For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why...r-denso-pedal/

List of additional articles from the same outfit.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/tta...is-commentary/

I don't agree with all their conclusions, but they did a nice job.

Wayne

On 2/6/2010 9:47 AM, wrote:

For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why...r-denso-pedal/

List of additional articles from the same outfit.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/tta...is-commentary/

I don't agree with all their conclusions, but they did a nice job.

Thanks Wayne,

That is *so* much more credible than the letter I got from Toyota telling
me to throw away my floor mats.

--Winston


--
Support the blind and deaf. Hire a building contractor today!

wrote:

For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why...r-denso-pedal/


For a number of years my facility produced electronic throttle bodies. I often speculated
what could go wrong and never thought about the accelerator pedal. Most of the focus I
saw with the design was making sure it would get you home. One of the functional checks
was to make sure that LHS was set to make sure that if the motor that drove the throttle
plate failed, the throttle body would leave the plate open enough to do about 30 mph to
limp home.

I have to wonder why go to electronic throttle bodies in the first place? Was it to give
the PCM final control over driver inputs to satisfy emission regulations?


Wes

"Wes" wrote in message
...
wrote:

For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why...r-denso-pedal/


For a number of years my facility produced electronic throttle bodies. I
often speculated
what could go wrong and never thought about the accelerator pedal. Most
of the focus I
saw with the design was making sure it would get you home. One of the
functional checks
was to make sure that LHS was set to make sure that if the motor that
drove the throttle
plate failed, the throttle body would leave the plate open enough to do
about 30 mph to
limp home.

I have to wonder why go to electronic throttle bodies in the first place?
Was it to give
the PCM final control over driver inputs to satisfy emission regulations?


Wes

Throttle bodies were a way of coping with emission regulations in the face
of proliferating circuits, jets, vacuum lines, etc. in the electromechanical
carb systems they replaced. IIRC, the carb on my '76 VW Scirocco had around
six circuits. They just couldn't keep up. Electronic control of a single
injector was the salvation.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

I have to wonder why go to electronic throttle bodies in the first place?
Was it to give
the PCM final control over driver inputs to satisfy emission regulations?


Wes

Throttle bodies were a way of coping with emission regulations in the face
of proliferating circuits, jets, vacuum lines, etc. in the electromechanical
carb systems they replaced. IIRC, the carb on my '76 VW Scirocco had around
six circuits. They just couldn't keep up. Electronic control of a single
injector was the salvation.


The body we produced was just the air regulating portion of the system. I agree going to
EFI solved a lot of problems meeting EPA polution regulations.

Is a mechanical throttle linkage that big a deal to deal with?

I remember my old escort with a cat converter and carburetor, I'd go out and start it on a
cold day and head back in. Without someone to kick the choke off, I'd have a glowing red
spot under that car when I went back out to drive off. Must have been why the matrix
failed in that one.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

I have to wonder why go to electronic throttle bodies in the first
place?
Was it to give
the PCM final control over driver inputs to satisfy emission
regulations?


Wes

Throttle bodies were a way of coping with emission regulations in the face
of proliferating circuits, jets, vacuum lines, etc. in the
electromechanical
carb systems they replaced. IIRC, the carb on my '76 VW Scirocco had
around
six circuits. They just couldn't keep up. Electronic control of a single
injector was the salvation.


The body we produced was just the air regulating portion of the system. I
agree going to
EFI solved a lot of problems meeting EPA polution regulations.

Is a mechanical throttle linkage that big a deal to deal with?

It wasn't just the throttle linkage. Before carbs went out, some of them
(including the Weber on my VW) had an idle circuit; an off-idle circuit; an
accelerator circuit; a mid-range circuit; and a full-throttle circuit. I
don't remember how many jets and emulsion tubes ("aspirators") were in that
two-barrel carburetor, but the combined number was at least eight. Maybe
more.

Madness.


I remember my old escort with a cat converter and carburetor, I'd go out
and start it on a
cold day and head back in. Without someone to kick the choke off, I'd
have a glowing red
spot under that car when I went back out to drive off. Must have been why
the matrix
failed in that one.

Wes

A rich mixture and a catalytic converter, in a car that was running but not
moving, was a good device for starting grass fires. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:40:18 -0800, Winston
wrote:

On 2/6/2010 9:47 AM, wrote:

For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why...r-denso-pedal/

List of additional articles from the same outfit.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/tta...is-commentary/

I don't agree with all their conclusions, but they did a nice job.

Thanks Wayne,

That is *so* much more credible than the letter I got from Toyota telling
me to throw away my floor mats.

--Winston

The floor mat thing is separate, and no doubt it can be a real problem
in the wrong circumstances. Anybody who's had a soda bottle roll under
the brake pedal of any vehicle can attest to the possibilities, and I
bet it's even worse for those who, thanks to drive-thru fast food,
accumulate a lot of trash and an inability to see their own feet. The
next step is to mandate ignition-interlocked automatic laser scanning
of the footwell. :-)

For the cars subject to the mat recall, it sounds like they're going
to lop a bit off the corners of the accelerator pedal to leave more
room in case drivers want to store outsized stuff down there. The
clipped pedal might hurt driveability a bit for some, as will the
reduced friction on the modded CTS pedals. But I guess that's just the
tip of the iceberg when it comes to the cost of living in a litigious
society, particularly one where "beliefs" must be considered on an
equal basis with logic. On the upside, for anyone who has the factory
all-weather mats, Toyota is going to gift a new set. No explanation
for why they're including one for the passenger side as well. My
theory is that they want to head off a rash of complaints from people
who don't believe that the passenger mat couldn't be part of the
problem. :-)

Wayne

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:47:17 -0700, wrote:


For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why...r-denso-pedal/

List of additional articles from the same outfit.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/tta...is-commentary/

I don't agree with all their conclusions, but they did a nice job.

Wayne

Thanks for that! I have two Toyotas subject to the recall. After
reading this material, I shall try to have the suspect parts replaced
with those made by Denso even if I must pay for them. We tend to keep
our cars about forever, and that shim fix is a short-term bandaid
kludge.

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:22:53 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:47:17 -0700, wrote:


For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why...r-denso-pedal/

List of additional articles from the same outfit.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/tta...is-commentary/

I don't agree with all their conclusions, but they did a nice job.

Wayne

Thanks for that! I have two Toyotas subject to the recall. After
reading this material, I shall try to have the suspect parts replaced
with those made by Denso even if I must pay for them. We tend to keep
our cars about forever, and that shim fix is a short-term bandaid
kludge.


I'll dissagree with your conclusion, and explain why.

The sliding shoe friction element is a much better engineering
solution than the friction damped coil spring.
With the proper plastics used, the wear is extremely low, and the
friction is consistent. I believe the modified part will last.
Properly modified in production, the design will work properly long
term.

The Denso design has some serious design issues as well. The steel
spring is rubbing on the structural case of the assembly. Nothing
guarantees that spring will remain straight (pressing equally on both
sides) and if/when that spring wears through the plastic on one side
or the other the coils have a VERY high probability of catching very
firmly on the edge of the worn plastic, jamming the pedal.

The sliding shoe has a lower probability of jamming IF it is properly
restrained in the first place (which the modification does)

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:00:52 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:22:53 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:47:17 -0700, wrote:


For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why...r-denso-pedal/

List of additional articles from the same outfit.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/tta...is-commentary/

I don't agree with all their conclusions, but they did a nice job.

Wayne

Thanks for that! I have two Toyotas subject to the recall. After
reading this material, I shall try to have the suspect parts replaced
with those made by Denso even if I must pay for them.

Our Rav4 has the Denso type, and I'm wondering if it has a bit of
stiction. That combined with a fairly light spring and lots of engine
power has resulted in complaints that the car is hard to get off the
line smoothly.
http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopi...9074&view=next The touchy
launch tendency was most noticeable when the car was new, and in
gentle driving situations. I don't notice it anymore, but I'm not sure
if it got better or I just adapted by subconsciously feathering. The
complaints seem to have dropped off with newer models, perhaps because
they have the CTS style accelerator, but there might have been
firmware changes as well. Anyway, now that you see the breakdown of
the CTS unit, it's clear that any problem is going to be rare, and
should be preceded by stiff operation. If I had one I'd just check it
for smooth operation from time to time. Besides, the Denso might not
be compatible electrically.

We tend to keep
our cars about forever, and that shim fix is a short-term bandaid
kludge.

I think the whole thing is being driven mostly by hype, exactly as the
Audi situation was. Toyota has to respond to it though, and the
"precision cut reinforcement" approach is what they've decided,
probably after thousands of hours of haggling with consultants on
human behavior.

I'll dissagree with your conclusion, and explain why.

The sliding shoe friction element is a much better engineering
solution than the friction damped coil spring.

I agree. My guess is that the shoe was intended to be an improvement
over the Denso style.

With the proper plastics used, the wear is extremely low, and the
friction is consistent.

And perhaps less tendency for stiction versus the Denso.

I believe the modified part will last.
Properly modified in production, the design will work properly long
term.

The Denso design has some serious design issues as well. The steel
spring is rubbing on the structural case of the assembly. Nothing
guarantees that spring will remain straight (pressing equally on both
sides) and if/when that spring wears through the plastic on one side
or the other the coils have a VERY high probability of catching very
firmly on the edge of the worn plastic, jamming the pedal.

The sliding shoe has a lower probability of jamming IF it is properly
restrained in the first place (which the modification does)

It sounds like the dealers aren't allowed to customize the friction
though. Check out this complaint
http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24828, which seems
reasonable.

I feel sorry for Toyota. They're almost powerless to stop the tidal
wave of irrational thinking and conspiracy theories. It's probably
just a matter of time before someone brings up the grassy knoll. :-)

Wayne

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:00:52 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:22:53 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:47:17 -0700, wrote:


For anyone interested in the nuts and bolts of the Toyota accelerator
boggle, this is the best one-stop explanation I've seen so far. Clear
photos and descriptions. Also shows two different unit styles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why...r-denso-pedal/

List of additional articles from the same outfit.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/tta...is-commentary/

I don't agree with all their conclusions, but they did a nice job.

Wayne

Thanks for that! I have two Toyotas subject to the recall. After
reading this material, I shall try to have the suspect parts replaced
with those made by Denso even if I must pay for them. We tend to keep
our cars about forever, and that shim fix is a short-term bandaid
kludge.


I'll dissagree with your conclusion, and explain why.

The sliding shoe friction element is a much better engineering
solution than the friction damped coil spring.
With the proper plastics used, the wear is extremely low, and the
friction is consistent. I believe the modified part will last.
Properly modified in production, the design will work properly long
term.

The Denso design has some serious design issues as well. The steel
spring is rubbing on the structural case of the assembly. Nothing
guarantees that spring will remain straight (pressing equally on both
sides) and if/when that spring wears through the plastic on one side
or the other the coils have a VERY high probability of catching very
firmly on the edge of the worn plastic, jamming the pedal.

The sliding shoe has a lower probability of jamming IF it is properly
restrained in the first place (which the modification does)

Sounds reasonable. Perhaps I'll leave the engineering of my Toyotas
to Toyota. G

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:01:48 -0700, wrote:

I feel sorry for Toyota. They're almost powerless to stop the tidal
wave of irrational thinking and conspiracy theories. It's probably
just a matter of time before someone brings up the grassy knoll. :-)

The sharks smell the chum in the water.

I've never owned a toyota but many family members have. They make
solid product and don't have to scrimp on things like GM/FORD/CHRYSLER
do to meet legacy financial obligations.

I feel sorry for them too.

Wes

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:01:48 -0700, wrote:


Our Rav4 has the Denso type, and I'm wondering if it has a bit of
stiction. That combined with a fairly light spring and lots of engine
power has resulted in complaints that the car is hard to get off the
line smoothly.
http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopi...9074&view=next The touchy
launch tendency was most noticeable when the car was new, and in
gentle driving situations. I don't notice it anymore, but I'm not sure
if it got better or I just adapted by subconsciously feathering. The
complaints seem to have dropped off with newer models, perhaps because
they have the CTS style accelerator, but there might have been
firmware changes as well. Anyway, now that you see the breakdown of
the CTS unit, it's clear that any problem is going to be rare, and
should be preceded by stiff operation. If I had one I'd just check it
for smooth operation from time to time. Besides, the Denso might not
be compatible electrically.

I strongly doubt that the Denso is not electrically compatible but I
agree with your other observations and prognosis.

We do tend to adapt as drivers. It took me a couple of weeks to
transition from my Ford Contour V6 5-speed stick to the Corolla XLE
4-banger of very similar power and displacement with 5-speed stick.
The clutches were that different.

Then we traded Mary's Contour for a Camry, V-6, auto trannie. That
was to be her car. Didn't turn out to be so. She loves the agility
and responsiveness of the Corolla. She's a double-clutchin'
stick-shift gal. I must say I enjoy the nice ride of the Camry, and
with it's V6 engine and 6-speed auto trannie it manages not to bore
this old fart. It's a nice ride. I do enjoy driving the Corolla now
and then but I'll admit to enjoying the easy ride of the Camry. What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.

and then but I'll admit to enjoying the easy ride of the Camry. What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Don.

Try moving to Florida. You'll be a kid again.

Karl

On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 05:19:30 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



and then but I'll admit to enjoying the easy ride of the Camry. What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Don.

Try moving to Florida. You'll be a kid again.

Karl


Happy Birthday Ya old Fart!

Gunner

Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:47:10 -0700, the infamous "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
scrawled the following:

Wes wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

I have to wonder why go to electronic throttle bodies in the first place?
Was it to give
the PCM final control over driver inputs to satisfy emission regulations?


Wes

Throttle bodies were a way of coping with emission regulations in the face
of proliferating circuits, jets, vacuum lines, etc. in the electromechanical
carb systems they replaced. IIRC, the carb on my '76 VW Scirocco had around
six circuits. They just couldn't keep up. Electronic control of a single
injector was the salvation.

The body we produced was just the air regulating portion of the system. I agree going to
EFI solved a lot of problems meeting EPA polution regulations.

Is a mechanical throttle linkage that big a deal to deal with?

Yes. A single actuator replaces the cruise control drive, mechanical
dash pots (to contol butterfly closing speed), seperate idle speed
controls, and makes traction control systems that cut engine power much
simpler to implement.

Not to mention that routing mechanical throttle cables in some engines
is at times a non trivial engineering task.

Remember the old linkage throttle setups? If you broke a motor mount
and hit the gas, the engine would rock and lock the throttle WFO. What
fun that was! Remedy was safer back then because they didn't tie the
ignition key in with a steering wheel lock.

--
We don't receive wisdom; we must discover it for ourselves
after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us.
-- Marcel Proust

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 01:21:23 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:01:48 -0700, wrote:


Our Rav4 has the Denso type, and I'm wondering if it has a bit of
stiction. That combined with a fairly light spring and lots of engine
power has resulted in complaints that the car is hard to get off the
line smoothly.
http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopi...9074&view=next The touchy
launch tendency was most noticeable when the car was new, and in
gentle driving situations. I don't notice it anymore, but I'm not sure
if it got better or I just adapted by subconsciously feathering. The
complaints seem to have dropped off with newer models, perhaps because
they have the CTS style accelerator, but there might have been
firmware changes as well. Anyway, now that you see the breakdown of
the CTS unit, it's clear that any problem is going to be rare, and
should be preceded by stiff operation. If I had one I'd just check it
for smooth operation from time to time. Besides, the Denso might not
be compatible electrically.

I strongly doubt that the Denso is not electrically compatible but I
agree with your other observations and prognosis.

I'm on the fence. I don't really like either plastic model. I guess
we'll wait and see, once again.


We do tend to adapt as drivers. It took me a couple of weeks to
transition from my Ford Contour V6 5-speed stick to the Corolla XLE
4-banger of very similar power and displacement with 5-speed stick.
The clutches were that different.

Then we traded Mary's Contour for a Camry, V-6, auto trannie. That
was to be her car. Didn't turn out to be so. She loves the agility
and responsiveness of the Corolla. She's a double-clutchin'
stick-shift gal.

She wears the pants in the family, eh? duckin', bigtime


I must say I enjoy the nice ride of the Camry, and
with it's V6 engine and 6-speed auto trannie it manages not to bore
this old fart. It's a nice ride. I do enjoy driving the Corolla now
and then but I'll admit to enjoying the easy ride of the Camry.

They're very nice cars. I adore my stiff old Tundra, with its modern
cabin and wrap-around seats.


What the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.

Yeah, certified -eons- ago. HBD, big guy!

--
We don't receive wisdom; we must discover it for ourselves
after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us.
-- Marcel Proust

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 06:32:25 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Remember the old linkage throttle setups? If you broke a motor mount
and hit the gas, the engine would rock and lock the throttle WFO. What
fun that was!

Had that happen to me while crossing some traffic into a parking lot.
I stood on the brakes and shut off the ignition. '69 pontiac, with
column-mounted ignition. Not sure if it had a detent on the lock
position, but it almost certainly did. Now that I think about it, I
had a '64 pontiac that also suffered a broken mount, which resulted in
the distributor hitting the firewall and slightly bending the shaft,
which gave me fits trying to figure out why it was running poorly.

The GM combination ignition/steering column locks came out in 1969,
and the motor mount delamination issue affected some models up until
1970. http://www.autosafety.org/chevrolet-motor-mounts

Remedy was safer back then because they didn't tie the
ignition key in with a steering wheel lock.

That seems to be a common misconception. I can turn the key off safely
while underway on my '08 Toyota no problem, which I'm pretty sure that
one can do with every modern vehicle. Anyway, the recommended remedy
these days is to brake, and shift into neutral if necessary. Too many
people have no idea what their steering or brakes will feel like with
the engine shut off, so generally people shouldn't do that until
they're safely stopped.

Wayne

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:21:13 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:



Then we traded Mary's Contour for a Camry, V-6, auto trannie. That
was to be her car. Didn't turn out to be so. She loves the agility
and responsiveness of the Corolla. She's a double-clutchin'
stick-shift gal.

She wears the pants in the family, eh? duckin', bigtime

S'allright, she looks great in jeans!

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 08:23:08 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 06:32:25 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Remember the old linkage throttle setups? If you broke a motor mount
and hit the gas, the engine would rock and lock the throttle WFO. What
fun that was!

Had that happen to me while crossing some traffic into a parking lot.
I stood on the brakes and shut off the ignition. '69 pontiac, with
column-mounted ignition. Not sure if it had a detent on the lock
position, but it almost certainly did. Now that I think about it, I
had a '64 pontiac that also suffered a broken mount, which resulted in
the distributor hitting the firewall and slightly bending the shaft,
which gave me fits trying to figure out why it was running poorly.

The GM combination ignition/steering column locks came out in 1969,
and the motor mount delamination issue affected some models up until
1970. http://www.autosafety.org/chevrolet-motor-mounts

Remedy was safer back then because they didn't tie the
ignition key in with a steering wheel lock.

That seems to be a common misconception. I can turn the key off safely
while underway on my '08 Toyota no problem, which I'm pretty sure that
one can do with every modern vehicle. Anyway, the recommended remedy
these days is to brake, and shift into neutral if necessary. Too many
people have no idea what their steering or brakes will feel like with
the engine shut off, so generally people shouldn't do that until
they're safely stopped.

Wayne

My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
disconnects the engine from the drive train!

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:13:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:



My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
disconnects the engine from the drive train!


Cool, What will they think of next?

G

Mark Rand
RTFM

On 2/8/2010 10:13 AM, Don Foreman wrote:

(...)

My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
disconnects the engine from the drive train!

That is nifty!

Say Don -- I always wondered what that funny little lever was that
sticks out of the left side of the steering column.
I bumped it once and there was flashing lights and a ticking sound!

Scared the crap out of me.

--Winston

--
Support the blind and deaf. Hire a building contractor today!

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote:

Is a mechanical throttle linkage that big a deal to deal with?

Yes. A single actuator replaces the cruise control drive, mechanical
dash pots (to contol butterfly closing speed), seperate idle speed
controls, and makes traction control systems that cut engine power much
simpler to implement.

Not to mention that routing mechanical throttle cables in some engines
is at times a non trivial engineering task.


Okay. You have a few good points there.

Thanks,

Wes

Don Foreman wrote:

What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.

But you are young in spirit. That is what counts.

Happy Birthday!

Wes

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:13:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
disconnects the engine from the drive train!

My Austin Werstern has the dual function version of that - it also
acts as a slingshot acceleration device if you push it in while
driving down a steep hill. Worried Toyota drivers might not like the
fact that there's no gas pedal to blame for anything though. Nor would
they be happy with the ergonomics in general since it has a grand
total of 13 levers, 3 pedals, and 1 hopelessly overburdened drum
brake. Fortunately it's equipped with 2 devastatingly effective
emergency/parking devices as well. The only feature worse than the
main brake is the mileage. The other day it used 8 gallons to cover 8
miles which took 8 hours, including an 8 minute lunch break. At least
the math is easy work.

Wayne

Don Foreman wrote:

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:01:48 -0700, wrote:

Our Rav4 has the Denso type, and I'm wondering if it has a bit of
stiction. That combined with a fairly light spring and lots of engine
power has resulted in complaints that the car is hard to get off the
line smoothly.
http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopi...9074&view=next The touchy
launch tendency was most noticeable when the car was new, and in
gentle driving situations. I don't notice it anymore, but I'm not sure
if it got better or I just adapted by subconsciously feathering. The
complaints seem to have dropped off with newer models, perhaps because
they have the CTS style accelerator, but there might have been
firmware changes as well. Anyway, now that you see the breakdown of
the CTS unit, it's clear that any problem is going to be rare, and
should be preceded by stiff operation. If I had one I'd just check it
for smooth operation from time to time. Besides, the Denso might not
be compatible electrically.

I strongly doubt that the Denso is not electrically compatible but I
agree with your other observations and prognosis.

We do tend to adapt as drivers. It took me a couple of weeks to
transition from my Ford Contour V6 5-speed stick to the Corolla XLE
4-banger of very similar power and displacement with 5-speed stick.
The clutches were that different.

Then we traded Mary's Contour for a Camry, V-6, auto trannie. That
was to be her car. Didn't turn out to be so. She loves the agility
and responsiveness of the Corolla. She's a double-clutchin'
stick-shift gal. I must say I enjoy the nice ride of the Camry, and
with it's V6 engine and 6-speed auto trannie it manages not to bore
this old fart. It's a nice ride. I do enjoy driving the Corolla now
and then but I'll admit to enjoying the easy ride of the Camry. What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.


Old Fart? That was 18 years ago. Now you're just two years from
geezerhood! ;-)

BTW, happy birthday Don.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:08:58 -0800, Winston
wrote:

On 2/8/2010 10:13 AM, Don Foreman wrote:

(...)

My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
disconnects the engine from the drive train!

That is nifty!

Say Don -- I always wondered what that funny little lever was that
sticks out of the left side of the steering column.
I bumped it once and there was flashing lights and a ticking sound!

Scared the crap out of me.

--Winston

About a decade ago I went to pick up my first hearing aids. When
starting to drive back home, I noted a clacking sound. Oh swell, I'm
25 miles from home, what's busted? Noted that the clacking did not
seem related to vehicle speed (so not CV joints) nor to engine speed.
Hm? When I completed my turn onto the road out of the parking lot,
the clacking stopped. It was the turn signal. I'd had that car for 5
years and had never heard the turn signal.

On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 05:19:30 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



and then but I'll admit to enjoying the easy ride of the Camry. What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Don.

Try moving to Florida. You'll be a kid again.

Karl

I sure am getting tired of snow!

Don Foreman wrote:
On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 05:19:30 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


and then but I'll admit to enjoying the easy ride of the Camry. What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Don.

Try moving to Florida. You'll be a kid again.

Karl

I sure am getting tired of snow!



Five more weeks, Don.
according to Phil the Groundhog.



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

Don Foreman wrote:

What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.




And I'm woosie having problems facing 60.

--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

Pete Keillor wrote:

Yup, happy birthday! I was talking to Dad yesterday. He commented
that Mrs. Wollam he figured was maybe mid 60 ish had her 78th
birthday. I replied "Well damn, Dad, oldest sister turns 63 and I
turn 60 this year. You just had your 90th. How did you figure she
was in her 60's?" He said yeah, it was her hair dye. Of course, 77
might look pretty good when you're 90.

He also said he's been recruiting some of those 70 + youngsters to
play dominos. His domino crowd keeps getting thinned out, so they
need "new" blood.

Pete Keillor

70 NEVER looks good.
Even if we pass 80, it's the 24 year olds that look good.
The 70's are just what you can catch...



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:08:12 -0500, Wes wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.

But you are young in spirit. That is what counts.

Happy Birthday!

Thanks! I was thinkin' about those Toyota technicians working under
the dash on the accelerators all day. Man, I'm glad I don't have to
do that. My body hurts just thinkin' about it.

I am thinking about trying some IDPA match shooting. My old friend
and colleague Jack is too, so we may egg each other on. It looks like
it might be a lot of fun, and after watching some Youtube videos I
think I could try it without embarrassing myself too badly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAT4QPrHy0c

Shoot, I could do that, it looks like a lot of fun and a level of
physical activity that I could handle and enjoy. The guy in the video
certainly does display outstanding muzzle control as in recoil
management. As the HR direktorchik might say, I may have a growth
opportunity in that regard. I don't know what I look like when
shooting. I do tend to hit my targets but good recoil control helps to
deliver fire on target more rapidly and time is a factor in IDPA.
All I'd need to buy would be an inexpensive holster and a carry
garment or vest. I'm not real good at deliberate slowfire bullseye
shooting with handguns because when I focus on the front sight the
target is a vague blur to these old eyes, but I'm not half bad at
pointed rapid fire of respectable calibers at tactical-type targets at
tactical ranges of 25 yards and less. I need to work on longer ranges.
Jack is amazing at ranges out to 100 yards with handgun.

Don't judge the guy in the video for his clumsy performance in
changing magazines until you've tried it. I made that part of my
practice last summer. It's not difficult to get it quick and sure but
it definitely does take some practice with each particular handgun.

I'm pretty sure I'd be the oldest guy there and Jack would be the
second oldest.

Don Foreman writes:

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:08:58 -0800, Winston
wrote:

On 2/8/2010 10:13 AM, Don Foreman wrote:

(...)

My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
disconnects the engine from the drive train!

That is nifty!

Say Don -- I always wondered what that funny little lever was that
sticks out of the left side of the steering column.
I bumped it once and there was flashing lights and a ticking sound!

Scared the crap out of me.

--Winston

About a decade ago I went to pick up my first hearing aids. When
starting to drive back home, I noted a clacking sound. Oh swell, I'm
25 miles from home, what's busted? Noted that the clacking did not
seem related to vehicle speed (so not CV joints) nor to engine speed.
Hm? When I completed my turn onto the road out of the parking lot,
the clacking stopped. It was the turn signal. I'd had that car for 5
years and had never heard the turn signal.

Did you spend the entire five years with the turn signal blinking?
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 00:32:13 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.




And I'm woosie having problems facing 60.

The only thing that matters is what you are able to do vs what you
might want or aspire to do. Surprises do happen and they get more
likely with advancing age.

Perhaps it's time for you to sail on a voyage?

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:13:30 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 08:23:08 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 06:32:25 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Remember the old linkage throttle setups? If you broke a motor mount
and hit the gas, the engine would rock and lock the throttle WFO. What
fun that was!

Had that happen to me while crossing some traffic into a parking lot.
I stood on the brakes and shut off the ignition. '69 pontiac, with
column-mounted ignition. Not sure if it had a detent on the lock
position, but it almost certainly did. Now that I think about it, I
had a '64 pontiac that also suffered a broken mount, which resulted in
the distributor hitting the firewall and slightly bending the shaft,
which gave me fits trying to figure out why it was running poorly.

The GM combination ignition/steering column locks came out in 1969,
and the motor mount delamination issue affected some models up until
1970. http://www.autosafety.org/chevrolet-motor-mounts

Remedy was safer back then because they didn't tie the
ignition key in with a steering wheel lock.

That seems to be a common misconception. I can turn the key off safely
while underway on my '08 Toyota no problem, which I'm pretty sure that
one can do with every modern vehicle. Anyway, the recommended remedy
these days is to brake, and shift into neutral if necessary. Too many
people have no idea what their steering or brakes will feel like with
the engine shut off, so generally people shouldn't do that until
they're safely stopped.

Wayne

My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
disconnects the engine from the drive train!

In Japanese, that's know as a "Crutch", isn't it?

--
We don't receive wisdom; we must discover it for ourselves
after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us.
-- Marcel Proust

On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 00:06:14 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:08:58 -0800, Winston
wrote:

On 2/8/2010 10:13 AM, Don Foreman wrote:

(...)

My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
disconnects the engine from the drive train!

That is nifty!

Say Don -- I always wondered what that funny little lever was that
sticks out of the left side of the steering column.
I bumped it once and there was flashing lights and a ticking sound!

Scared the crap out of me.

--Winston

About a decade ago I went to pick up my first hearing aids. When
starting to drive back home, I noted a clacking sound. Oh swell, I'm
25 miles from home, what's busted? Noted that the clacking did not
seem related to vehicle speed (so not CV joints) nor to engine speed.
Hm? When I completed my turn onto the road out of the parking lot,
the clacking stopped. It was the turn signal. I'd had that car for 5
years and had never heard the turn signal.

Oh, crap, you're one of THOSE guys, who drives with their left turn
signal on all day, especially just before they turn right _just_ as we
try to pass you in the right lane?

Congrats on your newlyfound hearing, whenever that was.

--
We don't receive wisdom; we must discover it for ourselves
after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us.
-- Marcel Proust

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 11:50:42 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:21:13 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:



Then we traded Mary's Contour for a Camry, V-6, auto trannie. That
was to be her car. Didn't turn out to be so. She loves the agility
and responsiveness of the Corolla. She's a double-clutchin'
stick-shift gal.

She wears the pants in the family, eh? duckin', bigtime

S'allright, she looks great in jeans!

I love a properly proportioned (meaning smaller/less gut than me) gal
in tight jeans.

--
We don't receive wisdom; we must discover it for ourselves
after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us.
-- Marcel Proust

Don Foreman wrote:

My wife's Corolla has a neat safety feature. There's a footpedal on
the floor to the left of the brake pedal. Depressing this pedal
disconnects the engine from the drive train!

You hope it does... In many years of driving a manual transmission
vehicle, the only clutch problem I have had was failure to release when
the pedal was pressed. I assure you that this is a very irritating
condition.

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 11:50:42 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:21:13 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:



Then we traded Mary's Contour for a Camry, V-6, auto trannie. That
was to be her car. Didn't turn out to be so. She loves the agility
and responsiveness of the Corolla. She's a double-clutchin'
stick-shift gal.

She wears the pants in the family, eh? duckin', bigtime

S'allright, she looks great in jeans!

I love a properly proportioned (meaning smaller/less gut than me) gal
in tight jeans.


Well, _I_ tend to like the same, but I like 'em even more _out_ of the
tight jeans.

Incidentally, Larry, you're my All-Time Top Source of Stolen Quotes for
our break room Quote of the Week wall.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 00:32:13 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
What
the hell, today is my 68th birthday, I'm a certified oldfart.



And I'm woosie having problems facing 60.

The only thing that matters is what you are able to do vs what you
might want or aspire to do. Surprises do happen and they get more
likely with advancing age.

Perhaps it's time for you to sail on a voyage?


Or as my Dad used to say...

You know you are getting old when it takes all night
to do what you used to do all night...

--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/