I bought a "Liebert Datawave server room power conditioner" for $50
from the military.

Since no one wanted to buy it above scrap value, we decided to scrap
it. We sawed off the windings from numerous transformers. The
"conditioner" has about 250 lbs of heavy copper windings (rectangular
in cross section), plus about 36 Dielektrol oil filled 660 VAC
capacitors.

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other
alternatives. Ideally, I would like to turn it into #1 copper scrap,
not #2 like the burned stuff.

Thanks


i

"Ignoramus20751" wrote in message
...
I bought a "Liebert Datawave server room power conditioner" for $50
from the military.

Since no one wanted to buy it above scrap value, we decided to scrap
it. We sawed off the windings from numerous transformers. The
"conditioner" has about 250 lbs of heavy copper windings (rectangular
in cross section), plus about 36 Dielektrol oil filled 660 VAC
capacitors.

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other
alternatives. Ideally, I would like to turn it into #1 copper scrap,
not #2 like the burned stuff.


If it's truly laquer, then laquer thinner should cut it..

Suggest test to make sure and if so, shear it away from the core and into
manageable sized pieces using a knife press, skil saw or something like that
and then soak the pieces in a metal bucket full of the thinner.

But thinking it could be shellac, in which case you would want to use
de-natured alcohol instead...

On Jun 1, 5:44*pm, Ignoramus20751 ignoramus20...@NOSPAM.
20751.invalid wrote:
I bought a "Liebert Datawave server room power conditioner" for $50
from the military.

Since no one wanted to buy it above scrap value, we decided to scrap
it. We sawed off the windings from numerous transformers. The
"conditioner" has about 250 lbs of heavy copper windings (rectangular
in cross section), plus about 36 Dielektrol oil filled 660 VAC
capacitors.

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other
alternatives. Ideally, I would like to turn it into #1 copper scrap,
not #2 like the burned stuff.

Thanks

i

Most likely not shellac. From Wikipedia: "Insulation

Modern magnet wire typically uses one to four layers (in the case of
quad-film type wire) of polymer film insulation, often of two
different compositions, to provide a tough, continuous insulating
layer. Magnet wire insulating films use (in order of increasing
temperature range) polyvinyl formal (Formvar), polyurethane,
polyamide, polyester, polyester-polyimide, polyamide-polyimide (or
amide-imide), and polyimide. Polyimide insulated magnet wire is
capable of operation at up to 250°C. The insulation of thicker square
or rectangular magnet wire is often augmented by wrapping it with a
high-temperature polyimide or fiberglass tape, and completed windings
are often vacuum impregnated with an insulating varnish to improve
insulation strength and long-term reliability of the winding.

Other types of insulation such as fiberglass yarn with varnish, aramid
paper, kraft paper, mica, and polyester film are also widely used
across the world for various applications like transformers and
reactors. In the audio sector, a wire of silver construction, and
various other insulators, such as cotton (sometimes permeated with
some kind of coagulating agent/thickener, such as beeswax) and
polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon) can be found. Older insulation
materials included cotton, paper, or silk, but these are only useful
for low-temperature applications (up to 105°C).

For ease of manufacturing, most new magnet wire has insulation that
acts as a flux when burnt during soldering. [1] This means that the
electrical connections at the ends can be made without stripping off
the insulation first. Older magnet wire is normally not like this, and
requires sandpapering or scraping to remove the insulation before
soldering."
Karl

Ignoramus20751 fired this volley in
:

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other
alternatives. Ideally, I would like to turn it into #1 copper scrap,
not #2 like the burned stuff.

Ultimately, it would have been worth a lot more as a ferro-resonant
transformer (to someone) than even as #1 scrap. (sigh)...


It's not lacquer, it's Hysol Varnish. The thing was probably vacuum
varnished, as were most transformers, before they started sending all
that business to China.

Ethylene (or methylene) Chloride will dissolve it, but not _completely_.
It will leave a gel-like gunk that will have to be washed away with a
heavy stream of water, or removed by tumbling/washing -- much like a
tumble de-burring operation, but with a water rinse.

Methylene chloride is the solvent in common solvent-based paint and
varnish strippers. Only... it would take a LOT for 250lb. Unless you
dedicated a whole barrel of the stuff to this purpose, that would be an
expensive one-off experiment.

Another thing that will soften varnish so it may be washed off is hot lye
solution. That's cheap, but it's dangerous, and has to be near boiling
to work well.


Question, Ig... what's #1 brass scrap selling for these days? Is there
any advantage if it's all one alloy, and very clean?

LLoyd

" fired this volley in
:

For ease of manufacturing, most new magnet wire has insulation that
acts as a flux when burnt during soldering. [1] This means that the
electrical connections at the ends can be made without stripping off
the insulation first. Older magnet wire is normally not like this, and
requires sandpapering or scraping to remove the insulation before
soldering."


Karl, that really gave me a snicker! Apparently, that was written prior
to 1965.

Belden Wire came out with "Beldsol Insulation" around then. It's
advantage was that you could just dip the ends of the wire in a solder
pot, and they'd tin. Contrary to the report above, we were making small
chokes and transformers with Beldsol wire in the 1960s.

LLoyd

On 2012-06-02, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus20751 fired this volley in
:

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other
alternatives. Ideally, I would like to turn it into #1 copper scrap,
not #2 like the burned stuff.

Ultimately, it would have been worth a lot more as a ferro-resonant
transformer (to someone) than even as #1 scrap. (sigh)...


It's not lacquer, it's Hysol Varnish. The thing was probably vacuum
varnished, as were most transformers, before they started sending all
that business to China.

Ethylene (or methylene) Chloride will dissolve it, but not _completely_.
It will leave a gel-like gunk that will have to be washed away with a
heavy stream of water, or removed by tumbling/washing -- much like a
tumble de-burring operation, but with a water rinse.

Methylene chloride is the solvent in common solvent-based paint and
varnish strippers. Only... it would take a LOT for 250lb. Unless you
dedicated a whole barrel of the stuff to this purpose, that would be an
expensive one-off experiment.

Another thing that will soften varnish so it may be washed off is hot lye
solution. That's cheap, but it's dangerous, and has to be near boiling
to work well.

I think that what you are getting at is right, nothing else works as
well as burning. (note that varnish is not as bad to burn as would be
wire insulation).

Question, Ig... what's #1 brass scrap selling for these days? Is there
any advantage if it's all one alloy, and very clean?

Lloyd, there is not one price, you need to call your local scrap
yards. Quantity and consistency are always an advantage. Also, open a
corporate account. They treat you better.

I am scrapping a fair amount of stuff now, taking dump trucks of
ferrous and scrapping copper by the half ton.

Here's a picture of my above mentioned dump truck.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A..._E/s596/12+-+1

I work hard to learn scrapping business (meaning, buying stuff for the
purpose of scrapping). So, I am still a beginner in the scrapping
business.

The last fun project was buying a 80 "ton", room sized, 6,500 lbs
"Trane water chiller". It yielded 500 lbs of clean copper, 666 lbs of
copper aluminum radiators, 5,000 lbs of iron and a bit of wire, plus
250 lbs of fan motors.

i

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:40:53 -0500, Ignoramus15646
wrote:

On 2012-06-02, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus20751 fired this volley in
:

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other
alternatives. Ideally, I would like to turn it into #1 copper scrap,
not #2 like the burned stuff.

Ultimately, it would have been worth a lot more as a ferro-resonant
transformer (to someone) than even as #1 scrap. (sigh)...


It's not lacquer, it's Hysol Varnish. The thing was probably vacuum
varnished, as were most transformers, before they started sending all
that business to China.

Ethylene (or methylene) Chloride will dissolve it, but not _completely_.
It will leave a gel-like gunk that will have to be washed away with a
heavy stream of water, or removed by tumbling/washing -- much like a
tumble de-burring operation, but with a water rinse.

Methylene chloride is the solvent in common solvent-based paint and
varnish strippers. Only... it would take a LOT for 250lb. Unless you
dedicated a whole barrel of the stuff to this purpose, that would be an
expensive one-off experiment.

Another thing that will soften varnish so it may be washed off is hot lye
solution. That's cheap, but it's dangerous, and has to be near boiling
to work well.

I think that what you are getting at is right, nothing else works as
well as burning. (note that varnish is not as bad to burn as would be
wire insulation).

Question, Ig... what's #1 brass scrap selling for these days? Is there
any advantage if it's all one alloy, and very clean?

Lloyd, there is not one price, you need to call your local scrap
yards. Quantity and consistency are always an advantage. Also, open a
corporate account. They treat you better.

Excellent advice. I just saved a couple bucks this morning by having
a Ewing Irrigation cash card. I picked up a box of 500 landscape
staples, for when I take out my front lawn. It's going to be nice
without the leaves/branches dropping every year, roots ruining mower
blades, moss on the roof, etc.


I am scrapping a fair amount of stuff now, taking dump trucks of
ferrous and scrapping copper by the half ton.

Here's a picture of my above mentioned dump truck.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A..._E/s596/12+-+1

I guess it's running fine? How are you doing with the semi tractor?


I work hard to learn scrapping business (meaning, buying stuff for the
purpose of scrapping). So, I am still a beginner in the scrapping
business.

You're definitely in the right area for that, Ig.


The last fun project was buying a 80 "ton", room sized, 6,500 lbs
"Trane water chiller". It yielded 500 lbs of clean copper, 666 lbs of
copper aluminum radiators, 5,000 lbs of iron and a bit of wire, plus
250 lbs of fan motors.

Whassa "copper aluminum radiator"? Price?
Is iron still going for $140T?
How much is clean copper vs #2?

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

On Friday, June 1, 2012 8:44:06 PM UTC-7, Ignoramus20751 wrote:
I bought a "Liebert Datawave server room power conditioner" for $50
from the military.

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

I don't think it's lacquer because windings are almost always coated with polyurethane varnish.

fired this volley in
:

I don't think it's lacquer because windings are almost always coated
with polyurethane varnish.


Not likely with windings of that vintage. It would be a natural organic
(i.e. vegetable) varnish (as opposed to a synthetic urethane) like Hysol
brand, which was specifically formulated for vacuum potting of
transformers.

I did a stint as the senior lab tech for Florida Transitron, WAY back in
the day. A few transformers were potted in more exotic compositions
(like epoxies), but most were simply put in the big Hysol vacuum pot,
then drained and rolled into the oven for a 24-hour bake-out.

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

Not likely with windings of that vintage. It would be a natural organic
(i.e. vegetable) varnish (as opposed to a synthetic urethane) like Hysol
brand, which was specifically formulated for vacuum potting of
transformers.

I would be remiss to add that the Hysol brand has "updated" since the 1960-
1990 period. They now formulate all sorts of resins, epoxies, and
conformal coatings, and even a few natural-resin varnishes like they did
back then.

LLoyd

On 2012-06-02, Ignoramus20751 wrote:
I bought a "Liebert Datawave server room power conditioner" for $50
from the military.

Since no one wanted to buy it above scrap value, we decided to scrap
it. We sawed off the windings from numerous transformers. The
"conditioner" has about 250 lbs of heavy copper windings (rectangular
in cross section), plus about 36 Dielektrol oil filled 660 VAC
capacitors.

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other
alternatives. Ideally, I would like to turn it into #1 copper scrap,
not #2 like the burned stuff.

Well ... there used to be a chemical available in small bottles
with a brush for dissolving the insulating enamel on the wire. If you
dissolve that, the paper will go away too. But it was nasty stuff, and
I would want a fume hood to use it in if I were working on something as
big as your 250 lbs of copper. IIRC, it was called "Formex" IIRC and
sold by General Cement (who sold a lot of electronics chemicals back
when). I usually scraped the enamel off the end of magnet wire, but
when working with the tiny stuff (e.g. #50 and smaller), one scrape and
you cut though the wire, so this was the only way to do it reasonably.

I think that it was related to the stuff which an employer back
in 1960 used to dissolve epoxy potting compound (and it also dissolved
the epoxy from G10 circuit boards, and the Bakelite shells of resistors
(along with the color code bands. :-) That that certainly *was* used in
a fume hood.

Not sure that you can get any of that stuff these days. :-)

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2012-06-02, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Ignoramus20751" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

[ ... ]

If it's truly laquer, then laquer thinner should cut it..

Suggest test to make sure and if so, shear it away from the core and into
manageable sized pieces using a knife press, skil saw or something like that
and then soak the pieces in a metal bucket full of the thinner.

But thinking it could be shellac, in which case you would want to use
de-natured alcohol instead...

It was typically called an "enamel" not a lacquer or shellac.
Specially formulated to be tough enough to avoid cracking and splitting
off when the wire was bent in the process of winding the coils. I think
that "Formvar" was a name of what was used, and what was likely used in
this.

Looking for solvents for it by name may help.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Jun 2, 1:38*am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
" fired this volley :

For ease of manufacturing, most new magnet wire has insulation that
acts as a flux when burnt during soldering. [1] This means that the
electrical connections at the ends can be made without stripping off
the insulation first. Older magnet wire is normally not like this, and
requires sandpapering or scraping to remove the insulation before
soldering."

Karl, that really gave me a snicker! *Apparently, that was written prior
to 1965.

Belden Wire came out with "Beldsol Insulation" around then. *It's
advantage was that you could just dip the ends of the wire in a solder
pot, and they'd tin. *Contrary to the report above, we were making small
chokes and transformers with Beldsol wire in the 1960s.

LLoyd

That's why I usually use wikipedia as a starter to point me in the
right direction.
Karl

On 6/3/2012 7:43, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2012-06-02, wrote:
My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other
alternatives. Ideally, I would like to turn it into #1 copper scrap,
not #2 like the burned stuff.

Well ... there used to be a chemical available in small bottles
with a brush for dissolving the insulating enamel on the wire. If you
dissolve that, the paper will go away too. But it was nasty stuff, and
I would want a fume hood to use it in if I were working on something as
big as your 250 lbs of copper. IIRC, it was called "Formex" IIRC and
sold by General Cement (who sold a lot of electronics chemicals back
when). I usually scraped the enamel off the end of magnet wire, but
when working with the tiny stuff (e.g. #50 and smaller), one scrape and
you cut though the wire, so this was the only way to do it reasonably.

I think that it was related to the stuff which an employer back
in 1960 used to dissolve epoxy potting compound (and it also dissolved
the epoxy from G10 circuit boards, and the Bakelite shells of resistors
(along with the color code bands. :-) That that certainly *was* used in
a fume hood.

Tetrahydrofuran? THF.. Used nowadays in PVC solvent-welding-"glues".

One reference states that 67% methylene chloride, 17% phenol, 4% ammonia
works for most magnet wires.. The rest is thickeners etc. for making
it stick to magnet wire. Used to be "strip-X" as a commercial product.
I have not tried this myself.

Is it really more economical to use some hazardous chemical (producing
chem waste) to "purify" the copper scrap, compared to just selling the
copper as is (with the paper etc.)..

Not sure that you can get any of that stuff these days. :-)

Your local chemical supplier is happy to sell you anything..
If you are a company, of course.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:


Ultimately, it would have been worth a lot more as a ferro-resonant
transformer (to someone) than even as #1 scrap. (sigh)...

The problem here is that it wouldn't. This is not a standalone, spec'd
and rated ferroresonant transformer with it's own housing, it's a custom
unit with no specifications and ratings, unenclosed (on it's own) that
was an OEM part in an obsolete product. Scarp value really is it.

On 2012-06-03, Pete C. wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:


Ultimately, it would have been worth a lot more as a ferro-resonant
transformer (to someone) than even as #1 scrap. (sigh)...

The problem here is that it wouldn't. This is not a standalone, spec'd
and rated ferroresonant transformer with it's own housing, it's a custom
unit with no specifications and ratings, unenclosed (on it's own) that
was an OEM part in an obsolete product. Scarp value really is it.

Yep. ebay is full of takeout transformers of that sort, very hard to
sell.

i

On 2012-06-03, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:40:53 -0500, Ignoramus15646
wrote:
I am scrapping a fair amount of stuff now, taking dump trucks of
ferrous and scrapping copper by the half ton.

Here's a picture of my above mentioned dump truck.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A..._E/s596/12+-+1

I guess it's running fine? How are you doing with the semi tractor?

The dump is running fine. The semi, is also running, but we are not
yet using it, because the insurance is so expensive and also, the
fifth wheel on it needs some work.

The last fun project was buying a 80 "ton", room sized, 6,500 lbs
"Trane water chiller". It yielded 500 lbs of clean copper, 666 lbs of
copper aluminum radiators, 5,000 lbs of iron and a bit of wire, plus
250 lbs of fan motors.

Whassa "copper aluminum radiator"? Price?
Is iron still going for $140T?
How much is clean copper vs #2?


Copper aluminum radiator is a sheet of radiator with copper lines and
aluminum fins. I got $1.49 per lb for it. They have to be clear of
iron.

Sheet iron I sold for $295 per ton.

Clean copper went for $2.89 per lb, and copper #2 (with solder) went
for $2.74 per lb.

i

On 2012-06-03, Kristian Ukkonen wrote:
On 6/3/2012 7:43, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2012-06-02, wrote:
My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other

[ ... ]

Well ... there used to be a chemical available in small bottles
with a brush for dissolving the insulating enamel on the wire. If you
dissolve that, the paper will go away too. But it was nasty stuff, and
I would want a fume hood to use it in if I were working on something as
big as your 250 lbs of copper. IIRC, it was called "Formex" IIRC and
sold by General Cement (who sold a lot of electronics chemicals back
when).

[ ... ]

One reference states that 67% methylene chloride, 17% phenol, 4% ammonia
works for most magnet wires.. The rest is thickeners etc. for making
it stick to magnet wire. Used to be "strip-X" as a commercial product.
I have not tried this myself.

Aha! That is the name I was trying to remember. Thanks!

I have used it, and it was the preferred way to remove the
enamel from really fine magnet wire. Any mechanical means was more
likely to shorten the wire. :-)

Is it really more economical to use some hazardous chemical (producing
chem waste) to "purify" the copper scrap, compared to just selling the
copper as is (with the paper etc.)..

An interesting point.

Not sure that you can get any of that stuff these days. :-)

Your local chemical supplier is happy to sell you anything..
If you are a company, of course.

Which I am not, and I don't think that "Iggy" is, either, for
the purpose of buying from chemical suppliers. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 10:06:36 -0500, Ignoramus19204
wrote:

On 2012-06-03, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:40:53 -0500, Ignoramus15646
wrote:
I am scrapping a fair amount of stuff now, taking dump trucks of
ferrous and scrapping copper by the half ton.

Here's a picture of my above mentioned dump truck.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A..._E/s596/12+-+1

I guess it's running fine? How are you doing with the semi tractor?

The dump is running fine. The semi, is also running, but we are not
yet using it, because the insurance is so expensive and also, the
fifth wheel on it needs some work.

The last fun project was buying a 80 "ton", room sized, 6,500 lbs
"Trane water chiller". It yielded 500 lbs of clean copper, 666 lbs of
copper aluminum radiators, 5,000 lbs of iron and a bit of wire, plus
250 lbs of fan motors.

Whassa "copper aluminum radiator"? Price?
Is iron still going for $140T?
How much is clean copper vs #2?


Copper aluminum radiator is a sheet of radiator with copper lines and
aluminum fins. I got $1.49 per lb for it. They have to be clear of
iron.

Sheet iron I sold for $295 per ton.

Clean copper went for $2.89 per lb, and copper #2 (with solder) went
for $2.74 per lb.

i
The question is - can you remove the enamel or whatever forless than
$0.25 a lb, including labour???
If not, don't even bother.

On 3 Jun 2012 04:43:20 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-06-02, Ignoramus20751 wrote:
I bought a "Liebert Datawave server room power conditioner" for $50
from the military.

Since no one wanted to buy it above scrap value, we decided to scrap
it. We sawed off the windings from numerous transformers. The
"conditioner" has about 250 lbs of heavy copper windings (rectangular
in cross section), plus about 36 Dielektrol oil filled 660 VAC
capacitors.

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other
alternatives. Ideally, I would like to turn it into #1 copper scrap,
not #2 like the burned stuff.

Well ... there used to be a chemical available in small bottles
with a brush for dissolving the insulating enamel on the wire. If you
dissolve that, the paper will go away too. But it was nasty stuff, and
I would want a fume hood to use it in if I were working on something as
big as your 250 lbs of copper. IIRC, it was called "Formex" IIRC and
sold by General Cement (who sold a lot of electronics chemicals back
when). I usually scraped the enamel off the end of magnet wire, but
when working with the tiny stuff (e.g. #50 and smaller), one scrape and
you cut though the wire, so this was the only way to do it reasonably.

I think that it was related to the stuff which an employer back
in 1960 used to dissolve epoxy potting compound (and it also dissolved
the epoxy from G10 circuit boards, and the Bakelite shells of resistors
(along with the color code bands. :-) That that certainly *was* used in
a fume hood.

Not sure that you can get any of that stuff these days. :-)

Good Luck,
DoN.


If it costs you $62.50 to clean it up you break even- - - - -

On 2012-06-04, wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 10:06:36 -0500, Ignoramus19204
wrote:

On 2012-06-03, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:40:53 -0500, Ignoramus15646
wrote:
I am scrapping a fair amount of stuff now, taking dump trucks of
ferrous and scrapping copper by the half ton.

Here's a picture of my above mentioned dump truck.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A..._E/s596/12+-+1

I guess it's running fine? How are you doing with the semi tractor?

The dump is running fine. The semi, is also running, but we are not
yet using it, because the insurance is so expensive and also, the
fifth wheel on it needs some work.

The last fun project was buying a 80 "ton", room sized, 6,500 lbs
"Trane water chiller". It yielded 500 lbs of clean copper, 666 lbs of
copper aluminum radiators, 5,000 lbs of iron and a bit of wire, plus
250 lbs of fan motors.

Whassa "copper aluminum radiator"? Price?
Is iron still going for $140T?
How much is clean copper vs #2?


Copper aluminum radiator is a sheet of radiator with copper lines and
aluminum fins. I got $1.49 per lb for it. They have to be clear of
iron.

Sheet iron I sold for $295 per ton.

Clean copper went for $2.89 per lb, and copper #2 (with solder) went
for $2.74 per lb.

i
The question is - can you remove the enamel or whatever forless than
$0.25 a lb, including labour???
If not, don't even bother.

Exactly the right equation.

i

On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 21:03:32 -0500, Ignoramus19204
wrote:

On 2012-06-04, wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 10:06:36 -0500, Ignoramus19204
wrote:

On 2012-06-03, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:40:53 -0500, Ignoramus15646
wrote:
I am scrapping a fair amount of stuff now, taking dump trucks of
ferrous and scrapping copper by the half ton.

Here's a picture of my above mentioned dump truck.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A..._E/s596/12+-+1

I guess it's running fine? How are you doing with the semi tractor?

The dump is running fine. The semi, is also running, but we are not
yet using it, because the insurance is so expensive and also, the
fifth wheel on it needs some work.

The last fun project was buying a 80 "ton", room sized, 6,500 lbs
"Trane water chiller". It yielded 500 lbs of clean copper, 666 lbs of
copper aluminum radiators, 5,000 lbs of iron and a bit of wire, plus
250 lbs of fan motors.

Whassa "copper aluminum radiator"? Price?
Is iron still going for $140T?
How much is clean copper vs #2?


Copper aluminum radiator is a sheet of radiator with copper lines and
aluminum fins. I got $1.49 per lb for it. They have to be clear of
iron.

Sheet iron I sold for $295 per ton.

Clean copper went for $2.89 per lb, and copper #2 (with solder) went
for $2.74 per lb.

i
The question is - can you remove the enamel or whatever forless than
$0.25 a lb, including labour???
If not, don't even bother.

Exactly the right equation.

Except the figure is fifteen cents a pound, not twenty five.
And for that, #2 gets my nod.

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

On Jun 1, 9:44*pm, Ignoramus20751 ignoramus20...@NOSPAM.
20751.invalid wrote:
I bought a "Liebert Datawave server room power conditioner" for $50
from the military.

Since no one wanted to buy it above scrap value, we decided to scrap
it. We sawed off the windings from numerous transformers. The
"conditioner" has about 250 lbs of heavy copper windings (rectangular
in cross section), plus about 36 Dielektrol oil filled 660 VAC
capacitors.

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other
alternatives. Ideally, I would like to turn it into #1 copper scrap,
not #2 like the burned stuff.

Thanks

i

Chances are its Formvar or the equivalent, that's a really tough baked-
on lacquer/varnish and no solvent likely to shift it in the short
term. You might try a segment and some aircraft paint stripper just
to see. Probably the difference in price between #1 and #2 isn't
going to offset your time and solvent costs.

Too bad nobody needed it, that was a pretty spendy power conditioner.
It was probably on some minicomputer installation and those are deader
than a dodo these days. Had one that was about 4' on a side running a
Tandem back in the stone age at the shipyard. A multi-kilobuck
installation, even without the gummint electricians installing it on
overtime.

If it's old enough, those oil-filled capacitors may be a problem for
you, PCBs were used in a lot of old ones, made a dandy dielectric.
Too bad about the stuff being hazardous waste. Have to watch that
with all old oil-filled electrical scrap.

Stan

On 2012-06-04, Stanley Schaefer wrote:
On Jun 1, 9:44?pm, Ignoramus20751 ignoramus20...@NOSPAM.
20751.invalid wrote:
I bought a "Liebert Datawave server room power conditioner" for $50
from the military.

Since no one wanted to buy it above scrap value, we decided to scrap
it. We sawed off the windings from numerous transformers. The
"conditioner" has about 250 lbs of heavy copper windings (rectangular
in cross section), plus about 36 Dielektrol oil filled 660 VAC
capacitors.

My question is about the 250 lbs of copper windings with rectangular
cross section. They are baked together with some waxy paper and
lacquer.

What is the easiest way to get rid of that stuff, other than
burning. I am familiar with burning, but I want to know other
alternatives. Ideally, I would like to turn it into #1 copper scrap,
not #2 like the burned stuff.

Thanks

i

Chances are its Formvar or the equivalent, that's a really tough baked-
on lacquer/varnish and no solvent likely to shift it in the short
term. You might try a segment and some aircraft paint stripper just
to see. Probably the difference in price between #1 and #2 isn't
going to offset your time and solvent costs.

Yep, this is my conclusion also.

Too bad nobody needed it, that was a pretty spendy power conditioner.
It was probably on some minicomputer installation and those are deader
than a dodo these days. Had one that was about 4' on a side running a
Tandem back in the stone age at the shipyard. A multi-kilobuck
installation, even without the gummint electricians installing it on
overtime.

You are spot on, this stuff is way obsolete. Just not needed any
more.

If it's old enough, those oil-filled capacitors may be a problem for
you, PCBs were used in a lot of old ones, made a dandy dielectric.
Too bad about the stuff being hazardous waste. Have to watch that
with all old oil-filled electrical scrap.

No, they are GE Dielektrols, "NO PCB" is written on all of them.

i

On 2012-06-04, Ignoramus15636 wrote:
On 2012-06-04, Stanley Schaefer wrote:

[ ... ]

Too bad nobody needed it, that was a pretty spendy power conditioner.
It was probably on some minicomputer installation and those are deader
than a dodo these days. Had one that was about 4' on a side running a
Tandem back in the stone age at the shipyard. A multi-kilobuck
installation, even without the gummint electricians installing it on
overtime.

You are spot on, this stuff is way obsolete. Just not needed any
more.

Depending on size and weight, I might have been able to use it.
I run a lot of computers here, and having one big UPS instead of three
of various sizes would be a benefit.

Too late now, anyway.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2012-06-05, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2012-06-04, Ignoramus15636 wrote:
On 2012-06-04, Stanley Schaefer wrote:

[ ... ]

Too bad nobody needed it, that was a pretty spendy power conditioner.
It was probably on some minicomputer installation and those are deader
than a dodo these days. Had one that was about 4' on a side running a
Tandem back in the stone age at the shipyard. A multi-kilobuck
installation, even without the gummint electricians installing it on
overtime.

You are spot on, this stuff is way obsolete. Just not needed any
more.

Depending on size and weight, I might have been able to use it.
I run a lot of computers here, and having one big UPS instead of three
of various sizes would be a benefit.

Too late now, anyway.

It is not a UPS, it is a power conditioner, lots of transformers and
capacitors. oil filled run caps. No batteries.



Enjoy,
DoN.

On 5 Jun 2012 00:54:35 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-06-04, Ignoramus15636 wrote:
On 2012-06-04, Stanley Schaefer wrote:

[ ... ]

Too bad nobody needed it, that was a pretty spendy power conditioner.
It was probably on some minicomputer installation and those are deader
than a dodo these days. Had one that was about 4' on a side running a
Tandem back in the stone age at the shipyard. A multi-kilobuck
installation, even without the gummint electricians installing it on
overtime.

You are spot on, this stuff is way obsolete. Just not needed any
more.

Depending on size and weight, I might have been able to use it.
I run a lot of computers here, and having one big UPS instead of three
of various sizes would be a benefit.

Too late now, anyway.

Enjoy,
DoN.
Those old Ferro UPS units are good - but terribly inefficient.

On 2012-06-05, wrote:
On 5 Jun 2012 00:54:35 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-06-04, Ignoramus15636 wrote:
On 2012-06-04, Stanley Schaefer wrote:

[ ... ]

Too bad nobody needed it, that was a pretty spendy power conditioner.
It was probably on some minicomputer installation and those are deader
than a dodo these days. Had one that was about 4' on a side running a
Tandem back in the stone age at the shipyard. A multi-kilobuck
installation, even without the gummint electricians installing it on
overtime.

You are spot on, this stuff is way obsolete. Just not needed any
more.

Depending on size and weight, I might have been able to use it.
I run a lot of computers here, and having one big UPS instead of three
of various sizes would be a benefit.

Too late now, anyway.

Enjoy,
DoN.
Those old Ferro UPS units are good - but terribly inefficient.

I took one apart years ago, used its cabinet to house my second phase
converter. Built like tanks.

i

writes:


Those old Ferro UPS units are good - but terribly inefficient.

Indeed. An unloaded ferroresonant transformer draws ~35% of FLA.
They make good heaters....

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On 2012-06-05, David Lesher wrote:
writes:
Those old Ferro UPS units are good - but terribly inefficient.

Indeed. An unloaded ferroresonant transformer draws ~35% of FLA.
They make good heaters....


So, are there better transformers now? What are they called?

i

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 11:15:20 -0500, Ignoramus23642
wrote:

On 2012-06-05, David Lesher wrote:
writes:
Those old Ferro UPS units are good - but terribly inefficient.

Indeed. An unloaded ferroresonant transformer draws ~35% of FLA.
They make good heaters....


So, are there better transformers now? What are they called?

i
Non Resonant transformers. A ferro-resonant transformer is a specialty
item made to regulate voltage. A transformer is made to "transform"
voltage and is significantly more efficient - in part because it
(hopefully) never saturates.

A ferro resonant transformer operates in saturation for part of the
cycle when regulating.

Ignoramus23642 writes:

Indeed. An unloaded ferroresonant transformer draws ~35% of FLA.
They make good heaters....


So, are there better transformers now? What are they called?

Ferroresonant transformers are magnetic flywheels. They take in
line voltage, spin up a [physically imaginary] wheel, and the
output "shaft" drives the load. They CAN change the voltage
[240 in, 120 out...] but that is almost irrelevent.

Their purpose is to smooth out the power feeding the load. If
there is a spike on the line, or a drop out, the flywheel keeps
the output steady. They can typically bridge a loss of 3-5 full
cycles.

They are also short-circuit proof. Short the output & they
deliver the rated current, period.

But now, everything likely runs from a switcher supply; and it's
cheaper to have that flywheel be in a capacitor.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On 2012-06-05, David Lesher wrote:
Ignoramus23642 writes:

Indeed. An unloaded ferroresonant transformer draws ~35% of FLA.
They make good heaters....


So, are there better transformers now? What are they called?

Ferroresonant transformers are magnetic flywheels. They take in
line voltage, spin up a [physically imaginary] wheel, and the
output "shaft" drives the load. They CAN change the voltage
[240 in, 120 out...] but that is almost irrelevent.

Their purpose is to smooth out the power feeding the load. If
there is a spike on the line, or a drop out, the flywheel keeps
the output steady. They can typically bridge a loss of 3-5 full
cycles.

They are also short-circuit proof. Short the output & they
deliver the rated current, period.

But now, everything likely runs from a switcher supply; and it's
cheaper to have that flywheel be in a capacitor.



I learned something completely new today, thanks!

On 2012-06-05, Ignoramus23642 wrote:
On 2012-06-05, David Lesher wrote:
writes:
Those old Ferro UPS units are good - but terribly inefficient.

Indeed. An unloaded ferroresonant transformer draws ~35% of FLA.
They make good heaters....


So, are there better transformers now? What are they called?

There were better ones (for many purposes -- e.g. more efficient
ones) then, too. They are just plain transformers.

The benefit of the ferroresonant ones is that they maintain
close to the same output voltage through a fairly wide range of input
voltages. The first ones I encountered were branded "Sola" and were
just the ferroresonant transformer, without also being a UPS.

The Best "Ferrups" used them to make it easier to maintain the
voltage to the load -- and also the cycling of the transformer probably
maintained power for a cycle or two while the inverter started --
driving extra windings on the same transformer.

The ferroresonant transformers were least efficient with very
little load. Get them up to say around 75% of full load and they are
pretty good. (But yes, my three different sized Best UPS' do add
significant heat to the room. Nice in winter, nasty in summer. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---