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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Electricital question
FACTS:
I need to run about 190' from breaker box to my shop. I have a double pole breaker on a 200 (+ or -) v. that says 30 on each leg. In the shop, I will be running a SP175+ 220v MIG Lincoln welder rated at 22 amps, but that only when cranked fully open. Most of the stuff is half that. I will be running about four shop lights, radio, and a power tool or two at any given time. My electrician buddy has suggested IIRC a #6 wire. Does this sound adequate? Do I get the bundled wire, or use the separate strands? How much voltage drop on that far? Is #6 marginal, or should I slightly oversize? Mike (my electrician) will put the right thing, but I just wanted to start shopping and getting prices together. BTW, does anyone know what #6 copper solid strand goes for now? There would be just about a 200' run. I did get about 800' of 2.5" underground conduit for free, so that helped. Steve |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Electricital question
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 08:48:10 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote: FACTS: I need to run about 190' from breaker box to my shop. I have a double pole breaker on a 200 (+ or -) v. that says 30 on each leg. Yesterday you were warning us about the arrival of the antichrist. Will this new power supply be used to electrocute him like they frequently do in the movies? If so, then #6 is definitely too small. Or are you planning to curry his favor by welding his lawnmower or something? Wayne |
#4
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Electricital question
On Oct 1, 11:57*am, Ignoramus11206 ignoramus11...@NOSPAM.
11206.invalid wrote: ... AWG * * * Dia-mils *TPI * * * Dia-mm * *Circ-mils Ohms/Kft *Ft/Ohm * *Ft/Lb * * Ohms/Lb * Lb/Kft * *NormAmps *MaxAmps 12 * * * * 80.807 * *12.375 * *2.0525 * *6529.8 * *1.5883 * *629.61 * *50.593 * *0.0804 * *19.765 * *13..060 * *14.892 Some of your table is good, but look closer at the normal and max amp values. jsw |
#5
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Electricital question
On 2009-10-01, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Oct 1, 11:57?am, Ignoramus11206 ignoramus11...@NOSPAM. 11206.invalid wrote: ... AWG ? ? ? Dia-mils ?TPI ? ? ? Dia-mm ? ?Circ-mils Ohms/Kft ?Ft/Ohm ? ?Ft/Lb ? ? Ohms/Lb ? Lb/Kft ? ?NormAmps ?MaxAmps 12 ? ? ? ? 80.807 ? ?12.375 ? ?2.0525 ? ?6529.8 ? ?1.5883 ? ?629.61 ? ?50.593 ? ?0.0804 ? ?19.765 ? ?13.060 ? ?14.892 Some of your table is good, but look closer at the normal and max amp values. Those could be for long range power transmission |
#6
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Electricital question
The normal and max amps are strictly a function of the heat dissipation
and the resulting temperature of the insulation. Higher temp insulation can take higher amperage. You still need to do the voltage drop calcs to see if that is the limiting factor. Jim Wilkins wrote: On Oct 1, 11:57 am, Ignoramus11206 ignoramus11...@NOSPAM. 11206.invalid wrote: ... AWG Dia-mils TPI Dia-mm Circ-mils Ohms/Kft Ft/Ohm Ft/Lb Ohms/Lb Lb/Kft NormAmps MaxAmps 12 80.807 12.375 2.0525 6529.8 1.5883 629.61 50.593 0.0804 19.765 13.060 14.892 Some of your table is good, but look closer at the normal and max amp values. jsw |
#7
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Electricital question
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 10:57:14 -0500, Ignoramus11206 wrote:
On 2009-10-01, SteveB wrote: .... Mike (my electrician) will put the right thing, but I just wanted to start shopping and getting prices together. BTW, does anyone know what #6 copper solid strand goes for now? There would be just about a 200' run. The table below shows ohms/1000 ft, so you need to divide that number by 1000 to get ohms per foot. These ampacity tables never say what the conditions are for "Normal Amps" and "Max Amps". Romex in air? Raw wires in conduit? Buried? Transformer winding? /whine From the other responses, it's sounding like you're looking at 2 AWG. Good Luck! Rich |
#8
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Electricital question
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 08:48:10 -0600, SteveB wrote:
I need to run about 190' from breaker box to my shop. I have a double pole breaker on a 200 (+ or -) v. that says 30 on each leg. In the shop, I will be running a SP175+ 220v MIG Lincoln welder rated at 22 amps, but that only when cranked fully open. Most of the stuff is half that. I will be running about four shop lights, radio, and a power tool or two at any given time. My electrician buddy has suggested IIRC a #6 wire. Does this sound adequate? Do I get the bundled wire, or use the separate strands? How much voltage drop on that far? Is #6 marginal, or should I slightly oversize? In NEC table 310-16, #6 copper wire is rated at ampacity of 55, 65, or 75 amps, depending on its type of insulation, so the wire is heavy enough to meet national code requirements when using a 30A breaker. As Igor or someone else mentioned, you could reduce heavy-load (100A) voltage drops by 5 to 10 volts by going to #4 or #2 wire. What I think would make sense is 4-conductor aluminum wire (3 #2 Al, insulated, and 1 #4 Al ground wire), attached to a 100A breaker in an entrance service panel. #2 Al ampacity is slightly larger than #4 Cu ampacity, ie 75, 90, or 100 for the #2 Al and 70, 85, or 95 for the #4 Cu, again depending on type of insulation. #2 Al should cost somewhat less than #4 Cu. (Also see ebay # 180398856402, appears to be 300' 3-cdr #0000 Al, around $1.58/ft when you count shipping.) Bundled wire would be easier to pull but might cost a little more, and with heavy current it heats up a little more than not-bundled wire. Mike (my electrician) will put the right thing, but I just wanted to start shopping and getting prices together. BTW, does anyone know what #6 copper solid strand goes for now? There would be just about a 200' run. I think ebay prices (about $2/foot for #6-3+ground; search for romex), even with shipping, will beat prices at (eg) Lowes or Home Depot, but haven't been able to make either of http://www.lowes.com or http://www.homedepot.com reveal anything about wire heavier than #8, so that's just a guess. (When I bought about 90' of 3-cdr #2 Al and 1-cdr #4 Al at Lowes a few years ago, the price worked out better than ebay, due to sales, so it's worth going and looking.) I did get about 800' of 2.5" underground conduit for free, so that helped. Use sweeps (big-radius ells) rather than the usual ells on turns, and it might make sense to pull the wire through any long straight sections and then slide the corner pieces near the ends onto the wire, unless you like using a half-ton winch to pull the wire. -- jiw |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Electricital question
James Waldby wrote in
: On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 08:48:10 -0600, SteveB wrote: I need to run about 190' from breaker box to my shop. I have a double pole breaker on a 200 (+ or -) v. that says 30 on each leg. In the shop, I will be running a SP175+ 220v MIG Lincoln welder rated at 22 amps, but that only when cranked fully open. Most of the stuff is half that. I will be running about four shop lights, radio, and a power tool or two at any given time. My electrician buddy has suggested IIRC a #6 wire. #6 copper is perfect for 30 or 40 amps at that distance. Go any bigger and you will likely have problems fitting it in the breaker you have. Does this sound adequate? Adequate I guess for what you have mentioned - so far. Personally I like to size home shops for 60 amps. That allows a buzz box welder or 5hp compressor motor to be used without trouble. There's nothing like finding a great deal on a tool and realizing you don't have enough juice to run it. #2 aluminum would be good for 60 amps at that distance, probably similar price to the #6 copper. Do I get the bundled wire, or use the separate strands? How much voltage drop on that far? Is #6 marginal, or should I slightly oversize? Use underground rated cable unles you are prepared to deal with pull boxes and conduit bending and assorted stuff to pipe everything from panel to panel. Cable lets you run through the house and bend easily as many times as you need to get into the conduit just before it goes underground. My charts show less than 3% drop on #6cu at 30 amps for that distance, that's pretty good. (Also see ebay # 180398856402, appears to be 300' 3-cdr #0000 Al, around $1.58/ft when you count shipping.) Too big to be worth the effort, at nearly any price. Bundled wire would be easier to pull but might cost a little more, and with heavy current it heats up a little more than not-bundled wire. Cable is physically harder to pull - more weight and less flexible. Heat is irrelevent when the wire is upsized for distance like this and burried and never going to see continuous full load. Mike (my electrician) will put the right thing, snip Get him to tell you what cable or wire to shop for. He will be familiar with your house and be best to advise which method to choose. I think ebay prices (about $2/foot for #6-3+ground; search for romex), even with shipping,snip Romex isn't suitable for underground. Even if it is in conduit it needs to be a wet location rated cable or conductor to be in the ground. |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Electricital question
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 04:17:58 +0000, Charles U Farley wrote:
James Waldby wrote ... I think ebay prices (about $2/foot for #6-3+ground; search for romex), even with shipping,snip Romex isn't suitable for underground. Even if it is in conduit it needs to be a wet location rated cable or conductor to be in the ground. I realize that, and only mentioned romex as a tag to find the $2/foot auction for a representative price point. Unfortunately, insulation type letters like RHW, THW, THHW, and XHHW don't seem to be particularly useful for ebay searches. -- jiw |
#11
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Electricital question
Charles U Farley wrote: Does this sound adequate? Adequate I guess for what you have mentioned - so far. Personally I like to size home shops for 60 amps. That allows a buzz box welder or 5hp compressor motor to be used without trouble. There's nothing like finding a great deal on a tool and realizing you don't have enough juice to run it. #2 aluminum would be good for 60 amps at that distance, probably similar price to the #6 copper. 60A may be plenty for a home shop woodworker, but is pretty feeble for a home shop metalworker. I ran a 125A sub panel for my shop, and can readily push it to near capacity (intermittent) if I'm doing heavy welding + shop lighting + shop A/C. |
#12
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Electricital question
Forgot to include some pertinent information:
The most that will be used will PROBABLY be a Lincoln 175SP+, some lights, and hand tools, one at a time. And then in the winter, a 1,000-3,000 watt heater. I have a Lincoln SA 200 for any heavy welding, so doubt I'd ever hook up a buzz box. However, later, who knows? Steve |
#13
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Electricital question
That #6 will have ~.5 ohms impedance /1000 ft or ~ .1 ohms for your 200' [Assumes single conductors) at 35 amps (more than you should ever draw with your breakers) you have 3.5 V drop on each leg, or 7 V total. If your Voltage is already down to 200V, that would give you only 193V at that load. "SteveB" wrote: FACTS: I need to run about 190' from breaker box to my shop. I have a double pole breaker on a 200 (+ or -) v. that says 30 on each leg. In the shop, I will be running a SP175+ 220v MIG Lincoln welder rated at 22 amps, but that only when cranked fully open. Most of the stuff is half that. I will be running about four shop lights, radio, and a power tool or two at any given time. My electrician buddy has suggested IIRC a #6 wire. Does this sound adequate? Do I get the bundled wire, or use the separate strands? How much voltage drop on that far? Is #6 marginal, or should I slightly oversize? Mike (my electrician) will put the right thing, but I just wanted to start shopping and getting prices together. BTW, does anyone know what #6 copper solid strand goes for now? There would be just about a 200' run. I did get about 800' of 2.5" underground conduit for free, so that helped. Steve jk |
#14
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Electricital question
The handbook says for a 2 % voltage drop over 200 ft. to use #4. So your electrician is about right
with his suggestion of #6. Bob Swinney "SteveB" wrote in message ... FACTS: I need to run about 190' from breaker box to my shop. I have a double pole breaker on a 200 (+ or -) v. that says 30 on each leg. In the shop, I will be running a SP175+ 220v MIG Lincoln welder rated at 22 amps, but that only when cranked fully open. Most of the stuff is half that. I will be running about four shop lights, radio, and a power tool or two at any given time. My electrician buddy has suggested IIRC a #6 wire. Does this sound adequate? Do I get the bundled wire, or use the separate strands? How much voltage drop on that far? Is #6 marginal, or should I slightly oversize? Mike (my electrician) will put the right thing, but I just wanted to start shopping and getting prices together. BTW, does anyone know what #6 copper solid strand goes for now? There would be just about a 200' run. I did get about 800' of 2.5" underground conduit for free, so that helped. Steve |
#15
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Electricital question
I'd use stranded wire if you can get it. Likely that is all you can get.
My charts show for #6 it has a cir. mil of 26250 and a resistance of .395 ohms / 1000'. E=I*R - 30a * .395 * 190/1000 = 2.2v or so at 30 amps. for #6 at 30 amps 190 feet. Now for the facts - double it - since you have the hot wire to and back - even you run 220 - effective the same. So for 30 amps you get 5v drop. for 22 - 22/30 * 5v ~ 3.5v That assumes 68 degrees - warmer will be slightly higher voltage drop. Martin SteveB wrote: FACTS: I need to run about 190' from breaker box to my shop. I have a double pole breaker on a 200 (+ or -) v. that says 30 on each leg. In the shop, I will be running a SP175+ 220v MIG Lincoln welder rated at 22 amps, but that only when cranked fully open. Most of the stuff is half that. I will be running about four shop lights, radio, and a power tool or two at any given time. My electrician buddy has suggested IIRC a #6 wire. Does this sound adequate? Do I get the bundled wire, or use the separate strands? How much voltage drop on that far? Is #6 marginal, or should I slightly oversize? Mike (my electrician) will put the right thing, but I just wanted to start shopping and getting prices together. BTW, does anyone know what #6 copper solid strand goes for now? There would be just about a 200' run. I did get about 800' of 2.5" underground conduit for free, so that helped. Steve |
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