I have an old (1935) Kitchen Aid mixer that needed re-greasing about
15 years ago. I could tell because it was having a hard time starting
up. So I took it apart and cleaned every last trace of the dried out
old grease out. It looked like it was probably originally white
lithium base grease so that's what I used when I re-greased it. A few
months ago it started acting again like the grease was getting too
stiff. This time the grease turned into glue. I took the gearbox apart
and tried washing the grease out with stoddard solvent and the solvent
hardly touches the stuff. It has to be removed with a stiff brush.
Anyway, I got most of the grease out and have been looking for a good
grease to put back into the gearbox. I ordered some food safe grease
and today decided to wash the last traces of the old grease out but I
cannot get the transmission to come completely apart now because a
couple shafts refuse to turn and they need to be turned so I can get
at a retaining pin. I stick a 5/32 allen wrench through a pin hole in
the output shaft to turn it and the allen wrench bent. The shaft still
won't turn. What could cause this grease to do what it did?
Thanks,
Eric

fired this volley in
:

What could cause this grease to do what it did?

Soap. Most 'greases' are suspensions of an oil in a soap. Once the oil
has evaporated or been expelled by heat, the soap congeals and finally
dries and hardens.

And soap is NOT soluble in mineral spirits. Water would likely have
cleaned it up faster.

Lloyd

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:07:54 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

fired this volley in
:

What could cause this grease to do what it did?

Soap. Most 'greases' are suspensions of an oil in a soap. Once the oil
has evaporated or been expelled by heat, the soap congeals and finally
dries and hardens.

And soap is NOT soluble in mineral spirits. Water would likely have
cleaned it up faster.

Caviat: this is based on theory, not experience.

It may not be too late. Try soaking in hot water, or even boiling it. A
bit of dishwashing detergent in the mix might cut through any solvents
left in there.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 21:00:50 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:07:54 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

fired this volley in
:

What could cause this grease to do what it did?

Soap. Most 'greases' are suspensions of an oil in a soap. Once the oil
has evaporated or been expelled by heat, the soap congeals and finally
dries and hardens.

And soap is NOT soluble in mineral spirits. Water would likely have
cleaned it up faster.

Caviat: this is based on theory, not experience.

It may not be too late. Try soaking in hot water, or even boiling it. A
bit of dishwashing detergent in the mix might cut through any solvents
left in there.

The"soap" used in greases is metallic soap. It is not what we
generally think of as "soap" and it doesn't behave like soaps we use
in other contexts. Typically it is made from metal compounds reacted
with acid, not with fats reacted with alkali, like the soaps we're
familiar with, and it isn't generally water soluble.

There are several metal soaps used in greases and they behave
differently, but they're all difficult to dissolve. Some, like lithium
soap, are slightly soluble in water. Most are not.

They aren't soluble in most common solvents, either. You can try
propylene glycol or even antifreeze and see if it works. It will
chemically attack a few of the metallic soaps.

Otherwise, I have had success in the past using gasoline to dissolve
the gunk from ancient lithium grease (white grease). Maybe it depends
on how hard the grease has become, and how much petroleum-based oil
still remains in it. I suspect, but don't know, that I had success
with that because there was enough oil left in it to take the soap
with it when the oil was diluted with the gasoline.

--
Ed Huntress

In article , Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:07:54 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

fired this volley in
:

What could cause this grease to do what it did?

Soap. Most 'greases' are suspensions of an oil in a soap. Once the oil
has evaporated or been expelled by heat, the soap congeals and finally
dries and hardens.

And soap is NOT soluble in mineral spirits. Water would likely have
cleaned it up faster.

Caviat: this is based on theory, not experience.

It may not be too late. Try soaking in hot water, or even boiling it. A
bit of dishwashing detergent in the mix might cut through any solvents
left in there.

Acetone can also help.

Joe Gwinn

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:18:18 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 21:00:50 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:07:54 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

fired this volley in
:

What could cause this grease to do what it did?

Soap. Most 'greases' are suspensions of an oil in a soap. Once the
oil has evaporated or been expelled by heat, the soap congeals and
finally dries and hardens.

And soap is NOT soluble in mineral spirits. Water would likely have
cleaned it up faster.

Caviat: this is based on theory, not experience.

It may not be too late. Try soaking in hot water, or even boiling it.
A bit of dishwashing detergent in the mix might cut through any solvents
left in there.

The"soap" used in greases is metallic soap. It is not what we generally
think of as "soap" and it doesn't behave like soaps we use in other
contexts. Typically it is made from metal compounds reacted with acid,
not with fats reacted with alkali, like the soaps we're familiar with,
and it isn't generally water soluble.

There are several metal soaps used in greases and they behave
differently, but they're all difficult to dissolve. Some, like lithium
soap, are slightly soluble in water. Most are not.

They aren't soluble in most common solvents, either. You can try
propylene glycol or even antifreeze and see if it works. It will
chemically attack a few of the metallic soaps.

Otherwise, I have had success in the past using gasoline to dissolve the
gunk from ancient lithium grease (white grease). Maybe it depends on how
hard the grease has become, and how much petroleum-based oil still
remains in it. I suspect, but don't know, that I had success with that
because there was enough oil left in it to take the soap with it when
the oil was diluted with the gasoline.

I was thinking that the heat would loosen things up as much as anything.
But yes, I shouldn't be thinking "soap = water soluable", particularly
when you're talking about grease.

--
www.wescottdesign.com

In article , Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:07:54 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

fired this volley in
:

What could cause this grease to do what it did?

Soap. Most 'greases' are suspensions of an oil in a soap. Once the oil
has evaporated or been expelled by heat, the soap congeals and finally
dries and hardens.

And soap is NOT soluble in mineral spirits. Water would likely have
cleaned it up faster.

Caviat: this is based on theory, not experience.

It may not be too late. Try soaking in hot water, or even boiling it. A
bit of dishwashing detergent in the mix might cut through any solvents
left in there.

Acetone can also help.

Joe Gwinn

As can Naptha.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:33:24 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:18:18 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 21:00:50 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:07:54 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

fired this volley in
:

What could cause this grease to do what it did?

Soap. Most 'greases' are suspensions of an oil in a soap. Once the
oil has evaporated or been expelled by heat, the soap congeals and
finally dries and hardens.

And soap is NOT soluble in mineral spirits. Water would likely have
cleaned it up faster.

Caviat: this is based on theory, not experience.

It may not be too late. Try soaking in hot water, or even boiling it.
A bit of dishwashing detergent in the mix might cut through any solvents
left in there.

The"soap" used in greases is metallic soap. It is not what we generally
think of as "soap" and it doesn't behave like soaps we use in other
contexts. Typically it is made from metal compounds reacted with acid,
not with fats reacted with alkali, like the soaps we're familiar with,
and it isn't generally water soluble.

There are several metal soaps used in greases and they behave
differently, but they're all difficult to dissolve. Some, like lithium
soap, are slightly soluble in water. Most are not.

They aren't soluble in most common solvents, either. You can try
propylene glycol or even antifreeze and see if it works. It will
chemically attack a few of the metallic soaps.

Otherwise, I have had success in the past using gasoline to dissolve the
gunk from ancient lithium grease (white grease). Maybe it depends on how
hard the grease has become, and how much petroleum-based oil still
remains in it. I suspect, but don't know, that I had success with that
because there was enough oil left in it to take the soap with it when
the oil was diluted with the gasoline.

I was thinking that the heat would loosen things up as much as anything.

Yeah, well, maybe it will. I haven't tried it.

But yes, I shouldn't be thinking "soap = water soluable", particularly
when you're talking about grease.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:37:59 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:07:54 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

fired this volley in
:

What could cause this grease to do what it did?

Soap. Most 'greases' are suspensions of an oil in a soap. Once the oil
has evaporated or been expelled by heat, the soap congeals and finally
dries and hardens.

And soap is NOT soluble in mineral spirits. Water would likely have
cleaned it up faster.

Caviat: this is based on theory, not experience.

It may not be too late. Try soaking in hot water, or even boiling it. A
bit of dishwashing detergent in the mix might cut through any solvents
left in there.

Acetone can also help.

Joe Gwinn
I last night put the planetary assembly part of the mixer into a jar
with acetone and shook it up. No dissolving. This morning the grease
has still not dissolved in the acetone. Break Free brand penetrating
oil does dissolve the old grease. Slowly.
Eric

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:18:18 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 21:00:50 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:07:54 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

fired this volley in
:

What could cause this grease to do what it did?

Soap. Most 'greases' are suspensions of an oil in a soap. Once the oil
has evaporated or been expelled by heat, the soap congeals and finally
dries and hardens.

And soap is NOT soluble in mineral spirits. Water would likely have
cleaned it up faster.

Caviat: this is based on theory, not experience.

It may not be too late. Try soaking in hot water, or even boiling it. A
bit of dishwashing detergent in the mix might cut through any solvents
left in there.

The"soap" used in greases is metallic soap. It is not what we
generally think of as "soap" and it doesn't behave like soaps we use
in other contexts. Typically it is made from metal compounds reacted
with acid, not with fats reacted with alkali, like the soaps we're
familiar with, and it isn't generally water soluble.

There are several metal soaps used in greases and they behave
differently, but they're all difficult to dissolve. Some, like lithium
soap, are slightly soluble in water. Most are not.

They aren't soluble in most common solvents, either. You can try
propylene glycol or even antifreeze and see if it works. It will
chemically attack a few of the metallic soaps.

Otherwise, I have had success in the past using gasoline to dissolve
the gunk from ancient lithium grease (white grease). Maybe it depends
on how hard the grease has become, and how much petroleum-based oil
still remains in it. I suspect, but don't know, that I had success
with that because there was enough oil left in it to take the soap
with it when the oil was diluted with the gasoline.
The strange thing about this grease is that it did not dry out like
the old grease did. It instead turned into very sticky paste. There
was no evidence of free oil like I have seen many times when grease
starts to break down.
Eric

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:02:35 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:37:59 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:07:54 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

fired this volley in
:

What could cause this grease to do what it did?

Soap. Most 'greases' are suspensions of an oil in a soap. Once the oil
has evaporated or been expelled by heat, the soap congeals and finally
dries and hardens.

And soap is NOT soluble in mineral spirits. Water would likely have
cleaned it up faster.

Caviat: this is based on theory, not experience.

It may not be too late. Try soaking in hot water, or even boiling it. A
bit of dishwashing detergent in the mix might cut through any solvents
left in there.

Acetone can also help.

Joe Gwinn
I last night put the planetary assembly part of the mixer into a jar
with acetone and shook it up. No dissolving. This morning the grease
has still not dissolved in the acetone. Break Free brand penetrating
oil does dissolve the old grease. Slowly.
Eric

I don't know what you're got there, but I'd try gasoline.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

The"soap" used in greases is metallic soap. It is not what we
generally think of as "soap" and it doesn't behave like soaps we use
in other contexts. Typically it is made from metal compounds reacted
with acid, not with fats reacted with alkali, like the soaps we're
familiar with, and it isn't generally water soluble.


Sorry... that's not even close, Ed. Even the soap you use in your
bathroom is a "metallic soap", unless you don't include sodium or
potassium in your list of metallic elements.

Bath soap is usually a strongly alkaline substance like sodium or
potassium hydroxide mixed with animal fat or vegetable fat, then allowed
to 'saponify' (turn to soap, in English).

The soaps for lubricating greases are strongly alkaline substances (like
lithium hydroxide) mixed with FATTY ACIDS (that is NOT an 'acid' like you
cite... you'd make folks think sulfuric or nitric or hydrochloric). They
typically use stearine. But guess what? Sterine is a room-temperature-
solid fatty acid derived from pork fat or beef fat.

The fatty acid will react to form the 'lipid tail' with an alkaline
'head' -- JUST like bath soap. The tail attracts oils, the head water.
So it can emulsify oily things into a water suspension -- not actually a
'solution'.

So, in all, the soaps used to make lubricating greases are JUST like bath
soap, except for their choice of alkali metal salts that are non-
corrosive.

Lloyd

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:23:50 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

The"soap" used in greases is metallic soap. It is not what we
generally think of as "soap" and it doesn't behave like soaps we use
in other contexts. Typically it is made from metal compounds reacted
with acid, not with fats reacted with alkali, like the soaps we're
familiar with, and it isn't generally water soluble.


Sorry... that's not even close, Ed. Even the soap you use in your
bathroom is a "metallic soap", unless you don't include sodium or
potassium in your list of metallic elements.

Bath soap is usually a strongly alkaline substance like sodium or
potassium hydroxide mixed with animal fat or vegetable fat, then allowed
to 'saponify' (turn to soap, in English).

The soaps for lubricating greases are strongly alkaline substances (like
lithium hydroxide) mixed with FATTY ACIDS (that is NOT an 'acid' like you
cite... you'd make folks think sulfuric or nitric or hydrochloric). They
typically use stearine. But guess what? Sterine is a room-temperature-
solid fatty acid derived from pork fat or beef fat.

The fatty acid will react to form the 'lipid tail' with an alkaline
'head' -- JUST like bath soap. The tail attracts oils, the head water.
So it can emulsify oily things into a water suspension -- not actually a
'solution'.

So, in all, the soaps used to make lubricating greases are JUST like bath
soap, except for their choice of alkali metal salts that are non-
corrosive.

Lloyd

Except that most of the metallic soaps used in greases and dryers are
not water-soluble, regardless of how you want to describe the
chemistry.

The key point is that they don't behave at all like the water-soluble
bath soaps and other soaps we're familiar with. Lithium soap is
slightly water-soluble, but most others are not.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

The key point is that they don't behave at all like the water-soluble
bath soaps and other soaps we're familiar with. Lithium soap is
slightly water-soluble, but most others are not.


I agree with your solubility claim, but that is NOT the 'key point'. The
key point is you completely mis-represented the chemistry to people who
may not all be chemists (or empirical ones).

There's a reason auto machine shops use hot steam washers to remove
grease. Think about that.

Lloyd

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 13:09:40 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

The key point is that they don't behave at all like the water-soluble
bath soaps and other soaps we're familiar with. Lithium soap is
slightly water-soluble, but most others are not.


I agree with your solubility claim, but that is NOT the 'key point'.

It's the key point in this discussion, because the OP is looking for
ways to dissolve the crud. One suggestion involved water. That's why I
posted that comment about how metallic soaps are different from bath
soaps.

The key point is you completely mis-represented the chemistry to people who
may not all be chemists (or empirical ones).

Well, I won't argue it, because I'm not a chemistry guy. That's how
it's been described to me by lubricating companies. They make a big
point of the fact that the metallic soaps, at least the ones used to
thicken grease, are very different from the soaps we're familiar with.
Some are stringy, like in wheel-bearing grease; others are smooth;
most are insoluble in water.


There's a reason auto machine shops use hot steam washers to remove
grease. Think about that.

Steam is hot, for starters.

--
Ed Huntress


Lloyd

Hot and breaks down some bonds, activating motion in others.

Good idea. Likely why some RF vibration tanks have heaters inside.
Mine does.

Martin

On 9/19/2015 1:21 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 13:09:40 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

The key point is that they don't behave at all like the water-soluble
bath soaps and other soaps we're familiar with. Lithium soap is
slightly water-soluble, but most others are not.


I agree with your solubility claim, but that is NOT the 'key point'.

It's the key point in this discussion, because the OP is looking for
ways to dissolve the crud. One suggestion involved water. That's why I
posted that comment about how metallic soaps are different from bath
soaps.

The key point is you completely mis-represented the chemistry to people who
may not all be chemists (or empirical ones).

Well, I won't argue it, because I'm not a chemistry guy. That's how
it's been described to me by lubricating companies. They make a big
point of the fact that the metallic soaps, at least the ones used to
thicken grease, are very different from the soaps we're familiar with.
Some are stringy, like in wheel-bearing grease; others are smooth;
most are insoluble in water.


There's a reason auto machine shops use hot steam washers to remove
grease. Think about that.

Steam is hot, for starters.

How about brake or transmission fluid ?

Martin

On 9/19/2015 12:02 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:37:59 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:07:54 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

fired this volley in
:

What could cause this grease to do what it did?

Soap. Most 'greases' are suspensions of an oil in a soap. Once the oil
has evaporated or been expelled by heat, the soap congeals and finally
dries and hardens.

And soap is NOT soluble in mineral spirits. Water would likely have
cleaned it up faster.

Caviat: this is based on theory, not experience.

It may not be too late. Try soaking in hot water, or even boiling it. A
bit of dishwashing detergent in the mix might cut through any solvents
left in there.

Acetone can also help.

Joe Gwinn
I last night put the planetary assembly part of the mixer into a jar
with acetone and shook it up. No dissolving. This morning the grease
has still not dissolved in the acetone. Break Free brand penetrating
oil does dissolve the old grease. Slowly.
Eric