On Sun, 08 May 2011 22:15:00 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Ive got a 5hp PC3 vfd running my Gorton MasterMill.
The top end voltage it is supposed to run on..is 230vts + about 5 volts
It will run down to 200 volts.
Im running it on single phase, been doing it for years.

Now the power company has increased my 220 single phase to about 249
volts and when I try to start it..I keep getting OverVoltage Alarm.

I cant get the power company to change the tap down to a normal voltage,
let alone 220 volts

How do I (cheaply) transform high voltage down 14-29 volts ac?

Id hate to loose the VFD on this mill and have to run it off a RPC
(which also puts out higher voltages)

Gunner

You may be able to increase the maximum voltage setting up to 255
volts using function code 2 , see page 7-3.

http://tinyurl.com/3o6ljtw

On Thu, 12 May 2011 16:36:25 -0500, Benny Fishhole
wrote:

On Sun, 08 May 2011 22:15:00 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Ive got a 5hp PC3 vfd running my Gorton MasterMill.
The top end voltage it is supposed to run on..is 230vts + about 5 volts
It will run down to 200 volts.
Im running it on single phase, been doing it for years.

Now the power company has increased my 220 single phase to about 249
volts and when I try to start it..I keep getting OverVoltage Alarm.

I cant get the power company to change the tap down to a normal voltage,
let alone 220 volts

How do I (cheaply) transform high voltage down 14-29 volts ac?

Id hate to loose the VFD on this mill and have to run it off a RPC
(which also puts out higher voltages)

Gunner

You may be able to increase the maximum voltage setting up to 255
volts using function code 2 , see page 7-3.

http://tinyurl.com/3o6ljtw


Oops, make that function code 3

Nice beard!

he looks just like you

and sound just like you


FLAT
Put that in your fancy out of date browsers
-------------

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message newssOdnUng3rvRX1fQnZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@scnresearch. com...


"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
...
Are YOU that stupid?

You too - that's enough. Bob

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qHUb...1&feature=fvwp

--

The group doesn't need to know about you communication failures.

LOL
-------------

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

But since it's apparent you're just arguing for arguements then I'm done
with it now goodbye TROLL

--

The biggest weapon against this crap is to use your killfilters. You sleep
much better and when they discover nobody listens to them they start to
think about it.
Usenet will be gone off the face of the earth in a few years dues to some
that are purposely trying to destroy it. Most ISPs willnot handle it
anymore.

Stand by for a demo of some of this, shortly.

---------------

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message ...
Yeah, I know about Usenet, but RCM has always been different. An oasis
in a desert of rudeness. It makes such a difference. On many groups
it's so unpleasant reading even when the rudeness is not directed at you.

Bob

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Cross-Slide wrote:

Maybe YOU are talking about an RPC, but the subject of the OP
is "
VFD
question "

It doesn't matter, since the transformer goes before anything
else.
It operates at line voltage, and in Gunner's case at a constant
60
Hz.

It does matter, a set of transformers can most certainly come after
a
RPC, if you only have buck transformers large enough to handle the
three
phase current, not the single phase current.


Why would you put three after the RPC when one at the input ddoes
it
right? Are you that stupid?


Because in the case of an RPC, the entire downstream bus in all
probability
has excessive voltage imbalances when measured phase to phase and even
even
a few percent of voltage imbalance has a very profoundly negative
effect
on
motor temtrature rise and energy losses to core heating....

Are YOU that stupid?


Sigh. Are you saying that you will adjust each transformer as you
change the load?


Sigh....

What I'm saying is to balance the RPC output voltage first and THEN apply
power factor correction on an as-needed basis at each individual load.


And overvolt the RPC motor? Not very smart, is it?


You ****ing moron--do I have to spell out every last detail ?

--just a couple posts ago I told you about voltage imbalance and its effect
on motor heating....which is a WAY more serious situation than is running
20% or so above ( or below nominal ) with BALANCED voltages.

1) Balance the converter, generally, capacitors are used.

2) Transform the output if needed ( notably, most 3ph transformers have taps
which allow for a slight buck/ boost adjustment on a per-phase basis )

3) Apply power factor at each load, if needed....

But since it's apparent you're just arguing for arguements then I'm done
with it now goodbye TROLL


You still didn't answer the problem with overvoltage on the RPC
motor.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Cross-Slide wrote:

Maybe YOU are talking about an RPC, but the subject of the
OP
is " VFD
question "

It doesn't matter, since the transformer goes before
anything
else.
It operates at line voltage, and in Gunner's case at a
constant
60 Hz.

It does matter, a set of transformers can most certainly come
after
a
RPC, if you only have buck transformers large enough to handle
the
three
phase current, not the single phase current.

Why would you put three after the RPC when one at the input
ddoes
it
right? Are you that stupid?

I'm not stupid, but you may be if you are that clueless as to the
context and the point I made about the transformer sizing. If you
have
for example three 1KVA transformers on hand but no 3KVA
transformers,
it's a pretty easy choice to use the three you have downstream
rather
than buy a new transformer to use upstream.

OK, if a hack job pleases you.

A "hack job" utilizing parts you already have on hand vs. spending
money
buying new parts will please most HSM folks. We are talking HSM here,
not in a factory where you would have real three phase power anyway.

Even within a factory environment it is perfectly sound engineering to
parallel transformers.


Three transformers on the individual phases isn't 'parallel'.

Oh I see....and the moon is made of cheese, too....

You can't fix stupid.

Certainly seems true in the case of YOUR stupidity.


Yawn...

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

On May 12, 4:52*pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Cross-Slide wrote:

Maybe YOU are talking about an RPC, but the subject of the OP is " VFD
question "

* *It doesn't matter, since the transformer goes before anything else.
It operates at line voltage, and in Gunner's case at a constant 60 Hz.

It does matter, a set of transformers can most certainly come after a
RPC, if you only have buck transformers large enough to handle the three
phase current, not the single phase current.

* *Why would you put three after the RPC when one at the input ddoes it
right? *Are you that stupid?

I'm not stupid, but you may be if you are that clueless as to the
context and the point I made about the transformer sizing. If you have
for example three 1KVA transformers on hand but no 3KVA transformers,
it's a pretty easy choice to use the three you have downstream rather
than buy a new transformer to use upstream.

* *OK, if a hack job pleases you.

A "hack job" utilizing parts you already have on hand vs. spending money
buying new parts will please most HSM folks. We are talking HSM here,
not in a factory where you would have real three phase power anyway.

* *The OP has a problem with a VFD with an overvoltage condition on it's
input. *Please explain how your hack job on the output will fix that.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

I don't see, in the original question where it is specified that the
OV error is coming from the VFD or from the mill. If the error
condition is in the VFD, then of course you have to fix the input
voltage. If it's on the mill, and you're only using the VFD to
generate 3-phase and not as a speed control, it would seem perfectly
reasonable to correct the voltage at the output, assuming you had
three smaller transformers as opposed to one large one.

Please explain why that wouldn't work. I'm not trying to play gotcha -
I really am interested in whether there is a reason not to do this.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Cross-Slide wrote:

Maybe YOU are talking about an RPC, but the subject of the
OP
is "
VFD
question "

It doesn't matter, since the transformer goes before
anything
else.
It operates at line voltage, and in Gunner's case at a
constant
60
Hz.

It does matter, a set of transformers can most certainly come
after
a
RPC, if you only have buck transformers large enough to handle
the
three
phase current, not the single phase current.


Why would you put three after the RPC when one at the input
ddoes
it
right? Are you that stupid?


Because in the case of an RPC, the entire downstream bus in all
probability
has excessive voltage imbalances when measured phase to phase and
even
even
a few percent of voltage imbalance has a very profoundly negative
effect
on
motor temtrature rise and energy losses to core heating....

Are YOU that stupid?


Sigh. Are you saying that you will adjust each transformer as you
change the load?


Sigh....

What I'm saying is to balance the RPC output voltage first and THEN
apply
power factor correction on an as-needed basis at each individual load.


And overvolt the RPC motor? Not very smart, is it?


You ****ing moron--do I have to spell out every last detail ?

--just a couple posts ago I told you about voltage imbalance and its
effect
on motor heating....which is a WAY more serious situation than is running
20% or so above ( or below nominal ) with BALANCED voltages.

1) Balance the converter, generally, capacitors are used.

2) Transform the output if needed ( notably, most 3ph transformers have
taps
which allow for a slight buck/ boost adjustment on a per-phase basis )

3) Apply power factor at each load, if needed....

But since it's apparent you're just arguing for arguements then I'm done
with it now goodbye TROLL


You still didn't answer the problem with overvoltage on the RPC
motor.



Did too--learn to read

Just one post ago--where I told you about voltage imbalance and it's effect
on motor heating and how that is a WAY more serious situation than running
at
20% or so above ( or below ) nominal nameplate with BALANCED voltages.

Also I said "goodbye troll"...

But apparently you have some serious reading comprehension problems and so
into the bozo bin you go.

plonk

--

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
The group doesn't need to know about you communication failures.

LOL
-------------

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

But since it's apparent you're just arguing for arguements then I'm done
with it now goodbye TROLL


Let him argue the point with the engineers at GE

http://www.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/Paralleling?TNR=White%20Papers|Paralleling|generic

Or at square D

http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib/...008926802f9112

Again?

Just can't keep a good troll down? Posts may be trolls but most people
aren't.

LOL

----------

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
news:qeydne5UCNIR51HQnZ2dnUVZ_vudnZ2d@scnresearch. com...
Also I said "goodbye troll"...

But apparently you have some serious reading comprehension problems and so
into the bozo bin you go.

plonk

--

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Cross-Slide wrote:

Maybe YOU are talking about an RPC, but the subject of the
OP
is "
VFD
question "

It doesn't matter, since the transformer goes before
anything
else.
It operates at line voltage, and in Gunner's case at a
constant
60
Hz.

It does matter, a set of transformers can most certainly come
after
a
RPC, if you only have buck transformers large enough to handle
the
three
phase current, not the single phase current.


Why would you put three after the RPC when one at the input
ddoes
it
right? Are you that stupid?


Because in the case of an RPC, the entire downstream bus in all
probability
has excessive voltage imbalances when measured phase to phase and
even
even
a few percent of voltage imbalance has a very profoundly negative
effect
on
motor temtrature rise and energy losses to core heating....

Are YOU that stupid?


Sigh. Are you saying that you will adjust each transformer as you
change the load?


Sigh....

What I'm saying is to balance the RPC output voltage first and THEN
apply
power factor correction on an as-needed basis at each individual load.


And overvolt the RPC motor? Not very smart, is it?


You ****ing moron--do I have to spell out every last detail ?

--just a couple posts ago I told you about voltage imbalance and its
effect
on motor heating....which is a WAY more serious situation than is running
20% or so above ( or below nominal ) with BALANCED voltages.

1) Balance the converter, generally, capacitors are used.

2) Transform the output if needed ( notably, most 3ph transformers have
taps
which allow for a slight buck/ boost adjustment on a per-phase basis )

3) Apply power factor at each load, if needed....

But since it's apparent you're just arguing for arguements then I'm done
with it now goodbye TROLL


You still didn't answer the problem with overvoltage on the RPC
motor.



Did too--learn to read

Just one post ago--where I told you about voltage imbalance and it's effect
on motor heating and how that is a WAY more serious situation than running
at
20% or so above ( or below ) nominal nameplate with BALANCED voltages.

Also I said "goodbye troll"...

But apparently you have some serious reading comprehension problems and so
into the bozo bin you go.

plonk


You need to get help with those anger issues, before you have a
stroke.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
The group doesn't need to know about you communication failures.

LOL
-------------

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

But since it's apparent you're just arguing for arguements then I'm done
with it now goodbye TROLL


Let him argue the point with the engineers at GE

http://www.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/Paralleling?TNR=White%20Papers|Paralleling|generic

Or at square D

http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib/...008926802f9112


Both of those support my position. Nice try. Did you even read
them? They have nothing to do with either VFD or RPC installations. At
the 2 MW rating in the articles, they are small substation grade
transformers. Not something you could use for a home shop.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Cross-Slide wrote:

Maybe YOU are talking about an RPC, but the subject of the OP is "
VFD
question "

It doesn't matter, since the transformer goes before anything else.
It operates at line voltage, and in Gunner's case at a constant 60 Hz.

It does matter, a set of transformers can most certainly come after a
RPC, if you only have buck transformers large enough to handle the three
phase current, not the single phase current.


Why would you put three after the RPC when one at the input ddoes it
right? Are you that stupid?


Because in the case of an RPC, the entire downstream bus in all probability
has excessive voltage imbalances when measured phase to phase and even even
a few percent of voltage imbalance has a very profoundly negative effect on
motor temtrature rise and energy losses to core heating....

Are YOU that stupid?

Sigh. Are you saying that you will adjust each transformer as you
change the load?

No, I'm saying you use what you have and if you have three small
transformers that will do the job after the RPC, you use those instead
of buying a new transformer.

So, you are going to use them on the output to protect the load, but
not the VFD or the RPC?

It's not about "protecting" it's about eliminating alarms and making the
machine run.


What good will they do on the output, if the three phase motor in
your RPC is saturating and smoking, or on fire?

No three phase motor is going to have an issue with 249V, that is within
acceptable limits.


You do know that if the three transformers are identical, they can be
run in parallel?

Well duh. Do you think that three transformers found in someone's odds
and ends pile are going to be identical?

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Cross-Slide wrote:

Maybe YOU are talking about an RPC, but the subject of the OP is " VFD
question "

It doesn't matter, since the transformer goes before anything else.
It operates at line voltage, and in Gunner's case at a constant 60 Hz.

It does matter, a set of transformers can most certainly come after a
RPC, if you only have buck transformers large enough to handle the three
phase current, not the single phase current.

Why would you put three after the RPC when one at the input ddoes it
right? Are you that stupid?

I'm not stupid, but you may be if you are that clueless as to the
context and the point I made about the transformer sizing. If you have
for example three 1KVA transformers on hand but no 3KVA transformers,
it's a pretty easy choice to use the three you have downstream rather
than buy a new transformer to use upstream.

OK, if a hack job pleases you.

A "hack job" utilizing parts you already have on hand vs. spending money
buying new parts will please most HSM folks. We are talking HSM here,
not in a factory where you would have real three phase power anyway.

The OP has a problem with a VFD with an overvoltage condition on it's
input. Please explain how your hack job on the output will fix that.

We're talking about an RPC, not a VFD. As for overvoltage, 249V on
single phase 120/240V service is not an overvoltage condition per
utility standards.

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Cross-Slide wrote:

Maybe YOU are talking about an RPC, but the subject of the OP is "
VFD
question "

It doesn't matter, since the transformer goes before anything else.
It operates at line voltage, and in Gunner's case at a constant 60 Hz.

It does matter, a set of transformers can most certainly come after a
RPC, if you only have buck transformers large enough to handle the three
phase current, not the single phase current.


Why would you put three after the RPC when one at the input ddoes it
right? Are you that stupid?


Because in the case of an RPC, the entire downstream bus in all probability
has excessive voltage imbalances when measured phase to phase and even even
a few percent of voltage imbalance has a very profoundly negative effect on
motor temtrature rise and energy losses to core heating....

Are YOU that stupid?

Sigh. Are you saying that you will adjust each transformer as you
change the load?

No, I'm saying you use what you have and if you have three small
transformers that will do the job after the RPC, you use those instead
of buying a new transformer.

So, you are going to use them on the output to protect the load, but
not the VFD or the RPC?

It's not about "protecting" it's about eliminating alarms and making the
machine run.


Which can't be done with transformers on the output. Just like you
can't fix a low line voltage with transformers on the output. I
recently repaired a pipe bending machine that was reporting low line
voltage. It had two problems: The idiot electrician used a single pole
breaker and fed 120 VAC to the machine. With the proper breaker and
connecting his red wire to the other pole instead of the neutral gave me
208 volts, but the machine was sluggish. A boost transformer took it to
244 volts, and it perfomed like it was supposed to.


What good will they do on the output, if the three phase motor in
your RPC is saturating and smoking, or on fire?

No three phase motor is going to have an issue with 249V, that is within
acceptable limits.


Then there is no need for transformers to drive the machine's motor,
is there?


You do know that if the three transformers are identical, they can be
run in parallel?

Well duh. Do you think that three transformers found in someone's odds
and ends pile are going to be identical?


Duh, yourself. It depends on who's shop you find them. I had three
identical 208 primary 6 v 400A secondary transformers for years. They
came from a set of four, mounted on a steel plate and connected to give
1600A at 6 volts. I have had up to 35 identical transformers from
mainframe computers. We scrapped tractor trailer loads of mainframes
that ran on 208 three phase 60 Hz and had tons of good used transformers
until the local surplus places ran out and bought 2000 to 3000 pounds
from us. I sold most of them by the pound.

Even if the transformers aren't exactly the same, matching turns
ratios can be run in parallel without problems.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Cross-Slide wrote:

Maybe YOU are talking about an RPC, but the subject of the OP is " VFD
question "

It doesn't matter, since the transformer goes before anything else.
It operates at line voltage, and in Gunner's case at a constant 60 Hz.

It does matter, a set of transformers can most certainly come after a
RPC, if you only have buck transformers large enough to handle the three
phase current, not the single phase current.

Why would you put three after the RPC when one at the input ddoes it
right? Are you that stupid?

I'm not stupid, but you may be if you are that clueless as to the
context and the point I made about the transformer sizing. If you have
for example three 1KVA transformers on hand but no 3KVA transformers,
it's a pretty easy choice to use the three you have downstream rather
than buy a new transformer to use upstream.

OK, if a hack job pleases you.

A "hack job" utilizing parts you already have on hand vs. spending money
buying new parts will please most HSM folks. We are talking HSM here,
not in a factory where you would have real three phase power anyway.

The OP has a problem with a VFD with an overvoltage condition on it's
input. Please explain how your hack job on the output will fix that.

We're talking about an RPC, not a VFD. As for overvoltage, 249V on
single phase 120/240V service is not an overvoltage condition per
utility standards.


A common RPC uses a 208 Volt three phase motor, not a 240 volt single
phase.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

On Mon, 09 May 2011 06:40:28 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 09 May 2011 00:06:29 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 09 May 2011 01:19:57 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

Ive got a 5hp PC3 vfd running my Gorton MasterMill.
The top end voltage it is supposed to run on..is 230vts + about 5 volts
It will run down to 200 volts.
Im running it on single phase, been doing it for years.

Now the power company has increased my 220 single phase to about 249
volts and when I try to start it..I keep getting OverVoltage Alarm.

I cant get the power company to change the tap down to a normal voltage,
let alone 220 volts

How do I (cheaply) transform high voltage down 14-29 volts ac?

Id hate to loose the VFD on this mill and have to run it off a RPC
(which also puts out higher voltages)


How much current do you need? A simple buck transformer will do the
job, as long as it's secondary can handle the current.

I believe its 5.7kva

Gunner

Ok...Im going to look REALLY stupid here. Sigh..blame it on the stroke.
Or not..shrug

Ive got a BUNCH of 120/240 transformers..all marked 120/240 12/24

So if I wire one up to 240..does it mean that it will REDUCE the voltage
-24 volts?

Or is the output 24 volts?

I see I havent gotten everything back from the stroke....sigh

If you do a search on "buck boost wiring" you will find references for
how to wire one of your transformers to "buck" your 249V down to 225V.
Basically, the 24V secondary goes in series with the feed to your RPC,
and the primary just connects to the line. The secondary amp rating at
24V has to be enough to handle the load of your RPC/machine.

http://www.jhlarson.com/ind_tables/G...uckboost01.htm

If your transformers are large enough to handle the single phase load
see single phase diagram A and you'll need only one transformer.

http://www.jhlarson.com/ind_tables/G...uckboost03.htm

If the transformers are only large enough for the three phase load
you'll need to use three of them after the RPC. See diagram F, which is
really the same as the single phase setup in triplicate.

Do plenty of voltage checks before trying to run anything to ensure you
have it wired correctly to "buck" to 225V rather than "boost" to 273V.

While I was clearing out one of the storage sheds..I found a 30 amp,
230-208 transformer last night. Id lined up the biggest of 4 single
phase transformers (8kva) for installation today..and then I found this
one!! Yay!!! I gave it a quick shot of Rustolem last night after
wiring SO cable to it..so when its dry..Ill install it and see if it
does what its supposed to do. Its 3ph..but it should work nicely when
only using 2 of the 3 windings. VBG

Yay!!!

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch