OT Chevy Volt
 

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:19:57 -0500, Stuart Wheaton
wrote:

On 2/26/2012 11:53 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:29:47 -0500, Stuart
wrote:

On 2/26/2012 7:18 AM, John B. wrote:


I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?


No, there is not.


http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp



The Snopes rebuttle is fatally flawed. It takes the same amount of time
to drive across the country????

Since when the battery is run down it runs on the gas engine, yes, it
can go cross country just like any IC vehicle.

But the Volt is not designed for x-country use. It is optimised for the
large number of Americans who commute a dozen miles or so daily, who can
charge it during off peak hours every night, but still offers a back-up
plan so you never suffer the inability to go when you need to regardless
of the charging time.

OH yeah, you can fit it with a Gun rack too.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_1...ack-in-a-volt/


68% of Americans commute less than 15 miles one-way to work:

http://www.bts.gov/publications/omni...figure_02.html

In other words, the vast majority of those who drive to work can cover
their trips on electricity only, with an all-electric (Nissan Leaf) or
a plug-in hybrid (Chevy Volt).

--
Ed Huntress




Hardly. Its sadly more of a mish mash than the original article

Gunner

OT Chevy Volt
 

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 17:48:08 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

1) If it were feasable, it would already be in the works
2) We reduce dependance on foreign oil with domestic drilling and building
more refineries. ANWR, Gulf of Mexico, etc.
3) So, where do you think we get the fuel to make the electricity to power
the car? Probably from electric plants that burn foreign oil. d'uh.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org

Chris, you are getting downright loony. Roughly 1% of the electricity
in the US is generated from oil, whether foreign or domestic:

http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/i..._united_states

Man, if you're going to be lazy and ignorant, you should at least
learn to keep your mouth shut until you wise up and stop looking like
a fool. You've become ridiculous.

Not that I have any irresistible urge to defend our resident mormon, but
dayum, I don't think too many people knew that oil was just 1% of
electricity generation -- less than renewables, according to that site. Dat
was quite the eye-opener!
Renewables are presumably wind, pv's, and hydro-electric. I'da thought
hydro-electric would have been more.
T Boone Pickens was trying to corner the market on nat gas, iirc.
--
EA


--
Ed Huntress

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:59:27 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 17:48:08 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

1) If it were feasable, it would already be in the works
2) We reduce dependance on foreign oil with domestic drilling and building
more refineries. ANWR, Gulf of Mexico, etc.
3) So, where do you think we get the fuel to make the electricity to power
the car? Probably from electric plants that burn foreign oil. d'uh.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org

Chris, you are getting downright loony. Roughly 1% of the electricity
in the US is generated from oil, whether foreign or domestic:

http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/i..._united_states

Man, if you're going to be lazy and ignorant, you should at least
learn to keep your mouth shut until you wise up and stop looking like
a fool. You've become ridiculous.

Not that I have any irresistible urge to defend our resident mormon, but
dayum, I don't think too many people knew that oil was just 1% of
electricity generation -- less than renewables, according to that site. Dat
was quite the eye-opener!

Well, that's a good thing. It took less than 20 seconds to look it up
and document it (although I knew the answer before I looked it up,
because it's something that interests me and I keep up with it).

What grates me is that people will make these accusatory claims
WITHOUT EVEN BOTHERING TO CHECK FIRST IF THEY'RE BEING STUPID!

I can't understand that. It's willful ignorance, topped by
scapegoating and accusing others of malevolence, stupidity, or worse.

What makes someone do something so stupid? I'm still shaking my head.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not talking about making mistakes or just
talking off the top of one's head. We all do that, a lot. The grating
part is then taking those unchecked "facts" and accusing someone else
of being ignorant or whatever. That's inexcusable. It's almost
obscene.

Renewables are presumably wind, pv's, and hydro-electric. I'da thought
hydro-electric would have been more.

Hydro is 6%. All other renewables are 4%.

T Boone Pickens was trying to corner the market on nat gas, iirc.

I think he was trying to corner the wind, too. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

OT Chevy Volt
 

On 2012-02-26, Stormin Mormon wrote:
1) If it were feasable, it would already be in the works
2) We reduce dependance on foreign oil with domestic drilling and building
more refineries. ANWR, Gulf of Mexico, etc.
3) So, where do you think we get the fuel to make the electricity to power
the car? Probably from electric plants that burn foreign oil. d'uh.

Electric plants do not burn "foreign oil".

If battery technology was sufficiently good, almost no one would be
driving fuel powered cars. All that is needed is improve storage
density and to speed up the charging process.

i

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
...

I'm generally not a fan of government subsidies, but this is an
exception. This technology won't get off the ground without it. If we
wait till fuel is $10 a gal to start, it will be too late.

The Volt needs more work before its ready. With just a bit more work,
there should be a commuter car that will take you on short trips twice
a day. That's a great potential to reduce our dependence on foreign
oil.

Karl

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 26, 2:21*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 08:07:22 -0800, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote:

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 19:18:48 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp

No, not hardly. *It's not as economically efficient as a regular car
when you figure in the added purchase price, but only by a little.
It's the huge government subsidies that aren't figured into the
operating costs that make it a stupid move.

I'm generally not a fan of government subsidies, but this is an
exception. This technology won't get off the ground without it. If we
wait till fuel is $10 a gal to start, it will be too late.

The Volt needs more work before its ready. With just a bit more work,
there should be a commuter car that will take you on short trips twice
a day. That's a great potential to reduce our dependence on foreign
oil.

Karl

Why is it that even though this technology has been around LONGER than
gas engines and almost as long as cars have even been available that
"Electrics need just a bit more work"???? And that everyone should have
to pay for this work?
* How about the fact that they are NOT a practical vehicle for more than
a VERY small segment of the population who in all likelihood don't even
own a car now and that for the few people who actually want them now are
buying NOT for any real reason other than "SEE WHAT I DO FOR THE
ENVIRONMENT", Ever notice what these folks usually do with these cars?
Take look at the ones who buy them, they take them out for special
events and demonstrations but the rest of the time they drive the good
old reliable gas burner.

A "commuter car for short trips" Just going back and forth to work for
many is a 30 or more mile one way drive. What do you use while the
electric car is charging? How about when a big storm hits and knocks out
all the power for miles around? How do you charge up then?

"The technology just isn't there yet" Seems to be the constant cry of
the folks who think that Solar/Wind/electric/hybrid items are the best
way to go. Amazing when you look at how much money has been put into all
of them over the years and how many outright failures there have been.
You would think that after 100 plus years of research and money they
would have things up and running without needing *to steal money from
other people to keep going.

Same thing with passenger rail. The current mantra is to build MORE high
speed rail, this in areas where passenger rail was removed over the past
30-40 years because it wasn't used enough to keep it operating. Sounds
just like the thing to do..

How about these companies go to the public and ask for the money instead
of grants through the government. If the products look to be truly
viable they will get funding. If they are a joke then they don't.

--
Steve W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another conservative who should think before he rants.

The problem with electric versus gas is energy density.

And FWIW...an electric would work great for most Americans...because
of the short trips they make.

Now go do your homework and come back later to say thank you to a
liberal who showed you The Way.

TMT

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 26, 2:39*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 08:07:22 -0800, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human





readable)" wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 19:18:48 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp

No, not hardly. *It's not as economically efficient as a regular car
when you figure in the added purchase price, but only by a little.
It's the huge government subsidies that aren't figured into the
operating costs that make it a stupid move.

Has GM paid back all of the $13.4B they got in the bailout yet? the
last figure I saw was $8.1B repaid by April of 2010.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trouble...Relief_Program
Or are you referring to another subsidy? *I'm not nearly as critical
of the TARP program now that much of it has been paid back.

------------------------
Cost to operate a Chevy Volt

I can't believe they're trying to get $46k (merely -double- the cost
of a Prius) for those things. *http://tinyurl.com/7evjd2c

For $20k less, I'd go for a Toyota Camry Hybrid and be extremely
happy. $25.9-27.4k. $2k upgrade from Prius to Camry? No brainer.

Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the
Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors.

Makes one wonder how much they paid him for the article.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery hold 16 kwh
of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.

The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so
I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16
per kwh.

16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.

That's the big whopper in the piece, I even balked at that one before
even seeing the Snopes link - they have their energy priced 10X too
high, and probably on purpose to make it sound worse.

What are those, Gnu Yawk City prices? *sigh

Depending on the region and the transportation costs part of the power
price of course, it's more like $0.10 to $0.12 a KWH range from a
fossil-fuel fired plant, not $1.10 to $1.20.

Yup.

--snip--

But that's what the Rural Electrification Administration is for, to
subsidize those costs. *Otherwise great swaths of the Midwest and
Rockies would still be lighting their houses with Kerosene lanterns.

Now called the RUS, or Rural Utilities Service.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_E...Administration

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- John Quincy Adams- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hey those GM workers are getting $7000 bonus checks.

And they are going to not vote for Romney.

TMT

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 26, 4:59*pm, a friend
wrote:
On 2/26/2012 12:21 PM, Steve W. wrote:





Karl Townsend wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 08:07:22 -0800, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote:

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 19:18:48 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp

No, not hardly. It's not as economically efficient as a regular car
when you figure in the added purchase price, but only by a little.
It's the huge government subsidies that aren't figured into the
operating costs that make it a stupid move.

I'm generally not a fan of government subsidies, but this is an
exception. This technology won't get off the ground without it. If we
wait till fuel is $10 a gal to start, it will be too late.

The Volt needs more work before its ready. With just a bit more work,
there should be a commuter car that will take you on short trips twice
a day. That's a great potential to reduce our dependence on foreign
oil.

Karl

Why is it that even though this technology has been around LONGER than
gas engines and almost as long as cars have even been available that
"Electrics need just a bit more work"???? And that everyone should have
to pay for this work?
How about the fact that they are NOT a practical vehicle for more than a
VERY small segment of the population who in all likelihood don't even
own a car now and that for the few people who actually want them now are
buying NOT for any real reason other than "SEE WHAT I DO FOR THE
ENVIRONMENT", Ever notice what these folks usually do with these cars?
Take look at the ones who buy them, they take them out for special
events and demonstrations but the rest of the time they drive the good
old reliable gas burner.

A "commuter car for short trips" Just going back and forth to work for
many is a 30 or more mile one way drive. What do you use while the
electric car is charging? How about when a big storm hits and knocks out
all the power for miles around? How do you charge up then?

"The technology just isn't there yet" Seems to be the constant cry of
the folks who think that Solar/Wind/electric/hybrid items are the best
way to go. Amazing when you look at how much money has been put into all
of them over the years and how many outright failures there have been.
You would think that after 100 plus years of research and money they
would have things up and running without needing to steal money from
other people to keep going.

Same thing with passenger rail. The current mantra is to build MORE high
speed rail, this in areas where passenger rail was removed over the past
30-40 years because it wasn't used enough to keep it operating. Sounds
just like the thing to do..

How about these companies go to the public and ask for the money instead
of grants through the government. If the products look to be truly
viable they will get funding. If they are a joke then they don't.

perhaps you have never been to Europe or Asia where they actually have
had subsidized transit for decades, and they have mass transit and
electric cars and they work. *It is only because our government has,
through the complicity of fools like the above poster, subsidized the
automotive industry and systematically destroyed passenger rail in many
locations that we have the absolute mess we are in now. *Places like
Boston and Wash DC have trains that actually carry people around and
these people don't use cars - places like Los Angeles used to have a
great network of trains (many electric) and buses, but they were shut
down and the right-of-ways purchased to prevent their being reinstated
so that the population would buy cars, and then we subsidize public
roads to the tune of billions per year.

Your data about electric cars is just plain wrong, and you know it. *The
turn of the century electric car, with lead acid batteries is not the
same technology. *You are among those who wish to destroy the nation by
crippling us with pollution, paralyzingly high energy prices, and a
population of uneducated drones fit only to flip burgers and sew shoes
for off-shore companies. *Why people like you want this future is beyond
me, perhaps you can explain it to us all.

--
For a $5 dollar donation today you get credit for $10 with HIM- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Jealousy.

Conservative never want anyone to better themselves beyond the
failures they have become.

TMT

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 26, 5:03*pm, a friend
wrote:
On 2/26/2012 2:48 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

1) If it were feasable, it would already be in the works
2) We reduce dependance on foreign oil with domestic drilling and building
more refineries. ANWR, Gulf of Mexico, etc.
3) So, where do you think we get the fuel to make the electricity to power
the car? Probably from electric plants that *burn foreign oil. d'uh.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
* *www.lds.org

have you actually lost the ability to use that wonderful brain that god
gave all of us? *did you even read your words? *"If it were feasible it
would already be in the works" - in 1950, was your laptop "in the
works"??? it was feasible, its existence proves its feasible, but it
wasn't known until the technology matured.

if you drill domestically we will just ship our oil overseas - are you
actually unaware that today the US is a net exporter of gasoline?

Fuel to make electricity for domestic electric cars comes predominantly
from domestically produced natural gas.

Get your facts straight before you make wild claims.

--
For a $5 dollar donation today you get credit for $10 with HIM

It was announced recently that the oil companies are EXPORTING
AMERICAN OIL because they can make more money on it.

TMT

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 26, 5:16*pm, "Artemus" wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

...



....
Much more significant is the cost of the battery divided by its capacity times
cycle life, to give dollars per KWH. With lead-acids, solar power doesn't break
even for me if the panels are free.
jsw

That is a major factor that the mfgrs, media, politicians, and greenie weenies
seem to be ignoring.

According tohttp://www.gavinshoebridge.com/electric-car-conversion/electric-car-b...

Avg battery lifespan in electric vehicle applications
* Normal Car Starting Batteries: 3-12 months
* Marine Batteries: 1-6 years
* Golf Cart Batteries: 2-7 years
* AGM Deep Cycle: 4-7 years
* Gelled Deep Cycle: 2-5 years
* Ni-Cad Batteries: 1-20 years
* Ni-MH Batteries: 2-10 years
* LiFePO4 Batteries: 6-10 years

Nissan's cost for their Leaf elec car battery is $15,600 and this is not expected to
come down.http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...57553624293452...
So people like me who keep their cars for longer than this (I've had my Toyota PU for
28 years and the Ford Explorer for 19) would have this major replacement cost to look
forward to again and again.
Art

Ever hear of costs dropping as sales go up?

The computer you are using is an example of it.

TMT

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 26, 5:19*pm, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
On 2/26/2012 11:53 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:





On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:29:47 -0500, Stuart
wrote:

On 2/26/2012 7:18 AM, John B. wrote:

I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?

No, there is not.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp

The Snopes rebuttle is fatally flawed. *It takes the same amount of time
to drive across the country????

Since when the battery is run down it runs on the gas engine, yes, it
can go cross country just like any IC vehicle.

But the Volt is not designed for x-country use. *It is optimised for the
large number of Americans who commute a dozen miles or so daily, who can
charge it during off peak hours every night, but still offers a back-up
plan so you never suffer the inability to go when you need to regardless
of the charging time.

OH yeah, you can fit it with a Gun rack too.http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_1...-can-put-a-gun...





Hardly. Its sadly more of a mish mash than the original article

Gunner- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The real problem can you fit a conservative in it?

Those Republican boys and girls are WIDE LOADS.

TMT

OT Chevy Volt
 

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
.. .
Easier just to drive a Honda automobile.
Christopher A. Young .

"Larry Jaques" wrote
I wonder how far a quiet li'l Honda EU generator would take an EV.
The
Hondas run 8+ hours per tank of gas. Pop that puppy in the trunk,
route the exhaust out the bottom/back, and drive nonstop to Vegas
from
anywhere! (Well, not from Australia.)

To put this in numerical perspective, a 3KW generator needs a 5HP
engine. Ever drive a 40HP Volkswagen on long trips?

I had a 1978 Accord with 68 HP (51KW)
http://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/10/16/...age-1978-2007/

It really would give the mileage shown on the graph. I averaged 36 to
38 locally and up to 44 on a trip from NH to Georgia. I was satisfied
with its horsepower but it wouldn't sell now.

jsw

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 26, 5:42*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:19:57 -0500, Stuart Wheaton





wrote:
On 2/26/2012 11:53 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:29:47 -0500, Stuart
wrote:

On 2/26/2012 7:18 AM, John B. wrote:

I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?

No, there is not.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp

The Snopes rebuttle is fatally flawed. *It takes the same amount of time
to drive across the country????

Since when the battery is run down it runs on the gas engine, yes, it
can go cross country just like any IC vehicle.

But the Volt is not designed for x-country use. *It is optimised for the
large number of Americans who commute a dozen miles or so daily, who can
charge it during off peak hours every night, but still offers a back-up
plan so you never suffer the inability to go when you need to regardless
of the charging time.

OH yeah, you can fit it with a Gun rack too.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_1...-can-put-a-gun...

68% of Americans commute less than 15 miles one-way to work:

http://www.bts.gov/publications/omni...ue_04/html/fig...

In other words, the vast majority of those who drive to work can cover
their trips on electricity only, with an all-electric (Nissan Leaf) or
a plug-in hybrid (Chevy Volt).

--
Ed Huntress





Hardly. Its sadly more of a mish mash than the original article

Gunner- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And will...and without a drop of gasoline.

That is what keeps oil CEOs up at night.

TMT

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:19:57 -0500, Stuart Wheaton
wrote:

On 2/26/2012 11:53 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:29:47 -0500, Stuart
wrote:

On 2/26/2012 7:18 AM, John B. wrote:


I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?


No, there is not.


http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp



The Snopes rebuttle is fatally flawed. It takes the same amount of time
to drive across the country????

Since when the battery is run down it runs on the gas engine, yes, it
can go cross country just like any IC vehicle.

But the Volt is not designed for x-country use. It is optimised for the
large number of Americans who commute a dozen miles or so daily, who can
charge it during off peak hours every night, but still offers a back-up
plan so you never suffer the inability to go when you need to regardless
of the charging time.

So then you agree with the original statement and have found the Snopes
to be a mish mash.

Thanks for your agreement.

OH yeah, you can fit it with a Gun rack too.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_1...ack-in-a-volt/

""Seriously, when was the last time you saw a gun rack in ANY sedan?" He
adds that the Volt "can do a lot of things, but if you are looking for a
vehicle for your next hunting trip, it may not be your first choice. "

Ive had gun racks in each and every vehicle Ive ever owned. Including
the last 3 Volvos.

Hunting trips? Are gun racks only for hunting trips?

Odd that.

I often carry a combat shotgun in my racks. Hardly a hunting weapon.

Gunner





Hardly. Its sadly more of a mish mash than the original article

Gunner


--
One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 26, 10:20*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:19:57 -0500, Stuart Wheaton
wrote:





On 2/26/2012 11:53 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:29:47 -0500, Stuart
wrote:

On 2/26/2012 7:18 AM, John B. wrote:

I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?

No, there is not.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp

The Snopes rebuttle is fatally flawed. *It takes the same amount of time
to drive across the country????

Since when the battery is run down it runs on the gas engine, yes, it
can go cross country just like any IC vehicle.

But the Volt is not designed for x-country use. *It is optimised for the
large number of Americans who commute a dozen miles or so daily, who can
charge it during off peak hours every night, but still offers a back-up
plan so you never suffer the inability to go when you need to regardless
of the charging time.

So then *you agree with the original statement and have found the Snopes
to be a mish mash.

Thanks for your agreement.

OH yeah, you can fit it with a Gun rack too.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_1...-can-put-a-gun...

""Seriously, when was the last time you saw a gun rack in ANY sedan?" He
adds that the Volt "can do a lot of things, but if you are looking for a
vehicle for your next hunting trip, it may not be your first choice. "

Ive had gun racks in each and every vehicle Ive ever owned. Including
the last 3 Volvos.

Hunting trips? *Are gun racks only for hunting trips?

Odd that.

I often carry a combat shotgun in my racks. Hardly a hunting weapon.

Gunner



Hardly. Its sadly more of a mish mash than the original article

Gunner


And GummyBear proves that at last, he has lost what little was left of
his decrepit mind.

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 14:59:49 -0800, a friend
wrote:

perhaps you have never been to Europe or Asia where they actually have
had subsidized transit for decades, and they have mass transit and
electric cars and they work. It is only because our government has,
through the complicity of fools like the above poster, subsidized the
automotive industry and systematically destroyed passenger rail in many
locations that we have the absolute mess we are in now.

So we have no light rail in urban areas here in the US?

Or do you consider commuter trains to be cost effective west of the
Mississippi River? Say...Lander Wyoming to humm...Portland Or?

The Greens want California to spend 250 BILLION dollars for a high speed
rail between Bakersfield and Corcorun.

Bakersfield is the county seat for a county with 800,000 people and
Corcorun has the prison where Charlie Manson is incarcerated.

Sweet eh?


--
One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:38:04 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

John B. wrote in
:

I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?
[...]
The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so
I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16
per kwh.

No way in the world that's true.


You live in a very small world dont you Doug?

Its not all TVA power across America

Gunner

--
One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

OT Chevy Volt
 

John B. wrote:




I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?

Yup, it is all true, as far as I can tell. A number of people
have tried to parse the limited details GM has released.
As best as they can figure, the car gets 26 MPG on the gas
engine, which is pretty pitiful. Instead of creating a
gas engine that could run a generator at some optimum
speed and load at peak efficiency, they just put in a
standard car engine that is WAYY too big for this purpose.
It only needs to provide about 12 - 15 HP to keep up with the
demands of level highway load. But, it is not a true
hybrid. It is either a battery-electric car or a gasoline
car with electric transmission, once the battery is depleted.
I don't understand the logic on that. I drive a Honda
Civic hybrid, that makes (nearly) best use of both functions all
the time. It has a very weak gas engine that tries to stay
in Atkinson cycle as much as possible, and a battery-motor
drive for acceleration. I get 47 - 56 MPG depending on
who drives it and the weather conditions.

When GM cites the economy in equivalent MPG, they always assume
electricity is free - that's fraud right there! Now, electricity
is MUCH cheaper most places than gasoline, but it isn't free.

Depending on the driver, the road conditions, etc. the 25 miles
on battery is a little worse than others have gotten, but not
way out of line.

If the Volt is not a scam, it comes pretty close! It might make
a great test bed for somebody that wants to experiment with
hacking one of these up to extend range with huge batteries
and rip out the klunker gas engine. These might come up cheap
on the market after owners find out it doesn't work like they
expected.

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 20:50:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
. ..
Easier just to drive a Honda automobile.
Christopher A. Young .

"Larry Jaques" wrote
I wonder how far a quiet li'l Honda EU generator would take an EV.
The
Hondas run 8+ hours per tank of gas. Pop that puppy in the trunk,
route the exhaust out the bottom/back, and drive nonstop to Vegas
from
anywhere! (Well, not from Australia.)

To put this in numerical perspective, a 3KW generator needs a 5HP

I seem to have missed that 3KV figure/requirement, but Honda does make
a 3000EU...


engine. Ever drive a 40HP Volkswagen on long trips?

I have been in VW bugs half a dozen times in my life, never for more
than ten minutes. I took a trip across the Oakland(?) Bay Bridge in
1968 in a VW ban when there were 40mph gusts at 90 degrees to us. We
were anywhere from 30-45 degrees tilted the whole trip across. It
scared the absolute crap out of me. I have never been in another VW
van since then and don't intend to. Oh, I was hit by a low flying VW
bug in '90 or so. It gave me a nastyass whiplash, dented my nose and
forehead (even with the seatbelt on) and I've never forgiven the
damned things or the people who drive VWs. They're just OFF. Feh!

So, no. I've never been in any VW for a long trip. But the gearing
and torque are totally different in an EV.


I had a 1978 Accord with 68 HP (51KW)
http://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/10/16/...age-1978-2007/

It really would give the mileage shown on the graph. I averaged 36 to
38 locally and up to 44 on a trip from NH to Georgia. I was satisfied
with its horsepower but it wouldn't sell now.

Accords have always been spirited little beauts. Nice cars, Honda. I
wouldn't buy a used one, though. Once they start on the downhill
slide, they go like a rockslide.

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams

OT Chevy Volt
 

Larry Jaques wrote:



I wonder how far a quiet li'l Honda EU generator would take an EV. The
Hondas run 8+ hours per tank of gas. Pop that puppy in the trunk,
route the exhaust out the bottom/back, and drive nonstop to Vegas from
anywhere! (Well, not from Australia.)
Won't quite work. The typical US passenger car (presumably a smaller
model) takes somewhere between 12 - 15 Hp to propel it at highway
speed. Wind resistance goes up at the cube of speed, so slowing down
even a little helps a lot. Our university did an extended-range
hybrid some years ago with an 18-HP v-twin B&S lawnmower engine.
The team leader installed electronic fuel injection on the engine
to clean it up and reduce fuel consumption. The car was a donated
Ford Taurus station wagon with manual transmission. After trying
to figure out how to make a parallel hybrid for a while, they gave
up and made it a serial hybrid, with the engine electrically
coupled to the battery bus. The rules required 40 mile range on
electric only, and able to run 40 MPH, I think, on the gas engine.
I would have liked to get more test data on it, but they did achieve
those requirements.

So, a little gas generator in the 2 - 3 KW class won't do it.
Somewhere around 15 KW is going to be needed for continuous
highway driving, assuming some losses here and there.

Of course, Honda with the Civic and Insight hybrids and Toyota
with the Prius and clones have a BUNCH of tricks to help
out. The use 0W5 oil for low engine losses, low rolling
resistance tires, plastic panels under the entire car to
cut wind drag on the underside, and so on.

The original 2-seat Insight got GREAT gas mileage with a
950 CC 3-cyl engine. I saw one on eBay that had a lifetime
average of 87 MPG over 113K miles. They just photographed
the dashboard display. So, IT CAN be done!

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

Artemus wrote:


Avg battery lifespan in electric vehicle applications
Normal Car Starting Batteries: 3-12 months
Marine Batteries: 1-6 years
Golf Cart Batteries: 2-7 years
AGM Deep Cycle: 4-7 years
Gelled Deep Cycle: 2-5 years
Ni-Cad Batteries: 1-20 years
Ni-MH Batteries: 2-10 years
LiFePO4 Batteries: 6-10 years

Nissan's cost for their Leaf elec car battery is $15,600 and this is not
expected to come down.
There is a cottage industry springing up with guys selling battery
rebuilding services and also the parts and instructions to rebuild
your OWN hybrid batteries for WAYY less than the factory rebuilds.
In many cases you can fix a seriously bad battery by replacing 2
to 5 cells for about $100 - 150. So, when the extended battery warranty
runs out, there are options besides a VERY expensive total replacement.

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

Stuart Wheaton wrote:

On 2/26/2012 7:18 AM, John B. wrote:


I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?


No, there is not.


http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp

First, you DON'T have to stop and charge the thing via electricity
before getting going again. You fill the gas tank and go.
So, that part WAS false.

The electric rates cited were really bogus for anyplace in the
continental US. Maybe if you are on an island with only Diesel-
generated power from barged-in fuel, maybe. So, those cost
calcs were bogus.

But, MUCH of the rest of that article WAS true. Even the
snopes rebuttal says basically you are NOT SUPPOSED to drive
it long distances. Well, you can, but it just isn't efficient
that way. The electric range is about what others have reported
from test drives.

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

Karl Townsend wrote:



The Volt needs more work before its ready. With just a bit more work,
there should be a commuter car that will take you on short trips twice
a day. That's a great potential to reduce our dependence on foreign
oil.
Right, they need a MUCH smaller, lighter engine that is optimized for
peak efficiency, not jack rabbit starts. Then, they need to
turn it into a full, cooperative hybrid, so the engine runs
when needed to maintain the battery charge, and the battery can be
used for acceleration.

In the meantime, I drive a Honda Civic Hybrid. It uses gas all
the time, but I get 47 - 56 MPG in mixed driving every day.
If everybody already had these, we could cut our gas consumption
in half!

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 22:37:07 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:



I wonder how far a quiet li'l Honda EU generator would take an EV. The
Hondas run 8+ hours per tank of gas. Pop that puppy in the trunk,
route the exhaust out the bottom/back, and drive nonstop to Vegas from
anywhere! (Well, not from Australia.)
Won't quite work. The typical US passenger car (presumably a smaller
model) takes somewhere between 12 - 15 Hp to propel it at highway
speed. Wind resistance goes up at the cube of speed,

Ah, I believe that's the square of speed, Jon:

D = Cd pV^2A/2

(Drag equals coefficient of drag times gas density times velocity
squared times frontal area over two)

Where the cube factor comes into play is in the *power* required as
velocity increases. This is because you're moving farther in a given
amount of time, which requires more work in that amount of time. So
the drag is the relative velocities squared, and you multiply that
result by the relative rate of doing work, and you wind up with a cube
relationship.

I'm never very good at explaining these things. I hope that gets
through the static.

An example: Neglecting other forms of drag, if a car requires 10 hp at
40 mph, it will require 80 hp at 80 mph.

--
Ed Huntress

slowing down
even a little helps a lot. Our university did an extended-range
hybrid some years ago with an 18-HP v-twin B&S lawnmower engine.
The team leader installed electronic fuel injection on the engine
to clean it up and reduce fuel consumption. The car was a donated
Ford Taurus station wagon with manual transmission. After trying
to figure out how to make a parallel hybrid for a while, they gave
up and made it a serial hybrid, with the engine electrically
coupled to the battery bus. The rules required 40 mile range on
electric only, and able to run 40 MPH, I think, on the gas engine.
I would have liked to get more test data on it, but they did achieve
those requirements.

So, a little gas generator in the 2 - 3 KW class won't do it.
Somewhere around 15 KW is going to be needed for continuous
highway driving, assuming some losses here and there.

Of course, Honda with the Civic and Insight hybrids and Toyota
with the Prius and clones have a BUNCH of tricks to help
out. The use 0W5 oil for low engine losses, low rolling
resistance tires, plastic panels under the entire car to
cut wind drag on the underside, and so on.

The original 2-seat Insight got GREAT gas mileage with a
950 CC 3-cyl engine. I saw one on eBay that had a lifetime
average of 87 MPG over 113K miles. They just photographed
the dashboard display. So, IT CAN be done!

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 22:24:46 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

John B. wrote:




I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?

Yup, it is all true, as far as I can tell. A number of people
have tried to parse the limited details GM has released.
As best as they can figure, the car gets 26 MPG on the gas
engine, which is pretty pitiful. Instead of creating a
gas engine that could run a generator at some optimum
speed and load at peak efficiency, they just put in a
standard car engine that is WAYY too big for this purpose.
It only needs to provide about 12 - 15 HP to keep up with the
demands of level highway load. But, it is not a true

Yeah, that would be the ideal fix. That smaller engine would likely
be much quieter and lighter, too. But is the air conditioning system
the reason for the larger, auto-style engine?


hybrid. It is either a battery-electric car or a gasoline
car with electric transmission, once the battery is depleted.
I don't understand the logic on that. I drive a Honda
Civic hybrid, that makes (nearly) best use of both functions all
the time. It has a very weak gas engine that tries to stay
in Atkinson cycle as much as possible, and a battery-motor
drive for acceleration. I get 47 - 56 MPG depending on
who drives it and the weather conditions.

The Camry hybrid gets 43/39 and they're extremely nice cars to begin
with. Toyota has two winners in its midst. They're just $2-3k more
than the basic cardboard Prius (the car most enjoyed by ascetics.)

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 22:52:07 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Karl Townsend wrote:



The Volt needs more work before its ready. With just a bit more work,
there should be a commuter car that will take you on short trips twice
a day. That's a great potential to reduce our dependence on foreign
oil.
Right, they need a MUCH smaller, lighter engine that is optimized for
peak efficiency, not jack rabbit starts.

Jon, I think you misunderstand the configuration of the Chevy Volt. It
is a serial hybrid, not a parallel hybrid like your Civic. It doesn't
matter how large or small the engine is in the Volt. It won't
accelerate any faster, except perhaps with a nearly-dead battery,
because the engine has no mechanical connection to the wheels --
again, unlike your parallel-hybrid Civic (or Prius, or whatever). The
Volt runs on the electric motor only. The engine just charges the
battery. That's how a serial hybrid works.

Serial hybrids are theoretically more efficient for the plug-in hybrid
configuration. Parallel hybrids are the way to go when the battery is
just a booster and a sort of fill-in for the mechanically connected
gas engine, as on your Civic. The two cars are based on essentially
different power/driveline concepts.

Parellel hybrids shine in stop-and-go city traffic. On the highway,
the battery and electric motor are mostly dead weight, although you
get a compensating benefit (more than compensating, in the better
parallel-hybrid examples) by using a smaller gas engine than you would
have without the battery boost for acceleration and hill climbing.
Also, the pseudo-Atkinson cycle engine used in the Prius, and maybe in
your Civic, is slightly more efficient than a conventional Otto-cycle
engine. An Atkinson-cycle engine is too unresponsive to use in a car
without the electric motor to step in when you step on the gas and
expect things to happen right now.

Serial hybrids shine when you have a fair percentage of short trips --
under 30 miles or so in the case of the Volt -- and you don't need to
switch the gas engine on at all. As I pointed out in an earlier
message, the sruveys show that 68% percent of the commuters in the US
travel less than 30 miles round-trip each day.

These serial hybrids are the future for plug-in configurations.
Parallel hybrids are an interim step that makes sense now for many
people as long as battery costs are so high. Eventually, they'll be
replaced with serial hybrids when everyone starts demanding the
plug-in capabililty. To make a parallel-hybrid a plug-in, you need the
same large battery capacity as the Volt, and you're then dragging
around a lot of driveline components that you don't really need once
you have all-electric, plug-in capability.

They're two different ideas. The Prius/Civic is a waystop on the way
to plug-ins. The Volt is a little bit ahead of its time, because
batteries still cost too much and the range probably needs to be 50
miles to reach the needs of a larger segment of the driving public.
But the Volt is where we're headed, and every car manufacturer knows
it.

Then, they need to
turn it into a full, cooperative hybrid, so the engine runs
when needed to maintain the battery charge, and the battery can be
used for acceleration.

See above.

--
Ed Huntress


In the meantime, I drive a Honda Civic Hybrid. It uses gas all
the time, but I get 47 - 56 MPG in mixed driving every day.
If everybody already had these, we could cut our gas consumption
in half!

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:38:04 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

John B. wrote in
m:

I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?
[...]
The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so
I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16
per kwh.

No way in the world that's true.


You live in a very small world dont you Doug?

Its not all TVA power across America

You really don't know much at all, do you? NOBODY in America pays anywhere NEAR that
for electricity.

OT Chevy Volt
 

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 20:50:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

To put this in numerical perspective, a 3KW generator needs a 5HP

I seem to have missed that 3KV figure/requirement, but Honda does
make
a 3000EU...

3KW is not a requirement, it shows how completely inadequate a
portable generator is for the task.

Logical analysis isn't one of your strong points, is it?

jsw

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 07:44:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 20:50:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

To put this in numerical perspective, a 3KW generator needs a 5HP

I seem to have missed that 3KV figure/requirement, but Honda does
make
a 3000EU...

3KW is not a requirement, it shows how completely inadequate a
portable generator is for the task.

I don't have the figures for the vehicle in front of me. shrug


Logical analysis isn't one of your strong points, is it?

KMA,H.

--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:20:36 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
John B. wrote:


I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?

Some, but not a lot.

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/02/24...ifiably-false/
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/02/...sive-to-drive/

Just google for "chevy volt email" for more links.

One issue is that the volt is meant as a short-haul commuter. You use
it as an electric car for 99% of your regular commuting, and then the
gas motor kicks in for long trips. The author of the anti-Volt email
deliberately chose a usage pattern that shows the Volt at its worst.


But its still a valid usage pattern, correct? When compared to standard
automobiles.

If one were talking about bumper cars..then perhaps it wouldnt be.

Correct?

Gunner



--
One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 12:54:04 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:


That's in addition to making ridiculous claims about how the car would
be used: Why would anyone keep charging the batteries every 270 miles
if he was on a long trip? He'd just keep filling with gas.

Well, yeah, the idea behind the car design is that you'd use
electricity for daily commuting, shopping at the local mall etc, but
if you needed to go on a long trip (or if you failed to charge) you'd
be able to use the same car, but in gasoline mode, so you can fill up
in 3.5 minutes including pee break.

Makes perfect sense, since most of us drive most of our miles/klicks
in a fairly small radius, but want the ability to go further
occasionally (and we also worry about running out of charge).

At a higher level, there is a big issue with renewable energy in that
storage (for when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining on
the panels) is expensive. One could imagine, say, 100,000,000 cars
plugged into the grid, and allowed to feed back, say, 20% of their
charge into the grid overnight (the owner would be paid back for that
energy and that service). Then, during the day, the cars could charge,
say with solar, and the owner would be billed for the net.

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:00:42 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:20:36 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
John B. wrote:


I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?

Some, but not a lot.

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/02/24...ifiably-false/
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/02/...sive-to-drive/

Just google for "chevy volt email" for more links.

One issue is that the volt is meant as a short-haul commuter. You use
it as an electric car for 99% of your regular commuting, and then the
gas motor kicks in for long trips. The author of the anti-Volt email
deliberately chose a usage pattern that shows the Volt at its worst.


But its still a valid usage pattern, correct? When compared to standard
automobiles.

No. No one would drive 270 miles, then stop and recharge the battery,
and count the recharge time as "trip time." Conversely, if you charged
the battery before your trip, no one but a moron would count that
charge time as "trip time." The whole thing is baloney.

If you had to go more than 270 miles you would simply re-fill the gas
tank. Battery charging time doesn't enter into it.

--
Ed Huntress


If one were talking about bumper cars..then perhaps it wouldnt be.

Correct?

Gunner

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 14:01:38 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 12:54:04 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:


That's in addition to making ridiculous claims about how the car would
be used: Why would anyone keep charging the batteries every 270 miles
if he was on a long trip? He'd just keep filling with gas.

Well, yeah, the idea behind the car design is that you'd use
electricity for daily commuting, shopping at the local mall etc, but
if you needed to go on a long trip (or if you failed to charge) you'd
be able to use the same car, but in gasoline mode, so you can fill up
in 3.5 minutes including pee break.

Yeah. The viability of all of the electric-only and plug-in hybrid
cars is based on certain patterns of use. For the all-electic, it's
nothing but short hauls. At their present state of development, the
plug-ins are based on a large portion of short hauls.

As it has been for 100 years, the limitiation of any of the electric
configurations that run at least part of the time on electricity only
is the batteries. The Volt, as I said, may be a bit ahead of its time.
But the configuration and the expected use patterns are perfectly
viable. They're just not *yet* cost-effective, for all but a limited
number of drivers.


Makes perfect sense, since most of us drive most of our miles/klicks
in a fairly small radius, but want the ability to go further
occasionally (and we also worry about running out of charge).

At a higher level, there is a big issue with renewable energy in that
storage (for when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining on
the panels) is expensive. One could imagine, say, 100,000,000 cars
plugged into the grid, and allowed to feed back, say, 20% of their
charge into the grid overnight (the owner would be paid back for that
energy and that service). Then, during the day, the cars could charge,
say with solar, and the owner would be billed for the net.

Those ideas are over my head. I read a paper or an article on using
cars as storage for the grid, but there are so many variables that I
haven't attempted to evaluate it.

--
Ed Huntress

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 27, 2:00*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:20:36 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.





Falk) wrote:
In article ,
John B. wrote:

I got this in my e-mail today from one of the people I now who send
jokes rather then bothers to write.

I initially was going to delete it but after reading it I wondered.

Is there any accuracy in this ?

Some, but not a lot.

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/02/24...chain-email-is...
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/02/...email-telling-...

Just google for "chevy volt email" for more links.

One issue is that the volt is meant as a short-haul commuter. *You use
it as an electric car for 99% of your regular commuting, and then the
gas motor kicks in for long trips. *The author of the anti-Volt email
deliberately chose a usage pattern that shows the Volt at its worst.

But its still a valid usage pattern, correct? When compared to standard
automobiles.

If one were talking about bumper cars..then perhaps it wouldnt be.

Correct?

Gunner

And if one were talking about argumentative loser clowns with gun
fetishes, GummyBear would float right to the top of the pile. But
here, we're talking about an electric car, which currently runs 25 -
50 miles on battery power. That would fit better than 90% of my
driving, without ever running the engine.

As Ed Begley Jr. said, "The electric vehicle is not for everybody. It
can only meet the needs of 90 percent of the population.”

my current commute is one flight of stairs to my office, and another
flight to my shop. The LONGEST regular commute I ever had was 11 miles
each way. The computer store is 12 miles from here, Harbor freight is
about nine miles and Sears Hardware is less than a mile.

OT Chevy Volt
 

Ed Huntress wrote:


Ah, I believe that's the square of speed, Jon:

D = Cd pV^2A/2

(Drag equals coefficient of drag times gas density times velocity
squared times frontal area over two)

Where the cube factor comes into play is in the *power* required as
velocity increases.
Whoops, you're right!

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

Ed Huntress wrote:


Jon, I think you misunderstand the configuration of the Chevy Volt. It
is a serial hybrid, not a parallel hybrid like your Civic. It doesn't
matter how large or small the engine is in the Volt. It won't
accelerate any faster, except perhaps with a nearly-dead battery,
because the engine has no mechanical connection to the wheels --
again, unlike your parallel-hybrid Civic (or Prius, or whatever). The
Volt runs on the electric motor only. The engine just charges the
battery. That's how a serial hybrid works.

No, I don't believe the Volt is a serial hybrid. What I understand,
entirely by reading articles on it, so that could be wrong, is that
it is a dual-mode vehicle. it runs off batteries until they are low, then
runs off the engine, but never allows the batteries to be charged by
the engine. Maybe the batteries can take charge when decelerating.
But, my understanding is once it has switched to engine power, is
will not behave as other hybrids.
Serial hybrids are theoretically more efficient for the plug-in hybrid
configuration. Parallel hybrids are the way to go when the battery is
just a booster and a sort of fill-in for the mechanically connected
gas engine, as on your Civic. The two cars are based on essentially
different power/driveline concepts.

Agreed!
Parellel hybrids shine in stop-and-go city traffic. On the highway,
the battery and electric motor are mostly dead weight, although you
get a compensating benefit (more than compensating, in the better
parallel-hybrid examples) by using a smaller gas engine than you would
have without the battery boost for acceleration and hill climbing.
Exactly! if the Volt allowed the battery system to stay operational
and used it like other hybrids, they could have cut the size of
the gas engine considerably. But, then they would have needed to make
an engine specific to the Volt, which they SHOULD have done! Cutting
weight has huge benefits.

The Honda Civic hybrid has only a 20 Hp assist motor, so it NEEDS a
fairly hefty engine. The Prius and Volt have enough electric motor
HP to use it as the primary drive.

They're two different ideas. The Prius/Civic is a waystop on the way
to plug-ins. The Volt is a little bit ahead of its time, because
batteries still cost too much and the range probably needs to be 50
miles to reach the needs of a larger segment of the driving public.
But the Volt is where we're headed, and every car manufacturer knows
it.
Well, mostly true, but there is no way for the serial scheme to beat
a parallel hybrid for low energy loss. Coupling a gas engine to the
wheels with a geared or CVT transmission has to be more efficient that
going from crankshaft to generator to VFD to VFD to motor to transmission
to wheels. Now, if you optimize the engine for ultra-efficiency and it
becomes problematic to directly drive the wheels with it, then it may
work out better.

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

Larry Jaques wrote:



Yeah, that would be the ideal fix. That smaller engine would likely
be much quieter and lighter, too. But is the air conditioning system
the reason for the larger, auto-style engine?

You certainly don't need 86 HP for an air conditioner. Both the
Prius and Honda Civic hybrid have electric air conditioning that
runs off the hybrid battery. 3 - 5 engine Hp is all it takes if running
off the engine. I assume the Volt also has to have electric A/C.

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 14:36:10 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:


Jon, I think you misunderstand the configuration of the Chevy Volt. It
is a serial hybrid, not a parallel hybrid like your Civic. It doesn't
matter how large or small the engine is in the Volt. It won't
accelerate any faster, except perhaps with a nearly-dead battery,
because the engine has no mechanical connection to the wheels --
again, unlike your parallel-hybrid Civic (or Prius, or whatever). The
Volt runs on the electric motor only. The engine just charges the
battery. That's how a serial hybrid works.

No, I don't believe the Volt is a serial hybrid. What I understand,
entirely by reading articles on it, so that could be wrong, is that
it is a dual-mode vehicle. it runs off batteries until they are low, then
runs off the engine, but never allows the batteries to be charged by
the engine.

Ha! All of Chevy's press releases described the car as a pure series
(or serial) hybrid:

http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/

Now I see that it's a hybrid hybrid -- maybe. g:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/e..._how_it_ticks/

On this one, scroll down to the GM press release. Some of the news
reports have said that the "second motor" is the electric generator.
Others say it's the gas engine. It appears to me, from Motor Trend's
analysis, that they're talking about the gas engine:

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...l-special.html

I realize that's a little hard to follow, but note that the batteries
ARE charged by the engine. The engine drives the wheels mechanically
only in a very limited realm. You'll note that one of the electric
motors is a generator that charges the battery.

Most of the time, the car runs as a serial hybrid, with the gas engine
(if it's running) charging the battery, and the battery powering the
electric motor that drives the car. Under some conditions, the gas
engine is clutched mechanically to the planetary gearset and
contributes to the drive power.

Maybe the batteries can take charge when decelerating.
But, my understanding is once it has switched to engine power, is
will not behave as other hybrids.

Serial hybrids are theoretically more efficient for the plug-in hybrid
configuration. Parallel hybrids are the way to go when the battery is
just a booster and a sort of fill-in for the mechanically connected
gas engine, as on your Civic. The two cars are based on essentially
different power/driveline concepts.

Agreed!

Parellel hybrids shine in stop-and-go city traffic. On the highway,
the battery and electric motor are mostly dead weight, although you
get a compensating benefit (more than compensating, in the better
parallel-hybrid examples) by using a smaller gas engine than you would
have without the battery boost for acceleration and hill climbing.

Exactly! if the Volt allowed the battery system to stay operational
and used it like other hybrids, they could have cut the size of
the gas engine considerably.

But the Volt's gas engine is only 1.4L, 80 hp. The Prius engine is
1.8L, 98 hp. The Honda Civic Hybrid's engine is 1.5L, 110 hp.

I haven't seen the weight figures on the engines, but the Volt's
engine is the smallest of the three in displacement. It's based on the
little Opel engine they sell in Europe.

But, then they would have needed to make
an engine specific to the Volt, which they SHOULD have done! Cutting
weight has huge benefits.

The Honda Civic hybrid has only a 20 Hp assist motor, so it NEEDS a
fairly hefty engine. The Prius and Volt have enough electric motor
HP to use it as the primary drive.

They're two different ideas. The Prius/Civic is a waystop on the way
to plug-ins. The Volt is a little bit ahead of its time, because
batteries still cost too much and the range probably needs to be 50
miles to reach the needs of a larger segment of the driving public.
But the Volt is where we're headed, and every car manufacturer knows
it.
Well, mostly true, but there is no way for the serial scheme to beat
a parallel hybrid for low energy loss. Coupling a gas engine to the
wheels with a geared or CVT transmission has to be more efficient that
going from crankshaft to generator to VFD to VFD to motor to transmission
to wheels. Now, if you optimize the engine for ultra-efficiency and it
becomes problematic to directly drive the wheels with it, then it may
work out better.

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Feb 27, 2:18*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:

Those ideas are over my head. I read a paper or an article on using
cars as storage for the grid, but there are so many variables that I
haven't attempted to evaluate it.

--
Ed Huntress

Take a look at http://www.priups.com for an interesting application. I
know this guy. He's kind of a kook, and not the nicest guy top work
for (I know a few of his ex-employees), but you have to admit, it's a
cool idea, and he's been doing it for years.

OT Chevy Volt
 

Ed Huntress wrote:




http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...l-special.html

I realize that's a little hard to follow, but note that the batteries
ARE charged by the engine. The engine drives the wheels mechanically
only in a very limited realm. You'll note that one of the electric
motors is a generator that charges the battery.
Well, this is totally new info, everything I've read so far says
there's no mechanical connection in the Volt!

But, quoting from the article :
There is no direct mechanical connection (fixed gear ratio) between the
Volts extended-range 1.4L engine and the drive wheels.

Jon

OT Chevy Volt
 

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:36:38 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:




http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...l-special.html

I realize that's a little hard to follow, but note that the batteries
ARE charged by the engine. The engine drives the wheels mechanically
only in a very limited realm. You'll note that one of the electric
motors is a generator that charges the battery.
Well, this is totally new info, everything I've read so far says
there's no mechanical connection in the Volt!

But, quoting from the article :
There is no direct mechanical connection (fixed gear ratio) between the
Volt’s extended-range 1.4L engine and the drive wheels.

Jon

Yabbut....if you read all of that stuff (only recommended if you're
obsessive, like me), you'll see that the article was sort of fudging.
It appears to me from the entirety of those press releases and
articles that the gas engine is clutched to one part of the planetary
gearset at some range of torque loads (one Chevy engineer says it's
torque, not road speed, that determines when it hooks up) and adds
approximately 10% of the total power delivered by the wheels.

Basically, it's a series hybrid setup with a complex coupling between
the primary motor, the secondary motor/generator, and the gas engine.
And the coupling looks like it's handled through clutching and
unclutching the planet-gear yoke and the ring gear. In several places
it says that the gas engine alone will not drive the wheels. That
sounds to me like the planetary gear set will freewheel if the main
electric motor isn't driving it with some force. In fact, I think
that's the explanation those writers were reaching for. As the
once-upon-a-time gear editor for American Machinist, I feel planetary
gearsets in my bones. g

Jeez. Did they have to do that to us? I never would have made a
comment here if I had known what was going on there. d8-)

Anyway, the Volt is one more step on the path to somewhere. I still
think it's ahead of its time, and that the only people who will buy
them are the early adopters who want to be first on their block with
something new.

--
Ed Huntress