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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
Problem statement:
Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
... Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? In the alarm industry rare earth magnets are often used for problem or difficult installation situations. Perhaps a magnet like this with a screw mounting hole might be of some use to you. http://grisk.com/recessed/mighty_mag.html I would think even using epoxy and a light interference fit with the resin squeezing up through the hole, or the use of a screw would work fairly well. To be fair, we do not typically use these in a high vibration environment in the alarm industry, but magnetic reed switches and magnets are often used on machinery where abrasive grit will work into most other types of switches and destroy them. I would expect there is some vibration in those environments. Anyway, the rare earth magnets pictured on that page might give you other options. Drop me a line if you like. alarm(underscore)wizard dfkgjs-to-confuse-email-harvesters-asljdprhrtph (at)hotmail(dot)com I have found when using a raw bare metal rare earth magnet they will not hold up to more than the lightest interference fit. In practice we often get them already glued into a plastic sleeve which will take a rather firm interference fit, and is how they are typically installed such as the magnets on this page. http://grisk.com/recessed/20rs.html I would point out that a rare earth magnet may have to wide of a magnetic field for optimum detection by your sensor. As it spins past it will be detected for a wider range of travel. Depending on the sensing speed of your sensor, its reset time, and the distance from the axis of rotation you may wind up with a continuous or nearly continuous activation. |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
... "Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? In the alarm industry rare earth magnets are often used for problem or difficult installation situations. Perhaps a magnet like this with a screw mounting hole might be of some use to you. http://grisk.com/recessed/mighty_mag.html I would think even using epoxy and a light interference fit with the resin squeezing up through the hole, or the use of a screw would work fairly well. To be fair, we do not typically use these in a high vibration environment in the alarm industry, but magnetic reed switches and magnets are often used on machinery where abrasive grit will work into most other types of switches and destroy them. I would expect there is some vibration in those environments. Anyway, the rare earth magnets pictured on that page might give you other options. Drop me a line if you like. alarm(underscore)wizard dfkgjs-to-confuse-email-harvesters-asljdprhrtph (at)hotmail(dot)com I have found when using a raw bare metal rare earth magnet they will not hold up to more than the lightest interference fit. In practice we often get them already glued into a plastic sleeve which will take a rather firm interference fit, and is how they are typically installed such as the magnets on this page. http://grisk.com/recessed/20rs.html I would point out that a rare earth magnet may have to wide of a magnetic field for optimum detection by your sensor. As it spins past it will be detected for a wider range of travel. Depending on the sensing speed of your sensor, its reset time, and the distance from the axis of rotation you may wind up with a continuous or nearly continuous activation. I would point out that a reed switch is far to slow to be an adequate sensor for your application. I just used them as a reference item in the uses of which I am accustomed. |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Thu, 1 May 2014 09:28:19 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: "Tim Wescott" wrote in message m... Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? In the alarm industry rare earth magnets are often used for problem or difficult installation situations. Perhaps a magnet like this with a screw mounting hole might be of some use to you. http://grisk.com/recessed/mighty_mag.html I would think even using epoxy and a light interference fit with the resin squeezing up through the hole, or the use of a screw would work fairly well. To be fair, we do not typically use these in a high vibration environment in the alarm industry, but magnetic reed switches and magnets are often used on machinery where abrasive grit will work into most other types of switches and destroy them. I would expect there is some vibration in those environments. Anyway, the rare earth magnets pictured on that page might give you other options. Drop me a line if you like. alarm(underscore)wizard dfkgjs-to-confuse-email-harvesters-asljdprhrtph (at)hotmail(dot)com I have found when using a raw bare metal rare earth magnet they will not hold up to more than the lightest interference fit. In practice we often get them already glued into a plastic sleeve which will take a rather firm interference fit, and is how they are typically installed such as the magnets on this page. http://grisk.com/recessed/20rs.html I would point out that a rare earth magnet may have to wide of a magnetic field for optimum detection by your sensor. As it spins past it will be detected for a wider range of travel. Depending on the sensing speed of your sensor, its reset time, and the distance from the axis of rotation you may wind up with a continuous or nearly continuous activation. Well stated. -- " I was once told by a “gun safety” advocate back in the Nineties that he favored total civilian firearms confiscation. Only the military and police should have weapons he averred and what did I think about that? I began to give him a reasoned answer and he cut me off with an abrupt, “Give me the short answer.” I thought for a moment and said, “If you try to take our firearms we will kill you.”" |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
Tim Wescott fired this volley in
: The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? Yup. I use them all the time for Hall-Sensor magnets on my machines. Drilling slightly over-size and potting them completely works sometimes. For more rigorous environments, consider sandwiching them between two plates, each drilled half-way, and with the magnet potted and the plates epoxied together. LLoyd |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Thursday, May 1, 2014 12:12:52 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote:
Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? Maybe an over size hole, epoxy and then a cover plate/tab that's held with a screw. What's your detector? Could you use an LED and photo diode? George H. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Thursday, May 1, 2014 5:35:18 PM UTC-4, Clare wrote:
On Thu, 1 May 2014 10:15:48 -0700 (PDT), wrote: snip Maybe an over size hole, epoxy and then a cover plate/tab that's held with a screw. What's your detector? Could you use an LED and photo diode? George H. Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Works good with a reflective spot on the back of the spinner and a photo-tach. Or like a lot of the model plane guys do, a shiny tip on the prop, and a phototach reading out at the tip instrad of at the hub - better chance of getting accuracy at speed. Maybe some of the nice retro reflective tape that 3M makes? George H. |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Thu, 01 May 2014 10:15:48 -0700, ggherold wrote:
On Thursday, May 1, 2014 12:12:52 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote: Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? Maybe an over size hole, epoxy and then a cover plate/tab that's held with a screw. What's your detector? Could you use an LED and photo diode? It's in a very uncontrolled environment both for dirt and for light (it's gotta work in full sun, in just about every conceivable orientation), and there's no room to shoot light through an aperture -- it would have to be reflective. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 01 May 2014 10:15:48 -0700, ggherold wrote: On Thursday, May 1, 2014 12:12:52 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote: Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? Maybe an over size hole, epoxy and then a cover plate/tab that's held with a screw. What's your detector? Could you use an LED and photo diode? It's in a very uncontrolled environment both for dirt and for light (it's gotta work in full sun, in just about every conceivable orientation), and there's no room to shoot light through an aperture -- it would have to be reflective. No aperture needed for a photodetector sensor. Go find an old VCR and rip out one of the IR spindle sensors and its reflector. The sensor is the size of a TO-92 case transistor. You can simply blacken the rear of the spinner and polish 2 spots on it to act as the reflectors. Mill a recess a couple thousands into the back of the spinner for the sensor to tuck into and it should be fine. something like this.. http://www.marktechopto.com/img/prod...-reflector.jpg -- Steve W. |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Thursday, May 1, 2014 11:20:44 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 01 May 2014 10:15:48 -0700, ggherold wrote: snip What's your detector? Could you use an LED and photo diode? It's in a very uncontrolled environment both for dirt and for light (it's gotta work in full sun, in just about every conceivable orientation), and there's no room to shoot light through an aperture -- it would have to be reflective. Hi Tim, I've never done light detection in full sunlight, so I may be full of ****. But there is some nice 3M retro reflective tape that Phil H. (of SED) turned me on to. As long as you have enough dynamic range in the detector (to take care of full sun) cna't you you then AC couple the signal? (White leds are blinding these days.) (Will it kill you if you get a few false counts as full sun blinks through the spinner onto the detector. That's going to be a very small solid angle) I've no answer for dirt and grease. George H. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Fri, 02 May 2014 08:53:21 -0700, ggherold wrote:
On Thursday, May 1, 2014 11:20:44 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote: On Thu, 01 May 2014 10:15:48 -0700, ggherold wrote: snip What's your detector? Could you use an LED and photo diode? It's in a very uncontrolled environment both for dirt and for light (it's gotta work in full sun, in just about every conceivable orientation), and there's no room to shoot light through an aperture -- it would have to be reflective. Hi Tim, I've never done light detection in full sunlight, so I may be full of ****. But there is some nice 3M retro reflective tape that Phil H. (of SED) turned me on to. As long as you have enough dynamic range in the detector (to take care of full sun) cna't you you then AC couple the signal? (White leds are blinding these days.) (Will it kill you if you get a few false counts as full sun blinks through the spinner onto the detector. That's going to be a very small solid angle) I've no answer for dirt and grease. I am starting to think in terms of opto -- but usually the decision tree for industrial equipment for optical vs. magnetic starts with "will there be dirt on the surfaces?" -- if the answer is "yes", then the following box says "use magnetic sensing". The spinner comes with big lightening holes, much larger than the magnet I'm thinking of using. I'm considering making up some high strength epoxy putty with some chopped carbon fiber strand and microballoons, and holding the magnet in with that. It's kind of a cro-magnon solution, but it may work. Now, if only someone made rare-earth magnets in the form of little screws, I'd be all set! -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Fri, 02 May 2014 12:53:09 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote: On Fri, 02 May 2014 08:53:21 -0700, ggherold wrote: On Thursday, May 1, 2014 11:20:44 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote: On Thu, 01 May 2014 10:15:48 -0700, ggherold wrote: snip What's your detector? Could you use an LED and photo diode? It's in a very uncontrolled environment both for dirt and for light (it's gotta work in full sun, in just about every conceivable orientation), and there's no room to shoot light through an aperture -- it would have to be reflective. Hi Tim, I've never done light detection in full sunlight, so I may be full of ****. But there is some nice 3M retro reflective tape that Phil H. (of SED) turned me on to. As long as you have enough dynamic range in the detector (to take care of full sun) cna't you you then AC couple the signal? (White leds are blinding these days.) (Will it kill you if you get a few false counts as full sun blinks through the spinner onto the detector. That's going to be a very small solid angle) I've no answer for dirt and grease. I am starting to think in terms of opto -- but usually the decision tree for industrial equipment for optical vs. magnetic starts with "will there be dirt on the surfaces?" -- if the answer is "yes", then the following box says "use magnetic sensing". The spinner comes with big lightening holes, much larger than the magnet I'm thinking of using. I'm considering making up some high strength epoxy putty with some chopped carbon fiber strand and microballoons, and holding the magnet in with that. It's kind of a cro-magnon solution, but it may work. Now, if only someone made rare-earth magnets in the form of little screws, I'd be all set! A sort of left hand turn off the topic but why not just use an optical tach for setting static speeds and (perhaps) and acustic tach to calculate the increase in rpm when flying? One example: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...viery.rpmgauge -- Cheers, John B. (invalid to gmail) |
#14
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On 5/1/2014 12:12 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? I use silicone, it's more resistant to vibration that epoxy. |
#15
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Thursday, May 1, 2014 12:12:52 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote:
Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). Maka a steel button slightly larger in dia than your magnet. Press the steel button into a hole and let the magnet field hold the magnet to the button. While you are doing this make another steel button so that it weighs as much as the first steel button plus the magnet. Press fit this button in a hole to balance the weight of magnet, etc. Dan |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On 5/1/2014 11:12 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? How big is the spinner, Tim? Is there room to mount a magnet with a center hole - AND a short steel cross bar (arms) inside the spinner? Getting the magnet located at the center of the shaft would reduce the effects of vibration (impact impulses) and G loads on the magnet itself. That's going to double the pulse rate, but it would fer-sure be easier to balance! IF the polarity will allow it, anyway... What RPM are you talking about? |
#17
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Thu, 01 May 2014 11:12:52 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote: Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? Easiest way is slip fit and epoxy. Best way is 2 peices, with relief machined in both halves, with the magnet sandwiched between, held in the hole with epoxy or silicone or polyurethane glue, Or better yet, use radially mounted magnet rod, in hole drilled across the diameter of the spinner, but not all the way through, so the magnet is slung to the outside by cent force, and can NOT get out. The problem with either solution is balanace - the magnet is heavier than the aluminum removed to put it in. |
#18
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
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#19
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
: LJ's 2-cents: Optical seems the best route. If it's a dirty enviro, shield it, wot? Still... why not a vibrational pickup? Then there's _nothing_ to get dirty, no imbalancing of the engine, and no 'attachments'. Just mount the pickup _near_ the motor mounts and be done with it. They've got them in teesy sizes that will handle up to a couple of hundred KHz, can consume NO power (some active ones will pull a couple of mA.) Lloyd |
#20
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Fri, 02 May 2014 10:38:13 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Larry Jaques fired this volley in : LJ's 2-cents: Optical seems the best route. If it's a dirty enviro, shield it, wot? Still... why not a vibrational pickup? Then there's _nothing_ to get dirty, no imbalancing of the engine, and no 'attachments'. Just mount the pickup _near_ the motor mounts and be done with it. They've got them in teesy sizes that will handle up to a couple of hundred KHz, can consume NO power (some active ones will pull a couple of mA.) Vibe tach? Nevahoiduvit. Are they available? -- If government were a product, selling it would be illegal. --P.J. O'Rourke |
#21
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
: Vibe tach? Nevahoiduvit. Are they available? All day long. They're almost a commodity item. Anything with a reliably repeatable cyclic vibration is a candidate for the method. They even sell sub-$20 elapsed-time meters for gasoline engines that are only activated when vibrated by the running motor. Lloyd |
#22
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Fri, 02 May 2014 08:08:27 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Thu, 01 May 2014 17:31:27 -0400, wrote: On Thu, 01 May 2014 11:12:52 -0500, Tim Wescott wrote: Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? Easiest way is slip fit and epoxy. Best way is 2 peices, with relief machined in both halves, with the magnet sandwiched between, held in the hole with epoxy or silicone or polyurethane glue, +1 Or better yet, use radially mounted magnet rod, in hole drilled across the diameter of the spinner, but not all the way through, so the magnet is slung to the outside by cent force, and can NOT get out. The problem with either solution is balanace - the magnet is heavier than the aluminum removed to put it in. Adding mass to a rotating crank can be iffy, adding considerable vibration and shorten crank life. (Ask Ford with its cut-down-V-8 V-6 diesel. A CA fleet truck dealer told me in 2007 that only two of the hundreds they sold had NOT come back for major engine repairs within a year. I ended up with the Tundra.) Balancing with an equal weight of steel rod 180-degrees out would double that mass and any problem associated with it. That is not necessarally true when it comes to model airplanes. I once saw a "speed job" a small controll line model designed to go fast, that used a single bladed prop, with a conterweight with an engine speed in excess of 10,000 rpm. -- Cheers, John B. (invalid to gmail) |
#23
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
John B. fired this volley in
: That is not necessarally true when it comes to model airplanes. I once saw a "speed job" a small controll line model designed to go fast, that used a single bladed prop, with a conterweight with an engine speed in excess of 10,000 rpm. What kind of chugging hunk of a model airplane engine goes 10K? (except at a high idle?) There are lots of them out there that consistently tach 29Krpm. Lloyd |
#24
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70: There are lots of them out there that consistently tach 29Krpm. um... and some that do 40K. Lloyd |
#25
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Fri, 02 May 2014 20:56:45 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: John B. fired this volley in : That is not necessarally true when it comes to model airplanes. I once saw a "speed job" a small controll line model designed to go fast, that used a single bladed prop, with a conterweight with an engine speed in excess of 10,000 rpm. What kind of chugging hunk of a model airplane engine goes 10K? (except at a high idle?) There are lots of them out there that consistently tach 29Krpm. Lloyd I was being conservative as I saw the plane in, probably the mid 1950's, and I really have no recollection of actual RPM as we just tuned them by ear and flew them :-) -- Cheers, John B. (invalid to gmail) |
#26
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
... Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Why not sense it optically? jsw |
#27
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
m... Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. The easy to get magnets (which is what I have) are nickel plated, so they're slippery as hell. They're also not machined to super-tight tolerances, and NdFeB is brittle as hell (it's optimized for magnetic hardness, not physical strength!). The best I can think of is to drill the hole to a slip fit and then epoxy. I have visions of actually achieving a press fit, then watching magnet after magnet crumble into clinging dust trying to press them in. Suggestions? Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com On a bicycle crank (max way less than 200 rpm) I sandpaper one side of the magnet and use epoxy glue to stick it to the aluminum crank arm. It's held for several years now. -- Cheers, John B. |
#28
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On 05/01/2014 11:12 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). Tear apart an old computer hard drive. There is a supermagnet in there (apparently) epoxied to a steel backing plate. The magnet is brittle, you should be able to get a size small enough to fit the spinner but strong enough to trigger your sensor. Perhaps mount two magnets, diametrically opposed on the spinner, and a half divider circuit for the tach? technomaNge -- |
#29
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
Tim Wescott writes: Problem statement: Mount a small (nominally 3.2 x 1.6mm) NdFeB magnet in an aluminum model airplane spinner backplate (for a tachometer). The thing needs to work with a model airplane engine, so it's going to be a high vibration environment. A tach for model engine speed? If your sensor is a reed switch, it almost certainly won't open and close fast enough. (As another poster has observed already.) I did this with the exercise wheel for my pet deer mouse that works like a charm but flat out he's only running 4 mph max. (You do the conversion to RPM of a 6" wheel. :-) Take apart an old (computer) mouse and get the LED and sensor. Should be far more responsive than a reed switch. (But I'm only guessing. Electronics weenies to the bridge, please. Is there such a thing as a high-speed, solid state magnetic switch?) -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada |
#30
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Thu, 01 May 2014 23:55:27 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
snip Take apart an old (computer) mouse and get the LED and sensor. Should be far more responsive than a reed switch. (But I'm only guessing. Electronics weenies to the bridge, please. Is there such a thing as a high-speed, solid state magnetic switch?) Yes there is -- they're called Hall switches, or Hall sensors (they work by the Hall effect. You get one guess as to the last name of the guy who wrote it up first.) I just don't feel that doing this optically will be robust. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#31
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 01 May 2014 23:55:27 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote: snip Take apart an old (computer) mouse and get the LED and sensor. Should be far more responsive than a reed switch. (But I'm only guessing. Electronics weenies to the bridge, please. Is there such a thing as a high-speed, solid state magnetic switch?) Yes there is -- they're called Hall switches, or Hall sensors (they work by the Hall effect. You get one guess as to the last name of the guy who wrote it up first.) I just don't feel that doing this optically will be robust. Should be fine if you add a recess in the spinner to protect the sensor. Does this mount on a shaft with a through hole? Could you drill diagonal from inside that hole and mount the magnet in a pocket with some epoxy? -- Steve W. |
#32
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
Are you aware of slot sensors? come in a HUGE assortment
http://www.digikey.com/product-searc...=slot%20sensor You'll need a gap, or an interuption in the slot once per rev. Karl |
#33
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
Karl Townsend fired this volley in
: You'll need a gap, or an interuption in the slot once per rev. A drilled hole works fine for a chopper. You can also balance your wheel/spinner backplate easily using drilled holes. I personally think the whole idea of direct-sensing of the motor shaft on a model airplane is a fool's errand. Why not just use a piezo-electric vibration pickup anywhere _near_ the engine, and be done with it? LLoyd |
#34
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
... I just don't feel that doing this optically will be robust. Tim Wescott Will it fall back to open-loop if the RPM sensor fails or goes out of range? I'd be much more concerned with the magnet or counterweight flying out and the aircraft self-destructing. You could mount the magnet stationary on one side of the shaft and couple it to the sensor on the other side with a symmetrical steel bar on the shaft. |
#35
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
Tim Wescott writes: On Thu, 01 May 2014 23:55:27 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote: [snip] Take apart an old (computer) mouse and get the LED and sensor. Should be far more responsive than a reed switch. (But I'm only guessing. Electronics weenies to the bridge, please. Is there such a thing as a high-speed, solid state magnetic switch?) Yes there is -- they're called Hall switches, or Hall sensors (they work by the Hall effect. You get one guess as to the last name of the guy who wrote it up first.) Ah, tnx for that. Heard of "Hall effect", didn't know that commonplace articles implemented it. Where would I look in old junk to find one? I just don't feel that doing this optically will be robust. Someone gave me a DecWriter II in 1990, when it was at archaeological-artifact stage of life, which I played with for a while. The opto-mechanical unit for spacing eventually failed and I was never able to get it working again. I suppose the similar little wheels in a mouse would have the same potential for refractory NFG-ness, which is why I thought of but didn't try that for my (real) mouse tach. -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada |
#36
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On Fri, 02 May 2014 14:54:05 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
Tim Wescott writes: On Thu, 01 May 2014 23:55:27 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote: [snip] Take apart an old (computer) mouse and get the LED and sensor. Should be far more responsive than a reed switch. (But I'm only guessing. Electronics weenies to the bridge, please. Is there such a thing as a high-speed, solid state magnetic switch?) Yes there is -- they're called Hall switches, or Hall sensors (they work by the Hall effect. You get one guess as to the last name of the guy who wrote it up first.) Ah, tnx for that. Heard of "Hall effect", didn't know that commonplace articles implemented it. Where would I look in old junk to find one? Crank position sensors (they'll have a hall sensor and a magnet). Laptops and flip-phones often use them to sense that the thing is closed. Be warned that the laptop and flip-phone ones achieve very low power consumption by only turning on about ten times a second -- at all other times they pretty much ignore the world. Also be warned that this is the biggest market share by far -- finding a Hall sensor that'll work on a 12000 RPM engine takes some digging (I've got part numbers, if you want to order some from DigiKey). -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#37
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On 5/2/2014 2:45 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Fri, 02 May 2014 14:54:05 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote: Tim Wescott writes: On Thu, 01 May 2014 23:55:27 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote: [snip] Take apart an old (computer) mouse and get the LED and sensor. Should be far more responsive than a reed switch. (But I'm only guessing. Electronics weenies to the bridge, please. Is there such a thing as a high-speed, solid state magnetic switch?) Yes there is -- they're called Hall switches, or Hall sensors (they work by the Hall effect. You get one guess as to the last name of the guy who wrote it up first.) Ah, tnx for that. Heard of "Hall effect", didn't know that commonplace articles implemented it. Where would I look in old junk to find one? Crank position sensors (they'll have a hall sensor and a magnet). Laptops and flip-phones often use them to sense that the thing is closed. Be warned that the laptop and flip-phone ones achieve very low power consumption by only turning on about ten times a second -- at all other times they pretty much ignore the world. Also be warned that this is the biggest market share by far -- finding a Hall sensor that'll work on a 12000 RPM engine takes some digging (I've got part numbers, if you want to order some from DigiKey). Any 8 cylinder automotive electronic distributor. 8 cylinders firing once every 2 revolutions at 6,000 rpm equals 8 times 6,000 divided by 2. 24,000 trigger events per minute. should work. Just adapt the mechanicals, reduce, whatever, but the electronics in a distributor are VERY robust. |
#38
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On 2014-05-02, Mike Spencer wrote:
Tim Wescott writes: [ ... ] Ah, tnx for that. Heard of "Hall effect", didn't know that commonplace articles implemented it. Where would I look in old junk to find one? Hmm ... near where moving magnets are sensed -- if you can find "old junk" which is new enough. :-) I just don't feel that doing this optically will be robust. Someone gave me a DecWriter II in 1990, when it was at archaeological-artifact stage of life, which I played with for a while. The opto-mechanical unit for spacing eventually failed and I was never able to get it working again. I suppose the similar little wheels in a mouse would have the same potential for refractory NFG-ness, which is why I thought of but didn't try that for my (real) mouse tach. The problem with the DecWriter-II is that the chopper was a thin metal disc stuck to a hub with double-sided tape. When the temperature gets too hot, it can shift off-center and stop being sensed properly. (The head will bang into the stops at one end of travel or the other.) (Ask Me How I Know This. :-) So -- the problem there was not with the robustness of optical sensing, but with the robustness of the mounting of the chopper wheel. A very different matter. If you drill a number of holes through the spinner, and put the sensor inside (assuming that you want this to be sensing during flight, instead of just on a test bench) it should be well enough protected, and the spinner will certainly stay put. It is not mounted by glue, I hope. :-) Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#39
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
On 02 May 2014 14:54:05 -0300, Mike Spencer
wrote: Tim Wescott writes: On Thu, 01 May 2014 23:55:27 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote: [snip] Take apart an old (computer) mouse and get the LED and sensor. Should be far more responsive than a reed switch. (But I'm only guessing. Electronics weenies to the bridge, please. Is there such a thing as a high-speed, solid state magnetic switch?) Yes there is -- they're called Hall switches, or Hall sensors (they work by the Hall effect. You get one guess as to the last name of the guy who wrote it up first.) Ah, tnx for that. Heard of "Hall effect", didn't know that commonplace articles implemented it. Where would I look in old junk to find one? I just don't feel that doing this optically will be robust. Someone gave me a DecWriter II in 1990, when it was at archaeological-artifact stage of life, which I played with for a while. The opto-mechanical unit for spacing eventually failed and I was never able to get it working again. I suppose the similar little wheels in a mouse would have the same potential for refractory NFG-ness, which is why I thought of but didn't try that for my (real) mouse tach. An old Omni distributor generally had 2 of them. (Aries and reliant too) |
#40
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Mounting a rare earth magnet in a thin plate
"Mike Spencer" wrote in message
... Tim Wescott writes: ... A tach for model engine speed? If your sensor is a reed switch, it almost certainly won't open and close fast enough. (As another poster has observed already.) The fastest I could make a reed relay cycle was around 2 KHz, by overdriving it. I've operated laser diode switches above 3 GHz. jsw |
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