WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an elderly Wheat
Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his life behind
bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his window
and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their pickup. He yelled at
them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer. He told police he
fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped 28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound to the
face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with him later.
According to court documents, he admitted he and Cardona stole the trailer.

Wallace did not want to talk on camera, but when we asked him if the two men
threatened him he said, "They almost ran me over."

The Jefferson County DA's office said that neither Torres nor Cardona have
been charged with anything at this point, even though Torres confessed to
the crime. However, the homeowner, Wallace is facing twelve felony counts,
including four counts of attempted first degree murder. If convicted, he
could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Sources say Torres and Cardona are believed to be in the country illegally
and both have an arrest record. Cardona's record includes public fighting
and numerous traffic offenses like driving without a license or insurance.
Torres's record includes agricultural trespassing as well as a 2005 arrest
for aggravated motor vehicle theft for which he was given a plea bargain to
a lesser crime. Sources say Torres is also under investigation for being
part of a major auto theft ring.

Wallace is out on bond and due back in court in September to enter his plea.

Neighbors say the thieves should be the ones facing charges and Wallace
should be given an award for protecting the neighborhood.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-theive...,231586.story?

Best Regards
Tom.

This is why we have a jury of our peers system in this country. A foolish DA
may bring charges, but you'll never see 12 people unanimously vote to put an
old man away protecting his property

Shame he missed the other one.

Karl

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...
This is why we have a jury of our peers system in this country. A foolish
DA may bring charges, but you'll never see 12 people unanimously vote to
put an old man away protecting his property

Shame he missed the other one.

Karl


Just wondering who will bring charges against that DA?
He cut loose two illegal aliens that are carrier criminals
that confesed to the crime. At the very least a call to ins
would be called for.

Best Regards
Tom.

On 7/9/2010 3:22 AM, azotic wrote:
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an elderly
Wheat Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his
life behind bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and
his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his
window and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their pickup.
He yelled at them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer. He
told police he fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped 28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound to
the face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with him
later. According to court documents, he admitted he and Cardona stole
the trailer.

Wallace did not want to talk on camera, but when we asked him if the two
men threatened him he said, "They almost ran me over."

The Jefferson County DA's office said that neither Torres nor Cardona
have been charged with anything at this point, even though Torres
confessed to the crime. However, the homeowner, Wallace is facing twelve
felony counts, including four counts of attempted first degree murder.
If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Sources say Torres and Cardona are believed to be in the country
illegally and both have an arrest record. Cardona's record includes
public fighting and numerous traffic offenses like driving without a
license or insurance. Torres's record includes agricultural trespassing
as well as a 2005 arrest for aggravated motor vehicle theft for which he
was given a plea bargain to a lesser crime. Sources say Torres is also
under investigation for being part of a major auto theft ring.

Wallace is out on bond and due back in court in September to enter his
plea.

Neighbors say the thieves should be the ones facing charges and Wallace
should be given an award for protecting the neighborhood.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-theive...,231586.story?

Elected official in that county. Whaddya bet the DA just flushed his
career?

On 2010-07-09, J. Clarke wrote:
On 7/9/2010 3:22 AM, azotic wrote:
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an elderly
Wheat Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his
life behind bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and
his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his
window and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their pickup.
He yelled at them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer. He
told police he fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped 28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound to
the face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with him
later. According to court documents, he admitted he and Cardona stole
the trailer.

Wallace did not want to talk on camera, but when we asked him if the two
men threatened him he said, "They almost ran me over."

The Jefferson County DA's office said that neither Torres nor Cardona
have been charged with anything at this point, even though Torres
confessed to the crime. However, the homeowner, Wallace is facing twelve
felony counts, including four counts of attempted first degree murder.
If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Sources say Torres and Cardona are believed to be in the country
illegally and both have an arrest record. Cardona's record includes
public fighting and numerous traffic offenses like driving without a
license or insurance. Torres's record includes agricultural trespassing
as well as a 2005 arrest for aggravated motor vehicle theft for which he
was given a plea bargain to a lesser crime. Sources say Torres is also
under investigation for being part of a major auto theft ring.

Wallace is out on bond and due back in court in September to enter his
plea.

Neighbors say the thieves should be the ones facing charges and Wallace
should be given an award for protecting the neighborhood.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-theive...,231586.story?

Elected official in that county. Whaddya bet the DA just flushed his
career?


As far as I know, like it or not, what Rober Wallace did (shooting at
thieves driving away) is a crime in every state of the United States.

That thieves were in the country illegally, is completely immaterial.

i

In article ,
Ignoramus30064 wrote:

On 2010-07-09, J. Clarke wrote:
On 7/9/2010 3:22 AM, azotic wrote:
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an elderly
Wheat Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his
life behind bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and
his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his
window and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their pickup.
He yelled at them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer. He
told police he fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped 28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound to
the face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with him
later. According to court documents, he admitted he and Cardona stole
the trailer.

Wallace did not want to talk on camera, but when we asked him if the two
men threatened him he said, "They almost ran me over."

The Jefferson County DA's office said that neither Torres nor Cardona
have been charged with anything at this point, even though Torres
confessed to the crime. However, the homeowner, Wallace is facing twelve
felony counts, including four counts of attempted first degree murder.
If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Sources say Torres and Cardona are believed to be in the country
illegally and both have an arrest record. Cardona's record includes
public fighting and numerous traffic offenses like driving without a
license or insurance. Torres's record includes agricultural trespassing
as well as a 2005 arrest for aggravated motor vehicle theft for which he
was given a plea bargain to a lesser crime. Sources say Torres is also
under investigation for being part of a major auto theft ring.

Wallace is out on bond and due back in court in September to enter his
plea.

Neighbors say the thieves should be the ones facing charges and Wallace
should be given an award for protecting the neighborhood.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-theive...t,0,231586.sto
ry?

Elected official in that county. Whaddya bet the DA just flushed his
career?


As far as I know, like it or not, what Rober Wallace did (shooting at
thieves driving away) is a crime in every state of the United States.

Except at night in Texas.

"Like it or not?" OK, not, well, not much. Pity, but if just plain
thievery was potentially fatal, there might be less of it. After all, a
thief is stealing whatever part of a victim's life it took to earn the
money to buy the object. Take part of a life, risk losing all of one's
own.


That thieves were in the country illegally, is completely immaterial.

'Fraid so. Thieves running away do not seem to be considered threats to
life. No threat to life, no shoot, period. (Isn't that redundant, period
and a "."?)

i

On 2010-07-09, John Husvar wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus30064 wrote:

On 2010-07-09, J. Clarke wrote:
On 7/9/2010 3:22 AM, azotic wrote:
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an elderly
Wheat Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his
life behind bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and
his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his
window and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their pickup.
He yelled at them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer. He
told police he fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped 28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound to
the face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with him
later. According to court documents, he admitted he and Cardona stole
the trailer.

Wallace did not want to talk on camera, but when we asked him if the two
men threatened him he said, "They almost ran me over."

The Jefferson County DA's office said that neither Torres nor Cardona
have been charged with anything at this point, even though Torres
confessed to the crime. However, the homeowner, Wallace is facing twelve
felony counts, including four counts of attempted first degree murder.
If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Sources say Torres and Cardona are believed to be in the country
illegally and both have an arrest record. Cardona's record includes
public fighting and numerous traffic offenses like driving without a
license or insurance. Torres's record includes agricultural trespassing
as well as a 2005 arrest for aggravated motor vehicle theft for which he
was given a plea bargain to a lesser crime. Sources say Torres is also
under investigation for being part of a major auto theft ring.

Wallace is out on bond and due back in court in September to enter his
plea.

Neighbors say the thieves should be the ones facing charges and Wallace
should be given an award for protecting the neighborhood.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-theive...t,0,231586.sto
ry?

Elected official in that county. Whaddya bet the DA just flushed his
career?


As far as I know, like it or not, what Rober Wallace did (shooting at
thieves driving away) is a crime in every state of the United States.

Except at night in Texas.

"Like it or not?" OK, not, well, not much. Pity, but if just plain
thievery was potentially fatal, there might be less of it. After all, a
thief is stealing whatever part of a victim's life it took to earn the
money to buy the object. Take part of a life, risk losing all of one's
own.

Some days I agree with you and some days I do not. Today I actually
agree. I cannot make up my mind about this.

The society in general (as opposed to just myself) pretty much
resolved this question and does not want people to shoot at fleeing
thieves. There are many reasons given for this. For example, what if
thieves were not thieves, but confused repo men who accidentally
hooked up the wrong trailer.

That thieves were in the country illegally, is completely immaterial.

'Fraid so. Thieves running away do not seem to be considered threats to
life. No threat to life, no shoot, period. (Isn't that redundant, period
and a "."?)

Yep.

i

On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 09:27:36 -0500, Ignoramus30064
wrote:


The society in general (as opposed to just myself) pretty much
resolved this question and does not want people to shoot at fleeing
thieves. There are many reasons given for this. For example, what if
thieves were not thieves, but confused repo men who accidentally
hooked up the wrong trailer.

And what if the thief was one's relative. People have a tendency to
view these situations simplistically until it involves one of their
own. Then the light comes on and they realize in so many of these
cases that no matter how much of a low-life their friend or relative
was, it wasn't nearly sufficient cause for a death sentence.

Wayne

"John Husvar" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ignoramus30064 wrote:

On 2010-07-09, J. Clarke wrote:
On 7/9/2010 3:22 AM, azotic wrote:
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an elderly
Wheat Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his
life behind bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and
his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his
window and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their pickup.
He yelled at them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer.
He
told police he fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped
28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound
to
the face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with him
later. According to court documents, he admitted he and Cardona stole
the trailer.

Wallace did not want to talk on camera, but when we asked him if the
two
men threatened him he said, "They almost ran me over."

The Jefferson County DA's office said that neither Torres nor Cardona
have been charged with anything at this point, even though Torres
confessed to the crime. However, the homeowner, Wallace is facing
twelve
felony counts, including four counts of attempted first degree murder.
If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Sources say Torres and Cardona are believed to be in the country
illegally and both have an arrest record. Cardona's record includes
public fighting and numerous traffic offenses like driving without a
license or insurance. Torres's record includes agricultural
trespassing
as well as a 2005 arrest for aggravated motor vehicle theft for which
he
was given a plea bargain to a lesser crime. Sources say Torres is also
under investigation for being part of a major auto theft ring.

Wallace is out on bond and due back in court in September to enter his
plea.

Neighbors say the thieves should be the ones facing charges and
Wallace
should be given an award for protecting the neighborhood.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-theive...t,0,231586.sto
ry?

Elected official in that county. Whaddya bet the DA just flushed his
career?


As far as I know, like it or not, what Rober Wallace did (shooting at
thieves driving away) is a crime in every state of the United States.

Except at night in Texas.

"Like it or not?" OK, not, well, not much. Pity, but if just plain
thievery was potentially fatal, there might be less of it.

Indeed. That's the theory that the Iranians apply to adultery. The amount of
it going on there probably is pretty modest compared to the US.

The difference is a matter of barbarity. Within limits, the more barbarous a
government is, the less crime. That is, unless people are really desperate
under a barbarous regime, in which case the effect of brutal penalties is
less.

The US has opted for low punitive barbarousness, and fairly high levels of
crime.


After all, a
thief is stealing whatever part of a victim's life it took to earn the
money to buy the object. Take part of a life, risk losing all of one's
own.

That's the old theory, all right. In Saudi Arabia, they cut off your hand.
It's more proportional. And it opens up business opportunities, such as
teaching people how to get along with one hand.



That thieves were in the country illegally, is completely immaterial.

'Fraid so. Thieves running away do not seem to be considered threats to
life. No threat to life, no shoot, period.

That's what you get in a country that places a high value on human life.

(Isn't that redundant, period and a "."?)

Uh, yes. g

--
Ed Huntress

On 2010-07-09, wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 09:27:36 -0500, Ignoramus30064
wrote:


The society in general (as opposed to just myself) pretty much
resolved this question and does not want people to shoot at fleeing
thieves. There are many reasons given for this. For example, what if
thieves were not thieves, but confused repo men who accidentally
hooked up the wrong trailer.

And what if the thief was one's relative. People have a tendency to
view these situations simplistically until it involves one of their
own. Then the light comes on and they realize in so many of these
cases that no matter how much of a low-life their friend or relative
was, it wasn't nearly sufficient cause for a death sentence.

Exactly. Many such situations are confusing. The relative example is a
good one. Or maybe a wife who allowed someone use the trailer, but
forgot to tell the husband.

After having a GPS stolen from my wife two days ago, I now think that
the answer lies in technology. It should be inexpensive to have in-car
video recorders, Lo-Jacks, GPSes reporting their positions if tracking
is activated by owner, etc. If we could make a few universal measures
amounting to $30 per protected device or so, it should eliminate
thefts of GPSes, cars and so forth.

We have to be somewhat mindful about privacy implications, (who can
turn on tracking and when) but it could be managed.

i

"Ignoramus30064" wrote in message
...
On 2010-07-09, wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 09:27:36 -0500, Ignoramus30064
wrote:


The society in general (as opposed to just myself) pretty much
resolved this question and does not want people to shoot at fleeing
thieves. There are many reasons given for this. For example, what if
thieves were not thieves, but confused repo men who accidentally
hooked up the wrong trailer.

And what if the thief was one's relative. People have a tendency to
view these situations simplistically until it involves one of their
own. Then the light comes on and they realize in so many of these
cases that no matter how much of a low-life their friend or relative
was, it wasn't nearly sufficient cause for a death sentence.

Exactly. Many such situations are confusing. The relative example is a
good one. Or maybe a wife who allowed someone use the trailer, but
forgot to tell the husband.

After having a GPS stolen from my wife two days ago, I now think that
the answer lies in technology. It should be inexpensive to have in-car
video recorders, Lo-Jacks, GPSes reporting their positions if tracking
is activated by owner, etc. If we could make a few universal measures
amounting to $30 per protected device or so, it should eliminate
thefts of GPSes, cars and so forth.

We have to be somewhat mindful about privacy implications, (who can
turn on tracking and when) but it could be managed.

i

It's just stuff. Stuff just isn't worth anything. I don't own anything
worth killing over, or even hurting someone over.

On Jul 9, 10:30*am, "Buerste" wrote:
"Ignoramus30064" wrote in message

...





On 2010-07-09, wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 09:27:36 -0500, Ignoramus30064
wrote:

The society in general (as opposed to just myself) pretty much
resolved this question and does not want people to shoot at fleeing
thieves. There are many reasons given for this. For example, what if
thieves were not thieves, but confused repo men who accidentally
hooked up the wrong trailer.

And what if the thief was one's relative. People have a tendency to
view these situations simplistically until it involves one of their
own. Then the light comes on and they realize in so many of these
cases that no matter how much of a low-life their friend or relative
was, it wasn't nearly sufficient cause for a death sentence.

Exactly. Many such situations are confusing. The relative example is a
good one. Or maybe a wife who allowed someone use the trailer, but
forgot to tell the husband.

After having a GPS stolen from my wife two days ago, I now think that
the answer lies in technology. It should be inexpensive to have in-car
video recorders, Lo-Jacks, GPSes reporting their positions if tracking
is activated by owner, etc. If we could make a few universal measures
amounting to $30 per protected device or so, it should eliminate
thefts of GPSes, cars and so forth.

We have to be somewhat mindful about privacy implications, (who can
turn on tracking and when) but it could be managed.

i

It's just stuff. *Stuff just isn't worth anything. *I don't own anything
worth killing over, or even hurting someone over.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And that is why the guy is being charged. Just went through this in
CCW class. Unless there is imminent danger of harm, a guy just can't
cut loose with a gun. If somebody is trying to run you over, a case
can be made, but it's got to be self-defense or in a person's
residence. Make-My-Day doesn't cover property theft outside. Taking
stuff is NOT a reason for a death sentence.

Stan

"azotic" wrote:

WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an elderly Wheat
Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his life behind
bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his window
and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their pickup. He yelled at
them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer. He told police he
fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped 28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound to the
face.

Sadly, in most states, a robber carrying out your swag, can give you the finger while
walking out of your home as long as he isn't visibly armed and is moving away from you and
there isn't a thing you can do about it.

I suspect if in such a situation I shot the guys car tires out before he got into his get
away vehical, I'd be charged with some crime for non lethally detaining him.

We are making some progress such as some states have laws enacting 'Castle Doctrine'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine that draws some lines as far as shoot / no
shoot. I'd have to look into for my state but I'm pretty sure someone driving off with my
trailer would be a no shoot since it is parked in the yard and not in a garage that is
attached to my home.

In this gents case, I hope for jury nullification.

I'd also like to know if the illegals are walking free at the moment.

Wes

On Fri, 9 Jul 2010 05:43:48 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote the following:

This is why we have a jury of our peers system in this country. A foolish DA
may bring charges, but you'll never see 12 people unanimously vote to put an
old man away protecting his property

Shame he missed the other one.

It's a shame he didn't get a round through each of 2 foreheads. And
I'd sure hate to be in that DA's shoes right about now.

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"John Husvar" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ignoramus30064 wrote:

On 2010-07-09, J. Clarke wrote:
On 7/9/2010 3:22 AM, azotic wrote:
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an elderly
Wheat Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his
life behind bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and
his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his
window and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their pickup.
He yelled at them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer.
He
told police he fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped
28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound
to
the face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with him
later. According to court documents, he admitted he and Cardona stole
the trailer.

Wallace did not want to talk on camera, but when we asked him if the
two
men threatened him he said, "They almost ran me over."

The Jefferson County DA's office said that neither Torres nor Cardona
have been charged with anything at this point, even though Torres
confessed to the crime. However, the homeowner, Wallace is facing
twelve
felony counts, including four counts of attempted first degree murder.
If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Sources say Torres and Cardona are believed to be in the country
illegally and both have an arrest record. Cardona's record includes
public fighting and numerous traffic offenses like driving without a
license or insurance. Torres's record includes agricultural
trespassing
as well as a 2005 arrest for aggravated motor vehicle theft for which
he
was given a plea bargain to a lesser crime. Sources say Torres is also
under investigation for being part of a major auto theft ring.

Wallace is out on bond and due back in court in September to enter his
plea.

Neighbors say the thieves should be the ones facing charges and
Wallace
should be given an award for protecting the neighborhood.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-theive...d-txt,0,231586.
sto
ry?

Elected official in that county. Whaddya bet the DA just flushed his
career?


As far as I know, like it or not, what Rober Wallace did (shooting at
thieves driving away) is a crime in every state of the United States.

Except at night in Texas.

"Like it or not?" OK, not, well, not much. Pity, but if just plain
thievery was potentially fatal, there might be less of it.

Indeed. That's the theory that the Iranians apply to adultery. The amount of
it going on there probably is pretty modest compared to the US.

The difference is a matter of barbarity. Within limits, the more barbarous a
government is, the less crime. That is, unless people are really desperate
under a barbarous regime, in which case the effect of brutal penalties is
less.

There is that diminishing returns thing. Once, legend (possibly urban)
says, a person could be hanged for stealing a loaf of bread. Didn't seem
to stop starving people from stealing bread. I wonder why.


The US has opted for low punitive barbarousness, and fairly high levels of
crime.

I'd draw some distinction between barbarousness and brutality, but I
understand your point. I'm of the totally unsupported opinion that
civilized merely means citified and barbarity does not preclude
civility. Some barbarians were quite civil folks and some city dwellers
were quite barbaric, stereotypically speaking.

Protecting criminals' rights inevitably has a cost in something, most
often higher crime, I agree. But I consider it worth it.



After all, a
thief is stealing whatever part of a victim's life it took to earn the
money to buy the object. Take part of a life, risk losing all of one's
own.

That's the old theory, all right. In Saudi Arabia, they cut off your hand.
It's more proportional. And it opens up business opportunities, such as
teaching people how to get along with one hand.

Prosthetics shops and Occupational Therapists might do well.




That thieves were in the country illegally, is completely immaterial.

'Fraid so. Thieves running away do not seem to be considered threats to
life. No threat to life, no shoot, period.

That's what you get in a country that places a high value on human life.

Funny how that value varies depending on whether it's my life or
somebody else's, not at all humorous but funny.


(Isn't that redundant, period and a "."?)

Uh, yes. g

Thought it might be.

shut up, John. You're getting silly!

In article ,
Ignoramus30064 wrote:

On 2010-07-09, John Husvar wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus30064 wrote:

On 2010-07-09, J. Clarke wrote:
On 7/9/2010 3:22 AM, azotic wrote:
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an elderly
Wheat Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his
life behind bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and
his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his
window and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their pickup.
He yelled at them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer. He
told police he fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped
28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound to
the face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with him
later. According to court documents, he admitted he and Cardona stole
the trailer.

Wallace did not want to talk on camera, but when we asked him if the
two
men threatened him he said, "They almost ran me over."

The Jefferson County DA's office said that neither Torres nor Cardona
have been charged with anything at this point, even though Torres
confessed to the crime. However, the homeowner, Wallace is facing
twelve
felony counts, including four counts of attempted first degree murder.
If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Sources say Torres and Cardona are believed to be in the country
illegally and both have an arrest record. Cardona's record includes
public fighting and numerous traffic offenses like driving without a
license or insurance. Torres's record includes agricultural trespassing
as well as a 2005 arrest for aggravated motor vehicle theft for which
he
was given a plea bargain to a lesser crime. Sources say Torres is also
under investigation for being part of a major auto theft ring.

Wallace is out on bond and due back in court in September to enter his
plea.

Neighbors say the thieves should be the ones facing charges and Wallace
should be given an award for protecting the neighborhood.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-theive...d-txt,0,231586.
sto
ry?

Elected official in that county. Whaddya bet the DA just flushed his
career?


As far as I know, like it or not, what Rober Wallace did (shooting at
thieves driving away) is a crime in every state of the United States.

Except at night in Texas.

"Like it or not?" OK, not, well, not much. Pity, but if just plain
thievery was potentially fatal, there might be less of it. After all, a
thief is stealing whatever part of a victim's life it took to earn the
money to buy the object. Take part of a life, risk losing all of one's
own.

Some days I agree with you and some days I do not. Today I actually
agree. I cannot make up my mind about this.

The society in general (as opposed to just myself) pretty much
resolved this question and does not want people to shoot at fleeing
thieves. There are many reasons given for this. For example, what if
thieves were not thieves, but confused repo men who accidentally
hooked up the wrong trailer.

Not the least reason is possibly missing the thieves and not missing
some uninvolved citizen.

Repo men? Hmmmm, now that creates a quandary indeed! Being mistaken for
a thief might just be an occupational hazard. I wonder what their
Workers' Compensation premiums are.


That thieves were in the country illegally, is completely immaterial.

'Fraid so. Thieves running away do not seem to be considered threats to
life. No threat to life, no shoot, period. (Isn't that redundant, period
and a "."?)

Yep.

i

In article ,
John Husvar wrote:

In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"John Husvar" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ignoramus30064 wrote:

On 2010-07-09, J. Clarke wrote:
On 7/9/2010 3:22 AM, azotic wrote:
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an
elderly
Wheat Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his
life behind bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and
his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his
window and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their
pickup.
He yelled at them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer.
He
told police he fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped
28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound
to
the face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with him
later. According to court documents, he admitted he and Cardona stole
the trailer.

Wallace did not want to talk on camera, but when we asked him if the
two
men threatened him he said, "They almost ran me over."

The Jefferson County DA's office said that neither Torres nor Cardona
have been charged with anything at this point, even though Torres
confessed to the crime. However, the homeowner, Wallace is facing
twelve
felony counts, including four counts of attempted first degree
murder.
If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Sources say Torres and Cardona are believed to be in the country
illegally and both have an arrest record. Cardona's record includes
public fighting and numerous traffic offenses like driving without a
license or insurance. Torres's record includes agricultural
trespassing
as well as a 2005 arrest for aggravated motor vehicle theft for which
he
was given a plea bargain to a lesser crime. Sources say Torres is
also
under investigation for being part of a major auto theft ring.

Wallace is out on bond and due back in court in September to enter
his
plea.

Neighbors say the thieves should be the ones facing charges and
Wallace
should be given an award for protecting the neighborhood.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-theive...ed-txt,0,23158
6.
sto
ry?

Elected official in that county. Whaddya bet the DA just flushed his
career?


As far as I know, like it or not, what Rober Wallace did (shooting at
thieves driving away) is a crime in every state of the United States.

Except at night in Texas.

"Like it or not?" OK, not, well, not much. Pity, but if just plain
thievery was potentially fatal, there might be less of it.

Indeed. That's the theory that the Iranians apply to adultery. The amount
of
it going on there probably is pretty modest compared to the US.

The difference is a matter of barbarity. Within limits, the more barbarous
a
government is, the less crime. That is, unless people are really desperate
under a barbarous regime, in which case the effect of brutal penalties is
less.

There is that diminishing returns thing. Once, legend (possibly urban)
says, a person could be hanged for stealing a loaf of bread. Didn't seem
to stop starving people from stealing bread. I wonder why.

I recall that the story about being hanged for a loaf of bread is in fact true.
It was in England, in the days when Larceny was a hanging offense. If I recall,
the defendant was a starving child, and this case so revulsed the English public
that the law soon changed.

Joe Gwinn

When I think of any "really tough on crime" country, like Saudi Arabia
or Singapore, my immediate thought is that I do not want to live
there.

i

On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 08:54:47 -0500, Ignoramus30064
wrote:

As far as I know, like it or not, what Rober Wallace did (shooting at
thieves driving away) is a crime in every state of the United States.

Indeed. With the exception of Texas.

However...a sympathetic jury will either nullify, or the defense will
bring up "protecting the public at large from violent felons"...which is
on the books in Most, though not all states



Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Fri, 9 Jul 2010 12:30:54 -0400, "Buerste" wrote:


"Ignoramus30064" wrote in message
...
On 2010-07-09, wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 09:27:36 -0500, Ignoramus30064
wrote:


The society in general (as opposed to just myself) pretty much
resolved this question and does not want people to shoot at fleeing
thieves. There are many reasons given for this. For example, what if
thieves were not thieves, but confused repo men who accidentally
hooked up the wrong trailer.

And what if the thief was one's relative. People have a tendency to
view these situations simplistically until it involves one of their
own. Then the light comes on and they realize in so many of these
cases that no matter how much of a low-life their friend or relative
was, it wasn't nearly sufficient cause for a death sentence.

Exactly. Many such situations are confusing. The relative example is a
good one. Or maybe a wife who allowed someone use the trailer, but
forgot to tell the husband.

After having a GPS stolen from my wife two days ago, I now think that
the answer lies in technology. It should be inexpensive to have in-car
video recorders, Lo-Jacks, GPSes reporting their positions if tracking
is activated by owner, etc. If we could make a few universal measures
amounting to $30 per protected device or so, it should eliminate
thefts of GPSes, cars and so forth.

We have to be somewhat mindful about privacy implications, (who can
turn on tracking and when) but it could be managed.

i

It's just stuff. Stuff just isn't worth anything. I don't own anything
worth killing over, or even hurting someone over.

I do. Even rusty nails are worth the life of a burglar.

If I choose to take it.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"John Husvar" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"John Husvar" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ignoramus30064 wrote:

On 2010-07-09, J. Clarke wrote:
On 7/9/2010 3:22 AM, azotic wrote:
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an
elderly
Wheat Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of
his
life behind bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property
and
his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his
window and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their
pickup.
He yelled at them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his
trailer.
He
told police he fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped
28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot
wound
to
the face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with
him
later. According to court documents, he admitted he and Cardona
stole
the trailer.

Wallace did not want to talk on camera, but when we asked him if
the
two
men threatened him he said, "They almost ran me over."

The Jefferson County DA's office said that neither Torres nor
Cardona
have been charged with anything at this point, even though Torres
confessed to the crime. However, the homeowner, Wallace is facing
twelve
felony counts, including four counts of attempted first degree
murder.
If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Sources say Torres and Cardona are believed to be in the country
illegally and both have an arrest record. Cardona's record includes
public fighting and numerous traffic offenses like driving without
a
license or insurance. Torres's record includes agricultural
trespassing
as well as a 2005 arrest for aggravated motor vehicle theft for
which
he
was given a plea bargain to a lesser crime. Sources say Torres is
also
under investigation for being part of a major auto theft ring.

Wallace is out on bond and due back in court in September to enter
his
plea.

Neighbors say the thieves should be the ones facing charges and
Wallace
should be given an award for protecting the neighborhood.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-theive...d-txt,0,231586.
sto
ry?

Elected official in that county. Whaddya bet the DA just flushed
his
career?


As far as I know, like it or not, what Rober Wallace did (shooting at
thieves driving away) is a crime in every state of the United States.

Except at night in Texas.

"Like it or not?" OK, not, well, not much. Pity, but if just plain
thievery was potentially fatal, there might be less of it.

Indeed. That's the theory that the Iranians apply to adultery. The amount
of
it going on there probably is pretty modest compared to the US.

The difference is a matter of barbarity. Within limits, the more
barbarous a
government is, the less crime. That is, unless people are really
desperate
under a barbarous regime, in which case the effect of brutal penalties is
less.

There is that diminishing returns thing. Once, legend (possibly urban)
says, a person could be hanged for stealing a loaf of bread. Didn't seem
to stop starving people from stealing bread. I wonder why.


The US has opted for low punitive barbarousness, and fairly high levels
of
crime.

I'd draw some distinction between barbarousness and brutality, but I
understand your point. I'm of the totally unsupported opinion that
civilized merely means citified and barbarity does not preclude
civility. Some barbarians were quite civil folks and some city dwellers
were quite barbaric, stereotypically speaking.

g I suppose so. However, never having known any original barbarians, it's
all hearsay to me.


Protecting criminals' rights inevitably has a cost in something, most
often higher crime, I agree. But I consider it worth it.

Yup. I didn't always feel that way, but watching how that slippery slope
works over the years, it's my opinion that we're better off living with some
crime and protecting civil rights.




After all, a
thief is stealing whatever part of a victim's life it took to earn the
money to buy the object. Take part of a life, risk losing all of one's
own.

That's the old theory, all right. In Saudi Arabia, they cut off your
hand.
It's more proportional. And it opens up business opportunities, such as
teaching people how to get along with one hand.

Prosthetics shops and Occupational Therapists might do well.

True. There's probably a prosthetics lobby for Sharia law.



That thieves were in the country illegally, is completely immaterial.

'Fraid so. Thieves running away do not seem to be considered threats to
life. No threat to life, no shoot, period.

That's what you get in a country that places a high value on human life.

Funny how that value varies depending on whether it's my life or
somebody else's, not at all humorous but funny.

You only need to read the posts here on this NG to watch it in action.



(Isn't that redundant, period and a "."?)

Uh, yes. g

Thought it might be.

shut up, John. You're getting silly!

On Jul 9, 1:22*am, "azotic" wrote:
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an elderly Wheat
Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his life behind
bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his window
and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their pickup. He yelled at
them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer. He told police he
fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped 28-year-old
Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound to the
face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with him later.