Assuming no counterbore and space is not a problem, how do you
choose between hex head and hex socket head ?

I've noticed that hex head screws are commonly available up to
property class 8.8 while hex socket head screws go up to 12.9.
Why is that ?

--
André Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/
"The object of this year's expedition is to see if we can find
trace of last year's expedition."

On 11/18/2010 09:37 AM, Andre Majorel wrote:
Assuming no counterbore and space is not a problem, how do you
choose between hex head and hex socket head ?

I've noticed that hex head screws are commonly available up to
property class 8.8 while hex socket head screws go up to 12.9.
Why is that ?

Socket head screws are higher tech, and look more impressive. All the
racers will think better of you if you use socket head screws _everywhere_.

But you'll have to get some wrenches, 'cause vice-grips don't work as
well on socket-head screws.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Tim Wescott wrote:
On 11/18/2010 09:37 AM, Andre Majorel wrote:
Assuming no counterbore and space is not a problem, how do you
choose between hex head and hex socket head ?

I've noticed that hex head screws are commonly available up to
property class 8.8 while hex socket head screws go up to 12.9.
Why is that ?

Socket head screws are higher tech, and look more impressive. All the
racers will think better of you if you use socket head screws _everywhere_.

But you'll have to get some wrenches, 'cause vice-grips don't work as
well on socket-head screws.

What Tim said. And SHCS's require far less tool
clearance. BTW, If you want to get the full specified
strength from a SHCS boltup, be sure to do the little
chamfer where the through hole opens up into the counter-
bore. Details in Machinery's Handbook.

On Nov 18, 12:43*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 11/18/2010 09:37 AM, Andre Majorel wrote: Assuming no counterbore and space is not a problem, how do you
choose between hex head and hex socket head ?

I've noticed that hex head screws are commonly available up to
property class 8.8 while hex socket head screws go up to 12.9.
Why is that ?

Socket head screws are higher tech, and look more impressive. *All the
racers will think better of you if you use socket head screws _everywhere_.

But you'll have to get some wrenches, 'cause vice-grips don't work as
well on socket-head screws.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details athttp://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Absofrigginlutely. Back in the days when I was turning wrenches for a
living at a motorcycle shop in the Bronx (1974), the two most popular
jobs we did were drilling holes in exhast baffles to make Jap bikes
sound "better," and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

rangerssuck wrote:
(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. Phillips are a different story however.



--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 10:25:06 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote:
On 11/18/2010 09:37 AM, Andre Majorel wrote:
Assuming no counterbore and space is not a problem, how do you
choose between hex head and hex socket head ?

I've noticed that hex head screws are commonly available up to
property class 8.8 while hex socket head screws go up to 12.9.
Why is that ?

Socket head screws are higher tech, and look more impressive. All the
racers will think better of you if you use socket head screws _everywhere_.

But you'll have to get some wrenches, 'cause vice-grips don't work as
well on socket-head screws.

What Tim said. And SHCS's require far less tool
clearance.

And a set of wrenches that fits from #0 thru 1/2" screws costs less
than $20 and fits in your back pocket.

--
Ned Simmons

Ned Simmons wrote:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 10:25:06 -0800, Jim
wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote:
On 11/18/2010 09:37 AM, Andre Majorel wrote:
Assuming no counterbore and space is not a problem, how do you
choose between hex head and hex socket head ?

I've noticed that hex head screws are commonly available up to
property class 8.8 while hex socket head screws go up to 12.9.
Why is that ?

Socket head screws are higher tech, and look more impressive. All the
racers will think better of you if you use socket head screws _everywhere_.

But you'll have to get some wrenches, 'cause vice-grips don't work as
well on socket-head screws.

What Tim said. And SHCS's require far less tool
clearance.

And a set of wrenches that fits from #0 thru 1/2" screws costs less
than $20 and fits in your back pocket.

Slightly off-topic...

There's lots of hardcore biking where I live and the
$100 seats are theft targets. The bicycle shops have
been supergluing a bearing ball in the head of the
SHCS that tightens the seat clamp to discourage casual
theft. Hitting the SHCS with a torch for a few seconds
causes the ball to drop out.

Winston wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. Phillips are a different story however.



--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On 11/18/2010 09:37 AM, Andre Majorel wrote:
Assuming no counterbore and space is not a problem, how do you
choose between hex head and hex socket head ?

I've noticed that hex head screws are commonly available up to
property class 8.8 while hex socket head screws go up to 12.9.
Why is that ?

Socket head screws are higher tech, and look more impressive. All the
racers will think better of you if you use socket head screws
_everywhere_.

But you'll have to get some wrenches, 'cause vice-grips don't work as well
on socket-head screws.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html


I used to drag race years ago. The sanctioning body banned the used of
socket head capscrews in shear applications, supposedly the higher grade
bolts were more brittle and failed in shear.

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:20:29 -0800, Winston
wrote:

rangerssuck wrote:
(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. Phillips are a different story however.

Several years back, I purchased some "guaranteed for life"
screwdrivers. I asked if the guarantee applied to the Philips drivers
since I would never use them to drive, only to remove Philips head
fasteners.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Nov 18, 7:20*pm, Winston wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:

(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. *Phillips are a different story however.



--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.

It was (and I suppose still is) standard procedure to use a hammer/
impact driver on those screws. Virtually impossible to cam out when
you've hit it with a BFH.

David Billington wrote:

(...)

Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.

Perhaps the Dutch had a colony in Portland at one time?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philips
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_F._Phillips

--Winston

Jim Stewart wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote:
On 11/18/2010 09:37 AM, Andre Majorel wrote:
Assuming no counterbore and space is not a problem, how do you
choose between hex head and hex socket head ?

I've noticed that hex head screws are commonly available up to
property class 8.8 while hex socket head screws go up to 12.9.
Why is that ?

Socket head screws are higher tech, and look more impressive. All the
racers will think better of you if you use socket head screws
_everywhere_.

But you'll have to get some wrenches, 'cause vice-grips don't work as
well on socket-head screws.

What Tim said. And SHCS's require far less tool
clearance. BTW, If you want to get the full specified
strength from a SHCS boltup, be sure to do the little
chamfer where the through hole opens up into the counter-
bore. Details in Machinery's Handbook.

There are washers available that provide the same radius clearance too.

John

David Billington wrote:
Winston wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. Phillips are a different story however.



--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.


They usually get stripped when the wrong wrench is used, metric for sae
or the Allen wrench itself is not all the way into the socket head,
usually caused by dirt in the hole.

Removing stripped screws varies with where they are located. A good
quality pipe wrench works great if you can get at it. Sometimes you
can drive in a larger size piece of a metric Allen wrench and then put a
socket on the end of the Allen wrench stub.
Sometimes you can break the cap screw loose with a chisel and hammer.
Phillips screws can easily get screwed up by using a worn screwdriver or
the wrong size screw driver. A Reed and Prince screwdriver is not a
Phillips screwdriver. If you get a stubborn screw, sticking the
screwdriver tip in dirt or sand or grinding compound will lock the
screwdriver better in the screw head. I would recommend using a
replaceable tip screwdriver since the tip will sometimes shatter and
ruin the screw driver.
Another way is to cut a slot in the screw head with a dremel tool to fit
a slot screwdriver.

John

--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

It's too bad, PoziDriv screws used with the correct driver work
wonderfully! But a regular Phillips bit in a PoziDriv plays hell with
both fastener and driver... especially if any torque is involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidrive#Pozidrive

Erik

[1] I jumped on a $nap-On truck a several years back, and asked about
PoziDriv bits and drivers... he looked at me like I was from Mars. He
didn't look like a new guy dither, maybe 50 years old, and his truck,
while both clean and well stocked, had definitely seen years of use.

[2] With the possible exception of Canada... I hear they use a lot of
Robertson head screws up there. In my limited experience, they also seem
to work very well.

On 2010-11-19, John wrote:

[ ... ]

Sometimes you can break the cap screw loose with a chisel and hammer.
Phillips screws can easily get screwed up by using a worn screwdriver or
the wrong size screw driver.

A common problem -- because the right size Phillips driver
*looks* too big. If you can't train people to feel for minimum slack in
the fit of the bit to the screw slot, you will have a lot of munged
heads and bits.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Winston writes:

rangerssuck wrote:
(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. Phillips are a different story however.


I despise Phillips head screws. Try taking out the one on a
Salt Belt car's headlight rim...^%(*%^%^^(^

I prefer Torx; one of the very few good inventions of Generous Motors.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

I prefer Torx; one of the very few good inventions of Generous Motors.


Hmmm... I don't think Torx drive fasteners were GM's baby. They just use
them a lot. Check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx

For the record, I really like this drive system as well. I don't ever
recall having a Torx issue, other than the occasional need to clean
spooge and/or paint from screw heads.

Erik

On Nov 19, 2:07*am, Erik wrote:
I prefer Torx; one of the very few good inventions of Generous Motors.

Hmmm... I don't think Torx drive fasteners were GM's baby. They just use
them a lot. Check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx

For the record, I really like this drive system as well. I don't ever
recall having a Torx issue, other than the occasional need to clean
spooge and/or paint from screw heads.

Erik
You must live where salt on the roads isn't a Big Deal. I've lost
track of how many hex socket and Torx heads have rusted out to a sort-
of-round hole. Philips just rust out to a dimple. One reason for the
existance of needle-nose visegrips. Cars and trucks more than a few
years old look like metal mice have been nibbling on them.

Stan

David Lesher wrote:
writes:

rangerssuck wrote:
(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. Phillips are a different story however.


I despise Phillips head screws. Try taking out the one on a
Salt Belt car's headlight rim...^%(*%^%^^(^

Try a paste of Comet Cleaner and water applied to
the grooves before putting the driver in. And use
new high-quality drivers.

I prefer Torx; one of the very few good inventions of Generous Motors.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 07:47:04 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

David Lesher wrote:
writes:

rangerssuck wrote:
(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. Phillips are a different story however.


I despise Phillips head screws. Try taking out the one on a
Salt Belt car's headlight rim...^%(*%^%^^(^

Try a paste of Comet Cleaner and water applied to
the grooves before putting the driver in. And use
new high-quality drivers.

I bought some Philips drivers that have laser-cut "teeth" so they
bite in on the sides. Better than nothing.

I prefer Torx; one of the very few good inventions of Generous Motors.

And Robertson, of course, especially with the genuine hardened bits.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 11:22:38 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 07:47:04 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

David Lesher wrote:
writes:

rangerssuck wrote:
(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. Phillips are a different story however.


I despise Phillips head screws. Try taking out the one on a
Salt Belt car's headlight rim...^%(*%^%^^(^

Try a paste of Comet Cleaner and water applied to
the grooves before putting the driver in. And use
new high-quality drivers.

I bought some Philips drivers that have laser-cut "teeth" so they
bite in on the sides. Better than nothing.

I like the PoziDrive type screws which can take either Phillips or
Square drivers. Of the many types of Phillips screw heads, I adore
the ACR drives. They damnear prevent camout...while they're fresh.


I prefer Torx; one of the very few good inventions of Generous Motors.

And Robertson, of course, especially with the genuine hardened bits.

Ditto both.

--
Education is when you read the fine print.
Experience is what you get if you don't.
-- Pete Seeger

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:09:20 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Nov 18, 7:20Â*pm, Winston wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:

(...)

and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

I have yet to 'cam out' my first hex socket head
cap screw. Â*Phillips are a different story however.



--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.

It was (and I suppose still is) standard procedure to use a hammer/
impact driver on those screws. Virtually impossible to cam out when
you've hit it with a BFH.
Virtually?
I have "hogged out" phillips and posidrive screws with a hammer impact
driver. Does that count? The head ended up with a nice conical
depression in the center. Worked good as a center drill to start /
center the drill to drill the head off.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 05:49:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Nov 19, 2:07Â*am, Erik wrote:
I prefer Torx; one of the very few good inventions of Generous Motors.

Hmmm... I don't think Torx drive fasteners were GM's baby. They just use
them a lot. Check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx

For the record, I really like this drive system as well. I don't ever
recall having a Torx issue, other than the occasional need to clean
spooge and/or paint from screw heads.

Erik
You must live where salt on the roads isn't a Big Deal. I've lost
track of how many hex socket and Torx heads have rusted out to a sort-
of-round hole. Philips just rust out to a dimple. One reason for the
existance of needle-nose visegrips. Cars and trucks more than a few
years old look like metal mice have been nibbling on them.

Stan
I had a real good way of removing the seized phipips headlight
screws. Grab the booster pack - clamp the negative to the headlight
ring, and stick a welding rod in the positive. Jam the welding rod
onto the screw head untill it (the screw head) glows red - then get
the screwdriver in there and give it a twist.

Never failed for me unless someone had really chewed up the head
first.

In article
,
wrote:

On Nov 19, 2:07*am, Erik wrote:
I prefer Torx; one of the very few good inventions of Generous Motors.

Hmmm... I don't think Torx drive fasteners were GM's baby. They just use
them a lot. Check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx

For the record, I really like this drive system as well. I don't ever
recall having a Torx issue, other than the occasional need to clean
spooge and/or paint from screw heads.

Erik
You must live where salt on the roads isn't a Big Deal. I've lost
track of how many hex socket and Torx heads have rusted out to a sort-
of-round hole. Philips just rust out to a dimple. One reason for the
existance of needle-nose visegrips. Cars and trucks more than a few
years old look like metal mice have been nibbling on them.

Stan

True... I live in S California and rarely deal with salt eaten stuff...

Erik

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2010-11-19, John wrote:
Sometimes you can break the cap screw loose with a chisel and hammer.
Phillips screws can easily get screwed up by using a worn screwdriver or
the wrong size screw driver.

A common problem -- because the right size Phillips driver
*looks* too big. If you can't train people to feel for minimum slack in
the fit of the bit to the screw slot, you will have a lot of munged
heads and bits.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Yep. If we could only get them to think, The shank of the driver
is very nearly the diameter of the screw head, it would improve
the life of both. :-)
...lew...

rangerssuck writes:

On Nov 18, 12:43Â*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 11/18/2010 09:37 AM, Andre Majorel wrote: Assuming no counterbore and space is not a problem, how do you
choose between hex head and hex socket head ?

I've noticed that hex head screws are commonly available up to
property class 8.8 while hex socket head screws go up to 12.9.
Why is that ?

Socket head screws are higher tech, and look more impressive. Â*All the
racers will think better of you if you use socket head screws _everywhere_.

But you'll have to get some wrenches, 'cause vice-grips don't work as
well on socket-head screws.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Serviceshttp://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details athttp://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Absofrigginlutely. Back in the days when I was turning wrenches for a
living at a motorcycle shop in the Bronx (1974), the two most popular
jobs we did were drilling holes in exhast baffles to make Jap bikes
sound "better," and replacing all the phillips head screws with socket-
head screws. Both were totally cosmetic, but hey, if the jerks
^H^H^H^H^H customers were willing to pay...

Well... allen head or torx heads are harder to strip.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, Erik wrote:


--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.

Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, Erik wrote:


--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.


That set has been on sale for $5.88 several times this year.


--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist! I m just a very ticked
off scientist!!!

On 2010-11-20, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, Erik wrote:


--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.


That set has been on sale for $5.88 several times this year.



It is a good set.

i

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-20, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, Erik wrote:


--Winston -- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.


That set has been on sale for $5.88 several times this year.



It is a good set.


I have a couple of them.

--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist! I m just a very ticked
off scientist!!!

On 11/20/2010 6:17 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-20, Michael A. wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, wrote:


--Winston-- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.


That set has been on sale for $5.88 several times this year.



It is a good set.


I have a couple of them.

What good are security screws when anyone can go to HF and get tools for
$5.88 to remove them?

Ralph wrote:

On 11/20/2010 6:17 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-20, Michael A. wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, wrote:


--Winston-- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.


That set has been on sale for $5.88 several times this year.



It is a good set.


I have a couple of them.

What good are security screws when anyone can go to HF and get tools for
$5.88 to remove them?


Not all security tools are available to the public. Some I used over
20 years ago still aren't sold without a lot of paperwork. The more
common types are more safety related, to keep general idiots out of
things.


--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist! I m just a very ticked
off scientist!!!

On 2010-11-21, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ralph wrote:

On 11/20/2010 6:17 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-20, Michael A. wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, wrote:


--Winston-- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.


That set has been on sale for $5.88 several times this year.



It is a good set.


I have a couple of them.

What good are security screws when anyone can go to HF and get tools for
$5.88 to remove them?


Not all security tools are available to the public. Some I used over
20 years ago still aren't sold without a lot of paperwork. The more
common types are more safety related, to keep general idiots out of
things.



Do you have an example?

i

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-21, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ralph wrote:

On 11/20/2010 6:17 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-20, Michael A. wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, wrote:


--Winston-- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.


That set has been on sale for $5.88 several times this year.



It is a good set.


I have a couple of them.

What good are security screws when anyone can go to HF and get tools for
$5.88 to remove them?


Not all security tools are available to the public. Some I used over
20 years ago still aren't sold without a lot of paperwork. The more
common types are more safety related, to keep general idiots out of
things.



Do you have an example?



A hollow oval head used for CATV equipment. Hamlin used them on
their descramblers. You could get them out with a pair of dykes, but
nor without destroying the screw and damaging the case. Either cost the
customer their account, and they could never get cable service with our
company, anywhere in the US. A list of violators was kept, along with
their personal information for future reference.


A five sided version of an Allen head, with a center pin and used for
wall plates for addressable taps. For that one you had to buy the taps,
controller, wall plates, screws and tools at one time.

i


--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist! I m just a very ticked
off scientist!!!

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 19:22:50 -0600, Ralph
wrote:

On 11/20/2010 6:17 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-20, Michael A. wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:08:50 -0800, wrote:


--Winston-- Helix'ed a few Allen wrenches though.
I have had a SHCS cam out as it must have been abused in the past and
the socket was damaged. Tried everything including a lever to force the
bit into the socket but it was always ejected, new sections cut from new
Allen keys no use, hex drive bits no use, Went down the pub that evening
to forget it and came back the next day with a carbide burr in a die
grinder to remove the head, once it was removed the thread unscrewed by
hand as the thread was clean and not binding and could be undone with
your fingers. Not so used to Phillips in the UK as PoziDrive is much
more common. Also would have to check the spelling as the European
Philips maybe confused with phillips, any relation?.



There a LOT of PoziDriv screws used in the US as well, but an amazingly
small number of people who have even heard the name[1], and even fewer
that can identify one. Only 5% of those remaining actually have and use
PoziDriv drivers. At last count, it was me, and four others spread
across all of N America.[2]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.


That set has been on sale for $5.88 several times this year.



It is a good set.


I have a couple of them.

What good are security screws when anyone can go to HF and get tools for
$5.88 to remove them?

Because the average crook isnt smart enough to do that.

Truth.


Gunner, Ex cop


--
"Confiscating wealth from those who have earned it, inherited it,
or got lucky is never going to help 'the poor.' Poverty isn't
caused by some people having more money than others, just as obesity
isn't caused by McDonald's serving super-sized orders of French fries
Poverty, like obesity, is caused by the life choices that dictate
results." - John Tucci,

On 2010-11-21, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
A hollow oval head used for CATV equipment. Hamlin used them on
their descramblers. You could get them out with a pair of dykes, but
nor without destroying the screw and damaging the case. Either cost the
customer their account, and they could never get cable service with our
company, anywhere in the US. A list of violators was kept, along with
their personal information for future reference.


Sounds like a pretty smart solution to customer malfeasance.

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-21, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
A hollow oval head used for CATV equipment. Hamlin used them on
their descramblers. You could get them out with a pair of dykes, but
nor without destroying the screw and damaging the case. Either cost the
customer their account, and they could never get cable service with our
company, anywhere in the US. A list of violators was kept, along with
their personal information for future reference.


Sounds like a pretty smart solution to customer malfeasance.


If the equipment wasn't protected, there was always someone who
thought that they could defeat the systems. Instead, they destroyed
equipment.


--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist! I m just a very ticked
off scientist!!!

On 2010-11-21, Ralph wrote:
On 11/20/2010 6:17 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-20, Michael A. wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

[ ... ]

PoziDriv bits are included in the HF 100-piece security bit set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=security+bits

Also clutch, torx (security and regular), metric and inch allens
(security and regular), torq-set, tri-wing and triple square, flat
blade and security flat blade, all for 9 bux.

That set has been on sale for $5.88 several times this year.

It is a good set.

I have a couple of them.

What good are security screws when anyone can go to HF and get tools for
$5.88 to remove them?

The people who you *want* to keep out (the ones likely to shock
themselves to death with an opened PC power supply) don't *know* that
you can do that. They just know that for some reason their Allen wrench
set does not work in the torx heads. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2010-11-21, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus3297 wrote:

On 2010-11-21, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ralph wrote:

[ ... ]

What good are security screws when anyone can go to HF and get tools for
$5.88 to remove them?


Not all security tools are available to the public. Some I used over
20 years ago still aren't sold without a lot of paperwork. The more
common types are more safety related, to keep general idiots out of
things.



Do you have an example?



A hollow oval head used for CATV equipment. Hamlin used them on
their descramblers. You could get them out with a pair of dykes, but
nor without destroying the screw and damaging the case. Either cost the
customer their account, and they could never get cable service with our
company, anywhere in the US. A list of violators was kept, along with
their personal information for future reference.


A five sided version of an Allen head, with a center pin and used for
wall plates for addressable taps. For that one you had to buy the taps,
controller, wall plates, screws and tools at one time.

That one does not sound that difficult for one of us to make.
(Hmm ... what would be nice would be some 1/4" hex drill rod stock
instead of round to start from. :-)

The oval head really would be easier with a CNC surface grinder
and an extra axis on an index head or rotary table.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---