PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2010-11-21, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-21, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ralph wrote:

[ ... ]

What good are security screws when anyone can go to HF and get tools for
$5.88 to remove them?


Not all security tools are available to the public. Some I used over
20 years ago still aren't sold without a lot of paperwork. The more
common types are more safety related, to keep general idiots out of
things.



Do you have an example?



A hollow oval head used for CATV equipment. Hamlin used them on
their descramblers. You could get them out with a pair of dykes, but
nor without destroying the screw and damaging the case. Either cost the
customer their account, and they could never get cable service with our
company, anywhere in the US. A list of violators was kept, along with
their personal information for future reference.


A five sided version of an Allen head, with a center pin and used for
wall plates for addressable taps. For that one you had to buy the taps,
controller, wall plates, screws and tools at one time.

That one does not sound that difficult for one of us to make.
(Hmm ... what would be nice would be some 1/4" hex drill rod stock
instead of round to start from. :-)

The oval head really would be easier with a CNC surface grinder
and an extra axis on an index head or rotary table.


That's why we replaced one security screw with a brown pop rivet.


--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist! I m just a very ticked
off scientist!!!

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

On 2010-11-21, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-21, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
The oval head really would be easier with a CNC surface grinder
and an extra axis on an index head or rotary table.


Or a file.

i

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

Don Foreman writes:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, Erik wrote:


--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.


I think most sets I've in the last couple of decades have had posidrive
bits. I don't know that I've seen a posidrive screw.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Don Foreman writes:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, Erik wrote:


--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.


I think most sets I've in the last couple of decades have had posidrive
bits. I don't know that I've seen a posidrive screw.


HP/Agilent test equipment is full of them.

--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

I think most sets I've in the last couple of decades have had posidrive
bits. I don't know that I've seen a posidrive screw.



I bet you've actually seen bunches of PoziDrive screws... they're easy
to mistake for Phillips if you don't know what to look for. They have
four marker 'dashes' radiating out from the inside corners of the
recess... and do work with Phillips drivers, but not all that well.

Check he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidrive#Pozidrive

There is a drawing of the head on the left. Also, click to enlarge the
photo of the gold plated screws on the right, and look close... see the
marker dashes?

They're all over the place now... used with PoziDriv drivers, they rock.

The driver bits also look similar to Phillips, and are sized the same,
#0, #1, #2, #3... Close inspection reveals four raised linear marker
ridges down in the inside corners of the flutes.

Heres more photos... sorry about the long URL. (Or just search on
'pozidriv' in Google Image.)

http://www.google.com/images?q=pozid...i&cr=&safe= o
ff&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1607&bih=876

Erik

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:12:14 -0600, Ignoramus3297
wrote:

On 2010-11-21, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ralph wrote:

On 11/20/2010 6:17 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-20, Michael A. wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, wrote:


--Winston-- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.


That set has been on sale for $5.88 several times this year.



It is a good set.


I have a couple of them.

What good are security screws when anyone can go to HF and get tools for
$5.88 to remove them?


Not all security tools are available to the public. Some I used over
20 years ago still aren't sold without a lot of paperwork. The more
common types are more safety related, to keep general idiots out of
things.



Do you have an example?

The bottom of my GE tea kettle. It quit working a few days ago and
there are 3 screws holding on the base which would expose the
thermostat and switch. One is spanner-style (an interrupted flat),
two are regular phillips.

Some headlight adjusting screws, etc.


--
Education is when you read the fine print.
Experience is what you get if you don't.
-- Pete Seeger

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

Erik writes:

I think most sets I've in the last couple of decades have had posidrive
bits. I don't know that I've seen a posidrive screw.



I bet you've actually seen bunches of PoziDrive screws... they're easy
to mistake for Phillips if you don't know what to look for. They have
four marker 'dashes' radiating out from the inside corners of the
recess... and do work with Phillips drivers, but not all that well.

Check he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidrive#Pozidrive

There is a drawing of the head on the left. Also, click to enlarge the
photo of the gold plated screws on the right, and look close... see the
marker dashes?

Of course, it's impossible to be "sure" you haven't seen something (as
opposed to "I remember seeing"...). But, like I said, I don't recall
ever having seen a screw head like the ones in that photo. Next time
I'm in Lowes I'll see if I can find any for sale...

They're all over the place now... used with PoziDriv drivers, they rock.

The driver bits also look similar to Phillips, and are sized the same,
#0, #1, #2, #3... Close inspection reveals four raised linear marker
ridges down in the inside corners of the flutes.

The drive bits I've seen dozens of (and after mistaking them for Philips
once, I learned that lesson!).

Heres more photos... sorry about the long URL. (Or just search on
'pozidriv' in Google Image.)

http://www.google.com/images?q=pozid...i&cr=&safe= o
ff&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1607&bih=876

Erik

--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Erik writes:

I think most sets I've in the last couple of decades have had posidrive
bits. I don't know that I've seen a posidrive screw.



I bet you've actually seen bunches of PoziDrive screws... they're easy
to mistake for Phillips if you don't know what to look for. They have
four marker 'dashes' radiating out from the inside corners of the
recess... and do work with Phillips drivers, but not all that well.

Check he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidrive#Pozidrive

There is a drawing of the head on the left. Also, click to enlarge the
photo of the gold plated screws on the right, and look close... see the
marker dashes?

Of course, it's impossible to be "sure" you haven't seen something (as
opposed to "I remember seeing"...). But, like I said, I don't recall
ever having seen a screw head like the ones in that photo. Next time
I'm in Lowes I'll see if I can find any for sale...


Lowe's? If they have it, it will be in those overpriced trays were
they sell you one screw at a time.

Fastenal, or other industrial suppliers would be a better place to
look.


--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

I think most sets I've in the last couple of decades have had posidrive
bits. I don't know that I've seen a posidrive screw.

HP/Agilent test equipment is full of them.

I once saw the inside of the first Compaq "transportable" computer. It was
loaded with 5-lobed Torx.

Cheers!
Rich

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

"Michael A. Terrell" writes:

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Erik writes:

I think most sets I've in the last couple of decades have had posidrive
bits. I don't know that I've seen a posidrive screw.



I bet you've actually seen bunches of PoziDrive screws... they're easy
to mistake for Phillips if you don't know what to look for. They have
four marker 'dashes' radiating out from the inside corners of the
recess... and do work with Phillips drivers, but not all that well.

Check he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidrive#Pozidrive

There is a drawing of the head on the left. Also, click to enlarge the
photo of the gold plated screws on the right, and look close... see the
marker dashes?

Of course, it's impossible to be "sure" you haven't seen something (as
opposed to "I remember seeing"...). But, like I said, I don't recall
ever having seen a screw head like the ones in that photo. Next time
I'm in Lowes I'll see if I can find any for sale...


Lowe's? If they have it, it will be in those overpriced trays were
they sell you one screw at a time.

Fastenal, or other industrial suppliers would be a better place to
look.

Well, sure. I'm not making a claim that they don't exist at all; I'm
saying that in actual practice they seem rare enough that I can't
remember ever seeing one. And I wouldn't expect to see them in the
common brick&mortar retail parts sources, either. Neither implies in
any way that I think they'd be impossible to find if I really wanted to
for some reason.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" writes:

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Erik writes:

I think most sets I've in the last couple of decades have had posidrive
bits. I don't know that I've seen a posidrive screw.



I bet you've actually seen bunches of PoziDrive screws... they're easy
to mistake for Phillips if you don't know what to look for. They have
four marker 'dashes' radiating out from the inside corners of the
recess... and do work with Phillips drivers, but not all that well.

Check he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidrive#Pozidrive

There is a drawing of the head on the left. Also, click to enlarge the
photo of the gold plated screws on the right, and look close... see the
marker dashes?

Of course, it's impossible to be "sure" you haven't seen something (as
opposed to "I remember seeing"...). But, like I said, I don't recall
ever having seen a screw head like the ones in that photo. Next time
I'm in Lowes I'll see if I can find any for sale...


Lowe's? If they have it, it will be in those overpriced trays were
they sell you one screw at a time.

Fastenal, or other industrial suppliers would be a better place to
look.

Well, sure. I'm not making a claim that they don't exist at all; I'm
saying that in actual practice they seem rare enough that I can't
remember ever seeing one. And I wouldn't expect to see them in the
common brick&mortar retail parts sources, either. Neither implies in
any way that I think they'd be impossible to find if I really wanted to
for some reason.


Like I said in another post: HP used a lot of them in their test
equipment. I have a lot of them from junked hospital equipment, and
from a couple parts cabinets that fell off workbenches at my last
employer. They decided it wasn't worth the time to sort them out and
put into a new cabinet. They gave me about 10 pounds of floor sweepings
from under the bulk hardware area, as well.


--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 22:55:49 -0600, Ignoramus3297
wrote:

On 2010-11-21, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-21, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
The oval head really would be easier with a CNC surface grinder
and an extra axis on an index head or rotary table.


Or a file.

i

Bravo, Ig!

Hex head vs hex socket head
 

On Nov 19, 3:35*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:09:20 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck





wrote:
On Nov 18, 7:20*pm, Winston wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:

(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. *Phillips are a different story however.

:)

--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.

It was (and I suppose still is) standard procedure to use a hammer/
impact driver on those screws. Virtually impossible to cam out when
you've hit it with a BFH.

*Virtually?
I have "hogged out" phillips and posidrive screws with a hammer impact
driver. Does that count? The head ended up with a nice conical
depression in the center. Worked good as a center drill to start /
center the drill to drill the head off

Well, I put the "virtually" in as protection against someone coming in
and calling me a liar since they, personally, had cammed out
thousands, if not millions, of phillips head screws using a hammer
impact driver.

Having used this type of driver on more scres than I care to count, I
can say that it never cammed out on me. But, Like you said, you could
tear the head to pieces. Of course, if the screw was decent quality to
begin with, having a shcs in its place wouldn't have done much good.
You'd have snapped off, or twisted the wrench, or rounded out the
socket.

The real problem here is steel screws in aluminum castings, which is a
great market for helicoils. A quick fix, btw, for stripped 6mm bolts
in aluminum in low-torque applications, is to just replace them with
1/4-20. They just screw right in. Did this on a LOT of Honda CB-450
valve covers.

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:43:58 -0700
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

snip -Posi-Drive screw discussion
Well, sure. I'm not making a claim that they don't exist at all; I'm
saying that in actual practice they seem rare enough that I can't
remember ever seeing one. And I wouldn't expect to see them in the
common brick&mortar retail parts sources, either. Neither implies in
any way that I think they'd be impossible to find if I really wanted to
for some reason.

GE used a lot of them in their commercial two-way radios during the
late 70's and probably into the 80's. That was my first run-in with
them. Had to buy a couple special screwdrivers for them (still have
them too ;). You could get away with a regular phillips most of the
time, but when you came across one that was really tight... It looked a
bit tacky too, messing up the heads on screws when you were suppose to
be a certified repair facility.

Watch for some old GE Master II type radios (GE called a lot of radios
"Master" something) and then take a good look at the screws used.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Hex head vs hex socket head
 

Hex head vs hex socket head
 

rangerssuck wrote:
On Nov 19, 3:35 pm, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:09:20 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck





wrote:

On Nov 18, 7:20 pm, Winston wrote:

rangerssuck wrote:

(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. Phillips are a different story however.

:)

--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.

It was (and I suppose still is) standard procedure to use a hammer/
impact driver on those screws. Virtually impossible to cam out when
you've hit it with a BFH.

Virtually?
I have "hogged out" phillips and posidrive screws with a hammer impact
driver. Does that count? The head ended up with a nice conical
depression in the center. Worked good as a center drill to start /
center the drill to drill the head off


Well, I put the "virtually" in as protection against someone coming in
and calling me a liar since they, personally, had cammed out
thousands, if not millions, of phillips head screws using a hammer
impact driver.

Having used this type of driver on more scres than I care to count, I
can say that it never cammed out on me. But, Like you said, you could
tear the head to pieces. Of course, if the screw was decent quality to
begin with, having a shcs in its place wouldn't have done much good.
You'd have snapped off, or twisted the wrench, or rounded out the
socket.

The real problem here is steel screws in aluminum castings, which is a
great market for helicoils. A quick fix, btw, for stripped 6mm bolts
in aluminum in low-torque applications, is to just replace them with
1/4-20. They just screw right in. Did this on a LOT of Honda CB-450
valve covers.

I seem to recall this discussion over the differences between phillips
and posidrive has come up before and it was mentioned that the phillips
screw was designed to cam out as at the time of their introduction for
aircraft use torque limiting drivers were not available or at least not
common. In the case of posidrive, which was introduced later, it was
intended to not cam out easily and even allow slight off axis drive.

PoziDrive Screws: Was Hex head vs hex socket head
 

Leon Fisk wrote:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:43:58 -0700
Joe wrote:

snip -Posi-Drive screw discussion
Well, sure. I'm not making a claim that they don't exist at all; I'm
saying that in actual practice they seem rare enough that I can't
remember ever seeing one. And I wouldn't expect to see them in the
common brick&mortar retail parts sources, either. Neither implies in
any way that I think they'd be impossible to find if I really wanted to
for some reason.

GE used a lot of them in their commercial two-way radios during the
late 70's and probably into the 80's. That was my first run-in with
them. Had to buy a couple special screwdrivers for them (still have
them too ;). You could get away with a regular phillips most of the
time, but when you came across one that was really tight... It looked a
bit tacky too, messing up the heads on screws when you were suppose to
be a certified repair facility.

Watch for some old GE Master II type radios (GE called a lot of radios
"Master" something) and then take a good look at the screws used.

Speaking of electronics fasteners, anyone remember
Sony "slot-n-dot" screws? A slotted screw head with
a hole in the middle. A proper screwdriver had a pin
in the middle that mated with the hole and kept it
aligned. You could seriously lean on the screwdriver
without worrying about it slipping. I liked them.

Hex head vs hex socket head
 

Hex head vs hex socket head
 

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 03:16:19 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote:

writes:


Erik
You must live where salt on the roads isn't a Big Deal. I've lost
track of how many hex socket and Torx heads have rusted out to a sort-
of-round hole. Philips just rust out to a dimple. One reason for the
existance of needle-nose visegrips. Cars and trucks more than a few
years old look like metal mice have been nibbling on them.

Further, people saying "just use an impact driver" have never
tried doing so on a #1 Phillips screw on a flimsy piece of sheet
metal floating atop the headlight, deep inside the grill.

ELECTRIC impact, not physical hammer type. ;)

Back up the sheetmetal tab with a stick to give it some more stability
for the job. 3rd and 4th hands are usually necessary, but I've done
it alone before back in my wrenchin' days. I've never seen a #1
phillips screw on a headlight retainer ring before, though. All #2,
IIRC.

--
Happiness comes of the capacity to feel deeply, to enjoy
simply, to think freely, to risk life, to be needed.
-- Storm Jameson