My Triumph consistenly runs warm and I would like it to flow a bit
more water. The vanes on the impeller are minisule compared to other
water pumps with similiar displacement engines. In the image the
2.0 / 2.5L engine displacement Triumph water pump with impeller is on
the left and the proposed donor impeller (from an Isuzu 2.3L) is on
the right. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...g/P1010003.jpg

How much press is needed for a cast iron or cast steel impeller? My
machinery handbook gives a bit of a overview but no good suggestions.
I am thingking about 0.001 to 0.0013. Your thoughts?

In trying to dismantle the two pumps, there is inadequate room to get
a bearing seperator between the impeller and the pump housing on
either pump. My thought is to remove the pressed on fan mounting
flange and then press the shaft (with impeller attached) out of the
pump housing. I got the pressed on fan mounting flange off of the
Isuzu water pump but did not succeeded in pressing the shaft out of
the housing (watching the deflection of the press and the increasing
effort on the jack hande, I stopped adding force). I have a "30 Ton"
Harbor Freight A-frame press that I suspect is capable of about 20T.
Does my proposal in dismantling sound wrong? I can cut the Isuzu pump
body apart if needed.

On Jul 27, 9:38*am, wrote:
My Triumph consistenly runs warm and I would like it to flow a bit
more water. *The vanes on the impeller are minisule compared to other
water pumps with similiar displacement engines. *In the image the
2.0 / 2.5L engine displacement Triumph water pump with impeller is on
the left and the proposed donor impeller (from an Isuzu 2.3L) is on
the right.http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...g/P1010003.jpg

How much press is needed for a cast iron or cast steel impeller? *My
machinery handbook gives a bit of a overview but no good suggestions.
I am thingking about 0.001 to 0.0013. *Your thoughts?

In trying to dismantle the two pumps, there is inadequate room to get
a bearing seperator between the impeller and the pump housing on
either pump. *My thought is to remove the pressed on fan mounting
flange and then press the shaft (with impeller attached) out of the
pump housing. *I got the pressed on fan mounting flange off of the
Isuzu water pump but did not succeeded in pressing the shaft out of
the housing (watching the deflection of the press and the increasing
effort on the jack hande, I stopped adding force). *I have a "30 Ton"
Harbor Freight A-frame press that I suspect is capable of about 20T.
Does my proposal in dismantling sound wrong? *I can cut the Isuzu pump
body apart if needed.

From your post, I assume you have already done the thermostat thing
and looked for a water distribution channel in the engine and/or the
radiator that may be plugged. One interesting thing I discovered long
ago is that the faster the water flows through a system, the less heat
transfer that occurs.

An electric fan in front of the radiator may be a better solution.

Paul

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT), KD7HB
wrote:
One interesting thing I discovered long
ago is that the faster the water flows through a system, the less heat
transfer that occurs.

So maximum cooling occurs at zero flow? g

--
Ned Simmons

On Jul 27, 10:14*am, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT), KD7HB
wrote:

One interesting thing I discovered long
ago is that the faster the water flows through a system, the less heat
transfer that occurs.

So maximum cooling occurs at zero flow? g

--
Ned Simmons

No, maximum heat transfer occurs. You then have to get that hot water
out to cool it and recycle it back to the engine. Look at the top/
bottom of a radiator. Many small, restricted openings to the cooling
tubes.

Been too long since the college physics class.

Paul

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:25:38 -0700 (PDT), KD7HB
wrote:

On Jul 27, 10:14*am, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT), KD7HB
wrote:

One interesting thing I discovered long
ago is that the faster the water flows through a system, the less heat
transfer that occurs.

So maximum cooling occurs at zero flow? g

--
Ned Simmons

No, maximum heat transfer occurs.

I can imagine there may be specific regimes where increasing flow
reduces heat transfer, but I don't believe that it's true in general.

You then have to get that hot water
out to cool it and recycle it back to the engine. Look at the top/
bottom of a radiator. Many small, restricted openings to the cooling
tubes.

Been too long since the college physics class.

It's been 35+ years for me since I dealt with Messrs. Reynolds,
Prandtl and Nusselt, and 34 years since I forgot it all.

--
Ned Simmons

wrote in message
...
My Triumph consistenly runs warm and I would like it to flow a bit
more water.

Triumph car or motorcycle? If cycle I didn't know thay had any liquid
cooled engines.

Anyway, you might want to ask around some Triumph centric forums on the web
before going further. It could be it needs to run warmer than you think to
get the best power and emmissions.

Many time on an old truck or old car I was able to get them running cooler,
by pressure flushing the radiator, and then back blasting the bugs out from
between the fins.

My dad made a pressure flush adaptor that I have since duplicated that does
a pretty good job. It has water and air inputs with ball valves on each.
Fill with water, then open the air valve, run water until clear and repeat.
Duplicate process until it immediately runs clear, and then reverse
directiosn and do it again.

If the radiotr splits you needed to have it fixed anyway. It doesn't flow
well even after you pressure flush it then it needed to be hot tanked
anyway... in either cases its already out of the vehicle. (You can do it in
the vehicle, but its really a mess under the hood and you can only do it in
one direction. I wouldn't.)

Bob La Londe
www.YumaBassMan.com

On Jul 27, 1:01*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:25:38 -0700 (PDT), KD7HB
wrote:

On Jul 27, 10:14*am, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT), KD7HB
wrote:

One interesting thing I discovered long
ago is that the faster the water flows through a system, the less heat
transfer that occurs.

So maximum cooling occurs at zero flow? g

--
Ned Simmons

No, maximum heat transfer occurs.

I can imagine there may be specific regimes where increasing flow
reduces heat transfer, but I don't believe that it's true in general.

You then have to get that hot water
out to cool it and recycle it back to the engine. Look at the top/
bottom of a radiator. Many small, restricted openings to the cooling
tubes.

Been too long since the college physics class.

It's been 35+ years for me since I dealt with Messrs. Reynolds,
Prandtl and Nusselt, and 34 years since I forgot it all.

--
Ned Simmons

I was really hit with this a few years ago when we installed a 7 stage
convection oven at my plant for soldering surface mount printed
circuit boards. The last stage of the oven is a cooling stage cooled
by chilled water. I bought a 1 ton chiller and hooked it to the oven
using 1 inch rubber hoses that match the connections on the chiller.
The oven had 1 inch connections, but had reducers to about 1/4 inch.
It was a used oven.

Being one for more efficiency, I pulled the reducers and connected the
1 inch hoses. Guess what? No cooling, but the water really ran fast
through the unit. When I put the reducing fittings back on the oven
connection, a very slow flow of water came out, but lots of cooling
air now came out of the unit.

Paul

I don't want to bust your bubble, but you are barking up the wrong tree. You
are saying that your overheating problem is a product of poor design yet
thousands of these have been made and sold and in successful service. They
don't have your problems. I suggest you find the real problem and fix it.
Everything can be improved.......including the Triumph cooling system, but
redesigning a cooling system instead of fixing what's wrong is not
reasonable.
Steve

wrote in message
...
My Triumph consistenly runs warm and I would like it to flow a bit
more water. The vanes on the impeller are minisule compared to other
water pumps with similiar displacement engines. In the image the
2.0 / 2.5L engine displacement Triumph water pump with impeller is on
the left and the proposed donor impeller (from an Isuzu 2.3L) is on
the right.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...g/P1010003.jpg

How much press is needed for a cast iron or cast steel impeller? My
machinery handbook gives a bit of a overview but no good suggestions.
I am thingking about 0.001 to 0.0013. Your thoughts?

In trying to dismantle the two pumps, there is inadequate room to get
a bearing seperator between the impeller and the pump housing on
either pump. My thought is to remove the pressed on fan mounting
flange and then press the shaft (with impeller attached) out of the
pump housing. I got the pressed on fan mounting flange off of the
Isuzu water pump but did not succeeded in pressing the shaft out of
the housing (watching the deflection of the press and the increasing
effort on the jack hande, I stopped adding force). I have a "30 Ton"
Harbor Freight A-frame press that I suspect is capable of about 20T.
Does my proposal in dismantling sound wrong? I can cut the Isuzu pump
body apart if needed.

wrote in message
...
My Triumph consistenly runs warm and I would like it to flow a bit
more water. The vanes on the impeller are minisule compared to other
water pumps with similiar displacement engines. In the image the
2.0 / 2.5L engine displacement Triumph water pump with impeller is on
the left and the proposed donor impeller (from an Isuzu 2.3L) is on
the right.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...g/P1010003.jpg

How much press is needed for a cast iron or cast steel impeller? My
machinery handbook gives a bit of a overview but no good suggestions.
I am thingking about 0.001 to 0.0013. Your thoughts?

In trying to dismantle the two pumps, there is inadequate room to get
a bearing seperator between the impeller and the pump housing on
either pump. My thought is to remove the pressed on fan mounting
flange and then press the shaft (with impeller attached) out of the
pump housing. I got the pressed on fan mounting flange off of the
Isuzu water pump but did not succeeded in pressing the shaft out of
the housing (watching the deflection of the press and the increasing
effort on the jack hande, I stopped adding force). I have a "30 Ton"
Harbor Freight A-frame press that I suspect is capable of about 20T.
Does my proposal in dismantling sound wrong? I can cut the Isuzu pump
body apart if needed.

usually we drill a small hole in the old impeller hub along side of the
hardened shaft to remove the hub stress. The impeller will come off then.
You may have to cut the body of the Isuzu pump to get the bearing out. Some
have plastic rings that lock the bearing into the housing.

On Jul 27, 4:16*pm, KD7HB wrote:
On Jul 27, 1:01*pm, Ned Simmons wrote:



On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:25:38 -0700 (PDT), KD7HB
wrote:

On Jul 27, 10:14*am, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT), KD7HB
wrote:

One interesting thing I discovered long
ago is that the faster the water flows through a system, the less heat
transfer that occurs.

So maximum cooling occurs at zero flow? g

--
Ned Simmons

No, maximum heat transfer occurs.

I can imagine there may be specific regimes where increasing flow
reduces heat transfer, but I don't believe that it's true in general.

You then have to get that hot water
out to cool it and recycle it back to the engine. Look at the top/
bottom of a radiator. Many small, restricted openings to the cooling
tubes.

Been too long since the college physics class.

It's been 35+ years for me since I dealt with Messrs. Reynolds,
Prandtl and Nusselt, and 34 years since I forgot it all.

--
Ned Simmons

I was really hit with this a few years ago when we installed a 7 stage
convection oven at my plant for soldering surface mount printed
circuit boards. The last stage of the oven is a cooling stage cooled
by chilled water. I bought a 1 ton chiller and hooked it to the oven
using 1 inch rubber hoses that match the connections on the chiller.
The oven had 1 inch connections, but had reducers to about 1/4 inch.
It was a used oven.

Being one for more efficiency, I pulled the reducers and connected the
1 inch hoses. Guess what? No cooling, but the water really ran fast
through the unit. When I put the reducing fittings back on the oven
connection, a very slow flow of water came out, but lots of cooling
air now came out of the unit.

Paul

I'm not sure in which end of the process (heating the water, or
cooling the water) the problem really lies.
I'm guessing it's on the cooling-the-water stage.

I know that the hotter you get the water, the faster it will dump its
heat in the radiator (the bigger the temp change, the faster the
transfer), and more heat will be removed from the system, so it could
just be the 'cool the water' stage that's inefficient.

It's not really the flow rate that matters, but the delta-T on each
end, which is of course affected by the volume rate of flow.

And of course, the longer the water lingers in the radiator, the more
heat will be removed from it.


Dave

I'd be very careful pressing impellers on and off of shafts.
Water pumps usually have mechanical seals consisting of parts made of
graphite and ceramic, both of which are very brittle.

Engineman


On Jul 27, 2:12�pm, "Rick" wrote:
wrote in message

...





My Triumph consistenly runs warm and I would like it to flow a bit
more water. �The vanes on the impeller are minisule compared to other
water pumps with similiar displacement engines. �In the image the
2.0 / 2.5L engine displacement Triumph water pump with impeller is on
the left and the proposed donor impeller (from an Isuzu 2.3L) is on
the right.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...g/P1010003.jpg

How much press is needed for a cast iron or cast steel impeller? �My
machinery handbook gives a bit of a overview but no good suggestions.
I am thingking about 0.001 to 0.0013. �Your thoughts?

In trying to dismantle the two pumps, there is inadequate room to get
a bearing seperator between the impeller and the pump housing on
either pump. �My thought is to remove the pressed on fan mounting
flange and then press the shaft (with impeller attached) out of the
pump housing. �I got the pressed on fan mounting flange off of the
Isuzu water pump but did not succeeded in pressing the shaft out of
the housing (watching the deflection of the press and the increasing
effort on the jack hande, I stopped adding force). �I have a "30 Ton"
Harbor Freight A-frame press that I suspect is capable of about 20T.
Does my proposal in dismantling sound wrong? �I can cut the Isuzu pump
body apart if needed.

usually we drill a small hole in the old impeller hub along side of the
hardened shaft to remove the hub stress. The impeller will come off then.
You may have to cut the body of the Isuzu pump to get the bearing out. Some
have plastic �rings that lock the bearing into the housing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
I don't want to bust your bubble, but you are barking up the wrong tree.
You are saying that your overheating problem is a product of poor design
yet thousands of these have been made and sold and in successful service.
They don't have your problems. I suggest you find the real problem and fix
it. Everything can be improved.......including the Triumph cooling system,
but redesigning a cooling system instead of fixing what's wrong is not
reasonable.
Steve


steve - despite your statement, at least in my experience with a 61 plus 4
(uses a TR-3 engine), oveheating is just part of the experience - I could
get the car to run OK at 55 to 60 MPH by adding an oil cooler and some
baffling and removing the fan, or I could get it to be OK at 0-45 mph by
adding an electric fan in front of the radiator (no room behind, the front
suspension/frame member is 1/4 inch behind radiator in the middle) - but I
could never get it to operate across the whole range of speeds without
putting boiling water in my lap - perhaps part of the problem is the warmer
temperatures here than in the UK - and the real TRs had a different radiator
design that perhaps was better -

an after market oil cooler in a place that gets good air flow will help with
overheating for sure. I agree that a larger water pump probably won't help

I make water pumps for Lotus cars.
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d...ictures014.jpg
The impeller we use (made the pattern, foundry does the casting) has a .500
in. hole and the shaft is .502. I never re-use an impeller, as we charge too
much to risk failure. I set them in with Locktite engineering adhesive,
takes heat to get them off.
Looking at your unit, I would heat the whole thing to 350 degrees and then
push the shaft out of the impeller and casing in one move, letting the case
be the stop for the impeller, and ruining the seal. It should all move with
less than 1.5 tons force.
Diameter is 2.25 in.
height .833
dish in back, .22
I can send you one if you think it will work, get dimensions of yours and
the ceramic seal assembly.
I don't really think adding vanes is going to fix your heating problem, more
likely a clogged radiator, silted block, or leaking head gasket is
responsible.
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty

Have you looked into electric water pumps? Try here for some good info;

http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_Water_Pumps-content.aspx

Pete


--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College
Kingston, Ontario,
Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.