I haven;t been around much lately as my ISP has dropped USENET, and
the Google access is annoying.

This weekend I overhauled a starter in my ex's Mercury. My Taurus had
about 250k miles on it and still had the original starter, and the
Mercury has the same starter yet it had to be rebuilt with 105k. When
I pulled the starter it had a sticker showing that the starter was
remanufactured.

Upon disassembly, the brushes were shot, but the bushings and the
armiture looked great, so it was a simple matter of cleaning and
installing the brush holder and the ex had he car back in service.

I find several things curious here. First this car had the starter
fail at least twice in 105k miles yet it is the same kind of starter
that went 250k miles.

Next, the failure of the brushes in the reman (starter #2?) failed,
yet the commutator was in pristine shape.

Any of you have any speculations why this would happen?

Also why is it so dammed hard to find overhaul kits for starters?

On Sep 21, 12:18*am, RS at work wrote:
I haven;t been around much lately as my ISP has dropped USENET, and
the Google access is annoying.

This weekend I overhauled a starter in my ex's Mercury. *My Taurus had
about 250k miles on it and still had the original starter, and the
Mercury has the same starter yet it had to be rebuilt with 105k. *When
I pulled the starter it had a sticker showing that the starter was
remanufactured.

Upon disassembly, the brushes were shot, but the bushings and the
armiture looked great, so it was a simple matter of cleaning and
installing the brush holder and the ex had he car back in service.

I find several things curious here. *First this car had the starter
fail at least twice in 105k miles yet it is the same kind of starter
that went 250k miles.

Next, the failure of the brushes in the reman (starter #2?) failed,
yet the commutator was in pristine shape.

Any of you have any speculations why this would happen?

Also why is it so dammed hard to find overhaul kits for starters?

There are probably many formulations of the materials used in making
carbon brushes as well as differences in sintering temperatures,
pressures, furnace atmosphere, etc. In addition there are cost and
quality issues involved in the manufacturing of these products. I
don't think that there is an simple answer to your question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brush_(electric)

On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:18:35 -0700 (PDT), RS at work
wrote:

I haven;t been around much lately as my ISP has dropped USENET, and
the Google access is annoying.

This weekend I overhauled a starter in my ex's Mercury. My Taurus had
about 250k miles on it and still had the original starter, and the
Mercury has the same starter yet it had to be rebuilt with 105k. When
I pulled the starter it had a sticker showing that the starter was
remanufactured.

Upon disassembly, the brushes were shot, but the bushings and the
armiture looked great, so it was a simple matter of cleaning and
installing the brush holder and the ex had he car back in service.

I find several things curious here. First this car had the starter
fail at least twice in 105k miles yet it is the same kind of starter
that went 250k miles.

Next, the failure of the brushes in the reman (starter #2?) failed,
yet the commutator was in pristine shape.

Any of you have any speculations why this would happen?

Also why is it so dammed hard to find overhaul kits for starters?

The brushes that were installed weren't hard enough or the wrong
material.

What would a "starter overhaul kit" consist of? Both bushings, pinion
gear, brushes and the pull in relay? Probably pretty expensive for the
guy that only needs a couple of brushes :-)

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:18:35 -0700 (PDT), RS at work
wrote:

I haven;t been around much lately as my ISP has dropped USENET, and
the Google access is annoying.

This weekend I overhauled a starter in my ex's Mercury. My Taurus had
about 250k miles on it and still had the original starter, and the
Mercury has the same starter yet it had to be rebuilt with 105k. When
I pulled the starter it had a sticker showing that the starter was
remanufactured.

Upon disassembly, the brushes were shot, but the bushings and the
armiture looked great, so it was a simple matter of cleaning and
installing the brush holder and the ex had he car back in service.

I find several things curious here. First this car had the starter
fail at least twice in 105k miles yet it is the same kind of starter
that went 250k miles.

Next, the failure of the brushes in the reman (starter #2?) failed,
yet the commutator was in pristine shape.

Any of you have any speculations why this would happen?

Also why is it so dammed hard to find overhaul kits for starters?

The brushes that were installed weren't hard enough or the wrong
material.

What would a "starter overhaul kit" consist of? Both bushings, pinion
gear, brushes and the pull in relay? Probably pretty expensive for the
guy that only needs a couple of brushes :-)

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 04:52:03 -0700 (PDT), "Denis G."
wrote:

On Sep 21, 12:18*am, RS at work wrote:
I haven;t been around much lately as my ISP has dropped USENET, and
the Google access is annoying.

This weekend I overhauled a starter in my ex's Mercury. *My Taurus had
about 250k miles on it and still had the original starter, and the
Mercury has the same starter yet it had to be rebuilt with 105k. *When
I pulled the starter it had a sticker showing that the starter was
remanufactured.

Upon disassembly, the brushes were shot, but the bushings and the
armiture looked great, so it was a simple matter of cleaning and
installing the brush holder and the ex had he car back in service.

I find several things curious here. *First this car had the starter
fail at least twice in 105k miles yet it is the same kind of starter
that went 250k miles.

Next, the failure of the brushes in the reman (starter #2?) failed,
yet the commutator was in pristine shape.

Any of you have any speculations why this would happen?

Also why is it so dammed hard to find overhaul kits for starters?

There are probably many formulations of the materials used in making
carbon brushes as well as differences in sintering temperatures,
pressures, furnace atmosphere, etc. In addition there are cost and
quality issues involved in the manufacturing of these products. I
don't think that there is an simple answer to your question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brush_(electric)

I'll second that faulty brush probability. When a vehicle is out of
tune, longer cranking times could account for that as well, halving
the useful lifetime.

How were the bushings? Premature wear there creates extreme drag and
increases the amperage going through those brushes.

--
Some people hear voices. Some see invisible people.
Others have no imagination whatsoever.

J. D. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:18:35 -0700 (PDT), RS at work
wrote:
ammed hard to find overhaul kits for starters?

The brushes that were installed weren't hard enough or the wrong
material.

What would a "starter overhaul kit" consist of? Both bushings, pinion
gear, brushes and the pull in relay? Probably pretty expensive for the
guy that only needs a couple of brushes :-)

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)


it used to be a starter kit had a bendix brushes and bushings. What I
got was the brush holder preloaded with new brushes. After I ordered,
I found a place that had all of the bushings with their kit.

Roger Shoaf

On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:18:35 -0700, RS at work wrote:

I haven;t been around much lately as my ISP has dropped USENET, and the
Google access is annoying.

http://www.eternal-september.org/

Cheers!
Rich

On Sep 20, 11:18*pm, RS at work wrote:
I haven;t been around much lately as my ISP has dropped USENET, and
the Google access is annoying.

This weekend I overhauled a starter in my ex's Mercury. *My Taurus had
about 250k miles on it and still had the original starter, and the
Mercury has the same starter yet it had to be rebuilt with 105k. *When
I pulled the starter it had a sticker showing that the starter was
remanufactured.

Upon disassembly, the brushes were shot, but the bushings and the
armiture looked great, so it was a simple matter of cleaning and
installing the brush holder and the ex had he car back in service.

I find several things curious here. *First this car had the starter
fail at least twice in 105k miles yet it is the same kind of starter
that went 250k miles.

Next, the failure of the brushes in the reman (starter #2?) failed,
yet the commutator was in pristine shape.

Any of you have any speculations why this would happen?

Also why is it so dammed hard to find overhaul kits for starters?

I've never seen an overhaul KIT, just piece parts. Want brushes, get
brushes, need a Bendix, buy a Bendix, need bearings, buy bearings,
ditto solenoid. By the time you get all of that, you could have a
rebuilt starter for $25-30. That may not last as long as factory new,
but probably a few more years.

Did you haul the armature out and clock it for runout between
centers? Had a VW generator that ate brushes but otherwise looked
fine. When I did that, I found the armature was .030" out of round.
A few quick passes on the lathe cured that, didn't eat brushes
anymore. Commutator wasn't pitted or burned, just not concentric.
Looked fine just looking at it.

I've found that discount rebuilts usually just are a repaint and new
brushes, they don't rewind, they don't do much more than shine up the
commutator with sandpaper and add bearings if needed. I usually look
them over very carefully and lube with MY choice of greases.

Stan

What's that Lassie? You say that RS at work fell down the old
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Mon, 20 Sep 2010 22:18:35 -0700 (PDT):

This weekend I overhauled a starter in my ex's Mercury. My Taurus had
about 250k miles on it and still had the original starter, and the
Mercury has the same starter yet it had to be rebuilt with 105k.

I find several things curious here. First this car had the starter
fail at least twice in 105k miles yet it is the same kind of starter
that went 250k miles.

Any of you have any speculations why this would happen?


But how many starts??
And how many amps when cranking??

If it's not the same motor, one could require more torque to spin
over.
Or if the driver starts/stops the engine frequently you could use up
the starters life in fewer miles driven.


--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

wrote:


I've never seen an overhaul KIT, just piece parts. Want brushes, get
brushes, need a Bendix, buy a Bendix, need bearings, buy bearings,
ditto solenoid. By the time you get all of that, you could have a
rebuilt starter for $25-30. That may not last as long as factory new,
but probably a few more years.

I always used to go that route untill the absoute cheapest rebuilt I
could find was about $75, most places wanted around $150. This was
for an old Mercury Topaz with a 4 cyl engine. All the Ford starters I
had delt with up till then were usually $15 to 20.

I was just going to buy one of the cheap ones and swap the nose, and
then I found out that the starter itself was smaller in diameter so
the nose swaping thing was not going to work. When I finally yanked
the old starter it was much cleaner than the underside of the car
suggesting to me that it had few miles on it. It had a nice shiny
Exide sticker just like the one I looked at when I got my kit. when I
took it apart it looked like someone scraped the commutator on the
sidewalk and while the bushing in the front of the starter was brand
new the one in the back was paper thin.

I turned the commutator, undercut the mica installed the brushes and
bushings and that motor cranked like nobodies business. That kit cost
$10, and to me it was worth the effort for the bench work vs. the risk
of having to crall back under the car and re-do the job a second time.




Did you haul the armature out and clock it for runout between
centers? Had a VW generator that ate brushes but otherwise looked
fine. When I did that, I found the armature was .030" out of round.
A few quick passes on the lathe cured that, didn't eat brushes
anymore. Commutator wasn't pitted or burned, just not concentric.
Looked fine just looking at it.

I've found that discount rebuilts usually just are a repaint and new
brushes, they don't rewind, they don't do much more than shine up the
commutator with sandpaper and add bearings if needed. I usually look
them over very carefully and lube with MY choice of greases.



I agree with you about the rebuilts I suspect they do as little as
they can and then give it a simple bench test and away it goes.

If this starter balks anytime soon I will through it on the lathe and
check if it runs true.

Roger Shoaf

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:01:30 -0700 (PDT), RS at work
wrote:



wrote:


I've never seen an overhaul KIT, just piece parts. Want brushes, get
brushes, need a Bendix, buy a Bendix, need bearings, buy bearings,
ditto solenoid. By the time you get all of that, you could have a
rebuilt starter for $25-30. That may not last as long as factory new,
but probably a few more years.

I always used to go that route untill the absoute cheapest rebuilt I
could find was about $75, most places wanted around $150. This was
for an old Mercury Topaz with a 4 cyl engine. All the Ford starters I
had delt with up till then were usually $15 to 20.

I was just going to buy one of the cheap ones and swap the nose, and
then I found out that the starter itself was smaller in diameter so
the nose swaping thing was not going to work. When I finally yanked
the old starter it was much cleaner than the underside of the car
suggesting to me that it had few miles on it. It had a nice shiny
Exide sticker just like the one I looked at when I got my kit. when I
took it apart it looked like someone scraped the commutator on the
sidewalk and while the bushing in the front of the starter was brand
new the one in the back was paper thin.

I turned the commutator, undercut the mica installed the brushes and
bushings and that motor cranked like nobodies business. That kit cost
$10, and to me it was worth the effort for the bench work vs. the risk
of having to crall back under the car and re-do the job a second time.

Interesting. I was taught to always undercut the generator armature
and never undercut the starter.


Did you haul the armature out and clock it for runout between
centers? Had a VW generator that ate brushes but otherwise looked
fine. When I did that, I found the armature was .030" out of round.
A few quick passes on the lathe cured that, didn't eat brushes
anymore. Commutator wasn't pitted or burned, just not concentric.
Looked fine just looking at it.

I've found that discount rebuilts usually just are a repaint and new
brushes, they don't rewind, they don't do much more than shine up the
commutator with sandpaper and add bearings if needed. I usually look
them over very carefully and lube with MY choice of greases.



I agree with you about the rebuilts I suspect they do as little as
they can and then give it a simple bench test and away it goes.

If this starter balks anytime soon I will through it on the lathe and
check if it runs true.

Roger Shoaf
Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:01:30 -0700 (PDT), RS at work
wrote:



wrote:


I've never seen an overhaul KIT, just piece parts. Want brushes, get
brushes, need a Bendix, buy a Bendix, need bearings, buy bearings,
ditto solenoid. By the time you get all of that, you could have a
rebuilt starter for $25-30. That may not last as long as factory new,
but probably a few more years.

I always used to go that route untill the absoute cheapest rebuilt I
could find was about $75, most places wanted around $150. This was
for an old Mercury Topaz with a 4 cyl engine. All the Ford starters I
had delt with up till then were usually $15 to 20.

I was just going to buy one of the cheap ones and swap the nose, and
then I found out that the starter itself was smaller in diameter so
the nose swaping thing was not going to work. When I finally yanked
the old starter it was much cleaner than the underside of the car
suggesting to me that it had few miles on it. It had a nice shiny
Exide sticker just like the one I looked at when I got my kit. when I
took it apart it looked like someone scraped the commutator on the
sidewalk and while the bushing in the front of the starter was brand
new the one in the back was paper thin.

I turned the commutator, undercut the mica installed the brushes and
bushings and that motor cranked like nobodies business. That kit cost
$10, and to me it was worth the effort for the bench work vs. the risk
of having to crall back under the car and re-do the job a second time.

Did you haul the armature out and clock it for runout between
centers? Had a VW generator that ate brushes but otherwise looked
fine. When I did that, I found the armature was .030" out of round.
A few quick passes on the lathe cured that, didn't eat brushes
anymore. Commutator wasn't pitted or burned, just not concentric.
Looked fine just looking at it.

I've found that discount rebuilts usually just are a repaint and new
brushes, they don't rewind, they don't do much more than shine up the

Rewind a rebuilt? Dreamer.


commutator with sandpaper and add bearings if needed. I usually look
them over very carefully and lube with MY choice of greases.

Before you install it? Good idea.
I agree with you about the rebuilts I suspect they do as little as
they can and then give it a simple bench test and away it goes.

THAT is the problem I hated with rebuilt starters. Even with a
lifetime guarantee, the cheapies would go out annually. It wasn't
worth it.


If this starter balks anytime soon I will through it on the lathe and
check if it runs true.

What's the procedure to "through it on", Rog?

--
Some people hear voices. Some see invisible people.
Others have no imagination whatsoever.

Larry Jaques wrote:



If this starter balks anytime soon I will through it on the lathe and
check if it runs true.

What's the procedure to "through it on", Rog?


OOPS! Should have been "true it on the lathe". "True" being a term
for making the surface of the commutator concentric with the armiture
shaft.

Roger Shoaf

J. D. Slocomb wrote:


Interesting. I was taught to always undercut the generator armature
and never undercut the starter.


Seems to me that any motor or generator should have the mica
undercut. As I understand, the reasons are that the undercuts catch
bits of stuff and keep it from piling up behind the brushes, and if
the mica is not undercut, as the copper wears the mica woulld then
stand proud and cause the brushes to jump.

I have heard some folks say they never do more than a quick polish
with sand paper, but if you look at a new armature the mica is always
undercut, also on the repair manuals that publish specs on the
commutator they have minimum diameter and undercut depths (Toyota as
an example I recall.) Also see:

http://www.tpub.com/content/misc_man...242-350037.htm

Roger Shoaf

On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 01:42:02 -0700 (PDT), RS at work
wrote:



J. D. Slocomb wrote:


Interesting. I was taught to always undercut the generator armature
and never undercut the starter.


Seems to me that any motor or generator should have the mica
undercut. As I understand, the reasons are that the undercuts catch
bits of stuff and keep it from piling up behind the brushes, and if
the mica is not undercut, as the copper wears the mica woulld then
stand proud and cause the brushes to jump.

I have heard some folks say they never do more than a quick polish
with sand paper, but if you look at a new armature the mica is always
undercut, also on the repair manuals that publish specs on the
commutator they have minimum diameter and undercut depths (Toyota as
an example I recall.) Also see:

http://www.tpub.com/content/misc_man...242-350037.htm

Roger Shoaf
You undercut mica on a generator, but NOT on a starter motor. The
hard carbon/copper brushes look after the mica - indercutting a
starter commutator GUARANTEES you will have a failure due to a shorted
armature when the copper dust fills the groove.

Don't ask me how I know.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 00:50:43 -0700 (PDT), RS at work
wrote:



Larry Jaques wrote:



If this starter balks anytime soon I will through it on the lathe and
check if it runs true.

What's the procedure to "through it on", Rog?


OOPS! Should have been "true it on the lathe". "True" being a term
for making the surface of the commutator concentric with the armiture
shaft.

Roger Shoaf
I though you ment "throw it on the lathe" to check if it runs true.

I was taught that on motors as a young boy. One thing to clean out
if still undercut are shavings of metal. All of that cleaned out.
Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 9/25/2010 3:42 AM, RS at work wrote:


J. D. Slocomb wrote:


Interesting. I was taught to always undercut the generator armature
and never undercut the starter.


Seems to me that any motor or generator should have the mica
undercut. As I understand, the reasons are that the undercuts catch
bits of stuff and keep it from piling up behind the brushes, and if
the mica is not undercut, as the copper wears the mica woulld then
stand proud and cause the brushes to jump.

I have heard some folks say they never do more than a quick polish
with sand paper, but if you look at a new armature the mica is always
undercut, also on the repair manuals that publish specs on the
commutator they have minimum diameter and undercut depths (Toyota as
an example I recall.) Also see:

http://www.tpub.com/content/misc_man...242-350037.htm

Roger Shoaf