Way back when, (60's ?), there was movement to 'tune' your AC appliances
with some type of resonant circuit so they would be 'invisible' to the
electric company's power meter.
Is this actually a movement in the 'green' direction or simply a way of
paying less for the power you are actually using...
Haven't heard much about this over the past decade or two...
Is it time for this concept to make the rounds again?
Chet

Chet wrote:
Way back when, (60's ?), there was movement to 'tune' your AC appliances
with some type of resonant circuit so they would be 'invisible' to the
electric company's power meter.
Is this actually a movement in the 'green' direction or simply a way of
paying less for the power you are actually using...
Haven't heard much about this over the past decade or two...
Is it time for this concept to make the rounds again?
Chet

AFAIK, the older electrodynamic home power meters (the kind with the
visible rotating disk) measured only "real" power.

But, correcting the power factor of things like electric motors in
appliances by adding capacitors across them would slightly reduce the
miniscule amount of power lost in heating the wiring feeding current to
those motors inside your house, as well as doing the power company a
small favor by reducing the same type of resistive losses in their wires.

I've heard that in the Southwestern USA where there's a lot of power
used running the motors on compressors in home AC units that the
electric companies are using meters which will measure reactive power so
they can charge you for it the same way they've done for years at nearly
all industrial users.

A few years ago I read an article about adding a "run capacitor" in
series with the start winding on standard fractional HP electric motors
to make them into "capacitor run" motors and save a bit of electricity
that way. AFAIR the article was written by some guys in a Navy research
facility.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.

jeff_wisnia wrote:
Chet wrote:

Way back when, (60's ?), there was movement to 'tune' your AC
appliances with some type of resonant circuit so they would be
'invisible' to the electric company's power meter.
Is this actually a movement in the 'green' direction or simply a way
of paying less for the power you are actually using...
Haven't heard much about this over the past decade or two...
Is it time for this concept to make the rounds again?
Chet

snipped

A few years ago I read an article about adding a "run capacitor" in
series with the start winding on standard fractional HP electric motors
to make them into "capacitor run" motors and save a bit of electricity
that way. AFAIR the article was written by some guys in a Navy research
facility.

Jeff



I just found that article about adding a "run capacitor", it's the third
letter on this page written to electronics guru Bob Pease:

http://www.electronicspoint.com/addi...s-t174283.html

And here's some of his comments regarding the return on investment that
capacitor might give:

http://electronicdesign.com/article/...rt-2-3736.aspx

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 14:14:39 -0400, jeff_wisnia
wrote:

jeff_wisnia wrote:
Chet wrote:

Way back when, (60's ?), there was movement to 'tune' your AC
appliances with some type of resonant circuit so they would be
'invisible' to the electric company's power meter.
Is this actually a movement in the 'green' direction or simply a way
of paying less for the power you are actually using...
Haven't heard much about this over the past decade or two...
Is it time for this concept to make the rounds again?
Chet

snipped

A few years ago I read an article about adding a "run capacitor" in
series with the start winding on standard fractional HP electric motors
to make them into "capacitor run" motors and save a bit of electricity
that way. AFAIR the article was written by some guys in a Navy research
facility.

Jeff



I just found that article about adding a "run capacitor", it's the third
letter on this page written to electronics guru Bob Pease:

http://www.electronicspoint.com/addi...s-t174283.html

And here's some of his comments regarding the return on investment that
capacitor might give:

http://electronicdesign.com/article/...rt-2-3736.aspx


Interesting indeed.

Here in the desert..we run swamp coolers 24/7 at least 5 months..often
times 6 months of the year.

Mine is a MasterCool brand, that normally takes a 3/4hp motor. These
motors (AW Smith typically) go bad every year, or every other year.

Ive got a 1hp motor, different type, GE, that I snagged a week or so
ago, as my motor..as usual..has gone bad. Its a Capaciter start, as
opposed to the standard AW Smith start winding motors.

Several questions:

Im running 110vt

Would it be cheaper to convert and run it at 220vt?

What would the difference be between that 3/4hp and 1hp motor in cost of
operation?

We (the area) are victims of the Gray Davis/Pacific Gas and Electric
rip off 10 yrs ago..and are still paying electricity at 2-3x the normal
rate in areas outside of our own.

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/rateinfo.shtml
http://www.greenerbakersfield.com/tag/pge-bakersfield/

I also need a new cooler pump..and before I buy one..110vt OR 220
volt..it would be nice to have some idea of the cost benefits/negatives
of running at different voltages

Thanks guys.

Gunner

--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 14:14:39 -0400, jeff_wisnia
wrote:

jeff_wisnia wrote:
Chet wrote:

Way back when, (60's ?), there was movement to 'tune' your AC
appliances with some type of resonant circuit so they would be
'invisible' to the electric company's power meter.
Is this actually a movement in the 'green' direction or simply a way
of paying less for the power you are actually using...
Haven't heard much about this over the past decade or two...
Is it time for this concept to make the rounds again?
Chet

snipped

A few years ago I read an article about adding a "run capacitor" in
series with the start winding on standard fractional HP electric motors
to make them into "capacitor run" motors and save a bit of electricity
that way. AFAIR the article was written by some guys in a Navy research
facility.

Jeff



I just found that article about adding a "run capacitor", it's the third
letter on this page written to electronics guru Bob Pease:

http://www.electronicspoint.com/addi...s-t174283.html

And here's some of his comments regarding the return on investment that
capacitor might give:

http://electronicdesign.com/article/...rt-2-3736.aspx


Interesting indeed.

Here in the desert..we run swamp coolers 24/7 at least 5 months..often
times 6 months of the year.

Mine is a MasterCool brand, that normally takes a 3/4hp motor. These
motors (AW Smith typically) go bad every year, or every other year.

Ive got a 1hp motor, different type, GE, that I snagged a week or so
ago, as my motor..as usual..has gone bad. Its a Capaciter start, as
opposed to the standard AW Smith start winding motors.

Several questions:

Im running 110vt

Would it be cheaper to convert and run it at 220vt?

What would the difference be between that 3/4hp and 1hp motor in cost of
operation?

We (the area) are victims of the Gray Davis/Pacific Gas and Electric
rip off 10 yrs ago..and are still paying electricity at 2-3x the normal
rate in areas outside of our own.

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/rateinfo.shtml
http://www.greenerbakersfield.com/tag/pge-bakersfield/

I also need a new cooler pump..and before I buy one..110vt OR 220
volt..it would be nice to have some idea of the cost benefits/negatives
of running at different voltages

Thanks guys.

Gunner

The only savings in running a 220 volt motor would be in a slightly
decreased loss in the lines due to the decreased current.

I have a copy of the article discussed here, original from Tipler
courtesy of Bob Pease

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 12:03:36 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

What would the difference be between that 3/4hp and 1hp motor in cost of
operation?

G.- assuming the RPM is the same, there isn't going to be much
difference in running cost between a motor capable of 0.75HP and one
capable of 1HP. The 1HP might be less costly to run, in fact. You
could compare with one of those kill-a-watt gadgets that often go on
sale for $15 or so.

On 04/18/2011 07:54 AM, Chet wrote:
Way back when, (60's ?), there was movement to 'tune' your AC appliances
with some type of resonant circuit so they would be 'invisible' to the
electric company's power meter.
Is this actually a movement in the 'green' direction or simply a way of
paying less for the power you are actually using...
Haven't heard much about this over the past decade or two...
It is a "free energy" fantasy. There are ways to cheat the power
meters, mostly by installing enormous (electro)magnets inside the wall
that interfere with the magnetics in the meter. But, making appliances
work properly while not reading any power at the meter is impossible
with any legal scheme. There ARE devices that reduce effective voltage
to the motor when not needed, and reduce the power consumed. They can,
MAYBE, reduce consumption by 20% on some motor-driven appliances like
refrigerators, but probably it is more like 10% or less.

Jon

On 04/18/2011 11:22 AM, jeff_wisnia wrote:


But, correcting the power factor of things like electric motors in
appliances by adding capacitors across them would slightly reduce the
miniscule amount of power lost in heating the wiring feeding current to
those motors inside your house, as well as doing the power company a
small favor by reducing the same type of resistive losses in their wires.

Typical induction motors are overexcited to make sure they don't stall
under somewhat greater than full load. This leads to a lot of energy
loss in the rotor and stator of the motor when not at full load. There
were a lot of gadgets out about 20 years ago (more like the 80's rather
than the 60's) using a custom chip and a triac to reduce this excitation
and allow the motors to run on less real power.
I haven't heard a lot obout these recently.

Jon

In article , Chet
writes
Way back when, (60's ?), there was movement to 'tune' your AC appliances
with some type of resonant circuit so they would be 'invisible' to the
electric company's power meter.
Is this actually a movement in the 'green' direction or simply a way of
paying less for the power you are actually using...
Haven't heard much about this over the past decade or two...
Is it time for this concept to make the rounds again?
Chet

If I remember correctly, there were devices which were supposed to work
as follows;
When a motor is delivering maximum power it has a mainly resistive
impedance; e.g. when starting.
When a motor is delivering less than its maximum power it has a larger
reactive component so that the power factor is less; the current and
voltage or not in phase so the 'apparent power' is more than the 'real
power'.
The device used acted a bit like a lamp dimmer so that it reduced the
voltage when the motor needed to deliver less than maximum power. The
result was that the motor was working as hard as it could at the reduced
voltage and so acted as a mainly resistive load with a good power
factor.
--
Chris Holford

Chris Holford fired this volley in
:

The device used acted a bit like a lamp dimmer so that it reduced the
voltage when the motor needed to deliver less than maximum power. The
result was that the motor was working as hard as it could at the
reduced
voltage and so acted as a mainly resistive load with a good power
factor.
--

Actually, it affected the relative phases of current and voltage..

There is a commercial power factor controller that may not work, but it's
popular -- called "the Green Plug".

A lot of this was de-bunked when it turned out that manufacturers were
NOT oversizing their motors to load. And it gets worse... now all the
Chicom appliances we're getting have motors UNDERSIZED for their loads.
G

LLoyd

On Apr 18, 3:58*pm, snowbertca wrote:
I have a copy of the article discussed here, original from Tipler
courtesy of Bob Pease

The article does not discuss cheating the meter or free energy, mainly
reducing the current by making the motor a 2 phase unit with a run cap
in series with the start winding.
I can scan it and make it available somehow if anyone would like a
copy.

On Apr 18, 1:03*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
snippage
Here in the desert..we run swamp coolers 24/7 at least 5 months..often
times 6 months of the year.

Mine is a MasterCool brand, that normally takes a 3/4hp motor. *These
motors (AW Smith typically) go bad every year, or every other year.

Ive got a 1hp motor, different type, GE, that I snagged a week or so
ago, as my motor..as usual..has gone bad. *Its a Capaciter start, as
opposed to the standard AW Smith start winding motors.

Several questions:

Im running 110vt

Would it be cheaper to convert and run it at 220vt?

What would the difference be between that 3/4hp and 1hp motor in cost of
operation?

We (the area) *are victims of the Gray Davis/Pacific Gas and Electric
rip off 10 yrs ago..and are still paying electricity at 2-3x the normal
rate in areas outside of our own.

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/rateinfo....e-bakersfield/

I also need a new cooler pump..and before I buy one..110vt OR 220
volt..it would be nice to have some idea of the cost benefits/negatives
of running at *different voltages

Thanks guys.

Gunner

--


You reduce the I squared R losses in the wiring and connectors by
going to 220 from 120. Will probably be negligable at the motor sizes
you're talking about. Really comes in to play at high currents and/or
long supply runs.

No real pluses or minuses other than the cost of conversion. You'll
have to change the breaker to supply 220 and there may be a price
difference between a 120 and 220 motor of the same power output
rating, 120 being more popular for the fractional horsepower market.

How do these motors fail? Lack of lube or bad bearings? Shorted
windings? Bad starter switches or caps? Are they selling you low-
duty cycle motors when you need one with a continuous rating?

Stan

On 04/18/2011 09:38 PM, snowbertca wrote:
On Apr 18, 3:58 pm, wrote:
I have a copy of the article discussed here, original from Tipler
courtesy of Bob Pease

The article does not discuss cheating the meter or free energy, mainly
reducing the current by making the motor a 2 phase unit with a run cap
in series with the start winding.
I can scan it and make it available somehow if anyone would like a
copy.

Most induction-run motors without any capacitors depend on high
resistance in the start winding to develop the necessary phase shift
between the start and run windings to make the motor spin.

Those motors are bad candidates for conversion to a cap start/cap run
motor, as the start winding will overheat. The only motors that could
be so converted would be cap start motors, where addition of a run
capacitor would reduce line current and make the motor run a little
smoother.

Jon

On 04/20/2011 03:43 PM, Josepi wrote:


As a certified meterologist for 34 years I do not understand how this
could possible lower a bill on a residential meter. On a commercial
meter where VoltAmpere demand is measured... yes, but on a straight
watthour meter... no.

The THEORY is that the excessive excitation of stator and rotor produces
excess heat. This is true, but it is not a great effect in many motors.
I think the REAL scheme going on here is that this reduces AMPERAGE,
and that is what they demonstrate, not that it reduces WATTAGE. And,
so, that is a scam.

Jon

On Apr 20, 1:33*pm, wrote:
On Apr 18, 1:03*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
snippage



Here in the desert..we run swamp coolers 24/7 at least 5 months..often
times 6 months of the year.

Mine is a MasterCool brand, that normally takes a 3/4hp motor. *These
motors (AW Smith typically) go bad every year, or every other year.
.

How do these motors fail? *Lack of lube or bad bearings? *Shorted
windings? *Bad starter switches or caps? *Are they selling you low-
duty cycle motors when you need one with a continuous rating?




I second this question. It seems to me you must have an inappropriate
spec on your motor or something. Your blower has an optimal speed for
best efficiency and will require a given amount of power to move a
given amount of air. It might be the case where you have the wrong
pulley set up on the unit and have to over tighten the fan belt to
keep it from slipping and that is taking out the bearings in the
motor.

I think you should be able to get 10 to 20 years or more out of a
motor doing nothing more than lubricating and replacing bearings.
Heck you could probably get a motor that had oil cups and drip cans
feeding babbit bearings and get virtually zero wear on the bearings.

Roger Shoaf

On 04/21/2011 11:28 PM, RS at work wrote:
On Apr 20, 1:33 pm, wrote:
On Apr 18, 1:03 pm, Gunner wrote:
snippage



Here in the desert..we run swamp coolers 24/7 at least 5 months..often
times 6 months of the year.

Mine is a MasterCool brand, that normally takes a 3/4hp motor. These
motors (AW Smith typically) go bad every year, or every other year.
.

How do these motors fail? Lack of lube or bad bearings? Shorted
windings? Bad starter switches or caps? Are they selling you low-
duty cycle motors when you need one with a continuous rating?




I second this question. It seems to me you must have an inappropriate
spec on your motor or something. Your blower has an optimal speed for
best efficiency and will require a given amount of power to move a
given amount of air. It might be the case where you have the wrong
pulley set up on the unit and have to over tighten the fan belt to
keep it from slipping and that is taking out the bearings in the
motor.

I think you should be able to get 10 to 20 years or more out of a
motor doing nothing more than lubricating and replacing bearings.
Heck you could probably get a motor that had oil cups and drip cans
feeding babbit bearings and get virtually zero wear on the bearings.

Roger Shoaf

These are dry-duty motors used in a wet-duty application.

In West Texas about 40 years ago, the swamp cooler or "mud sucker" was
very popular, but the pumps lasted 4-6 months and the motors about 1
year. So much scale you have never seen.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:33:45 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


How do these motors fail? Lack of lube or bad bearings? Shorted
windings? Bad starter switches or caps? Are they selling you low-
duty cycle motors when you need one with a continuous rating?

Stan

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=cooler+motors&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=9521713811872165987&sa=X&ei=zpuyTevnJ-HmiAL7sqGwBg&ved=0CG8Q8wIwAw#

Typically the start windings go out, or the centrifigal switch arcs
closed or they simply wear out under the very high moisture levels they
live in. Split Phase motors are the most common these days..and they
simply dont last as long as they used to. I pulled one apart last
weekend..no bearings. Just a very very thin bushing..and in that
motor..it was worn out totally.

http://www.emotorpro.com/evaporative-cooler-motors.aspx

http://www.emotorpro.com/3-4-1-3-hp-...sv2074bv1.aspx

I brought home a cap start 1hp GE that Ill stick in this weekend.
IRRC..its a 2 speed as well, which is really what needs to go in a swamp
cooler.

Gunner


--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)

On Apr 23, 2:38*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:33:45 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

How do these motors fail? *Lack of lube or bad bearings? *Shorted
windings? *Bad starter switches or caps? *Are they selling you low-
duty cycle motors when you need one with a continuous rating?

Stan

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=cooler+motors&oe=utf-8&rls=o...

Typically the start windings go out, or the centrifigal switch arcs
closed or they simply wear out under the very high moisture levels they
live in. Split Phase motors are the most common these days..and they
simply dont last as long as they used to. I pulled one apart last
weekend..no bearings. Just a very very thin bushing..and in that
motor..it was worn out totally.

http://www.emotorpro.com/evaporative-cooler-motors.aspx

http://www.emotorpro.com/3-4-1-3-hp-...rpm-a-o-smith-...

I brought home a cap start 1hp GE that Ill stick in this weekend.
IRRC..its a 2 speed as well, which is really what needs to go in a swamp
cooler.


If I had to pony up a hundred bucks every year or two to replace an
electric motor running a fan I think I would find a solution to the
problem.

If the atmosphere inside your swamp cooler is killing off the motors
then perhaps relocating the motor or using a motor of different design
would be better.

I think if this were my swamp cooler I would be talking to a guy at a
motor shop for some advice.

Roger Shoaf