OT Chevy Volt
 

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 14:32:41 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Feb 27, 2:18*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:

Those ideas are over my head. I read a paper or an article on using
cars as storage for the grid, but there are so many variables that I
haven't attempted to evaluate it.

--
Ed Huntress

Take a look at http://www.priups.com for an interesting application. I
know this guy. He's kind of a kook, and not the nicest guy top work
for (I know a few of his ex-employees), but you have to admit, it's a
cool idea, and he's been doing it for years.

Very interesting. I had heard something about this, but I never looked
into it. It sounds like a really good idea for someone like me, who
has no desire and little need for a generator.

But I don't have a lot of desire for a Prius, either. g Maybe a Leaf
or Leaf-like object as our second car, if my wife continues to work
one mile away and I continue to work at home.

--
Ed Huntress

OT Chevy Volt
 

Excellent discussion on the design details, thanks.

I can see this design violates the first rule of excellent design:
KISS

Of course, battery technology is the problem. Trying to make this idea
work with an insufficient battery complicates the hell out of it.

Karl

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 27, 5:53*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:36:38 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Yabbut....if you read all of that stuff (only recommended if you're
obsessive, like me), you'll see that the article was sort of fudging.
It appears to me from the entirety of those press releases and
articles that the gas engine is clutched to one part of the planetary
gearset at some range of torque loads (one Chevy engineer says it's
torque, not road speed, that determines when it hooks up) and adds
approximately 10% of the total power delivered by the wheels.

Basically, it's a series hybrid setup with a complex coupling between
the primary motor, the secondary motor/generator, and the gas engine.
And the coupling looks like it's handled through clutching and
unclutching the planet-gear yoke and the ring gear. In several places
it says that the gas engine alone will not drive the wheels. That
sounds to me like the planetary gear set will freewheel if the main
electric motor isn't driving it with some force. In fact, I think
that's the explanation those writers were reaching for. As the
once-upon-a-time gear editor for American Machinist, I feel planetary
gearsets in my bones. g

--
Ed Huntress-

Just taking a SWAG here, I suspect that when both the gas engine and
the electric motor drive the planetary gears, the electric motor might
make up the speed difference between the gas engine and the road
wheels, gaining some of the benefit of a CVT from a single ratio
transmission.

???

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:30:54 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:


Excellent discussion on the design details, thanks.

I can see this design violates the first rule of excellent design:
KISS

Of course, battery technology is the problem. Trying to make this idea
work with an insufficient battery complicates the hell out of it.

Karl

Yeah, I think you've put your finger on the bottom line.

--
Ed Huntress

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 27, 6:30*pm, Karl Townsend
wrote:
Excellent discussion on the design details, thanks.

I can see this design violates the first rule of excellent design:
KISS

Of course, battery technology is the problem. Trying to make this idea
work with an insufficient battery complicates the hell out of it.

Karl

And that explains why there is so much battery research going on, much
of it government sponsored. It also explains, at least in part, why
China was (and is) so hell-bent on controlling Tibet, home of the
world's largest lithium reserves.

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:01:36 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Feb 27, 5:53*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:36:38 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Yabbut....if you read all of that stuff (only recommended if you're
obsessive, like me), you'll see that the article was sort of fudging.
It appears to me from the entirety of those press releases and
articles that the gas engine is clutched to one part of the planetary
gearset at some range of torque loads (one Chevy engineer says it's
torque, not road speed, that determines when it hooks up) and adds
approximately 10% of the total power delivered by the wheels.

Basically, it's a series hybrid setup with a complex coupling between
the primary motor, the secondary motor/generator, and the gas engine.
And the coupling looks like it's handled through clutching and
unclutching the planet-gear yoke and the ring gear. In several places
it says that the gas engine alone will not drive the wheels. That
sounds to me like the planetary gear set will freewheel if the main
electric motor isn't driving it with some force. In fact, I think
that's the explanation those writers were reaching for. As the
once-upon-a-time gear editor for American Machinist, I feel planetary
gearsets in my bones. g

--
Ed Huntress-

Just taking a SWAG here, I suspect that when both the gas engine and
the electric motor drive the planetary gears, the electric motor might
make up the speed difference between the gas engine and the road
wheels, gaining some of the benefit of a CVT from a single ratio
transmission.

???

That's an interesting thought. Without a better description from
Chevy's engineers, I can't identify exactly what is happening.

One of the engineers pointed out that the large majority of power
always comes from the electric motor, and that the gas engine cuts out
at something like 6,000 rpm.

I'd like to know how the gas engine is clutched to the planetary
gears. I think that would explain most of it.

--
Ed Huntress

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 14:56:34 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:



Yeah, that would be the ideal fix. That smaller engine would likely
be much quieter and lighter, too. But is the air conditioning system
the reason for the larger, auto-style engine?

You certainly don't need 86 HP for an air conditioner. Both the
Prius and Honda Civic hybrid have electric air conditioning that
runs off the hybrid battery. 3 - 5 engine Hp is all it takes if running
off the engine. I assume the Volt also has to have electric A/C.

No, but if you're running at 70mph on a rainy night with headlights,
the a/c dehumidifying the windshield, -and- the radio blasting out of
ten speakers at 130dB, you need more generating power for the
accessories.

I wish my Tundra had come with a hybrid option and a 3L inline 4. At
least half of my trips are in town and less than 12mi total. The
littler (4.7L) V-8 has way too much power most of the time, since I'm
not pulling a 10k# load.

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 27, 8:40*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:

No, but if you're running at 70mph on a rainy night with headlights,
the a/c dehumidifying the windshield, -and- the radio blasting out of
ten speakers at 130dB, you need more generating power for the
accessories.

Another "problem" with electric vehicles is that they need this extra
power in cold weather as well, to run a heater.

OT Chevy Volt
 

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:30:54 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:

Of course, battery technology is the problem. Trying to make this
idea
work with an insufficient battery complicates the hell out of it.
Karl

Yeah, I think you've put your finger on the bottom line.
Ed Huntress

http://news.yahoo.com/energy-dense-b...230100576.html
Several groups are pursuing these ideas with silicon and germanium.
http://m.technologyreview.com/energy/38395/

$125 per KWH would be a significant boost, comparable to lead-acid
cost with much less weight, if nanotube anodes can be produced cheaply
enough.
http://www.cheaptubesinc.com/carbon-...bes-prices.htm

jsw

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:52:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:30:54 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:

Of course, battery technology is the problem. Trying to make this
idea
work with an insufficient battery complicates the hell out of it.
Karl

Yeah, I think you've put your finger on the bottom line.
Ed Huntress

http://news.yahoo.com/energy-dense-b...230100576.html
Several groups are pursuing these ideas with silicon and germanium.
http://m.technologyreview.com/energy/38395/

$125 per KWH would be a significant boost, comparable to lead-acid
cost with much less weight, if nanotube anodes can be produced cheaply
enough.
http://www.cheaptubesinc.com/carbon-...bes-prices.htm

jsw

And the rest of us will stand back and cheer them on, making sure they
have plenty of drinks and snacks while they do inscrutible things with
their magical stuff. d8-)

I expect to see something really practical come out of all this within
my lifetime. They'd better hurry....

--
Ed Huntress

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 28, 10:56*am, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:52:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"





wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:30:54 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:

Of course, battery technology is the problem. Trying to make this
idea
work with an insufficient battery complicates the hell out of it.
Karl

Yeah, I think you've put your finger on the bottom line.
Ed Huntress

http://news.yahoo.com/energy-dense-b...-long-distance...
Several groups are pursuing these ideas with silicon and germanium.
http://m.technologyreview.com/energy/38395/

$125 per KWH would be a significant boost, comparable to lead-acid
cost with much less weight, if nanotube anodes can be produced cheaply
enough.
http://www.cheaptubesinc.com/carbon-...bes-prices.htm

jsw

And the rest of us will stand back and cheer them on, making sure they
have plenty of drinks and snacks while they do inscrutible things with
their magical stuff. d8-)

I expect to see something really practical come out of all this within
my lifetime. They'd better hurry....

--
Ed Huntress

My cousin is working on this at Stanford. I'll tell him to step it
up ;-)

OT Chevy Volt
 

On 2/28/2012 2:11 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:


I wonder how big the solar panel array would be that would be required
to charge up a Volt?

City block sized?

Gunner

10x20 feet on a house roof will generate ~2kW/Hr so less than 8 hours on
a small rooftop array.

OT Chevy Volt
 

On 2/28/2012 8:27 AM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Feb 27, 8:40 pm, Larry
wrote:

No, but if you're running at 70mph on a rainy night with headlights,
the a/c dehumidifying the windshield, -and- the radio blasting out of
ten speakers at 130dB, you need more generating power for the
accessories.

Another "problem" with electric vehicles is that they need this extra
power in cold weather as well, to run a heater.

Or you could just dress warmly for your 20 minute commute. At least you
are out of the wind!

OT Chevy Volt
 

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

now the panel costs are about $5.50 per watt, with an installation of
about $9 per watt....the basic panels, exclusive of framework and any
tracking mechanism, is $14.50 per watt..or $29,000 installed.

Lets add another say...$5000 for a tracking mechanism and support
structure..and thats $34,000. Did I drop a decimal or anything here?

Now the basic Volt, to purchase one, costs $40,000. Add a solar
charging system capable of charging it in 8 hrs, per your figures..and
that car just cost you $74,000, for a short distance runabout.

Your numbers may be a little off (e.g. I think the panel costs are closer to $4.50 per watt), but
not by much. Your overall point is clearly correct: that total cost of ownership is likely to be
somewhere in the vicinity of ten grand per year. It's obviously cheaper to recharge the
batteries from the grid than from a solar array, but even so, TCO is probably still on the north
side of $5K per year.

By contrast, three years ago I paid $3300 for a used 1999 Saturn SL2 with 90K miles on it.
Still going strong. Hasn't needed any significant repairs yet, not much beyond normal
maintenance. My major operating expense so far has been gasoline, about $1500 a year
(45K miles / 30mpg * $3 per gallon / 3 years). Counting a few minor repairs, tires, oil
changes, and so on, my TCO to this point is about $1800 per year, and that's likely to go
*down* as the initial purchase cost is amortized over more years, despite the increasing
cost of gasoline. (Gas would have to average nearly ninety dollars a gallon, over the next
seven years, before my ten-year TCO would reach $5K per year.)