Hallo, I'm an italian hobby machinist and i have this old metal
shaper. I'd like to know some info about it an it's origin.
http://ftp.tiscali.it/porta.foto/fot...ice_destra.jpg
http://ftp.tiscali.it/porta.foto/fot...e_sinistra.jpg

I hope someone know it.
Thanks.

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 01:29:25 -0700 (PDT), adsodamelk
wrote:

Hallo, I'm an italian hobby machinist and i have this old metal
shaper. I'd like to know some info about it an it's origin.
http://ftp.tiscali.it/porta.foto/fot...ice_destra.jpg
http://ftp.tiscali.it/porta.foto/fot...e_sinistra.jpg

I hope someone know it.
Thanks.

Is there a name on it anywhere?

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Is there a name on it anywhere?

It's not a Logan, unless it's a VERY old one. I built my first miller out
of an old discarded Logan. They have some very characteristic castings
that are a give-away signature on the 1940s and up.

LLoyd

adsodamelk wrote:
Hallo, I'm an italian hobby machinist and i have this old metal
shaper. I'd like to know some info about it an it's origin.
http://ftp.tiscali.it/porta.foto/fot...ice_destra.jpg
http://ftp.tiscali.it/porta.foto/fot...e_sinistra.jpg

I hope someone know it.
Thanks.

Have a look here, the section on shapers is about 1/3 the way down the
page in the rightmost column. http://www.lathes.co.uk/page21.html

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:26:52 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

Is there a name on it anywhere?

It's not a Logan, unless it's a VERY old one. I built my first miller out
of an old discarded Logan. They have some very characteristic castings
that are a give-away signature on the 1940s and up.

LLoyd


Its too big for a Logan...and the openings in the side of the
column..over the flywheel...Ive never seen one with windows there
before.
Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

Thanks for helps to all.
I have disassembled it in order to clean varnish and oil; no trace of
write or brand!
The stroke is about 15" and the ram has square guides. I have added
the vise, the two cranks and the single phase motor, so them are not
original.
I have examined jet all the shaper in lathes.co.uk, but no trace of
it.

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:27:55 -0700 (PDT), adsodamelk
wrote:

Thanks for helps to all.
I have disassembled it in order to clean varnish and oil; no trace of
write or brand!
The stroke is about 15" and the ram has square guides. I have added
the vise, the two cranks and the single phase motor, so them are not
original.
I have examined jet all the shaper in lathes.co.uk, but no trace of
it.

Can you get a "feel"....if its American or if its European?

That may help to narrow it down.

Ive had several shapers and many were so close to each other in
construction that it was hard to tell who had made it.

Gunner, "Shaper Head"



"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Apr 14, 7:38*am, David Billington
wrote:
adsodamelk wrote:
Hallo, I'm an italian hobby machinist and i have this old metal
shaper. I'd like to know some info about it an it's origin.
http://ftp.tiscali.it/porta.foto/fot...ice_destra.jpg
http://ftp.tiscali.it/porta.foto/fot...e_sinistra.jpg

I hope someone know it.
Thanks.

Have a look here, the section on shapers is about 1/3 the way down the
page in the rightmost column.http://www.lathes.co.uk/page21.html

You owe my employer an hours worth of my salary!


Dave

On 2010-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:27:55 -0700 (PDT), adsodamelk
wrote:

Thanks for helps to all.
I have disassembled it in order to clean varnish and oil; no trace of
write or brand!
The stroke is about 15" and the ram has square guides. I have added
the vise, the two cranks and the single phase motor, so them are not
original.
I have examined jet all the shaper in lathes.co.uk, but no trace of
it.

Can you get a "feel"....if its American or if its European?

That may help to narrow it down.

Look for metric vs inch dimensions on things like the ways and
various screws used to assemble it.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Feed screws:
Tool slide screw is a 6 thread for inch, i think is a acme, isn't it?
Both table screw, vertical and horizontal are 4 thread for inch.

They are imperial. Bat all assemble bolts and nuts are metric, i'm
sure because i have replace a lot of them.

The dial of tool slide is wrong. It say 4,5 mm a turn instead of
4,23 , i.e. 1/6" .

On 15 Apr 2010 05:26:54 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:27:55 -0700 (PDT), adsodamelk
wrote:

Thanks for helps to all.
I have disassembled it in order to clean varnish and oil; no trace of
write or brand!
The stroke is about 15" and the ram has square guides. I have added
the vise, the two cranks and the single phase motor, so them are not
original.
I have examined jet all the shaper in lathes.co.uk, but no trace of
it.

Can you get a "feel"....if its American or if its European?

That may help to narrow it down.

Look for metric vs inch dimensions on things like the ways and
various screws used to assemble it.

Good Luck,
DoN.


Excellent suggestion.

I sold a 16" shaper a few years ago...cant remember the name of it at
the moment...couldnt find any id on it..except very very faintly stamped
into the clapper was the manufacture name and date. Stroke moment on
the name..but it was made in 1898.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 01:41:47 -0700 (PDT), adsodamelk
wrote:

Feed screws:
Tool slide screw is a 6 thread for inch, i think is a acme, isn't it?
Both table screw, vertical and horizontal are 4 thread for inch.

They are imperial. Bat all assemble bolts and nuts are metric, i'm
sure because i have replace a lot of them.

The dial of tool slide is wrong. It say 4,5 mm a turn instead of
4,23 , i.e. 1/6" .


Then its definately a European manufactured shaper. Unfortunately..on
this side of the pond..we dont have a lot of contact with European
machinery, with some few exceptions such as Colchester, Deckel, and so
forth.

I have a Helios horizontal miller, made by OM Larios that Id love to get
a manual for, but it was made in your country..Italy..and Ive yet to
find any documentation in the US.

http://picasaweb.google.com/gunnerasch/Larios#


Frankly..Ive run across a lot of shapers that have no ID..are rather
generic..and used them without knowing much about where they were made,
or when.

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

In article ,
adsodamelk wrote:

Feed screws:
Tool slide screw is a 6 thread for inch, i think is a acme, isn't it?

The metric equivalent of US Acme threads is Trapezoidal Metric threads.


Both table screw, vertical and horizontal are 4 thread for inch.

They are imperial. Bat all assemble bolts and nuts are metric, i'm
sure because i have replace a lot of them.

The dial of tool slide is wrong. It say 4,5 mm a turn instead of
4,23 , i.e. 1/6" .

How did you measure the 6 turns per inch?

What is the diameter of the tool slide screw?

Joe Gwinn

I have measured that 2 lenght in pictu
http://yfrog.com/1racmethreadj

tool slide screw:
Px10=42,3 mm
D= 20,1 mm

x horizontal screw
Px10=63,5 mm
D= 25,0 mm

D measure could be wrong about 0,1 - 0,2 mm

On 2010-04-15, adsodamelk wrote:
Feed screws:
Tool slide screw is a 6 thread for inch, i think is a acme, isn't it?

Acme is very likely. Trapezoidal threads with a 14-1/2 degree
included angle. Reall old machines were made with square threads, but
Acme is a lot easier to make.

Both table screw, vertical and horizontal are 4 thread for inch.

O.K. 0.250" per revolution for the Y and Z axis.

For the tool slide -- 6 TPI is strange. Not really a convenient
size at all for using an index collar on the hand crank. You wind up
with 0.1666" per revolution.

They are imperial. Bat all assemble bolts and nuts are metric, i'm
sure because i have replace a lot of them.

Which suggests that it was designed and built in a European
country -- and just fitted with Imperial leadscrews where it matters for
producing work to imperial dimensions.

The dial of tool slide is wrong. It say 4,5 mm a turn instead of
4,23 , i.e. 1/6" .

Suggesting that it was designed for metric work, and converted
by a later owner. Perhaps the conversion was because of easier purchase
of the Acme threaded rod in Imperial sizes during a rebuilding. The
original threads may well have been square instead of Acme.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2010-04-15, adsodamelk wrote:
I have measured that 2 lenght in pictu
http://yfrog.com/1racmethreadj

tool slide screw:
Px10=42,3 mm
D= 20,1 mm

x horizontal screw
Px10=63,5 mm
D= 25,0 mm

D measure could be wrong about 0,1 - 0,2 mm

Don't be confused by how I specify the numbers below. I'm
accustomed to using '.' as the separator between the integer portion and
the decimal portion of the number, while you are accustomed to using ','
for the same function -- just a difference in practice in our respective
countries. Rather than try to remember to use your system, and likely
making a mistake, I will continue to use mine and leave the possibility
of misinterpretation to you. :-)

The diameters suggest Metric -- and possibly some error in the
pitch measurement.

The first screw is close to (but a bit too large for) 3/4"
diameter. That would be 0.750" while the measured size is 0.7874"

The screw looks quite new which suggests that it is a recent
replacement.

Looking at the photo -- that is P*14 not P*10 shown spanned.
And if that matches the actual distance over which you measured, the
pitch is 4.23mm -- which is close to your 6 TPI when converted.

The second screw would be more likely to be 1" diameter (25.4mm)
not 25.0 if it were made in an Imperial country. But it appears to be
cut to 4 TPI anyway, which is strange unless it was for the specific
purpose of converting the machine to work in imperial units.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Sorry, i have made a terrible mistake.
The screw are square threaded. The image i have linked was only an
example to let know how i have mesured. (also number of threads is
random, i have measured 10 threads and not 14)
I'll add real photos of screw soon. I apologize.

However i cannot find any standard table of square thread. Are they
not standardized?

Here are the photos of real screws:
http://img695.imageshack.us/i/toolslideleadscrew.jpg/
http://img687.imageshack.us/i/horizontalleadscrew.jpg/
Definitely they are square screws.

I measured again:

tool slide screw:
TPI = 6 (I know, it's unusual, but it's as you
can see in this picture http://img72.imageshack.us/i/toolleadscrewmeasure.jpg/
)
D= 20,1 mm ( i have make this measure again and this is
the value)

x horizontal screw
TPI = 4
D= 25 mm (I'm sure that it's not 25,4mm , perhaps some
clerance...)

Definitely TPI is 4. I made a 4" lenght on the caliper stopped and it
fits very well with 16 threads, so 4 threads per inch. Otherwise i
have made a lenght of 100 mm on caliper and it's clear that it's very
different form 16 threads.

Here are the photos of real screws:
http://img695.imageshack.us/i/toolslideleadscrew.jpg/
http://img687.imageshack.us/i/horizontalleadscrew.jpg/
Definitely they are square screws.

I measured again:

tool slide screw:
TPI = 6 (I know, it's unusual, but it's as you
can see in this picture http://img72.imageshack.us/i/toolleadscrewmeasure.jpg/
)
D= 20,1 mm ( i have make this measure again and this is
the value)

x horizontal screw
TPI = 4
D= 25 mm (I'm sure that it's not 25,4mm , perhaps some
clerance...)

Definitely TPI is 4. I made a 4" lenght on the caliper stopped and it
fits very well with 16 threads, so 4 threads per inch. Otherwise i
have made a lenght of 100 mm on caliper and it's clear that it's very
different form 16 threads.

On 2010-04-16, adsodamelk wrote:
Sorry, i have made a terrible mistake.

Not as bad as "terrible". :-)

The screw are square threaded. The image i have linked was only an
example to let know how i have mesured. (also number of threads is
random, i have measured 10 threads and not 14)

O.K. Letting us know that it was just a reference photo would
have simplified things a bit.

I'll add real photos of screw soon. I apologize.

However i cannot find any standard table of square thread. Are they
not standardized?

Your problem is probably that you are looking in modern
references. Square threads were used before Acme became common.

The only mention which I can find for square threads in a fairly
recent _Machinery's Handbook_ (25th edition) is for a 10 degree (included
angle) *modified* square thread.

You really want old references for true square threads, and
those probably were not standardized at any period -- other than within
the company which manufactured the machine in question. In particular,
hybrids like a metric diameter (25mm) and an inch pitch (4 TPI or 0.250
pitch) would be specials at *any* time.

If you need new ones -- I would suggest that you go for Acme,
and if you want to maintain the inch feeds (so the dials will be
correct), I would suggest that you look for a 1" diameter (25.4mm) 4 TPI
Acme thread. You will need to make a new nut to go with the leadscrew,
but if the original leadscrew is worn enough to need replacing, you
almost certainly will have a badly worn nut, too.

The only reason for maintaining a true square thread (if that is
actually what you have) would be for historical accuracy, and since you
can't find a maker's name anywhere on the machine, I suspect that is not
particularly important.

Good luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2010-04-16, adsodamelk wrote:
Here are the photos of real screws:
http://img695.imageshack.us/i/toolslideleadscrew.jpg/
http://img687.imageshack.us/i/horizontalleadscrew.jpg/
Definitely they are square screws.

I'll agree that the tool slide leadscrew is a square thread, but
looking at the horizontal leadscrew -- I think that it looks more like
Acme. It is hard to be sure with the pixelation from the JPEG
compression and the poor contrast with the black background, but I think
that I see angled surfaces for the threads. Better contrast could be
obtained with some white paper behind the leadscrew.

I measured again:

tool slide screw:
TPI = 6 (I know, it's unusual, but it's as you
can see in this picture http://img72.imageshack.us/i/toolleadscrewmeasure.jpg/
)

Yes -- I agre with this.

D= 20,1 mm ( i have make this measure again and this is
the value)

x horizontal screw
TPI = 4
D= 25 mm (I'm sure that it's not 25,4mm , perhaps some
clerance...)

Definitely TPI is 4. I made a 4" lenght on the caliper stopped and it
fits very well with 16 threads, so 4 threads per inch. Otherwise i
have made a lenght of 100 mm on caliper and it's clear that it's very
different form 16 threads.

O.K. So since that one looks to me to be Acme, it could well be
the metric equivalent "trapezoidal threads", but not likely with a 4 TPI
thread -- unless it was custom made for the machine -- perhaps long
after the machine was made.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---