On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:24:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Whether he chooses to claim
unlawful coercion is up to him, and whether he's right is up to a judge and
jury, not to the barstool warmers at the local VFW.


Ed, do I detect some disdain for VFW members?

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:24:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Whether he chooses to claim
unlawful coercion is up to him, and whether he's right is up to a judge
and
jury, not to the barstool warmers at the local VFW.


Ed, do I detect some disdain for VFW members?

What you detect is respect for the Constitution and the law. As one of the
commentators said in the Albany Times-Union, which first reported the story,
is that the service men who fought to defend the Constitution, who are now
taking the law into their own hands, are a disgrace.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:38:14 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:24:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Whether he chooses to claim
unlawful coercion is up to him, and whether he's right is up to a judge
and
jury, not to the barstool warmers at the local VFW.


Ed, do I detect some disdain for VFW members?

What you detect is respect for the Constitution and the law. As one of the
commentators said in the Albany Times-Union, which first reported the story,
is that the service men who fought to defend the Constitution, who are now
taking the law into their own hands, are a disgrace.

Knock knock.

Y'all are obviously having a swell time with this, pardon me for
interjecting please.

Ed, there may be an aspect of village and small-town folkways and
mores that you don't completely understand though you obvously know a
lot about letters of law.

I am also a strong supporter of law and due process, but I understand
that law and due process exist to deal with criminal behavior and
provide remedies for unresolved civil conflicts between strangers or
familiar adversaries. Neither appears to be the case here since any
matter of criminal behavior is either moot by stipulation or a rather
long reach.

Social peer pressure really does work in small towns and villages
populated with folks perhaps far less sophisticated than you.

You're arguing vehemently in support of your viewpoint. Nothing wrong
with that and I'm not sayin' you're wrong ... but if you quiet a bit
you may learn a bit.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:38:14 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:24:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Whether he chooses to claim
unlawful coercion is up to him, and whether he's right is up to a judge
and
jury, not to the barstool warmers at the local VFW.


Ed, do I detect some disdain for VFW members?

What you detect is respect for the Constitution and the law. As one of the
commentators said in the Albany Times-Union, which first reported the
story,
is that the service men who fought to defend the Constitution, who are now
taking the law into their own hands, are a disgrace.

Knock knock.

Y'all are obviously having a swell time with this, pardon me for
interjecting please.

Ed, there may be an aspect of village and small-town folkways and
mores that you don't completely understand though you obvously know a
lot about letters of law.

I am also a strong supporter of law and due process, but I understand
that law and due process exist to deal with criminal behavior and
provide remedies for unresolved civil conflicts between strangers or
familiar adversaries. Neither appears to be the case here since any
matter of criminal behavior is either moot by stipulation or a rather
long reach.

Social peer pressure really does work in small towns and villages
populated with folks perhaps far less sophisticated than you.

You're arguing vehemently in support of your viewpoint. Nothing wrong
with that and I'm not sayin' you're wrong ... but if you quiet a bit
you may learn a bit.

I hear you, Don, and your point is well-taken. However, I did live for four
years in a village that was then about the same size as Valley Falls is now,
and just as remote (Espy, PA), and I'm aware of what's going on here in
general.

In fact, I don't object to that culture, and I even favor many of the
out-of-court "settlements" that are reached with miscreant kids and
teenagers. I just don't like the smell of this one. We're going on sketchy
information but I've read and listened to everything I could find about it,
including the 17-minute VFW radio show in which Nick Normile (pronounced
"NOR-mile," I learned) was interviewed. Something here stinks, and it's good
evidence, I believe, for our Founders' belief in the rule of law over
"justice" administered by pick-up teams of vigilantes.

Speaking of Espy and miscreant teenagers, here's a story I'll try to keep
short. Our Spanish teacher, a short and squat guy named Benjamin B., who
wore hand-painted ties with hula dancers and deer jumping over logs and who
we knew as "Benny the Ball," got on the case of one of my closest friends
(Bob) when we were about 14. So Bob stuffed an M80 in Benny's mailbox and
blew it all to hell.

Bob was caught, and he was contrite. But Benny threatened to charge him, and
it was a federal rap because it was a mailbox. Bob, Benny, and Bob's dad
worked out a compensation. Benny also drove a schoolbus, and it was Bob's
job to ride his bike over to Benny's -- a few miles -- and put the blanket
on the bus engine and battery while it was still warm after school, so it
would start in the morning.

Then Bob had to arrive at Benny's every morning by 5:30 to start the engine
and warm the bus up so Benny's fat ass didn't get cold. g Benny's route
started at 6:00 AM. He covered half of the county.

Bob also raked Benny's leaves in the fall. And he mowed his lawn all summer.
It was 12 months of odd jobs. There probably were some other things, but I
don't remember the rest.

Of course, Bob was chagrined, and we kids razzed him for a while. But not
for long. Benny was appreciative of Bob's work and he let him know when he
did a good job. Bob made jokes about making a business out of starting buses
for fat-assed bus drivers. BTW, Bob is a surgeon now, with a fine family,
married to my old girlfriend.

Obviously a crime was committed and Benny actually put himself at some risk
by not reporting it. But it worked that time. Bob *did* learn a positive
lesson, and, after his initial reaction, wasn't humiliated by the affair. We
kids didn't even give him much of a hard time about it.

Contrast that with the action of dimwit Nick. My impression, after listening
to him in his interview and reading his quotes to several news sources, is
that he realizes he's not on solid ground. He's catching a bit of flak, even
in his town, but he's taking refuge behind the VFW, which seems to be
gushing all over him. Nick was almost too embarrassed to say what he wrote
on the sign that he hung around the kid's neck. It was "I'm an Asshole."
This is what Nick displayed before the kids gathered for a picnic across the
street (Nick says it was a Little League picnic, not the soccer team, as the
newspapers reported).

The hardest thing to figure is the kid. He sounds like he has some real
troubles, based on the hints and bits I could glean. He's "between 21 and
24," says Nick. Obviously, he's a serious butthead, or has some other
troubles, to do something so vile and vengeful, even when drunk. His uncle
brought him to Nick and said "do what you will" to him. The kid either has
no guts, or has some other family or emotional problem (why did the uncle
bring him in, rather than the dad? He does have one, according to Nick). I
really would like to know about those "choices" that Nick offered him,
because he keeps changing the story. It sounds like Nick is embarrassed, or
fearful about what could happen if the whole story got out.

Humiliating someone that seriously is a stupid thing, which is likely to
cause some kind of trouble down the line, either for the kid or for someone
else. People don't forget humiliations. They go into their
permanent-resentment file. Under the law, we don't do that anymore, because
we've learned better.

So, what lesson did the kid learn by being taped to a flagpole for six hours
and made to wear a sign that says "I'm an Asshole," while a children's event
was going on across the street, with their parents? I shudder over what's
going through the kid's head right now. If he's unbalanced, which sounds
possible, this could get ugly. Or they've just screwed the kid up further.

It's a crapshoot. Sometimes you get a smart and well-motivated guy dictating
terms, like Benny did, and sometimes you get a vengeful jerk who doesn't
know what he's doing. I don't blame Nick for being furious -- he has every
right to be. But the kind of humiliation he imposed, despite what Nick and
his VFW supporters are saying, wasn't about steering the kid straight. It
was about extracting revenge. That's small-town stuff in spades, which is
the dark side of small-town "folkways," Don. Sometimes the stuff that goes
on in those little burgs really sucks. My wife grew up in one, too, and both
of us regard those places with suspicion. Catty rumors, going along to get
along, covering things up...many of them are just social pestholes. I'm sure
I've been through Valley Falls because it's right on the edge of where I
used to fish for trout 40 years ago, before the acid rain wrecked the
fishing in the Adirondacks, but I don't remember it. So I'm not passing
judgment on the place. But I can guarantee you that if something like that
happened in my town, someone -- and I'd be among the first -- would cut that
kid free of the flagpole and read Nick Normile the riot act. And some cop
probably would threaten to put him in jail.

I live in a small town, but we believe in the rule of law.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 04:01:27 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:38:14 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:24:17 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Whether he chooses to claim
unlawful coercion is up to him, and whether he's right is up to a judge
and
jury, not to the barstool warmers at the local VFW.


Ed, do I detect some disdain for VFW members?

What you detect is respect for the Constitution and the law. As one of the
commentators said in the Albany Times-Union, which first reported the
story,
is that the service men who fought to defend the Constitution, who are now
taking the law into their own hands, are a disgrace.

Knock knock.

Y'all are obviously having a swell time with this, pardon me for
interjecting please.

Ed, there may be an aspect of village and small-town folkways and
mores that you don't completely understand though you obvously know a
lot about letters of law.

I am also a strong supporter of law and due process, but I understand
that law and due process exist to deal with criminal behavior and
provide remedies for unresolved civil conflicts between strangers or
familiar adversaries. Neither appears to be the case here since any
matter of criminal behavior is either moot by stipulation or a rather
long reach.

Social peer pressure really does work in small towns and villages
populated with folks perhaps far less sophisticated than you.

You're arguing vehemently in support of your viewpoint. Nothing wrong
with that and I'm not sayin' you're wrong ... but if you quiet a bit
you may learn a bit.

I hear you, Don, and your point is well-taken. However, I did live for four
years in a village that was then about the same size as Valley Falls is now,
and just as remote (Espy, PA), and I'm aware of what's going on here in
general.

In fact, I don't object to that culture, and I even favor many of the
out-of-court "settlements" that are reached with miscreant kids and
teenagers. I just don't like the smell of this one. We're going on sketchy
information but I've read and listened to everything I could find about it,
including the 17-minute VFW radio show in which Nick Normile (pronounced
"NOR-mile," I learned) was interviewed. Something here stinks, and it's good
evidence, I believe, for our Founders' belief in the rule of law over
"justice" administered by pick-up teams of vigilantes.

Speaking of Espy and miscreant teenagers, here's a story I'll try to keep
short. Our Spanish teacher, a short and squat guy named Benjamin B., who
wore hand-painted ties with hula dancers and deer jumping over logs and who
we knew as "Benny the Ball," got on the case of one of my closest friends
(Bob) when we were about 14. So Bob stuffed an M80 in Benny's mailbox and
blew it all to hell.

Bob was caught, and he was contrite. But Benny threatened to charge him, and
it was a federal rap because it was a mailbox. Bob, Benny, and Bob's dad
worked out a compensation. Benny also drove a schoolbus, and it was Bob's
job to ride his bike over to Benny's -- a few miles -- and put the blanket
on the bus engine and battery while it was still warm after school, so it
would start in the morning.

Then Bob had to arrive at Benny's every morning by 5:30 to start the engine
and warm the bus up so Benny's fat ass didn't get cold. g Benny's route
started at 6:00 AM. He covered half of the county.

Bob also raked Benny's leaves in the fall. And he mowed his lawn all summer.
It was 12 months of odd jobs. There probably were some other things, but I
don't remember the rest.

Of course, Bob was chagrined, and we kids razzed him for a while. But not
for long. Benny was appreciative of Bob's work and he let him know when he
did a good job. Bob made jokes about making a business out of starting buses
for fat-assed bus drivers. BTW, Bob is a surgeon now, with a fine family,
married to my old girlfriend.

Obviously a crime was committed and Benny actually put himself at some risk
by not reporting it. But it worked that time. Bob *did* learn a positive
lesson, and, after his initial reaction, wasn't humiliated by the affair. We
kids didn't even give him much of a hard time about it.

Contrast that with the action of dimwit Nick. My impression, after listening
to him in his interview and reading his quotes to several news sources, is
that he realizes he's not on solid ground. He's catching a bit of flak, even
in his town, but he's taking refuge behind the VFW, which seems to be
gushing all over him. Nick was almost too embarrassed to say what he wrote
on the sign that he hung around the kid's neck. It was "I'm an Asshole."
This is what Nick displayed before the kids gathered for a picnic across the
street (Nick says it was a Little League picnic, not the soccer team, as the
newspapers reported).

The hardest thing to figure is the kid. He sounds like he has some real
troubles, based on the hints and bits I could glean. He's "between 21 and
24," says Nick. Obviously, he's a serious butthead, or has some other
troubles, to do something so vile and vengeful, even when drunk. His uncle
brought him to Nick and said "do what you will" to him. The kid either has
no guts, or has some other family or emotional problem (why did the uncle
bring him in, rather than the dad? He does have one, according to Nick). I
really would like to know about those "choices" that Nick offered him,
because he keeps changing the story. It sounds like Nick is embarrassed, or
fearful about what could happen if the whole story got out.

Humiliating someone that seriously is a stupid thing, which is likely to
cause some kind of trouble down the line, either for the kid or for someone
else. People don't forget humiliations. They go into their
permanent-resentment file. Under the law, we don't do that anymore, because
we've learned better.

So, what lesson did the kid learn by being taped to a flagpole for six hours
and made to wear a sign that says "I'm an Asshole," while a children's event
was going on across the street, with their parents? I shudder over what's
going through the kid's head right now. If he's unbalanced, which sounds
possible, this could get ugly. Or they've just screwed the kid up further.

It's a crapshoot. Sometimes you get a smart and well-motivated guy dictating
terms, like Benny did, and sometimes you get a vengeful jerk who doesn't
know what he's doing. I don't blame Nick for being furious -- he has every
right to be. But the kind of humiliation he imposed, despite what Nick and
his VFW supporters are saying, wasn't about steering the kid straight. It
was about extracting revenge. That's small-town stuff in spades, which is
the dark side of small-town "folkways," Don. Sometimes the stuff that goes
on in those little burgs really sucks. My wife grew up in one, too, and both
of us regard those places with suspicion. Catty rumors, going along to get
along, covering things up...many of them are just social pestholes. I'm sure
I've been through Valley Falls because it's right on the edge of where I
used to fish for trout 40 years ago, before the acid rain wrecked the
fishing in the Adirondacks, but I don't remember it. So I'm not passing
judgment on the place. But I can guarantee you that if something like that
happened in my town, someone -- and I'd be among the first -- would cut that
kid free of the flagpole and read Nick Normile the riot act. And some cop
probably would threaten to put him in jail.

I live in a small town, but we believe in the rule of law.

I do recognize a difference between "paying a debt" vs humiliation.
Humilation of another is hardly ever a good idea. As you say, it
probably doesn't stop there.