation, allowing the renaissance to
grow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

Indeed it did.

With the exception of the Scandinavian transformation from
Europe's socioeconomic backwater in the late 1800s to
today's showplaces of Social Democracy, it now appears that
all significant socioeconomic and cultural changes both
result from and cause enormous civil unrest and bloodshed.

But of course. And the Scandinavian model is distancing itself from
Socialism at a resounding rate. They found it simply doesnt work.

It is to be hoped [but it is not likely] that some effort
will be made to determine how to introduce the new factors
such as artificial intelligence, nanotechonolgy, and
bioengineering with minimal societal disruption.

Good luck with that.

The Industrial Revolution, like the other "technical revolutions"
before it...gave us social revolutions..virtually all of them bloody

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States...al_Revolutions

And I include the beginning of the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, Gutenberg
(a special case all by itself), the Nuclear Age, and the Information
Age.

We will continue to advance(?).as soon as the last bits and figments
of the abortive Socialist Age are plowed into mass graves.

Gunner

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:22:32 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:27:17 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:42:45 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:59:16 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:00:28 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:


But if she were, by some freakish chance that a majority in her county
were Muslims themselves, they would have been equally bigoted and
discriminatory, and for the same reason: they rule their lives on the
basis of ancient superstitions written by people who were so ignorant
that they thought toads generated spontaneously from mud puddles.

And who seem to think that random writings in a book written by the
religious right constitutes "natural" law.

And of course..so does the Religious Left. And yeah..there are just
as many of the Religious Left as there are of the Religious Right.

sigh Unfortunately. Wars over religion have killed more people
than any other reason.

Well....the Communists killed off 234 Million people in the past 80
yrs...

Gunner
------------------------------
It can be argued (and I do) that "communism" and the other
"isms" are secular "theologies" in that much of their dogma
must be accepted "by faith alone."

This is not to say that the "isms" [including capitalism]
don't have "nuggets" of wisdom, which seem to correctly
describe some sociocultural dynamics, and correctly predict
the likely outcomes of particular actions, but none of these
are willing to critically evaluate their "models" by the
analysis of the massive amounts of accumulated data using
the available tools and methodology such as statistics
[econometrics], and rely on "appeals to authority." One
glaring example of this is the "Austrian" school of
economics which explicitly discourages empirical
verification of their socioeconomic/cultural claims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School
snip
Many economists are critical of the current-day Austrian
School and consider its rejection of econometrics and
aggregate macroeconomic analysis to be outside of mainstream
economic theory, or "heterodox."
/snip

One hopeful sign [from my perspective] is that people are
beginning to demand analysis and verifiable results in this
world from the "isms" that control their lives.
http://www.rt.com/op-edge/316023-mec...a-islam-saudi/

I suspect that (from having lived for 20 years in an essentially
Moslem country) that your analysis (above) is more a matter or
economics rather than a fundamental philosophical argument. Do you
have any idea how much money the Hajj brings in each and every year?

The Koran says one should (if possible) make a pilgrimage to Mecca in
one's lifetime. This custom seems to have dating back to a time before
Mohammed, and actually the radical concept of only one god was seems
to have been rejected by the people of Mecca largely because of the
possibly loss of income of the many pilgrims to the many gods in
Mecca. (Basic economics, many gods = many pilgrims; one god = few
pilgrims )

--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:27:17 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:42:45 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:59:16 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:00:28 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:


But if she were, by some freakish chance that a majority in her county
were Muslims themselves, they would have been equally bigoted and
discriminatory, and for the same reason: they rule their lives on the
basis of ancient superstitions written by people who were so ignorant
that they thought toads generated spontaneously from mud puddles.

And who seem to think that random writings in a book written by the
religious right constitutes "natural" law.

And of course..so does the Religious Left. And yeah..there are just
as many of the Religious Left as there are of the Religious Right.

sigh Unfortunately. Wars over religion have killed more people
than any other reason.

Well....the Communists killed off 234 Million people in the past 80
yrs...

It's neck and neck, but a lot of ISMs go after religious followers.

--
I merely took the energy it takes to pout and wrote some blues.
--Duke Ellington