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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE
softeners... Can it simply be removed? What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on fixtures? The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst, develop a light film or scale and then stop there... Anything else I'm missing? The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to be expensive water either... Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There. Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022 01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/ Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill V8013-R |
#2
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
In article ,
"Joe AutoDrill" wrote: If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE softeners... Can it simply be removed? What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on fixtures? The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst, develop a light film or scale and then stop there... Anything else I'm missing? Your water heater will plug up. That can get rather expensive. If you use the hose to wash your car, it will spot. Two different hose outlets (one soft, one not) often make sense, or a valve to change one hose outlet from soft to not. The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to be expensive water either... Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? Sure, but they cost more and waste a lot of water. RO (reverse osmosis). Can make sense for drinking, depending on incoming water, but rather extravagant for whole house water use. My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There. You should certainly pull drinking water off ahead of the softener. Other than that, it's not much salt, and should not be very expensive unless you have a crappy inefficient old softener, or amazingly hard water. -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
In article ,
"Joe AutoDrill" wrote: If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE softeners... Can it simply be removed? Most can be taken out of service without even removing -look for a bypass valve at the softener. What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on fixtures? The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst, develop a light film or scale and then stop there... Anything else I'm missing? Your water heater will plug up. That can get rather expensive. If you use the hose to wash your car, it will spot. Two different hose outlets (one soft, one not) often make sense, or a valve to change one hose outlet from soft to not. Softened water is not good for watering the garden. You'll spend more on soap to get the same amount of cleaning done for laundry, dishes, etc. The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to be expensive water either... Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? Sure, but they cost more and waste a lot of water. RO (reverse osmosis). Can make sense for drinking, depending on incoming water quality, but rather extravagant for whole house water use. My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There. You should certainly pull drinking water off ahead of the softener. Other than that, it's not much salt, and should not be very expensive unless you have a crappy inefficient old softener, or amazingly hard water. -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by |
#4
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:52:08 -0400, Joe AutoDrill wrote:
The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to be expensive water either... Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? We plumbed our home so that soft water was provided only where we actually wanted soft water. Because it was new construction the plumbing was trival to put in at the time. Can't answer your questions about hardwater causeing problems with pipes- but we haven't run into any problems -- house is nearing 20 years old. For driniking water - we have located a small reverse osmois system - where we wanted drinking water. It's principle of operation wastes a good deal of water - but it does remove almost all the sodium chloride. We have 250mg/L NaCl as our water comes from the well - the softener adds yet more. hope it helps. Bill -- Email address is a Spam trap. |
#5
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
Joe AutoDrill wrote: If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE softeners... Can it simply be removed? Why do you hate them? What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on fixtures? The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst, develop a light film or scale and then stop there... Hard water eats copper pipes. Yes they get a light scale, but they continue to corrode through and develop pinhole leaks. This process may take 30 years if you have type L copper, less time for the thinner type M. Once you start getting the pinholes, it's time to replace *everything* as for every leak you repair, 5 more will sprout within days. I replumbed an entire house for this problem, and in another 20 years or so I expect it will need to be done again. Anything else I'm missing? The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to be expensive water either... As was noted, if you do anything but water the lawn with unsoftened water, expect mineral spotting, including where lawn watering oversprays onto the house, windows, etc. For drinking water, install one of the $150 or so under counter RO systems, they work quite well. They do produce reject water, but unlike backflush water from the water softener, the reject water isn't concentrated brine so it's safe for a septic system. Used just for drinking and cooking water, the volume of reject water is not significant. Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? Yes, the filtering system is known as a "water softener" and removes dissolved impurities in the water My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There. So use the slightly more expensive potassium chloride in the softener instead of sodium chloride. In either case, the RO filter for your drinking and cooking water will remove pretty much everything from that water. |
#6
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE
softeners... Can it simply be removed? Why do you hate them? Water tastes like crap and rinsing off in the shower feels like you have grease all over you... IMHO of course. Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? Yes, the filtering system is known as a "water softener" and removes dissolved impurities in the water Can you tell me more about this device? My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There. So use the slightly more expensive potassium chloride in the softener instead of sodium chloride. In either case, the RO filter for your drinking and cooking water will remove pretty much everything from that water. Thank you. Much appreciated. -- Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022 01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/ Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill V8013-R |
#7
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
In , on Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:52:08
-0400, Joe AutoDrill, wrote: Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There. What everyone else said, plus... A softener simply exchanges a less soluble salt for a more soluble salt. Let's say the salt in your well is calcium carbonate. The softener, containing either sodium chloride or potassium chloride, exchanges the ions so you end up with sodium carbonate or potassium carbonate in your water instead of calcium carbonate. The sodium/potassium carbonate is much more soluble, so doesn't build up hard mineral deposits, and when it even comes out of solution at all, is easily re- dissolved and washed away. If you're worried about sodium when you say "salt" then using potassium chloride in your softener puts "anti-salt" in your water. (Fast and loose with the terminology, but that's more or less the effect.) From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_in_biology The 2004 guidelines of the Institute of Medicine specify an RDA of 4700mg of potassium for adults[citation needed], based on intake levels that have been found to lower blood pressure, reduce salt sensitivity, and minimize the risk of kidney stones. However, most Americans consume only half that amount per day.[2] Similarly, in the European Union, particularly in Germany and Italy, insufficient potassium intake is widespread.[3] Reverse Osmosis is good for removing minerals from water, and with heavily softened water is often used after the softener, but demineralized water is quite flavorless (ever drunk distilled water?). Extensive taste tests show that the most preferred coffee is made with water containing around 150 mg of total dissolved solids (TDS)... so while it might seem intuitive that "pure" water is best for cooking purposes, that's certainly not the case with coffee. -- ˜¯˜¯ |
#8
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
Reverse Osmosis is good for removing minerals from
water, and with heavily softened water is often used after the softener, but demineralized water is quite flavorless (ever drunk distilled water?). Extensive taste tests show that the most preferred coffee is made with water containing around 150 mg of total dissolved solids (TDS)... so while it might seem intuitive that "pure" water is best for cooking purposes, that's certainly not the case with coffee. Again, excellent info. Thank you. Now... Guess what I dislike almost as much as salt? I drink coffee only when I'm VERY tired, and then it's black and strong so as to wake me up via caffiene and horrible taste. -- Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022 01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/ Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill V8013-R |
#9
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE softeners... Can it simply be removed? Why do you hate them? Water tastes like crap and rinsing off in the shower feels like you have grease all over you... IMHO of course. Hmm, a properly set up softener should not make bad-tasting water. Are you currently putting salt in the softener? It is possible if the previous occupant didn't put the salt in for years, absorbed stuff is coming out of the molecular sieve now. Or, you may have stuff in your water that the softener cannot remove. A softener is just that, it removes a small class of salt-type ions that make water "hard". it most certainly doesn't remove all ions, or any biological or organic contaminants. As for that "greasy" feeling, you should just get used to it. It is natural body oils that you never felt before due to the hardness of the water. Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? You really can't do that on a whole-house basis, especially if you have hard well water. It is just too much water to clean, and too much stuff in the water. Jon |
#10
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
Steve Ackman wrote:
If you're worried about sodium when you say "salt" then using potassium chloride in your softener puts "anti-salt" in your water. (Fast and loose with the terminology, but that's more or less the effect.) Right, I use KCl (sold as K-Lite and similar brands) in my softener for this reason. It IS a lot more expensive than NaCl (regular salt). Jon |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message ... If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE softeners... Can it simply be removed? What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on fixtures? The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst, develop a light film or scale and then stop there... Anything else I'm missing? The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to be expensive water either... Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There. Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022 01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/ Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill V8013-R If you do decide to investigate a reverse osmosis unit be aware that they don't handle calcium very well and they require a water softener ahead of the RO unit when the water hardness is above a certain level. Art |
#12
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:42:11 -0400, the infamous Ecnerwal
scrawled the following: Your water heater will plug up. That can get rather expensive. If you I added my filter because the existing water heater had at least 100 lbs of sand in it when I removed it. I've yet to see more than a grain or two in the clear filter housing in 8 years, though. use the hose to wash your car, it will spot. Two different hose outlets (one soft, one not) often make sense, or a valve to change one hose outlet from soft to not. The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to be expensive water either... Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? That's what I use on well water to the house. Lowes has 'em for $35ish with filters going for $7-12 a pair, depending upon 2-20u filtering size. I have an Omni 25. http://fwd4.me/INz Sure, but they cost more and waste a lot of water. RO (reverse osmosis). Can make sense for drinking, depending on incoming water, but rather extravagant for whole house water use. FIX: Holding tank for RO rinse water, used by sprinkler system. -- Adults are obsolete children. --Dr. Seuss (Theodore Geisel, 1904-1991) -- |
#13
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
On Mar 19, 8:52*am, "Joe AutoDrill" wrote:
If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... *But I HATE softeners... *Can it simply be removed? What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on fixtures? The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that would literally close down. *Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst, develop a light film or scale and then stop there... Anything else I'm missing? The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... *If we do keep it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. *I don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to be expensive water either... Secondly... *Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? My motto is "salt is bad!" so... *There. Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. A lot depends on how your water is "hard". The softeners substitute sodium for the calcium and magnesium ions in most hard water. If you've got iron or other stuff in there, you'd need some other treatment as well. If you remove the softener, your soap consumption will go up, both in the shower and for laundry, and soap won't rinse off as well as it otherwise would. Clothing will get itchy. Your sacrificial anode in the hot water heater will probably disappear faster and you'll get scale in there. You'll get lime buildups in valves, toilet bowls and tea kettles, anywhere water sits without moving for long periods. Shower and tub walls will be harder to clean. Your desired "filtering" system IS the softener. If you don't like messing with salt bags, there is/was an outfit that would swap resin cartridges, regenerate the resin at their plant and do it on a regular basis. Reverse osmosis will remove dissolved minerals, but doesn't run at household water pressure. The little lifeboat unit I saw had to have somebody pumping all the time, throughput was like a gallon a day and it cost 2 grand. Scaled up, with an electric pump and it'd probably be more expensive than that. There's supposed to be an electric softening system out there, haven't researched that. Unless you've got really funny water, you're getting sodium carbonate in the water after the ion exchange process occurs, NOT salt. And unless your water comes from limestone caves directly, it'll be in the parts per million level. Sodium carbonate is "washing soda", actually used in laundry detergents, washes out of stuff easily. May not taste the best. It's easy enough to tap off for outside faucets and kitchen-use cold water for ice-maker and drinking water before the softener. Harder, of course, if the unit sits in a finished basement or utility closet. The ion exchange resin eventually loses capacity, by that time, the timer and valves on the unit are probably worn out anyway, and it's time for a new one. If you're using a lot of salt and it's a older unit, that's probably what's going on. Have seen new hopper-load units for just over the century mark at wally world, way cheaper than when I was a kid. Also a lot more convenient to service. Stan |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
Joe AutoDrill wrote: Reverse Osmosis is good for removing minerals from water, and with heavily softened water is often used after the softener, but demineralized water is quite flavorless (ever drunk distilled water?). Extensive taste tests show that the most preferred coffee is made with water containing around 150 mg of total dissolved solids (TDS)... so while it might seem intuitive that "pure" water is best for cooking purposes, that's certainly not the case with coffee. Again, excellent info. Thank you. Now... Guess what I dislike almost as much as salt? I drink coffee only when I'm VERY tired, and then it's black and strong so as to wake me up via caffiene and horrible taste. Then use distilled water. -- Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!' |
#15
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message ... If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE softeners... Can it simply be removed? What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on fixtures? The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst, develop a light film or scale and then stop there... Anything else I'm missing? The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to be expensive water either... Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There. Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022 01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/ Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill V8013-R Our softener uses salt to clean the filter, so there is no salt in the water. We have iron and manganese plus some other stuff in our water. The lime still clogs the shower head, but there is no iron. Our well wasn't drilled deep enough to get below the surface water. Our neighbor drilled his well about 50 feet from our well. He got water at the same depth we did, but sealed the casing and went about 80 feet deeper. He got into the pure water and had a well producing 35 GPM compared to our well which produces about 12 GPM. We do have lines that are not filter for watering, but you have to be careful not to spray it on the house or building as it will stain them. The garden doesn't seem to care one way or the other if the water is filtered or not. Also if you wash a car you have to towel dry it, even with filtered water because the filter doesn't remove the lime. Or you get spots and streaks. If I had the money I would drill our well deeper to get below the surface water. Richard W. |
#16
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:00:31 -0700, "Richard W."
wrote: "Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message ... If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE softeners... Can it simply be removed? What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on fixtures? The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst, develop a light film or scale and then stop there... Anything else I'm missing? The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to be expensive water either... Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There. Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022 01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/ Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill V8013-R Our softener uses salt to clean the filter, so there is no salt in the water. We have iron and manganese plus some other stuff in our water. The lime still clogs the shower head, but there is no iron. Our well wasn't drilled deep enough to get below the surface water. Our neighbor drilled his well about 50 feet from our well. He got water at the same depth we did, but sealed the casing and went about 80 feet deeper. He got into the pure water and had a well producing 35 GPM compared to our well which produces about 12 GPM. We do have lines that are not filter for watering, but you have to be careful not to spray it on the house or building as it will stain them. The garden doesn't seem to care one way or the other if the water is filtered or not. Also if you wash a car you have to towel dry it, even with filtered water because the filter doesn't remove the lime. Or you get spots and streaks. If I had the money I would drill our well deeper to get below the surface water. Richard W. I can only comment that I have owned two houses in the same neighborhood. Both using the same water supply. One had galvanized water piping and the second had plastic. The first (galvanized) house had so many deposits in the pipes that several faucets hardly flowed at all. The second house, in which we have lived in for about 20 years, has plastic water piping and no problems with the water so far. Perhaps a more important question is what does hard water do to your kidneys? At least I have heard that people who live in hard water areas have more kidney stones. John B. |
#17
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
Randy wrote: On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:24:57 -0600, "Pete C." wrote: Joe AutoDrill wrote: If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE softeners... Can it simply be removed? Why do you hate them? What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on fixtures? The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst, develop a light film or scale and then stop there... Hard water eats copper pipes. Yes they get a light scale, but they continue to corrode through and develop pinhole leaks. This process may take 30 years if you have type L copper, less time for the thinner type M. Once you start getting the pinholes, it's time to replace *everything* as for every leak you repair, 5 more will sprout within days. I replumbed an entire house for this problem, and in another 20 years or so I expect it will need to be done again. SOFT water eats pipes, not hard. Water wants to have dissolved "stuff" in it, if you remove all the "stuff" it will strip ions from whatever source it can. IE pull copper off the pipes. I worked at a plant that had soft water cooling loops, every piece of copper piping on new equipment would begin to leak after just over a year in use, we would replace it all with 304 stainless and Swagelok fittings. You should have absolutely no salt taste in your soft water. If you do, your water softener is not working correctly. When I put a softener in my parents house I ran new lines to the kitchen and bathroom faucets with hard water. Also re-ran lines to the outside faucets so the lawn could be watered with hard water. Have the "Culligan man" or some other water guy come out to your house for a free water check or take a sample to a water testing lab and see exactly what is in your water before you make any decision. Option #2......Use the water softener on the hot water only, (installed before the heater), you will still see some savings on laundry and dishwasher soap. Thank You, Randy Remove 333 from email address to reply. No, hard water most certainly does eat up copper pipes. I've replaced plenty of it on a well with hard water. |
#18
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
John wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:00:31 -0700, "Richard W." wrote: "Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message ... If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE softeners... Can it simply be removed? What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on fixtures? The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst, develop a light film or scale and then stop there... Anything else I'm missing? The softener is in-line with ALL the water in the house... If we do keep it, I plan on removing it from almost everything except where needed. I don't want to be drinking softened water and I don't need my outdoor hose to be expensive water either... Secondly... Is there an in-line filtering system that removes the dissolved impurities in the water thus removing the need for a softener in the first place? My motto is "salt is bad!" so... There. Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022 01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/ Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill V8013-R Our softener uses salt to clean the filter, so there is no salt in the water. We have iron and manganese plus some other stuff in our water. The lime still clogs the shower head, but there is no iron. Our well wasn't drilled deep enough to get below the surface water. Our neighbor drilled his well about 50 feet from our well. He got water at the same depth we did, but sealed the casing and went about 80 feet deeper. He got into the pure water and had a well producing 35 GPM compared to our well which produces about 12 GPM. We do have lines that are not filter for watering, but you have to be careful not to spray it on the house or building as it will stain them. The garden doesn't seem to care one way or the other if the water is filtered or not. Also if you wash a car you have to towel dry it, even with filtered water because the filter doesn't remove the lime. Or you get spots and streaks. If I had the money I would drill our well deeper to get below the surface water. Richard W. I can only comment that I have owned two houses in the same neighborhood. Both using the same water supply. One had galvanized water piping and the second had plastic. The first (galvanized) house had so many deposits in the pipes that several faucets hardly flowed at all. The second house, in which we have lived in for about 20 years, has plastic water piping and no problems with the water so far. Perhaps a more important question is what does hard water do to your kidneys? At least I have heard that people who live in hard water areas have more kidney stones. John B. Dunno, I lived with a hard water well some 34 years with no kidney stones. |
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:24:57 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote: Joe AutoDrill wrote: If a home has hard water - well water - and a softener... But I HATE softeners... Can it simply be removed? Why do you hate them? What damage is done other than the obvious "mess" in the shower and on fixtures? The way I understand it, the danger was to old galvanized or steel pipe that would literally close down. Newer copper and PVC, etc. seems to, at worst, develop a light film or scale and then stop there... Hard water eats copper pipes. Yes they get a light scale, but they continue to corrode through and develop pinhole leaks. This process may take 30 years if you have type L copper, less time for the thinner type M. Once you start getting the pinholes, it's time to replace *everything* as for every leak you repair, 5 more will sprout within days. I replumbed an entire house for this problem, and in another 20 years or so I expect it will need to be done again. SOFT water eats pipes, not hard. Water wants to have dissolved "stuff" in it, if you remove all the "stuff" it will strip ions from whatever source it can. IE pull copper off the pipes. I worked at a plant that had soft water cooling loops, every piece of copper piping on new equipment would begin to leak after just over a year in use, we would replace it all with 304 stainless and Swagelok fittings. You should have absolutely no salt taste in your soft water. If you do, your water softener is not working correctly. When I put a softener in my parents house I ran new lines to the kitchen and bathroom faucets with hard water. Also re-ran lines to the outside faucets so the lawn could be watered with hard water. Have the "Culligan man" or some other water guy come out to your house for a free water check or take a sample to a water testing lab and see exactly what is in your water before you make any decision. Option #2......Use the water softener on the hot water only, (installed before the heater), you will still see some savings on laundry and dishwasher soap. Thank You, Randy Remove 333 from email address to reply. |
#20
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Semi-Metal Related... Water Softeners and Pipes...
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:10:53 -0500, Randy wrote:
SOFT water eats pipes, not hard. Water wants to have dissolved "stuff" in it, if you remove all the "stuff" it will strip ions from whatever source it can. IE pull copper off the pipes. I worked at a plant that had soft water cooling loops, every piece of copper piping on new equipment would begin to leak after just over a year in use, we would replace it all with 304 stainless and Swagelok fittings. Water will indeed dissolve many things; it's as close as we have to the universal solvent. But the concentration of ions in hard water and in soft water is not all that different. Soft water ~ 0.01% dissolved [magnesium, calcium, iron] ions; hard water ~ 0.03% though it can be higher. Soft water is not a significantly better solvent for ions than is hard water. Of course, water that has been softened has fewer Mg/Ca/Fe ions but more Na or K ions depending on what is being used in the softener. You should have absolutely no salt taste in your soft water. If you do, your water softener is not working correctly. Mmmm.... that depends on the water hardness. Each Ca/Mg/Fe ion absorbed by the zeolite in the softener releases two Na or K ions. If one has *very* hard water, say above the 0.05% concentration, I suspect that the softened water would have some taste. Most likely not exactly salt, more like baking soda. The counterions in hard water are usually hydrogen carbonate ions, giving NaHCO3.... I'm not as familiar with water treatment technology as I'd like to be, so maybe the Culligan folks have additional treatments to remove some of the sodium that would be generated by softening very hard water, I dunno. -- Best -- Terry |
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