On Mon, 14 May 2012 20:07:52 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 14, 6:31*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think you're off on a tangent. It's a sign of courtesy, which Tom is
suggesting is a sign of obsequiousness.


--
Ed Huntress

I do not know how you can know what he meant when the statement is
only

"#1 - Don't bow to royalty." Although I am pretty sure he does not
mean bow as in playing the Cello.

Well maybe, as you suggested in your previous post, he was talking
about the bow of a ship or an archery bow. Why don't you ask him?

--
Ed Huntress




Dan

On May 14, 11:33*pm, Räy Fischer wrote:

He shouldn't bow to any head of state, and he *doesn't* bow to the heads
of state of republics.

--
Räy Fîscher * * * * | *Mendacrisy (n.) government by lying
*| * *The new DNC ideal

And what definition of " bow " are you using?

Dan

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

He shouldn't bow to any head of state, and he *doesn't* bow to the
heads
of state of republics.

Too bad they didn't tell that to Eisenhower.
Ed Huntress

"They":
http://www.state.gov/s/cpr/

Eisenhower was our most experienced expert at dealing properly and
effectively with the British government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme...itionary_Force

jsw

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

There are some old legends about a Marine officer in Tripoli, and
possibly others, refusing to bow to heads of state when they were
ordered to do so. What Tom and others should take from that is that
it is not appropriate to accept such an order or other coercion. But
in a friendly context, it is perfectly appropriate to bow as an
expression of courtesy and respect.

Ed Huntress

An associate offended visiting Saudi dignitaries at dinner by telling
them Americans had no special respect for royalty.

jsw

On Tue, 15 May 2012 10:04:07 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

There are some old legends about a Marine officer in Tripoli, and
possibly others, refusing to bow to heads of state when they were
ordered to do so. What Tom and others should take from that is that
it is not appropriate to accept such an order or other coercion. But
in a friendly context, it is perfectly appropriate to bow as an
expression of courtesy and respect.

Ed Huntress

An associate offended visiting Saudi dignitaries at dinner by telling
them Americans had no special respect for royalty.

jsw


Yeah, those are stupid, unnecessary examples of diplomatic buffoonery.
Unfortunately, being physically isolated and culturally insular, with
a politicized gang of semi-pro diplomats, we have that kind of thing
embedded deep in our national character.

Not that we're alone in that. I'm sure that France has changed since I
was a student in Europe, but when I was there I thought they were
worse at it than we were -- in terms of regular people, anyway. Their
diplomatic corps, on the other hand, is very professional and
cosmopolitan. Ours is always a political pick-up team.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
...
Not that we're alone in that. I'm sure that France has changed since
I
was a student in Europe, but when I was there I thought they were
worse at it than we were -- in terms of regular people, anyway.
Their
diplomatic corps, on the other hand, is very professional and
cosmopolitan. Ours is always a political pick-up team.

--
Ed Huntress

I was the token Army NCO who accompanied the Batallion officers on
social functions with the Germans, and the only one who spoke Deutsch.
Sometimes I had to do a little damage control......

They weren't nearly as bad as their wives.

jsw

I'd guess the Saudis said offensive things like
asking the American women to wear burkhas?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

An associate offended visiting Saudi dignitaries at
dinner by telling them Americans had no special
respect for royalty.

jsw

Ich bein ein Berlinner?

I can easily imagine Americans being clueless. I'm remembering an American
interpreter who used the wrong term, and told a bunch of Saudis that his
American diplomat "lusted after" the Saudi camel drivers.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

I was the token Army NCO who accompanied the Batallion officers on
social functions with the Germans, and the only one who spoke Deutsch.
Sometimes I had to do a little damage control......

They weren't nearly as bad as their wives.

jsw

On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:23:04 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 14 May 2012 20:07:52 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 14, 6:31*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think you're off on a tangent. It's a sign of courtesy, which Tom is
suggesting is a sign of obsequiousness.


--
Ed Huntress

I do not know how you can know what he meant when the statement is
only

"#1 - Don't bow to royalty." Although I am pretty sure he does not
mean bow as in playing the Cello.

Well maybe, as you suggested in your previous post, he was talking
about the bow of a ship or an archery bow. Why don't you ask him?

In the context of this thread Dan's point is severely stupid.

In a different context it's damned funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ucCJ_Vn58w

On Tue, 15 May 2012 08:10:09 -0700, whoyakidding
wrote:

On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:23:04 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 14 May 2012 20:07:52 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 14, 6:31*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think you're off on a tangent. It's a sign of courtesy, which Tom is
suggesting is a sign of obsequiousness.


--
Ed Huntress

I do not know how you can know what he meant when the statement is
only

"#1 - Don't bow to royalty." Although I am pretty sure he does not
mean bow as in playing the Cello.

Well maybe, as you suggested in your previous post, he was talking
about the bow of a ship or an archery bow. Why don't you ask him?

In the context of this thread Dan's point is severely stupid.

Ya' think? d8-)


In a different context it's damned funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ucCJ_Vn58w

Haha! That IS funny. And the guy is 102 years old?? May we all be so
lucky.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ignoramus29935" wrote in message
news
I am wondering about something. I see very many organizations and
people defending American Values.

I could not, however, find a sensible list of what these values are.

Is there some list that makes sense that lists those values.

To me, I came up with the following list of "values" that sets the US
apart

1) Honesty in commercial dealings
2) Civility
3) Fairness and equal treatment
4) Respect for differences in opinions.

Is there anything else that should make into the list that, more or
less, everyone should agree on.

Thanks

Tom Freidman just had a great editorial dealing modern twists on american
values
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/op...by-anyone.html

If you are not a subscriber and have used up your 10 free articles for the
month from the Times, you might not be able to see this.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I'd guess the Saudis said offensive things like
asking the American women to wear burkhas?

Christopher A. Young

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

An associate offended visiting Saudi dignitaries at
dinner by telling them Americans had no special
respect for royalty.
jsw

No, they were very refined, polite and diplomatic, even after.

jsw

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
. ..
Ich bein ein Berlinner?
Christopher A. Young

I am a Danish.

jsw

I am a jelly donut.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
. ..
Ich bein ein Berlinner?
Christopher A. Young

I am a Danish.

jsw

"Stormin Mormon" wrote
I am a jelly donut.
Christopher A. Young

I suspect they were at least as used to foreigners' bad German grammar
as we are to visitors' and immigrants' mistakes in English. Deutsch is
a difficult language. We retain quite a few of their words from the
Saxon invasion of England, but our grammar is closer to the Normans'
Latin-based French.

jsw

On 5/15/2012 7:04 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...

There are some old legends about a Marine officer in Tripoli, and
possibly others, refusing to bow to heads of state when they were
ordered to do so. What Tom and others should take from that is that
it is not appropriate to accept such an order or other coercion. But
in a friendly context, it is perfectly appropriate to bow as an
expression of courtesy and respect.

Ed Huntress

An associate offended visiting Saudi dignitaries at dinner by telling
them Americans had no special respect for royalty.

I'd say your associate was wrong, because when it comes to certain royal
families, specifically the British and that of Monaco, many Americans
have an inordinate fascination with them. I don't think the other
European monarchies hold much interest for most Americans, though,
although the Vatican is technically a monarchy (obviously not
hereditary) and too many people show all too much respect for it.

I bow to my kids' taekwondo teacher, and I do not feel particularly
un-American for doing this.

i

On Sat, 12 May 2012 17:46:14 -0500, Ignoramus29935 wrote:
I am wondering about something. I see very many organizations and
people defending American Values.

I could not, however, find a sensible list of what these values are.

Is there some list that makes sense that lists those values.

To me, I came up with the following list of "values" that sets the
US apart

1) Honesty in commercial dealings
2) Civility
3) Fairness and equal treatment
4) Respect for differences in opinions.

Is there anything else that should make into the list that, more or
less, everyone should agree on.

Charles Murray, in his book "Coming Apart: The State of White America
1960-2010", list four "founding virtues" of America. The wording
below is mine, but I hope I have properly summarized Murray's
concepts:

1) Industriousness, the feeling that having a vocation was critcal
not only to success but to happiness as well.

2) Honesty, the sense that integrity was an essential component of
self-respect as well as the respect of others.

3) Marriage, that is, a formal relationship recognized by society,
one with responsibilities defined by that society, such as proper
behavior towards one's spouse and the transmission of society's
principles to one's children.

4) "Religiosity", the belief in something greater than a single
individual and an acceptance of a shared morla code of conduct.

These four have this in common: they are principles which promote
trust between human beings, which help create what is now referred to
as "social capital".

Murray's feeling is that the decline of these qualities does much to
explain the fragmenting of society and the attitude of "let someone
else" (often the government) "do it".

Here's a Charlie Rose interview for the curious:

Charles Murray on his book "Coming Apart: The State of White America
From 1960-2012"
Friday, February 10, 2012
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12149


Frank McKenney
--
Factors other than random selection subdue the influence of [reason]
on public affairs. For the chief of state under modern conditions,
a limiting factor is too many subjects and problems in too many
areas of government to allow solid understanding of any of them, and
too little time to think between fifteen-minute appointments and
thirty-page briefs. This leaves the field open to protective
stupidity. Meanwhile bureaucracy, safely repeating today what it
did yesterday, rolls on as ineluctably as some vast computer, which,
once penetrated by error, duplicates it forever.
-- Barbara Tuchman / The March of Folly
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney aatt mindspring ddoott com