Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo. http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. The
problem with my first attempt is just that. It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.
Andy

andy wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo.
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG The tube
is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. It is the type
used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. The
problem with my first attempt is just that. It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.
Andy






A die and a hydraulic press?

Those terminations are, usually, known as "swaged" in this area...

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:59:30 -0700 (PDT), andy
wrote:

Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo. http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. The
problem with my first attempt is just that. It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.
Andy

Back when I was doing that sort of thing for a living, if appearance
was important, I would have plugged or capped the tube and welded on a
tab.

Not easy to see, but this is an example...
http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmon...ilusPulpit.jpg

--
Ned Simmons

andy wrote:
Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo.
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. The
problem with my first attempt is just that. It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.

You might try making a simple wooden mandrel to fit inside of the tube and
then form it.


--
John R. Carroll

Top posted because the newsreader didn't insert the "." dohickys below and
I'm lazy...

I'd guess you would want to use a bullet shaped mandrel inside the tube to
kep it from collapsing near the crush site and then use the vice or a press
with a "C" shaped crush area...

To do it high volume, I bet they use a mandrel and a press / punch to shape
the end all at the same time.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill

V8013-R






"andy" wrote in message
...
Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo.
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. The
problem with my first attempt is just that. It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.
Andy

On Sep 21, 2:21*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:59:30 -0700 (PDT), andy





wrote:
Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo. *http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. *It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. *The
problem with my first attempt is just that. *It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? *Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.
Andy

Back when I was doing that sort of thing for a living, if appearance
was important, I would have plugged or capped the tube and welded on a
tab.

Not easy to see, but this is an example...http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmon...ilusPulpit.jpg

--
Ned Simmons- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How do you plug the tube? do you buy a bag of pre-made plugs/caps and
weld them on?
With regards to your photo, are you referring to the spot where the
loop around the "deck" of the pulpit meets the hull of the boat? What
if the tab I am welding on is parallel to the axis of the tube? Any
basic tips to working with this stuff would be appreciated. Although
I understand if you don't want to "give away the store".

One tip given thus far by my welding instructor was to keep the arc
real short and wire brush the welds when hot to keep it looking
"pretty".

This is academic at this point because I solved my problem with a
chunk of white oak and some through bolts. I am new to the metal
working game, and have a big bow rail assembly that I pulled out of a
dumpster. It will be useful for something!

Beautiful work on the pulpit by the way.

Regards,
Andy
Lynn,MA

On Sep 21, 3:01*pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
andy wrote:
Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo.
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. *It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. *The
problem with my first attempt is just that. *It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? *Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.

You might try making a simple wooden mandrel to fit inside of the tube and
then form it.

--
John R. Carroll- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The tube walls may be a tad thick for this approach. The tube walls
are about the thickness of a US penny. (no caliper nearby)
By "forming it" I assume you mean to hammer it? I think the wood
mandrel would turn to splinters with this approach. Maybe I could
grind a half a ball shape on the end of a steel rod and use that for a
mandrel.

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:59:30 -0700 (PDT), andy
wrote:

Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo. http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

Probably 316 as 308 is less corrosion resistant.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. The
problem with my first attempt is just that. It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.
Andy

Generally the guys making one off installations on boats don't do it
this way as the flattened end is not as resistant to bending as the
parent tube and most clients think it looks "cheap".

Again generally, if a flattened end is required, like the life line
attachments another poster showed, a cap is welded on the end of the
tube - which can be either a spherical end cap or just a flat piece of
plate - and a flat piece shaped and either welded to the end cap or
the entire end, after capping, is slotted and the end inserted and
welded all round.

Welds need to either be "passivated" with acid or polished to a bright
finish or they will discolor and "rust".

Most custom rails on yachts are welded with a very heavy bead and then
the bead is ground to a nice fillet and polished.

In high volume production, that is done in a 'FTP' die:
Flatten/Trim/Pierce in one hit or two hits in a progressive die. The
distinctive diamond shape has to be in the female portions of the 2
piece die, hit hard with the press to iron the shape in place. It is
considerably stronger than just a flat stamp crosswise to the tube.
Stainless is just another issue: finding stock that will take the wall
to wall flatten without cracking at the edges, not to mention the
residual stresses will let it move around over a couple of weeks.

To make it as a hobbyist I'd take a pair of 1" steel blocks, drill a
pair of bolt holes to align things, use a hand grinder to remove the
diamond shape you want. A standard 12 ton shop press should be enough to
iron it flat. BTW: the shape does not have to be the diamond, it could
be a nicely rounded version.


andy wrote:
Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo. http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. The
problem with my first attempt is just that. It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.
Andy

What's that Lassie? You say that andy fell down the old
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:59:30 -0700 (PDT):

Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo. http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. The
problem with my first attempt is just that. It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.

take a look he http://www.desertdomes.com/tips.html step six.

Can you tell us what you are making?

--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:14:15 -0700 (PDT), andy
wrote:

On Sep 21, 2:21*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:59:30 -0700 (PDT), andy





wrote:
Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo. *http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. *It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. *The
problem with my first attempt is just that. *It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? *Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.
Andy

Back when I was doing that sort of thing for a living, if appearance
was important, I would have plugged or capped the tube and welded on a
tab.

Not easy to see, but this is an example...http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmon...ilusPulpit.jpg

--
Ned Simmons- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How do you plug the tube? do you buy a bag of pre-made plugs/caps and
weld them on?

I usually turned a piece of round stock to a snug fit in the tube and
parted off 1/4"-3/8" thick discs that would stay put when inserted in
the tube so that you didn't need 3 hands to get them tacked.

With regards to your photo, are you referring to the spot where the
loop around the "deck" of the pulpit meets the hull of the boat? What
if the tab I am welding on is parallel to the axis of the tube?

The lifelines are attached to tabs that are oriented like you're
asking about.

Any
basic tips to working with this stuff would be appreciated. Although
I understand if you don't want to "give away the store".

No secrets here. I haven't done that work for 25 years and sold my
last interest in the business I started at least 15 years ago.


One tip given thus far by my welding instructor was to keep the arc
real short and wire brush the welds when hot to keep it looking
"pretty".

Depends on how pretty you want. We polished all the welds with a very
stiff spiral sewn buff mounted on an air tool (Dynabrade Dynastraight)
and SS compound. The cleaning goes faster if you minimize oxidation
with a short arc, gas lens, and minimal tungsten stickout, but with
the proper tools even relatively heavy oxide can be buffed away.


This is academic at this point because I solved my problem with a
chunk of white oak and some through bolts. I am new to the metal
working game, and have a big bow rail assembly that I pulled out of a
dumpster. It will be useful for something!

Beautiful work on the pulpit by the way.

Thanks, I wasn't half bad back when I could still see a small TIG bead
without reading glasses *and* cheaters. g

--
Ned Simmons

andy wrote:
On Sep 21, 3:01 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
andy wrote:

The tube walls may be a tad thick for this approach. The tube walls
are about the thickness of a US penny. (no caliper nearby)
By "forming it" I assume you mean to hammer it?

No, you could make a set of vice jaws that had the shape of the end milled
into them.


I think the wood
mandrel would turn to splinters with this approach. Maybe I could
grind a half a ball shape on the end of a steel rod and use that for a
mandrel.

That was what I meant. The mandrel would be the shape of the inside of your
finished part.


--
John R. Carroll

On Sep 21, 9:22*pm, (dan) wrote:
What's that Lassie? You say that andy fell down the old
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:59:30 -0700 (PDT):

Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo. *http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. *It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. *The
problem with my first attempt is just that. *It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? *Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.

take a look hehttp://www.desertdomes.com/tips.htmlstep six.

Can you tell us what you are making?

--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

Thanks for the link. Judging by that site, I see that I am in
hydraulic press territory.
As far as my application, I have already "skinned that cat" with some
wood and bolts.
I was trying to make a strut to stiffen the cockpit floor of a wood
lobsterboat. The strut runs from the bottom of a cockpit stringer down
to a floor timber. There is a big fiberglass muffler in the way to
complicate things.

You will have to keep an eye out for us in Salem Harbor next summer.
Thanks,
Andy

On Sep 21, 9:26*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:14:15 -0700 (PDT), andy





wrote:
On Sep 21, 2:21*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:59:30 -0700 (PDT), andy

wrote:
Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo. *http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. *It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. *The
problem with my first attempt is just that. *It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? *Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.
Andy

Back when I was doing that sort of thing for a living, if appearance
was important, I would have plugged or capped the tube and welded on a
tab.

Not easy to see, but this is an example...http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmon...ilusPulpit.jpg

--
Ned Simmons- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How do you plug the tube? *do you buy a bag of pre-made plugs/caps and
weld them on?

I usually turned a piece of round stock to a snug fit in the tube and
parted off 1/4"-3/8" thick discs that would stay put when inserted in
the tube so that you didn't need 3 hands to get them tacked.

With regards to your photo, are you referring to the spot where the
loop around the "deck" of the pulpit meets the hull of the boat? *What
if the tab I am welding on is parallel to the axis of the tube?

The lifelines are attached to tabs that are oriented like you're
asking about.

Any
basic tips to working with this stuff would be appreciated. *Although
I understand if you don't want to "give away the store".

No secrets here. I haven't done that work for 25 years and sold my
last interest in the business I started at least 15 years ago.



One tip given thus far by my welding instructor was to keep the arc
real short and wire brush the welds when hot to keep it looking
"pretty".

Depends on how pretty you want. We polished all the welds with a very
stiff spiral sewn buff mounted on an air tool (Dynabrade Dynastraight)
and SS compound. The cleaning goes faster if you minimize oxidation
with a short arc, gas lens, and minimal tungsten stickout, but with
the proper tools even relatively heavy oxide can be buffed away.



This is academic at this point because I solved my problem with a
chunk of white oak and some through bolts. I am new to the metal
working game, and have a big bow rail assembly that I pulled out of a
dumpster. It will be useful for something!

Beautiful work on the pulpit by the way.

Thanks, I wasn't half bad back when I could still see a small TIG bead
without reading glasses *and* cheaters. g

--
Ned Simmons- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the info. At some point I'll experiment with the buffing
gear.

"andy" wrote in message
...
On Sep 21, 9:22 pm, (dan) wrote:
What's that Lassie? You say that andy fell down the old
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:59:30 -0700 (PDT):

Hi folks.
I am trying to form a flat end on a stainless steel tube as seen in
the attached photo.
http://metalworking.com/Dropbox/stai..._end_notes.JPG
The tube is 1” OD, and is an unknown alloy maybe 308 or 316?. It is
the type used to make stainless steel hand rails on boats if that
helps.

My first attempt I just crushed the end of the tube in a vice. The
problem with my first attempt is just that. It looks like it was just
crushed in a vice.

Does anyone know how this is neatly done? Maybe a simple die I can
make and use a press? Some heat and two step vice job?

I look forward to your suggestions.

take a look hehttp://www.desertdomes.com/tips.htmlstep six.

Can you tell us what you are making?

--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

Thanks for the link. Judging by that site, I see that I am in
hydraulic press territory.
As far as my application, I have already "skinned that cat" with some
wood and bolts.
I was trying to make a strut to stiffen the cockpit floor of a wood
lobsterboat. The strut runs from the bottom of a cockpit stringer down
to a floor timber. There is a big fiberglass muffler in the way to
complicate things.

You will have to keep an eye out for us in Salem Harbor next summer.
Thanks,
Andy



i was gonna say, to the suggestions to make a mandrel, wondering if the
application required swaged ends on both ends of the tube, and say for
instance it's too much hassle to swage two pieces of tube and weld them
together. seems to me mandrel is out. "squishing" them as per the link
above seems easier.
also, years ago i rebuilt a ultralight. i heard originally they used wood
plugs but stopped using wood because there was a possibility or maybe even a
tendency if the wood gets wet (or maybe even only just seasonal fluctuations
in humidity) the wood could swell and rupture the (aluminum) tube. maybe
it's permissible in a some applications but in an aircraft, not good. they
use high density polyethylene now for plugs in ultralights.


b.w.

Mandrel is not necessary if the jaw shape is correct. But the jaws need
to close relatively parallel.

John R. Carroll wrote:
andy wrote:
On Sep 21, 3:01 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
andy wrote:
The tube walls may be a tad thick for this approach. The tube walls
are about the thickness of a US penny. (no caliper nearby)
By "forming it" I assume you mean to hammer it?

No, you could make a set of vice jaws that had the shape of the end milled
into them.


I think the wood
mandrel would turn to splinters with this approach. Maybe I could
grind a half a ball shape on the end of a steel rod and use that for a
mandrel.

That was what I meant. The mandrel would be the shape of the inside of your
finished part.