FYI...

TMT


Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT – You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally — hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

There are options: Put the car in neutral, or in park, or switch off
the ignition. But experts say those choices would be almost impossible
for most drivers to consider when they're in a panic, because
frightened people often can't remember even simple steps to protect
themselves. That — coupled with increasingly complicated gadgetry —
makes cars a dangerous place to be when you're facing an unexpected
situation.

"You're stamping on the brakes and your attention is going to be
focused on where you're going and steering. There's no cognitive space
left to think of alternatives," said Dr. Boadie Dunlop, a psychiatrist
and director of the Mood and Anxiety Program at Emory University. "To
do something that's not natural, such as turning off the engine, is
just not going to come to mind."

Toyota Motor Corp. said Tuesday it is recalling about 437,000 Prius
and other hybrid vehicles worldwide to fix a problem with brakes that
are momentarily unresponsive in certain driving conditions.

That follows the automaker's recent recall of 5 million vehicles
because of reports of unintended acceleration, and it's changing the
gas pedals to prevent floor mats from jamming them. But complaints
about unwanted acceleration in Toyota vehicles go back at least to
2003, according to U.S. government filings.

The issue gained new urgency last August, when a high-speed crash near
San Diego killed an off-duty California highway patrol officer and
three family members. The officer's loaner Lexus ES350 reached speeds
of more than 120 mph, struck an SUV, launched off an embankment,
rolled several times and burst into flames. The family frantically
called 911 from the car, telling the dispatcher the pedal was stuck
and they couldn't stop.

It's not known what exact steps the officer took in that case, but
Dunlop said in such a situation, the brain can't handle all the
information it's getting.

"When people are in an intensely fearful situation, their ability to
problem-solve is greatly diminished," he said.

Venkat Thannir had his own brush with panic a few months ago. The 48-
year-old college instructor from South Carolina was pulling his 2010
Toyota Camry out of a Burger King parking lot when it sped up without
warning. He panicked for several seconds before pushing hard on the
brake pedal and stopping the car.

"The vehicle was out of control," he said. "If I was not in a parking
lot, it could have been a whole different story."

Thannir never figured out exactly what happened, but believes the
pedal was defective, since he considers himself a safe driver. He
plans to get the gas pedal repaired soon. In the meantime, he feels
safe driving the vehicle for now.

Drivers have an array of safety features, including push-button stop
in some cars. But the lack of standardization for those features
further hinders peoples' ability to react to unexpected situations,
since they vary from vehicle to vehicle, according to Paul Green, a
research professor at the University of Michigan Transportation
Research Institute.

Consumer Reports has criticized Toyota for the push-button ignition in
Toyota and Lexus vehicles, which requires drivers to hold down the
button for three seconds to turn off the vehicle in an emergency.
Drivers of Cadillacs, Nissans and Infinitis can shut off the engines
by pushing the button more than once.

"The design solution is to make them all work the same way," Green
said.

Green said there's also been little research into the way safety
features are laid out in the car. Is it easy to reach down and put the
car in neutral? Should neutral be in a different order on the shifter
so it's faster or easier to act? With push buttons, he said, one of
the biggest concerns was whether children would be able to reach over
and press them, not whether they were intuitive for drivers to use in
an emergency.

Green said vehicles are getting so complex that the extent to which
drivers can understand their cars is diminishing. In one recent
analysis, the institute projected that the owner's manual and
navigation manual for a luxury vehicle will grow to 1,000 pages over
the next decade.

"Can you conceive of a person reading all this stuff and remembering
all of it?" he said.

In the meantime, prepare yourself. Peter Norton, an associate
professor of psychology at the University of Houston, said drivers
should sit in their cars and go over the steps they could take in an
unexpected situation. It's the same reason military personnel practice
simulated battles or flight attendants repeat safety instructions on
every flight.

"It's most helpful for a person, when you do go into panic mode, to
resort to a natural tendency," he said.

"If you practice something over and over, that will be the thing that
happens."

___

Associated Press Writer Page Ivey contributed to this report from
Columbia, S.C.

What would you do? You would blame it on Bush! Why? You need to figure
that one out, most that read your crap already know.

RogerN

On Feb 10, 12:29*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
FYI...

TMT
What is your input on this?

Dan

On Feb 9, 7:47*pm, " wrote:
On Feb 10, 12:29*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote: FYI...

TMT

What is your input on this?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan

LOL..you first Dan.

TMT

On Feb 9, 6:49*pm, "RogerN" wrote:
What would you do? *You would blame it on Bush! *Why? You need to figure
that one out, most that read your crap already know.

RogerN

Having a bad day Roger? ;)

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
FYI...

TMT


Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT – You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally — hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

There are options: Put the car in neutral, or in park, or switch off
the ignition. But experts say those choices would be almost impossible
for most drivers to consider when they're in a panic, because
frightened people often can't remember even simple steps to protect
themselves.

-snip-



i'd say this happens all the time, and has been happening for god knows, 40
years. the story about the little old lady/little old man who accidentally
steps on teh accelerator instead of the brake and plows through a store
front, or a crowd at a parade, etc. etc. happens all the time. people
freak out. sensory overload. even just losing traction on ice.

b.w.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
FYI...

TMT


Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT – You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally — hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

There are options: Put the car in neutral, or in park, or switch off
the ignition. But experts say those choices would be almost impossible
for most drivers to consider when they're in a panic, because
frightened people often can't remember even simple steps to protect
themselves.



oh, wait, and i forgot, it's bush's fault.

b.w.

On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 17:47:46 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:29Â*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
FYI...

TMT
What is your input on this?

Dan


Toyota is doing the push-button start/stop the "normal " way. How do
you shut off a computer when the ctrl/alt/del does not work???
You press and hold the start/stop button for 3-5 seconds.
On just about every computer made in the last 10? years??????

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
FYI...

TMT


Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT – You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally — hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

I step on the clutch pedal and shift to neutral.

What? Your car has only two pedals? Is it a kiddie car?

David

William Wixon wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
FYI...

TMT


Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT – You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally — hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

There are options: Put the car in neutral, or in park, or switch off
the ignition. But experts say those choices would be almost impossible
for most drivers to consider when they're in a panic, because
frightened people often can't remember even simple steps to protect
themselves.

-snip-



i'd say this happens all the time, and has been happening for god knows, 40
years. the story about the little old lady/little old man who accidentally
steps on teh accelerator instead of the brake and plows through a store
front, or a crowd at a parade, etc. etc. happens all the time. people
freak out. sensory overload. even just losing traction on ice.

b.w.



Pure extract of Bull ****...


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/


"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time. For the clock may soon be still."

On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 16:29:35 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

FYI...

TMT


Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT – You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally — hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

There are options: Put the car in neutral, or in park, or switch off
the ignition. But experts say those choices would be almost impossible
for most drivers to consider when they're in a panic, because
frightened people often can't remember even simple steps to protect
themselves. That — coupled with increasingly complicated gadgetry —
makes cars a dangerous place to be when you're facing an unexpected
situation.

"You're stamping on the brakes and your attention is going to be
focused on where you're going and steering. There's no cognitive space
left to think of alternatives," said Dr. Boadie Dunlop, a psychiatrist
and director of the Mood and Anxiety Program at Emory University. "To
do something that's not natural, such as turning off the engine, is
just not going to come to mind."

Toyota Motor Corp. said Tuesday it is recalling about 437,000 Prius
and other hybrid vehicles worldwide to fix a problem with brakes that
are momentarily unresponsive in certain driving conditions.

That follows the automaker's recent recall of 5 million vehicles
because of reports of unintended acceleration, and it's changing the
gas pedals to prevent floor mats from jamming them. But complaints
about unwanted acceleration in Toyota vehicles go back at least to
2003, according to U.S. government filings.

The issue gained new urgency last August, when a high-speed crash near
San Diego killed an off-duty California highway patrol officer and
three family members. The officer's loaner Lexus ES350 reached speeds
of more than 120 mph, struck an SUV, launched off an embankment,
rolled several times and burst into flames. The family frantically
called 911 from the car, telling the dispatcher the pedal was stuck
and they couldn't stop.

It's not known what exact steps the officer took in that case, but
Dunlop said in such a situation, the brain can't handle all the
information it's getting.

"When people are in an intensely fearful situation, their ability to
problem-solve is greatly diminished," he said.

Venkat Thannir had his own brush with panic a few months ago. The 48-
year-old college instructor from South Carolina was pulling his 2010
Toyota Camry out of a Burger King parking lot when it sped up without
warning. He panicked for several seconds before pushing hard on the
brake pedal and stopping the car.

"The vehicle was out of control," he said. "If I was not in a parking
lot, it could have been a whole different story."

Thannir never figured out exactly what happened, but believes the
pedal was defective, since he considers himself a safe driver. He
plans to get the gas pedal repaired soon. In the meantime, he feels
safe driving the vehicle for now.

Drivers have an array of safety features, including push-button stop
in some cars. But the lack of standardization for those features
further hinders peoples' ability to react to unexpected situations,
since they vary from vehicle to vehicle, according to Paul Green, a
research professor at the University of Michigan Transportation
Research Institute.

Consumer Reports has criticized Toyota for the push-button ignition in
Toyota and Lexus vehicles, which requires drivers to hold down the
button for three seconds to turn off the vehicle in an emergency.
Drivers of Cadillacs, Nissans and Infinitis can shut off the engines
by pushing the button more than once.

"The design solution is to make them all work the same way," Green
said.

Green said there's also been little research into the way safety
features are laid out in the car. Is it easy to reach down and put the
car in neutral? Should neutral be in a different order on the shifter
so it's faster or easier to act? With push buttons, he said, one of
the biggest concerns was whether children would be able to reach over
and press them, not whether they were intuitive for drivers to use in
an emergency.

Green said vehicles are getting so complex that the extent to which
drivers can understand their cars is diminishing. In one recent
analysis, the institute projected that the owner's manual and
navigation manual for a luxury vehicle will grow to 1,000 pages over
the next decade.

"Can you conceive of a person reading all this stuff and remembering
all of it?" he said.

In the meantime, prepare yourself. Peter Norton, an associate
professor of psychology at the University of Houston, said drivers
should sit in their cars and go over the steps they could take in an
unexpected situation. It's the same reason military personnel practice
simulated battles or flight attendants repeat safety instructions on
every flight.

"It's most helpful for a person, when you do go into panic mode, to
resort to a natural tendency," he said.

"If you practice something over and over, that will be the thing that
happens."

___

Toyota stab 'n scare, datelined Detroit.

60 to 90 in a couple of seconds? Man, I didn't see any of those at
the Toyota store.

Put the car in park? It won't go in park at speeds of above 10mph or
so.

Frightened people who suffer cognitive overload in face of a minor
malfunction, per the guy from the Mood and Anxiety Program, perhaps
shouldn't be driving. I've had accelerators stick (VW, ice in the
cable tube), brakes abruptly fail on a steep hill with a lake at the
bottom of the hill (Houghton, MI and didn't suffer cognitive overload.
Last summer I saw a guy whose hood flew up as he was driving down the
road. He managed the situation without mishap.

"cavelamb" wrote in message
m...

FYI...

TMT


Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT – You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally — hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

There are options: Put the car in neutral, or in park, or switch off
the ignition. But experts say those choices would be almost impossible
for most drivers to consider when they're in a panic, because
frightened people often can't remember even simple steps to protect
themselves.




Pure extract of Bull ****...


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/


"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time. For the clock may soon be still."





i was just clicking through cbs's superbowel commercials, there were like
only 2 funny ones.

http://www.cbssports.com/video/playe...owlcommercials

this one made me think of this discussion group. this is what's going to
happen here in the u.s. if Obama shoves his eco-nazi laws down honest hard
working tax paying republican american's throats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq58zS4_jvM

On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 16:29:35 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools wrote:
FYI...

TMT


Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT ? You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally ? hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

There are options: Put the car in neutral, or in park, or switch off
the ignition. But experts say those choices would be almost impossible
for most drivers to consider when they're in a panic, because
frightened people often can't remember even simple steps to protect
themselves. That ? coupled with increasingly complicated gadgetry ?
makes cars a dangerous place to be when you're facing an unexpected
situation.

"You're stamping on the brakes and your attention is going to be
focused on where you're going and steering. There's no cognitive space
left to think of alternatives," said Dr. Boadie Dunlop, a psychiatrist
and director of the Mood and Anxiety Program at Emory University. "To
do something that's not natural, such as turning off the engine, is
just not going to come to mind."

[...]

The issue gained new urgency last August, when a high-speed crash near
San Diego killed an off-duty California highway patrol officer and
three family members. The officer's loaner Lexus ES350 reached speeds
of more than 120 mph, struck an SUV, launched off an embankment,
rolled several times and burst into flames. The family frantically
called 911 from the car, telling the dispatcher the pedal was stuck
and they couldn't stop.

This part is puzzling. If I imagine how long it takes for a
passenger, even an alert one, to:

1) Realize there is a problem,
2) Pull a cellphone out of their pocket,
3) Dial 911,
4) Press SEND (or whatever), and
5) Communicate the problem to a dispatcher,

I come up with 30 seconds or more. (More? Less?)

Now, if you're panicking, you probably _are_ locked in on stomping
on the brake, or trying to hold the car on the road, and just hoping
_something_ will change. But the driver probably recognizes that a
problem exists (say) 5 or 10 seconds before a passenger would, so
the driver has (say) 35-40 seconds, and based on my (_very_) limited
experience, 40 seconds during a traffic accident is a lifetime.
Time enough, even, to panic briefly, recover, and come up with ways
to make the car stop going so fast. _Without_ hitting something, I
mean.

Please don't misunderstand me. Having a locked-in accelerator is
not an experience I'd enjoy, and definitely not one I'd recommend to
-- or for -- _anyone_. And I'd probably be willing to help picket
Toyota for the specific purpose of making them aware that safety-
related problems should deserve immediate and direct attention from
the company.

But I have also seen a few media presentations that present the
problem as one that could kill thousands -- or hundreds of thousands
-- of drivers withn hours. (Okay, I'm exaggerating a bit, but I
think they were, too.)

[...]

"When people are in an intensely fearful situation, their ability to
problem-solve is greatly diminished," he said.

True. And repeated exposure to similar situations and experiences
can reduce the systemic "shock" that is so paralyzing. Boxers spar,
Marine recruits (presumably still) go through live-fire exercises,
and the gas mask drills for firemen (and Naval Air recruits) involve
removing one's mask in a densely smoke-filled room.

(From what my sister-in-law tells me, teaching schools should
probably develop their own live-fire exercises. grin!)

Venkat Thannir had his own brush with panic a few months ago. The 48-
year-old college instructor from South Carolina was pulling his 2010
Toyota Camry out of a Burger King parking lot when it sped up without
warning. He panicked for several seconds before pushing hard on the
brake pedal and stopping the car.

"The vehicle was out of control," he said. "If I was not in a parking
lot, it could have been a whole different story."

But there is no mention of any collision, so I'd assume that he
managed to stop without hitting anything. Even from a standing
start, "several seconds" implies a _big_ parking lot. Or was the
acceleration slower than what I'm imagining?

That's an interesting point. Has anyone heard whether the Toyota
problem involves the acceleration being locked on maximum, or only
(say) 1/4 maximum? That could have a _big_ effect on available
reaction time.

[...]

Drivers have an array of safety features, including push-button stop
in some cars. But the lack of standardization for those features
further hinders peoples' ability to react to unexpected situations,
since they vary from vehicle to vehicle, according to Paul Green, a
research professor at the University of Michigan Transportation
Research Institute.

Consumer Reports has criticized Toyota for the push-button ignition in
Toyota and Lexus vehicles, which requires drivers to hold down the
button for three seconds to turn off the vehicle in an emergency.
Drivers of Cadillacs, Nissans and Infinitis can shut off the engines
by pushing the button more than once.

Three seconds, in an accident, is a lifetime. Especially when the
three seconds is added on to however long it takes the driver to
recognize that a problem exists and then decide that turning the
engine off is the correct thing to do.

On the other hand, you don't want to make it easy for the kid
sitting next to the driver to trigger this. Or, at least, any
easier than it would be for the same kid to turn the igniton switch.

"The design solution is to make them all work the same way," Green
said.

Consistency is nice, but consistent use of a good design is better.
I don't want all manufacturers adopting the "three-second halt"
feature, for example.

[...]

Green said vehicles are getting so complex that the extent to which
drivers can understand their cars is diminishing. In one recent
analysis, the institute projected that the owner's manual and
navigation manual for a luxury vehicle will grow to 1,000 pages over
the next decade.

"Can you conceive of a person reading all this stuff and remembering
all of it?" he said.

If most of the 1,000 page manual is devoted to how to reprogram the
radio / stereo / telephone system, I'm not sure it matters. If most
of the 1,000 pages are actually required reading to _operate_ the
vehicle, I'll go find a used '65 VW bug: steering wheel, brake pedal, accelerator pedal, clutch, gearshift lever, emergency brake lever,
and ignition switch. Even at my age I think I can remember all
_those_. grin!

In the meantime, prepare yourself. Peter Norton, an associate
professor of psychology at the University of Houston, said drivers
should sit in their cars and go over the steps they could take in an
unexpected situation. It's the same reason military personnel practice
simulated battles or flight attendants repeat safety instructions on
every flight.

"It's most helpful for a person, when you do go into panic mode, to
resort to a natural tendency," he said.

"If you practice something over and over, that will be the thing that
happens."

A "defensive driving" course is a good idea. Do we want to make it
a Federally-mandated license requirement?


Frank McKenney
--
"But this...this, this, *this* is like being *nibbled* to death by...
what are those Earth creatures called? Feathers, long bill,
webbed feet...go quack..." "Cats." "Cats. I'm being nibbled to
death by cats." -- Londo and Vir / Babylon 5: "Chrysalis"
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all)

On Feb 9, 11:35*pm, cavelamb wrote:
William Wixon wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
....
FYI...

TMT

Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT – You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally — hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

There are options: Put the car in neutral, or in park, or switch off
the ignition. But experts say those choices would be almost impossible
for most drivers to consider when they're in a panic, because
frightened people often can't remember even simple steps to protect
themselves.

-snip-

i'd say this happens all the time, and has been happening for god knows, 40
years. *the story about the little old lady/little old man who accidentally
steps on teh accelerator instead of the brake and plows through a store
front, or a crowd at a parade, etc. etc. *happens all the time. *people
freak out. *sensory overload. *even just losing traction on ice.

b.w.

Pure extract of Bull ****...

--

Richard Lambhttp://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time. *For the clock may soon be still."

No, there really are a certain number of 'unintended acceleration'
cases each year that are caused by someone pressing on the gas when
they think their foot is on the brake pedal.

Probably the vast majority of cases are this, especially when the
driver is elderly.

The degree to which toyota's rate of unintended acceleration is above
the baseline of other manufacturers is probably a good indicator of
the actual mechanical failure rate for toyotas.


Dave

On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 23:49:37 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 16:29:35 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

FYI...

TMT


Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT – You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally — hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

There are options: Put the car in neutral, or in park, or switch off
the ignition. But experts say those choices would be almost impossible
for most drivers to consider when they're in a panic, because
frightened people often can't remember even simple steps to protect
themselves. That — coupled with increasingly complicated gadgetry —
makes cars a dangerous place to be when you're facing an unexpected
situation.

"You're stamping on the brakes and your attention is going to be
focused on where you're going and steering. There's no cognitive space
left to think of alternatives," said Dr. Boadie Dunlop, a psychiatrist
and director of the Mood and Anxiety Program at Emory University. "To
do something that's not natural, such as turning off the engine, is
just not going to come to mind."

Toyota Motor Corp. said Tuesday it is recalling about 437,000 Prius
and other hybrid vehicles worldwide to fix a problem with brakes that
are momentarily unresponsive in certain driving conditions.

That follows the automaker's recent recall of 5 million vehicles
because of reports of unintended acceleration, and it's changing the
gas pedals to prevent floor mats from jamming them. But complaints
about unwanted acceleration in Toyota vehicles go back at least to
2003, according to U.S. government filings.

The issue gained new urgency last August, when a high-speed crash near
San Diego killed an off-duty California highway patrol officer and
three family members. The officer's loaner Lexus ES350 reached speeds
of more than 120 mph, struck an SUV, launched off an embankment,
rolled several times and burst into flames. The family frantically
called 911 from the car, telling the dispatcher the pedal was stuck
and they couldn't stop.

It's not known what exact steps the officer took in that case, but
Dunlop said in such a situation, the brain can't handle all the
information it's getting.

"When people are in an intensely fearful situation, their ability to
problem-solve is greatly diminished," he said.

Venkat Thannir had his own brush with panic a few months ago. The 48-
year-old college instructor from South Carolina was pulling his 2010
Toyota Camry out of a Burger King parking lot when it sped up without
warning. He panicked for several seconds before pushing hard on the
brake pedal and stopping the car.

"The vehicle was out of control," he said. "If I was not in a parking
lot, it could have been a whole different story."

Thannir never figured out exactly what happened, but believes the
pedal was defective, since he considers himself a safe driver. He
plans to get the gas pedal repaired soon. In the meantime, he feels
safe driving the vehicle for now.

Drivers have an array of safety features, including push-button stop
in some cars. But the lack of standardization for those features
further hinders peoples' ability to react to unexpected situations,
since they vary from vehicle to vehicle, according to Paul Green, a
research professor at the University of Michigan Transportation
Research Institute.

Consumer Reports has criticized Toyota for the push-button ignition in
Toyota and Lexus vehicles, which requires drivers to hold down the
button for three seconds to turn off the vehicle in an emergency.
Drivers of Cadillacs, Nissans and Infinitis can shut off the engines
by pushing the button more than once.

"The design solution is to make them all work the same way," Green
said.

Green said there's also been little research into the way safety
features are laid out in the car. Is it easy to reach down and put the
car in neutral? Should neutral be in a different order on the shifter
so it's faster or easier to act? With push buttons, he said, one of
the biggest concerns was whether children would be able to reach over
and press them, not whether they were intuitive for drivers to use in
an emergency.

Green said vehicles are getting so complex that the extent to which
drivers can understand their cars is diminishing. In one recent
analysis, the institute projected that the owner's manual and
navigation manual for a luxury vehicle will grow to 1,000 pages over
the next decade.

"Can you conceive of a person reading all this stuff and remembering
all of it?" he said.

In the meantime, prepare yourself. Peter Norton, an associate
professor of psychology at the University of Houston, said drivers
should sit in their cars and go over the steps they could take in an
unexpected situation. It's the same reason military personnel practice
simulated battles or flight attendants repeat safety instructions on
every flight.

"It's most helpful for a person, when you do go into panic mode, to
resort to a natural tendency," he said.

"If you practice something over and over, that will be the thing that
happens."

___

Toyota stab 'n scare, datelined Detroit.

60 to 90 in a couple of seconds? Man, I didn't see any of those at
the Toyota store.

Put the car in park? It won't go in park at speeds of above 10mph or
so.

Frightened people who suffer cognitive overload in face of a minor
malfunction, per the guy from the Mood and Anxiety Program, perhaps
shouldn't be driving.

They're the majority (whether they know it or not), and there's no way
to keep them from driving. Anyway, most everybody can be flummoxed at
times. When that happens, we'd be better off as individuals and a
society if we just owned up to it and learned from it, instead of
trying to scapegoat.

I've had accelerators stick (VW, ice in the
cable tube), brakes abruptly fail on a steep hill with a lake at the
bottom of the hill (Houghton, MI and didn't suffer cognitive overload.
Last summer I saw a guy whose hood flew up as he was driving down the
road. He managed the situation without mishap.

I asked my 84 year-old dad if he'd ever had a soda bottle roll under
the brake pedal. We had a good laugh over some of the stories. What's
amazing is how recent it was that we *didn't* demand that government
and car companies protect us from such stuff. The joke of it is that
if the government announced that it was forcing car makers to put a
cable between accelerator pedals and position indicators, most people
would nod like a herd of bobblehead Chihuahuas.

Wayne

The last time I inadvertantly kicked a floor mat and jammed the gas
pedal to the floor I turned the ignition key off and pulled over.

I suppose you could get on the cell phone and improve the gene pool as
an alternative.

Frnak McKenney wrote:

That's an interesting point. Has anyone heard whether the Toyota
problem involves the acceleration being locked on maximum, or only
(say) 1/4 maximum? That could have a _big_ effect on available
reaction time.
It is definitely a sticking pedal, so wherever you pushed it down, it
will just stay there. At least, the detailed article that was posted a
couple days ago, says that is what is going on. If you could get your
toe under the pedal, you should be able to pull it up, too.

Jon

On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:24:18 GMT, (Pinstripe
Sniper) wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

Frightened people who suffer cognitive overload in face of a minor
malfunction, per the guy from the Mood and Anxiety Program, perhaps
shouldn't be driving. I've had accelerators stick (VW, ice in the
cable tube), brakes abruptly fail on a steep hill with a lake at the
bottom of the hill (Houghton, MI and didn't suffer cognitive overload.

Which course of action did you take for the steep hill with lake?

Double clutch, rev to scream, downshift to first, take foot off of
accel and apply "emergency" brake at bottom of hill. No problem. It
was a 57 Ford with column shift.

"Dave__67" wrote in message
...
On Feb 9, 11:35 pm, cavelamb wrote:
William Wixon wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
FYI...

TMT

Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT – You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally — hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

There are options: Put the car in neutral, or in park, or switch off
the ignition. But experts say those choices would be almost impossible
for most drivers to consider when they're in a panic, because
frightened people often can't remember even simple steps to protect
themselves.

-snip-

i'd say this happens all the time, and has been happening for god
knows, 40
years. the story about the little old lady/little old man who
accidentally
steps on teh accelerator instead of the brake and plows through a store
front, or a crowd at a parade, etc. etc. happens all the time. people
freak out. sensory overload. even just losing traction on ice.

b.w.

Pure extract of Bull ****...

--

Richard Lambhttp://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time. For the clock may soon be still."

No, there really are a certain number of 'unintended acceleration'
cases each year that are caused by someone pressing on the gas when
they think their foot is on the brake pedal.

Probably the vast majority of cases are this, especially when the
driver is elderly.

The degree to which toyota's rate of unintended acceleration is above
the baseline of other manufacturers is probably a good indicator of
the actual mechanical failure rate for toyotas.


Dave

Anyone with a ford focus beware, the gas and brake pedals are too close
together, its easy to step on both at once.
John

On Feb 10, 2:01*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

LOL..you first Dan.

TMT

You should be first, because you started the thread. But since you
never actually put any effort into expressing you own thoughts, my
opinion is that you are extremely lazy and I am not going to get
sucked into this off topic thread.
Can you explain the LOL? Is it funny that you just post things for
others to react to? Or what? Maybe you can try to explain the humor.

Dan

On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:12:52 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
Frnak McKenney wrote:

That's an interesting point. Has anyone heard whether the Toyota
problem involves the acceleration being locked on maximum, or only
(say) 1/4 maximum? That could have a _big_ effect on available
reaction time.

It is definitely a sticking pedal, so wherever you pushed it down, it
will just stay there. At least, the detailed article that was posted a
couple days ago, says that is what is going on.

Jon,

Thanks for the update. Last time I really listened to one of the
news stories I had the impression that it was thought due to a
software problem.

So if one happened to be pressing lightly when it stuck, and if one
noticed the lack of decelleration when one let up on the pedal
_before_ one pressed it further, the acceleration might indeed be
minor (but constant). And an accelerator stuck at a lower power
position would be easier to counteract by use of the brake pedal.

But it would really nail the leadfoots. (Leadfeet?)

... If you could get your
toe under the pedal, you should be able to pull it up, too.

Geez. Talk about dredging up long-lost memories, Jon! (I mean me,
not you. grin!). After reading your description I recall having
to do exactly that once or twice in my '65 VW (how can you not love
a car whose ignition switch has a position labelled "FAHRT"?).

I know that used to press down hard on the pedal once and then let
up before turning the key, and this kind of press-release would be
the perfect occasion for a sticky pedal or cable to show up
(malfunctioning automatic choke on a cold morning?). The
transmission would have likely been in neutral, and in any case I
could have pressed the clutch pedal to effectively disengage the
engine.

Which brings up yet another puzzle. These problem Toyotas all have
automatic transmissions, right? I've mostly driven "stick", where
if I brake to a full stop without also clutching I wind up stalling
the engine. Don't automatics have to have some sort of mechanism
that automatically disengages the engine/transmission from the
wheels when you step on the brake pedal?

So... Imagine that I'm a Toyota driver. I step on my accelerator
pedal, the car starts speeding up, and it doesn't slow down the way
I would expect it to when I take my foot off the pedal. Isn't my
normal reaction to want to slow down, which I would normally do with
the brake pedal?

And shouldn't that actually _stop_ the car, albeit with the engine
still revving loudly in my ear?

So why then do we have a report of someone who managed to get up to
120MPH _without_ being able to stop his car? Was it simply a case
where the driver, faced with a very unusual situation, panicked and
even given 30 or 40 seconds to react, failed to think of using his
brake pedal? Or am I missing something?

The reported pieces just don't seem to fit. Frustrating.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.


Frank
--
"...[W]hen faced with a problem you do not understand, do any
part of it you do understand, then look at it again."
-- Robert A. Heinlein / "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress"
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all)

Frnak McKenney fired this volley
in m:


The reported pieces just don't seem to fit. Frustrating.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.


They make even less sense when you consider that a fuel injected engine
doesn't throttle up just because the throttle plate has been opened. The
ECM sees the throttle position, the change in airflow, the drop in
vacuum, and the extra lean-ness as an order to add more fuel via the
injectors.

Most cars also sense brake application, and won't continue to try to add
power (regardless of the throttle position) if the brakes have been
applied.

That's why Toyota said "Apply the brakes. Do NOT pump them; just apply
them steadily and bring the vehicle to a stop." If you were to pump the
brakes, the ECM would alternately honor the braking signal and try to
increase power during brake-off times, negating the effect.

LLoyd

Machinist60 wrote:


"Dave__67" wrote in message
...
On Feb 9, 11:35 pm, cavelamb wrote:
William Wixon wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...

FYI...

TMT

Drivers, cars are ill-equipped when panic sets in
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer Dee-ann Durbin, Ap Auto Writer
56 mins ago

DETROIT – You're driving down the highway and suddenly your car starts
accelerating on its own. Knuckles white, going from 60 to 90 miles an
hour in a couple of seconds, you do what comes naturally — hit the
brakes. But what if the car keeps going?

There are options: Put the car in neutral, or in park, or switch off
the ignition. But experts say those choices would be almost impossible
for most drivers to consider when they're in a panic, because
frightened people often can't remember even simple steps to protect
themselves.

-snip-

i'd say this happens all the time, and has been happening for god
knows, 40
years. the story about the little old lady/little old man who
accidentally
steps on teh accelerator instead of the brake and plows through a
store
front, or a crowd at a parade, etc. etc. happens all the time.
people
freak out. sensory overload. even just losing traction on ice.

b.w.

Pure extract of Bull ****...

--

Richard Lambhttp://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time. For the clock may soon be still."

No, there really are a certain number of 'unintended acceleration'
cases each year that are caused by someone pressing on the gas when
they think their foot is on the brake pedal.

Probably the vast majority of cases are this, especially when the
driver is elderly.

The degree to which toyota's rate of unintended acceleration is above
the baseline of other manufacturers is probably a good indicator of
the actual mechanical failure rate for toyotas.


Dave

Anyone with a ford focus beware, the gas and brake pedals are too close
together, its easy to step on both at once.
John

That's a Feature, to enable heal and toe braking

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:53:27 -0600, Frnak McKenney
wrote:

Isn't my
normal reaction to want to slow down, which I would normally do with
the brake pedal?

And shouldn't that actually _stop_ the car, albeit with the engine
still revving loudly in my ear?

More or less, and that's exactly what happened *twice* in the most
famous accident car, which was a dealership loaner. Initial
investigation indicates that a heavy, incorrect, oversized,
unrestrained, and out of place floor mat jammed the accelerator pedal.
The first driver braked to a stop, put the shifter in neutral,
dislodged the floor mat, and went on his way. He reported the issue,
but nothing was done about it. The next driver had the same problem
and got at least slowed down, but at some point the brakes got tired
of the abuse. He had a full load of backseat drivers, and somebody had
time to use a cell phone to call 911. Yet during it all apparently
nobody thought to reach down to the shifter. It's all spelled out in
excruciating detail here.
http://autos.aol.com/gallery/saylor-crash-report (start at page 23 if
you must)

So why then do we have a report of someone who managed to get up to
120MPH _without_ being able to stop his car? Was it simply a case
where the driver, faced with a very unusual situation, panicked and
even given 30 or 40 seconds to react, failed to think of using his
brake pedal? Or am I missing something?

Read the report. The driver had lots of time, but most likely he
suffered severe brain fade, followed eventually by brake fade.

Even at WOT, these cars will stop with brakes alone.
According to Car and Driver, V6 Camry:
70mph-0 closed throttle-174 ft
70mph-0 full throttle-190 ft
100-0 closed-347ft
100-0 full -435ft

The reported pieces just don't seem to fit.

Reporting is notoriously inaccurate and sensational, and this case is
a perfect example. But the factual info is readily available and makes
perfect sense. It's the public's need to imagine boogymen that's out
of place. They and the media feed off one another.

Wayne

On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 22:28:46 -0500, the infamous
scrawled the following:

Toyota is doing the push-button start/stop the "normal " way. How do
you shut off a computer when the ctrl/alt/del does not work???
You press and hold the start/stop button for 3-5 seconds.
On just about every computer made in the last 10? years??????

20 years. But remember, they're dealing with the unwashed masses who
can hardly steer a vehicle, let alone DRIVE one. There are documented
cases of people turning on the cruise control and climbing into the
back seat of their car to retrieve something. Google "stupid people
tricks" for more. sigh

--
In order that people may be happy in their work, these three things are
needed: They must be fit for it. They must not do too much of it. And
they must have a sense of success in it.
-- John Ruskin, Pre-Raphaelitism, 1850

On Feb 11, 10:04*am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Frnak McKenney fired this volley
innews:qrudnXMN7fd6hOnWnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@earthlink. com:



The reported pieces just don't seem to fit. *Frustrating.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

They make even less sense when you consider that a fuel injected engine
doesn't throttle up just because the throttle plate has been opened. *The
ECM sees the throttle position, the change in airflow, the drop in
vacuum, and the extra lean-ness as an order to add more fuel via the
injectors.

Most cars also sense brake application, and won't continue to try to add
power (regardless of the throttle position) if the brakes have been
applied.

That's why Toyota said "Apply the brakes. Do NOT pump them; just apply
them steadily and bring the vehicle to a stop." *If you were to pump the
brakes, the ECM would alternately honor the braking signal and try to
increase power during brake-off times, negating the effect.

LLoyd

Are there cars smart enough to sense the conflict? I would be a little
surprised they'd gotten that far.

Anyway, the reason for not pumping the brakes is that at WFO (or any
appreciable throttle) there's no engine vacuum to work the power
brakes.

WFO, slam on the brakes, and you have power brakes. Pump 'em once or
twice and the vacuum booster has no more vacuum, no more power
brakes.


Dave

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:11:44 -0700, wrote:


Even at WOT, these cars will stop with brakes alone.
According to Car and Driver, V6 Camry:
70mph-0 closed throttle-174 ft
70mph-0 full throttle-190 ft
100-0 closed-347ft
100-0 full -435ft

Right. Curb weight is 3263 lb. To stop it from 70 mph in 174 feet
with constant deceleration would take 3.39 sec and the brakes would
dissipate 213.8 KW (286.7 HP) during that time. The peak output of
the V-6 engine is 268 HP but it would develop considerably less than
this at most engine speeds even at WOT. Therefore, the brakes clearly
have the capacity to overcome the engine and stop the car.

The reported pieces just don't seem to fit.

But they make Toyota look bad, which must be good for Obama motors,
right?

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:19:32 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:11:44 -0700, wrote:


Even at WOT, these cars will stop with brakes alone.
According to Car and Driver, V6 Camry:
70mph-0 closed throttle-174 ft
70mph-0 full throttle-190 ft
100-0 closed-347ft
100-0 full -435ft

Right. Curb weight is 3263 lb. To stop it from 70 mph in 174 feet
with constant deceleration would take 3.39 sec and the brakes would
dissipate 213.8 KW (286.7 HP) during that time. The peak output of
the V-6 engine is 268 HP but it would develop considerably less than
this at most engine speeds even at WOT. Therefore, the brakes clearly
have the capacity to overcome the engine and stop the car.

The reported pieces just don't seem to fit.

But they make Toyota look bad, which must be good for Obama motors,
right?

That might be a motive in a few cases, but mostly it isn't the problem
IMO.

1. A large percentage of the population refuses to read up on anything
other than say, celebrity shenanigans. We're getting dumber by the day
(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/), and more proud of it. Some
people even brag of a lack of grade-school math skills, without which
it's hard to judge odds or estimate risk in any useful way. And a few
are so far gone that they probably won't accept that they stepped on
the wrong pedal unless they're shown pant-leg video.

2. Many of the people mentioned above believe that it's credible to
use "somebody should have told me" as an excuse for not knowing what
they should have. Which brings us to ...

3. A majority don't see anything wrong with refusing to take
responsibility if they fat-foot their car into a fender-bender or
worse. Much easier to blame electronic gremlins. Which may soon reach
the popularity of angels and bad backs, partly because they're all so
difficult to disprove. Some readers will think I'm exaggerating about
the lack of morality, but here's proof of where we're at.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/18/us...l?pagewanted=1
The same attitudes that lead to crap like that are at work in
fender-bender injury claims. Apparently there's hardly anybody left
who's willing to walk away without a multi-thousand dollar parting
gift, and frequently they're aided by winking doctors and lawyers.
We've accepted that it's OK to cheat the insurance company out of a
few thou for a sore neck, and have built a seemingly legitimate
industry around it. So it shouldn't be a surprise that many are
willing to take zero risk to save face, by pretending that their car
has a mysterious presence. Coming soon, ghostbusters for your Toyota,
which might look something like this.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba...wsing-edition/

4. There seems to a general trend to believe that money, other than
salary, must grow on trees or something. It's little wonder that the
same people who'll join the hysteria, and jump at any opportunity to
get some "free" money, will also complain about the increasing costs
of cars and insurance. See #1.

5. As with government, we get the press we deserve. "If it bleeds it
leads" is their motto, and some of them (take Fox News, please)
compete with their customers to see whose morals are worse. A few of
the worst offenders will publish properly-researched articles as well
eventually, but by then the meme of possessed vehicles will be well
entrenched, and virtually impossible to dislodge because of #1.

Combine all that with predictable stupid-driver tricks and a few
legitimate mechanical problems that are unavoidable, and the situation
at hand makes perfect sense.

Wayne

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:53:27 -0600, Frnak McKenney
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:12:52 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
Frnak McKenney wrote:

That's an interesting point. Has anyone heard whether the Toyota
problem involves the acceleration being locked on maximum, or only
(say) 1/4 maximum? That could have a _big_ effect on available
reaction time.

It is definitely a sticking pedal, so wherever you pushed it down, it
will just stay there. At least, the detailed article that was posted a
couple days ago, says that is what is going on.

Jon,

Thanks for the update. Last time I really listened to one of the
news stories I had the impression that it was thought due to a
software problem.

So if one happened to be pressing lightly when it stuck, and if one
noticed the lack of decelleration when one let up on the pedal
_before_ one pressed it further, the acceleration might indeed be
minor (but constant). And an accelerator stuck at a lower power
position would be easier to counteract by use of the brake pedal.

But it would really nail the leadfoots. (Leadfeet?)

... If you could get your
toe under the pedal, you should be able to pull it up, too.

Geez. Talk about dredging up long-lost memories, Jon! (I mean me,
not you. grin!). After reading your description I recall having
to do exactly that once or twice in my '65 VW (how can you not love
a car whose ignition switch has a position labelled "FAHRT"?).

I know that used to press down hard on the pedal once and then let
up before turning the key, and this kind of press-release would be
the perfect occasion for a sticky pedal or cable to show up
(malfunctioning automatic choke on a cold morning?). The
transmission would have likely been in neutral, and in any case I
could have pressed the clutch pedal to effectively disengage the
engine.



Which brings up yet another puzzle. These problem Toyotas all have
automatic transmissions, right? I've mostly driven "stick", where
if I brake to a full stop without also clutching I wind up stalling
the engine. Don't automatics have to have some sort of mechanism
that automatically disengages the engine/transmission from the
wheels when you step on the brake pedal?

Nope. Don't work that way.

So... Imagine that I'm a Toyota driver. I step on my accelerator
pedal, the car starts speeding up, and it doesn't slow down the way
I would expect it to when I take my foot off the pedal. Isn't my
normal reaction to want to slow down, which I would normally do with
the brake pedal?

And shouldn't that actually _stop_ the car, albeit with the engine
still revving loudly in my ear?

Nope. With drive by wire it would be good to make the throttle drop
when the brake is pressed like an electric assist bicycle.

So why then do we have a report of someone who managed to get up to
120MPH _without_ being able to stop his car? Was it simply a case
where the driver, faced with a very unusual situation, panicked and
even given 30 or 40 seconds to react, failed to think of using his
brake pedal? Or am I missing something?

Would have burnrd the brakes off - but shutting down the engine would
have solved the problem, had he thought to do so.

The reported pieces just don't seem to fit. Frustrating.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.


Frank
--
"...[W]hen faced with a problem you do not understand, do any
part of it you do understand, then look at it again."
-- Robert A. Heinlein / "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress"

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:04:49 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Frnak McKenney fired this volley
in m:


The reported pieces just don't seem to fit. Frustrating.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.


They make even less sense when you consider that a fuel injected engine
doesn't throttle up just because the throttle plate has been opened. The
ECM sees the throttle position, the change in airflow, the drop in
vacuum, and the extra lean-ness as an order to add more fuel via the
injectors.

Most cars also sense brake application, and won't continue to try to add
power (regardless of the throttle position) if the brakes have been
applied.

Actually VERY few link the throttle and the brake

That's why Toyota said "Apply the brakes. Do NOT pump them; just apply
them steadily and bring the vehicle to a stop." If you were to pump the
brakes, the ECM would alternately honor the braking signal and try to
increase power during brake-off times, negating the effect.

The reason NOT to pump the brakes is there is virtually no manifold
vacuum with the throttle open, and vacuum is required for the brake
booster to function.
There is enough vacuum for one or 2 applications - but not for pumping
the brake.
LLoyd

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:42:26 -0700, wrote:



3. A majority don't see anything wrong with refusing to take
responsibility if they fat-foot their car into a fender-bender or
worse. Much easier to blame electronic gremlins. Which may soon reach
the popularity of angels and bad backs, partly because they're all so
difficult to disprove. Some readers will think I'm exaggerating about
the lack of morality

I don't.

On Feb 10, 2:01*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Feb 9, 7:47*pm, " wrote:

On Feb 10, 12:29*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote: FYI...

TMT

What is your input on this?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan

LOL..you first Dan.

TMT

Still waiting for an actual comment from you.

Dan

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:19:32 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:11:44 -0700, wrote:


Even at WOT, these cars will stop with brakes alone.
According to Car and Driver, V6 Camry:
70mph-0 closed throttle-174 ft
70mph-0 full throttle-190 ft
100-0 closed-347ft
100-0 full -435ft

Right. Curb weight is 3263 lb. To stop it from 70 mph in 174 feet
with constant deceleration would take 3.39 sec and the brakes would
dissipate 213.8 KW (286.7 HP) during that time. The peak output of
the V-6 engine is 268 HP but it would develop considerably less than
this at most engine speeds even at WOT. Therefore, the brakes clearly
have the capacity to overcome the engine and stop the car.

The reported pieces just don't seem to fit.

But they make Toyota look bad, which must be good for Obama motors,
right?

Did you see the chart at Edmunds.com the other day? Obama Motors
continues to have the highest complaint rate (database) of any mfgr,
as they have for decades and decades. I think masochists buy them so
they can complain.

--
In order that people may be happy in their work, these three things are
needed: They must be fit for it. They must not do too much of it. And
they must have a sense of success in it.
-- John Ruskin, Pre-Raphaelitism, 1850