I am thinking ahead here. I have 4 screwless vises I plan to key to the
table of the Hurco mill I am working on. The plan is to have a key on the
bottom that will allow my to set the vise on the table, pull it forward and
clamp it down for a modestly decent repeatable square to the table. For
multiple vises I'll cut a "straight bar" I can clamp into all of them at the
same to to get a good average square the length of the setup. (Same
straight bar I'll use for aligning and keying the vises to begin with.)

I know this method isn't "perfect", but for the most part it should be
pretty good.

Here is my other thought. Put a pin in the bottom of each vise, and drill
an array of holes in the table so I can move a vise a fixed amount on the
table. Maybe spacing holes at one inch. Based on my experience with slip
fit alignment pins on molds I probably can't get repeatability better than a
couple thousandths this way and still be able to set and remove the vise
easily, but I am thinking it might still substantially speed up setups for
odd jobs.

What obvious and stupid thing am I over looking?

"Bob La Londe" fired this volley in
:

Put a pin in the bottom of each vise, and drill
an array of holes in the table so I can move a vise a fixed amount on
the table.

Bob, don't drill into your table.

If you want a jig like that, key a tool plate to fit the slots on the
table, then drill the plate.

Lloyd

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:26:37 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Bob La Londe" fired this volley in
:

Put a pin in the bottom of each vise, and drill
an array of holes in the table so I can move a vise a fixed amount on
the table.

Bob, don't drill into your table.

If you want a jig like that, key a tool plate to fit the slots on the
table, then drill the plate.

Lloyd


YES!!! No drilling into the table!!! Ever! Not even by accident!!

Gunner

--
The essential differences between liberals and conservtives
is that liberals could not exist without conservtives to defend
their freedom and support them economicaly.

Conservatives on the other hand, can exist and
live quite well without liberals."

Lloyd, Gunner,

Why?

I can spend over a grand on a piece of metal to bolt to a piece of metal. To
use it I would have to do a lot of machining basically duplicating a lot of
the work already done to the table of the machine. Then it would increase
the overall weight on the table to nearly the recommended capacity of the
machine. A couple hundred pounds for the tooling plate and 160 pound of
vises and I would then only be able to have a couple pounds of work piece on
the machine before exceeding the 500lb weight limit on the table.

I know there is a strong aversion to cutting the table, but is there a
really strong reason?

"Bob La Londe" fired this volley in news:BIc%r.1487
:

I know there is a strong aversion to cutting the table, but is there a
really strong reason?


Yes. The table is cast. Holes where holes do not belong may induce
stress fractures. Holes will collect debris. Holes will induce
corrosion which may induce fractures.

Why, exactly, do you suppose you would spend $1000 on a slab of metal you
can machine from raw stock? You don't have to buy pre-ground "tooling
plate"... not if you're going to drill a bunch of holes in it, and
certainly not if all the accuracy you care to get is two thousandths!

G'head... I don't care if you drill holes in your table. Don't ever
come near my shop with any tools in your hand, though.

Let me see... 500-360=?? Yep... that comes out to "a couple of pounds",
all right.

Bob, my ONE vise weighs 160lb.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Bob La Londe" fired this volley in news:BIc%r.1487
:

I know there is a strong aversion to cutting the table, but is there a
really strong reason?


Yes. The table is cast.

Excellent. Thank you. I know the table is cast. But isn't it cast,
ground, and then machined.

Holes where holes do not belong may induce
stress fractures.

Ok, fair enough. I wasn't think of drilling the equivalent of a matrix
plate though. Just a single row down the table between two T-slots in the
web that resulted from previous machining to make the table. A slot to go
with a second perpendicular key on the vise would be better as it could be
machined to a closer tolerance and still allow for pulling the vise forward
against its reference surface of the existing T-slot. I have seen tables
machined with slots in two directions.

Holes will collect debris.

I have seen matrix plates setup with a recessed screw in each hole that is
not used. If the hole is not under one of the four vises it would be
plugged. Even if it was it could be, if you slightly recess the plug.

Holes will induce corrosion which may induce fractures.

Ok... certainly a possibility as even with a plug they could hold coolant.

Why, exactly, do you suppose you would spend $1000 on a slab of metal you
can machine from raw stock?

LLoyd I wish I had your resources, but I have looked for things as simple as
a slab of cast iron with just that sort of thought process in mind and even
when I find a piece at a fair price by the time I get it to Yuma it costs a
lot more than you might think. Gas and diesel aren't cheap anymore.
Neither is time.

I did a quick check of on-line new just to check really quick and I found
oversized tool steel (not ground) for little less. A piece that is a little
under spec for what I would want to do that job (couldn't find what I wanted
in a quick search) is almost $800. There may be something infinitely better
and infinitely cheaper that you with your vast knowledge and experience know
about, but I don't. I can only work with the tools that I have.

You don't have to buy pre-ground "tooling
plate"... not if you're going to drill a bunch of holes in it, and
certainly not if all the accuracy you care to get is two thousandths!

Well, I would like a lot better accuracy than that, but I don't know how I
would be able to get it with a setup that allows the vises to be removed and
reinstalled easily except possibley my double key method discussed above. I
am sure I could get them straight to less than that over the length of the
table with just the single keying, but the pin idea was in regards to
accuracy of position left to right. The distance between them can also be
set with a parallel plate, but the absolute position would not be the same
every time. Since I am not retired, and I am not a full time machinist, and
I don't have your experience I am looking for ways that *I* can reduce setup
time.

G'head... I don't care if you drill holes in your table. Don't ever
come near my shop with any tools in your hand, though.

No need to be snippy. I have already kissed your butt in the past and let
you know I respect your experience and expertise. I still do, but I am not
going to do any more butt kissing. I asked because I wanted to know. Your
answer has some rationality to it. I'm not 100% satisfied, but I am going
to mull it over some more.

Let me see... 500-360=?? Yep... that comes out to "a couple of pounds",
all right.

Uh-huh. And I am sure its really efficient to start every job with several
hundred pounds extra weight on the table.

Bob, my ONE vise weighs 160lb.

I guess I can't use that one then. 4*160=640. Wouldn't do me much good.

Its one reason I decided to go with several screwless vises on the table for
now. The working envelope to weight ratio is exponentially different. The
difference in the price is too.

I would sure hate to feel your wrath when you find out my intention to
machine the vises on the top side to create step jaws to hold wider pieces
of plate then they were designed for. LOL.

LLoyd

Bob

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Bob La Londe" fired this volley in news:BIc%r.1487
:

I know there is a strong aversion to cutting the table, but is there a
really strong reason?


Yes. The table is cast.

Excellent. Thank you. I know the table is cast. But isn't it cast,
ground, and then machined.

Holes where holes do not belong may induce
stress fractures.

Ok, fair enough. I wasn't think of drilling the equivalent of a matrix
plate though. Just a single row down the table between two T-slots in the
web that resulted from previous machining to make the table. A slot to go
with a second perpendicular key on the vise would be better as it could be
machined to a closer tolerance and still allow for pulling the vise
forward against its reference surface of the existing T-slot. I have seen
tables machined with slots in two directions.

Holes will collect debris.

I have seen matrix plates setup with a recessed screw in each hole that is
not used. If the hole is not under one of the four vises it would be
plugged. Even if it was it could be, if you slightly recess the plug.

Holes will induce corrosion which may induce fractures.

Ok... certainly a possibility as even with a plug they could hold
coolant.

Why, exactly, do you suppose you would spend $1000 on a slab of metal you
can machine from raw stock?

LLoyd I wish I had your resources, but I have looked for things as simple
as a slab of cast iron with just that sort of thought process in mind and
even when I find a piece at a fair price by the time I get it to Yuma it
costs a lot more than you might think. Gas and diesel aren't cheap
anymore. Neither is time.

I did a quick check of on-line new just to check really quick and I found
oversized tool steel (not ground) for little less. A piece that is a
little under spec for what I would want to do that job (couldn't find what
I wanted in a quick search) is almost $800. There may be something
infinitely better and infinitely cheaper that you with your vast knowledge
and experience know about, but I don't. I can only work with the tools
that I have.

You don't have to buy pre-ground "tooling
plate"... not if you're going to drill a bunch of holes in it, and
certainly not if all the accuracy you care to get is two thousandths!

Well, I would like a lot better accuracy than that, but I don't know how I
would be able to get it with a setup that allows the vises to be removed
and reinstalled easily except possibley my double key method discussed
above. I am sure I could get them straight to less than that over the
length of the table with just the single keying, but the pin idea was in
regards to accuracy of position left to right. The distance between them
can also be set with a parallel plate, but the absolute position would not
be the same every time. Since I am not retired, and I am not a full time
machinist, and I don't have your experience I am looking for ways that *I*
can reduce setup time.

G'head... I don't care if you drill holes in your table. Don't ever
come near my shop with any tools in your hand, though.

No need to be snippy. I have already kissed your butt in the past and let
you know I respect your experience and expertise. I still do, but I am
not going to do any more butt kissing. I asked because I wanted to know.
Your answer has some rationality to it. I'm not 100% satisfied, but I am
going to mull it over some more.

Let me see... 500-360=?? Yep... that comes out to "a couple of pounds",
all right.

Uh-huh. And I am sure its really efficient to start every job with
several hundred pounds extra weight on the table.

Bob, my ONE vise weighs 160lb.

I guess I can't use that one then. 4*160=640. Wouldn't do me much good.

Its one reason I decided to go with several screwless vises on the table
for now. The working envelope to weight ratio is exponentially different.
The difference in the price is too.

I would sure hate to feel your wrath when you find out my intention to
machine the vises on the top side to create step jaws to hold wider pieces
of plate then they were designed for. LOL.

LLoyd

Bob

P.S. I do want to thank you for taking the time to reply. As always it was
educational.

"Bob La Londe" fired this volley in
:

I would sure hate to feel your wrath when you find out my intention to
machine the vises on the top side to create step jaws to hold wider
pieces of plate then they were designed for. LOL.

That's what machinable, replaceable jaws are for.

I wasn't being "snippy", Bob. You sounded bound and determined to drill
the table. I didn't see any particular likelihood of stopping you.

On my machines, wherever there's a hole, there's a beefed-up part of the
casting.

Do you know that the table is solid beneath where you want to drill?


I still don't see (without measuring your table slots, etc.) why you
couldn't do this with some sort of welded-up frame keyed to the slots,
rather than fudging up the table.

LLoyd

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:52:22 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:


I did a quick check of on-line new just to check really quick and I found
oversized tool steel (not ground) for little less. A piece that is a little
under spec for what I would want to do that job (couldn't find what I wanted
in a quick search) is almost $800. There may be something infinitely better
and infinitely cheaper that you with your vast knowledge and experience know
about, but I don't. I can only work with the tools that I have.

As a point of reference, I just ordered two pieces of 1" A36 plate cut
to size and Blanchard ground that came to $1.35/pound.

From this outfit:
http://www.americangrinding.com/divisions/grinding/

I've been buying from them for many years. I'm in New England, but
even considering freight I haven't found anyone closer that beats
their prices.

As far as drilling the table goes, I'd be reluctant to do it myself,
mostly for irrational esthetic reasons, but it's unlikely to cause any
harm as long as you put some thought into the locations.

--
Ned Simmons

Ned Simmons fired this volley in
:

as long as you put some thought into the locations.


And have some fore-knowlege of the nature of the casting beneath the holes.

LLoyd

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:19:12 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

I am thinking ahead here. I have 4 screwless vises I plan to key to the
table of the Hurco mill I am working on. The plan is to have a key on the
bottom that will allow my to set the vise on the table, pull it forward and
clamp it down for a modestly decent repeatable square to the table. For
multiple vises I'll cut a "straight bar" I can clamp into all of them at the
same to to get a good average square the length of the setup. (Same
straight bar I'll use for aligning and keying the vises to begin with.)

I know this method isn't "perfect", but for the most part it should be
pretty good.

Here is my other thought. Put a pin in the bottom of each vise, and drill
an array of holes in the table so I can move a vise a fixed amount on the
table. Maybe spacing holes at one inch. Based on my experience with slip
fit alignment pins on molds I probably can't get repeatability better than a
couple thousandths this way and still be able to set and remove the vise
easily, but I am thinking it might still substantially speed up setups for
odd jobs.

What obvious and stupid thing am I over looking?

I guess I'd have to ask "Why?". After all you have tee-slots already
there, why not just use them?

Or perhaps look at it this way - people have been keying stuff down on
milling machine tables using the tee slots for a hundred years or
more. Nobody ever thought of using holes? I wonder why?

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:43:04 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

Lloyd, Gunner,

Why?

I can spend over a grand on a piece of metal to bolt to a piece of metal. To
use it I would have to do a lot of machining basically duplicating a lot of
the work already done to the table of the machine. Then it would increase
the overall weight on the table to nearly the recommended capacity of the
machine. A couple hundred pounds for the tooling plate and 160 pound of
vises and I would then only be able to have a couple pounds of work piece on
the machine before exceeding the 500lb weight limit on the table.

I know there is a strong aversion to cutting the table, but is there a
really strong reason?

And if you do bolt this expensive slab of metal to the table how do
you align it to the table? With keys into the tee slots?

John B. fired this volley in
:

And if you do bolt this expensive slab of metal to the table how do
you align it to the table? With keys into the tee slots?

Yeah, John. But I think you missed his purpose. If I read him right, he
wants more "resolution" to his keying system than the slots will give him.

Me... I'd work with the spacing given, and move the work origin as
necessary.

It _is_ a CNC, after all.

LLoyd

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:43:04 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

Lloyd, Gunner,

Why?

I can spend over a grand on a piece of metal to bolt to a piece of metal. To
use it I would have to do a lot of machining basically duplicating a lot of
the work already done to the table of the machine. Then it would increase
the overall weight on the table to nearly the recommended capacity of the
machine. A couple hundred pounds for the tooling plate and 160 pound of
vises and I would then only be able to have a couple pounds of work piece on
the machine before exceeding the 500lb weight limit on the table.

I know there is a strong aversion to cutting the table, but is there a
really strong reason?


Because you if you are never able to work the entire table and ways.
..... you will ultimately wear loose spots in the gibs and ways if you
are unable to move the work around, balancing the wear. Never put
your vise on a mill and keep it in the same spot year after year.
Particularly on a CNC machine. You wear out the screws, the ballscrews
the nuts and cages and so on and so forth in one small section, when
you work only one spot.

Ive tested literally hundreds of mills of all different sorts..and I
was able to match wear up with the clean spots on the tables with the
areas of most wear....IE..where the vises were locked down and never
moved.

On EVERY mill Ive ever owned..Ive put the table on , on the sides, the
left quarter, right quarter...alll over the place, to minimize wear in
one spot on the ways.

If you are a big company and are cranking out a gazillion parts and
the mill is simply a tool...go ahead and replace that mill every 3
yrs..or replace the ways..which cost damned near as much. Its part of
the cost of doing business. But when you are a small shop or hobby
guy...those *******s cost like the devil....

Gunner

--
The essential differences between liberals and conservtives
is that liberals could not exist without conservtives to defend
their freedom and support them economicaly.

Conservatives on the other hand, can exist and
live quite well without liberals."

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:52:22 -0700, Bob La Londe wrote:


Ok, fair enough. I wasn't think of drilling the equivalent of a matrix
plate though. Just a single row down the table between two T-slots in
the web that resulted from previous machining to make the table.

Make a strip that fits a T-slot and drill your holes in it.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
I am thinking ahead here. I have 4 screwless vises I plan to key to
the table of the Hurco mill I am working on. The plan is to have a
key on the bottom that will allow my to set the vise on the table,
pull it forward and clamp it down for a modestly decent repeatable
square to the table. For multiple vises I'll cut a "straight bar" I
can clamp into all of them at the same to to get a good average
square the length of the setup. (Same straight bar I'll use for
aligning and keying the vises to begin with.)
...

Indicate the slots while you move the table, and see if they are
parallel to the travel. You can detect slight variations in the width
of the slot with an adjustable parallel.

I've made the key a light press fit in the slot, but had to thin it
slightly because the vise's weight made it too hard to slide in and
out without cocking and jamming.

jsw

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 21:28:16 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

And if you do bolt this expensive slab of metal to the table how do
you align it to the table? With keys into the tee slots?

Yeah, John. But I think you missed his purpose. If I read him right, he
wants more "resolution" to his keying system than the slots will give him.

Me... I'd work with the spacing given, and move the work origin as
necessary.

It _is_ a CNC, after all.

LLoyd

Well, he could rig a grinding head and grind, or just machine, one
tee-slot so it has a nice even width and then grind some square stock
to match and use that for key stock. I'd guess that you could get
somewhere about 0.001" accuracy without trying too hard.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...

Well, I would like a lot better accuracy than that, but I don't know
how I would be able to get it with a setup that allows the vises to
be removed and reinstalled easily except possibley my double key
method discussed above. I am sure I could get them straight to less
than that over the length of the table with just the single keying,
but the pin idea was in regards to accuracy of position left to
right. The distance between them can also be set with a parallel
plate, but the absolute position would not be the same every time.
Since I am not retired, and I am not a full time machinist, and I
don't have your experience I am looking for ways that *I* can reduce
setup time.


Set the vises in place by measurement and then notch a long piece of
bar stock to fit snugly between all the jaws. You could make a spacing
rod to align the first vise off the end of the table, then use the
notched bar to position the others relative to it.

Or mill the notches with CNC, whatever gives you the best accuracy.

What do you use as a work stop to locate the stock X-wise in the
vises? It's the only thing that has to be accurately positioned.

jsw

Bob La Londe wrote:
Lloyd, Gunner,

Why?

I can spend over a grand on a piece of metal to bolt to a piece of metal. To
use it I would have to do a lot of machining basically duplicating a lot of
the work already done to the table of the machine. Then it would increase
the overall weight on the table to nearly the recommended capacity of the
machine. A couple hundred pounds for the tooling plate and 160 pound of
vises and I would then only be able to have a couple pounds of work piece on
the machine before exceeding the 500lb weight limit on the table.

I know there is a strong aversion to cutting the table, but is there a
really strong reason?




Well you could possibly use a slightly different method. Pick a T slot
and true it up on both edges, then cut a dovetail on each side. Now make
a saddle that would clamp to the dovetail and locate the vice. Bridge
two if possible. For the lateral location you could mill a small notch
on the dovetail to align with a matching pin on the base.

--
Steve W.

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:40:05 AM UTC-7, xpzzzz wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:52:22 -0700, Bob La Londe wrote:





Ok, fair enough. I wasn't think of drilling the equivalent of a matrix

plate though. Just a single row down the table between two T-slots in

the web that resulted from previous machining to make the table.



Make a strip that fits a T-slot and drill your holes in it.

Makes perfect sense. My goal wasn't to permanently mount all the vises and leave them forever. If I wanted to do that I would take my time. indicate them once and be done. My goal is to be able to quickly drop them on and off in different positions, but "know" pretty close where they are when I do.

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:19:08 AM UTC-7, Steve W. wrote:
Bob La Londe wrote:

Lloyd, Gunner,



Why?



I can spend over a grand on a piece of metal to bolt to a piece of metal. To

use it I would have to do a lot of machining basically duplicating a lot of

the work already done to the table of the machine. Then it would increase

the overall weight on the table to nearly the recommended capacity of the

machine. A couple hundred pounds for the tooling plate and 160 pound of

vises and I would then only be able to have a couple pounds of work piece on

the machine before exceeding the 500lb weight limit on the table.



I know there is a strong aversion to cutting the table, but is there a

really strong reason?









Well you could possibly use a slightly different method. Pick a T slot

and true it up on both edges, then cut a dovetail on each side. Now make

a saddle that would clamp to the dovetail and locate the vice. Bridge

two if possible. For the lateral location you could mill a small notch

on the dovetail to align with a matching pin on the base.



--

Steve W.

That's inline with my goals, but truing up one T-slot for the primary key (Y) and clamping something in another T-slot for a secondary key (X) is sounding more like the way I am going to go.

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:59:58 AM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message

...



Well, I would like a lot better accuracy than that, but I don't know

how I would be able to get it with a setup that allows the vises to

be removed and reinstalled easily except possibley my double key

method discussed above. I am sure I could get them straight to less

than that over the length of the table with just the single keying,

but the pin idea was in regards to accuracy of position left to

right. The distance between them can also be set with a parallel

plate, but the absolute position would not be the same every time.

Since I am not retired, and I am not a full time machinist, and I

don't have your experience I am looking for ways that *I* can reduce

setup time.





Set the vises in place by measurement and then notch a long piece of

bar stock to fit snugly between all the jaws. You could make a spacing

rod to align the first vise off the end of the table, then use the

notched bar to position the others relative to it.



Or mill the notches with CNC, whatever gives you the best accuracy.



What do you use as a work stop to locate the stock X-wise in the

vises? It's the only thing that has to be accurately positioned.



jsw

Currently on my little stepper based table top mills I indicate roughly off the end of the work piece and then cut it to size. Then I know the machine edge and the physical edge are the same. My table top machines really are geared towards shooting from the hip like that though. I'm trying to get a little more reasonable out of the big mill so I can more time making parts, and less time setting up the jobs.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
news:9af14e7a-60b8-4bd4-8639-
-Currently on my little stepper based table top mills
-I indicate roughly off the end of the work piece and
-then cut it to size. Then I know the machine edge
-and the physical edge are the same. My table top
-machines really are geared towards shooting from
-the hip like that though. I'm trying to get a little
-more reasonable out of the big mill so I can more
-time making parts, and less time setting up the jobs.

Here is an example of how to set up a stop so you can remove and
replace the work piece.
http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/vi...ory_stop_2.jpg
In this case the collet block has to come out to unscrew the retaining
ring to swap parts. I would have set the rod end against the lower
edge of the tube end rather than the collet block.

The home-made work stop at the left rear corner my 4" Wilton vise is a
flat rectangular plate that pivots in or out of the way on a screw,
something like this but minus the adjusting screw, and spaced out a
little ways to make brushing off the chips easier:
http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/so...ork_stop_1.jpg

Set the zeros by clamping a 1-2-3 block against the stop and edge-find
it.

I think you could align the vise by running the table to a known
position with a ground rod in the collet and sliding the vise until
the attached work stop contacts the rod. I'd use an edge finder or
feeler gages rather than banging a heavy vise into the rod.

Just checked; I can position my 42 Lb vise to within about a quarter
of a thousandth by tapping it with a soft plastic hammer.

jsw