F. George McDuffee wrote:

We [the American taxpayers] desperately need an impartial and
objective "board of enquiry" to see both what went so wrong and
as far as it can be determined, who is responsible. For all
anyone knows, the current "rescue" efforts are simply making
things worse. These certainly violate one of the fundamental
principals of successful management "feed success and starve
failure."

What give up power to a board that can point the fingers back at Congress? If one was
created, it sure would not be impartial and objective.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Wes" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:

We [the American taxpayers] desperately need an impartial and
objective "board of enquiry" to see both what went so wrong and
as far as it can be determined, who is responsible. For all
anyone knows, the current "rescue" efforts are simply making
things worse. These certainly violate one of the fundamental
principals of successful management "feed success and starve
failure."

What give up power to a board that can point the fingers back at Congress?

What the House and Senate contributed is a matter of public record Wes.
What the Executive Branch did isn't.

If one was
created, it sure would not be impartial and objective.

I wouldn't want it to be either of those things. I'd want to feel such a
board was partial to the objectives of the American public and had the
agenda of trying to make prosecutions as well as recomendations.


JC

That's what you get for borrowing too much money.

i

"Ignoramus30547" wrote in message
...
That's what you get for borrowing too much money.

I haven't had any debt at all since about 2004.

JC

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 15:54:52 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
snip
If one was
created, it sure would not be impartial and objective.

I wouldn't want it to be either of those things. I'd want to feel such a
board was partial to the objectives of the American public and had the
agenda of trying to make prosecutions as well as recomendations.


JC
--------
Two different objectives indicates the need for two different
agencies.

(1) Investigation and as indicated prosecution for individual
violation of existing laws, and (2) an investigative commission
to determine how/what went wrong in the aggregate, i.e. how the
system broke down, and how the laws/regulations need to be
improved. It is possible that the system *WAS* fine, but the
industry/economy changed so much and so quickly that the existing
system of regulation became inadequate with the shift to a
global economy. At the very least, there should be *VERY*
extensive "lessons learned" section, and if there is not, then it
is time for another, better conducted committee.

To be sure there will be overlap, but the types of investigators
and resources required are very different, as will be the final
product.

Your point is well taken that the objective of both groups should
be to investigate from the perspective of the greater long-term
good for the majority of the American people, not the "white
wash" of any particular interest group.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus30547" wrote in message
...
That's what you get for borrowing too much money.

I haven't had any debt at all since about 2004.

JC

You know its funny. I took lots of steps in the last couple years to reduce
debt and improve credit. Basically I was down to auto loans for my business
vehicles, and my home loan which believe it or not is still actually less
than a current appraisal of the property. I paid off and closed several
accounts hoping to actually improve my credit and take advantage of even
lower interest rates ( I already had decent credit). There are things as a
business man that I counted on though as short term cash flow management
tools. One credit card with a high limit for quick handling of materials
for jobs. A bank line of credit to be used for bigger jobs, etc. When the
credit crunch hit my moves to reduce debt and improve my credit score by
reducing unnecessary accounts backfired on me. My remain accounts suddenly
had their limits reduced to just above current balances. Between that and a
slow down in cash flow from new incoming jobs put me on a subsistence level
for cash flow and paying bills. I didn't have more debt than I could
manage, and I am still paying all my bills, but my business no longer
enjoyed the huge cushion of credit and small cushion of cash that I have
enjoyed for the last decade. I'm almost back at the level I was at when I
opened the doors 15 years ago. No credit. Few bills. No money. The only
advantage I have is that I do have an inventory of materials for the jobs
coming in (makes for a small cushion if not in cash), and I have all the
tools and equipment of the trade. I can easily see where a lot of people
who were not not necessarily irresponsible could be in a lot worse shape
just from bad luck or bad timing, and I can see how I could wind up in worse
shape too.

I have one client who was opening a restaurant when the credit dried up and
blew away. He is good at it, and has made money in the business. He has
opened and sold while profitable a dozen restaurants I can think of off hand
since I started doing business with him, and still owns three. He would own
more, but a nasty divorce forced him to sell most of the others. He has
always paid his bills and had a pretty decent cash cushion on hand when he
started his latest project. An SBA loan had been approved, and between his
own cash and that he had enough money to carry him through the opening
period without issue. Before he got his first vendor paid things went to
hell. SBA says you have to spend all of your money first. He wound up
paying me for my work from the first week's receipts. Other vendors finally
got paid, but when we got the whole story it turns out his loan was the very
last one approved by the lender before they basically shut down all lending.
It took him hundreds of phone calls to get things moving and get vendors
paid. Imagine if he had been one day later in getting his paperwork done?
He would have been on the hook for 100s of thousands of dollars right now
for construction and specialty work and materials, and not been able to pay
for the equipment necessary to open the doors. This is a successful
business person with good credit, and a track record of success in his
industry. Even now with things being as tough as they are he is making it
through.

Is this his fault. No it's the fault of a system that destroyed our lending
institutions with garbage loans. He is going to survive as a business man.
I will survive as a business man. There are others, but look at the
difference in equipment and tools for sale. People are selling off the
tools of their trades in order to pay their bills today, and others don't
even own their equipment and tools. Many will not survive, and it will fall
on the shoulders of those of us who survive to pay the bills, and try to
employ the rest. Ultimately in any economy all loans against resources will
get equalized, and those who survived will have to work harder when others
don't.

Is that fair? No. But it's the way it is.

What is the solution? Quit your bitching and get back to work.
(Not aimed at any one person in particular.)

On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 08:33:15 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:
snip
What is the solution? Quit your bitching and get back to work.
(Not aimed at any one person in particular.)
snip
---------------
While excellent advice in the short run and for the individual,
this makes reoccurrence inevitable.

As indicated in previous postings, two parallel but separate
efforts are urgently needed at the national, and possibly state
levels:

(1) Special independent prosecutors to hold people and firms
accountable for violations of existing laws/regulations; and

(2) A new "Pecora" commission to examine how/why the system went
wrong, and what sort of changes/additions to the law/regulations
and practices are required to prevent a reoccurrence in the
"global economy," and "brave new world order."

It may well be that the debts/obligations of the existing
organizations such as AIG, Merrel, Citigroup, etc. had to be met
to avoid world-wide economic collapse, but it is not at all
apparent why the incompetents, ego maniacs, scoundrels and just
plain "scam artists" that caused the problems have to be left in
charge, nor why the taxpayer funds must be processed through
those companies. Indeed, this appears to be highly
counterproductive as it is resulting in "business as usual," with
continuing waste, e.g. AIG bonuses.

One possible explication is that things are many times worse than
the politicians want to admit, and they are effectively paying
the "perps" "hush money" is to not only to keep them quiet about
how bad things really are, but also to keep them quite about the
essential role the politicians had in creating the mess (and the
"sweet heart" deals they received).


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

"John R. Carroll" wrote:

What give up power to a board that can point the fingers back at Congress?

What the House and Senate contributed is a matter of public record Wes.
What the Executive Branch did isn't.

Did or didn't do? Do we have tapes of back room deals cut in congress? I'm not accepting
your premise at all. When Dodd gets a sweetheart loan and keeps his job, I know the game
is rigged.


If one was
created, it sure would not be impartial and objective.

I wouldn't want it to be either of those things. I'd want to feel such a
board was partial to the objectives of the American public and had the
agenda of trying to make prosecutions as well as recomendations.

I have an idea, let congress, that has oversight, do the job themselves. Might be fun
watching each side of the aisle take their turns on each other. We have atrocities like
BRAK or whatever it is called to shut down bases because this congress types can't do
their jobs. At least Bush had the stones to stand by his convictions. We can argue if he
was right or not but the buck did stop with him.


Wes
--

When in trouble or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

On Mar 15, 7:16*pm, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
"Ignoramus30547" wrote in message

...

That's what you get for borrowing too much money.

I haven't had any debt at all since about 2004.

JC

Don't kid yourself...you have debt...and you will be paying for it in
increased taxes and higher inflation.

And you will have George Bush to thank for it.

TMT

On Mar 16, 9:33*am, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in ...



"Ignoramus30547" wrote in message
m...
That's what you get for borrowing too much money.

I haven't had any debt at all since about 2004.

JC

You know its funny. *I took lots of steps in the last couple years to reduce
debt and improve credit. *Basically I was down to auto loans for my business
vehicles, and my home loan which believe it or not is still actually less
than a current appraisal of the property. *I paid off and closed several
accounts hoping to actually improve my credit and take advantage of even
lower interest rates ( I already had decent credit). *There are things as a
business man that I counted on though as short term cash flow management
tools. *One credit card with a high limit for quick handling of materials
for jobs. *A bank line of credit to be used for bigger jobs, etc. *When the
credit crunch hit my moves to reduce debt and improve my credit score by
reducing unnecessary accounts backfired on me. *My remain accounts suddenly
had their limits reduced to just above current balances. *Between that and a
slow down in cash flow from new incoming jobs put me on a subsistence level
for cash flow and paying bills. *I didn't have more debt than I could
manage, and I am still paying all my bills, but my business no longer
enjoyed the huge cushion of credit and small cushion of cash that I have
enjoyed for the last decade. *I'm almost back at the level I was at when I
opened the doors 15 years ago. *No credit. *Few bills. *No money. *The only
advantage I have is that I do have an inventory of materials for the jobs
coming in (makes for a small cushion if not in cash), and I have all the
tools and equipment of the trade. *I can easily see where a lot of people
who were not not necessarily irresponsible could be in a lot worse shape
just from bad luck or bad timing, and I can see how I could wind up in worse
shape too.

I have one client who was opening a restaurant when the credit dried up and
blew away. *He is good at it, and has made money in the business. *He has
opened and sold while profitable a dozen restaurants I can think of off hand
since I started doing business with him, and still owns three. *He would own
more, but a nasty divorce forced him to sell most of the others. *He has
always paid his bills and had a pretty decent cash cushion on hand when he
started his latest project. *An SBA loan had been approved, and between his
own cash and that he had enough money to carry him through the opening
period without issue. *Before he got his first vendor paid things went to
hell. *SBA says you have to spend all of your money first. *He wound up
paying me for my work from the first week's receipts. *Other vendors finally
got paid, but when we got the whole story it turns out his loan was the very
last one approved by the lender before they basically shut down all lending.
It took him hundreds of phone calls to get things moving and get vendors
paid. *Imagine if he had been one day later in getting his paperwork done?
He would have been on the hook for 100s of thousands of dollars right now
for construction and specialty work and materials, and not been able to pay
for the equipment necessary to open the doors. *This is a successful
business person with good credit, and a track record of success in his
industry. *Even now with things being as tough as they are he is making it
through.

Is this his fault. *No it's the fault of a system that destroyed our lending
institutions with garbage loans. *He is going to survive as a business man.
I will survive as a business man. *There are others, but look at the
difference in equipment and tools for sale. *People are selling off the
tools of their trades in order to pay their bills today, and others don't
even own their equipment and tools. *Many will not survive, and it will fall
on the shoulders of those of us who survive to pay the bills, and try to
employ the rest. *Ultimately in any economy all loans against resources will
get equalized, and those who survived will have to work harder when others
don't.

Is that fair? *No. *But it's the way it is.

What is the solution? *Quit your bitching and get back to work.
(Not aimed at any one person in particular.)

So what about the millions who have lost their jobs?

Got work for them at your business?

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
news:03ef53c3-aa1a-4aa8-

Is that fair? No. But it's the way it is.

What is the solution? Quit your bitching and get back to work.
(Not aimed at any one person in particular.)

So what about the millions who have lost their jobs?

There is always work. It may not sustain that over mortgaged house or that
over priced car, but there is always work to be done.

Got work for them at your business?

Some, but do I who have worked my ass off for the last 15 years owe them a
free ride? No. I worked evenings, and weekends, and holidays, and put in 80
hour weeks regularly for several years to get to the point where I am only
sweating out this depression, not already broke like some. See my first
reply. I delivered pizzas, tutored economics (I was better at micro than
macro), dug ditches, cut weeds in farm fields, picked fruit, and any other
work I could get when I didn't have any. Why should I support a whole class
who didn't? The truth is I shouldn't have to. I am not the one who lent
money foolishly, and I am not the one who took it. The fact of the mater is
I will be stuck with it though, because guys like me who continuously
produce are in the minority, and our vote is like ****ing in the wind. I
have to live with the results whether I like them or not. The only thing I
can do is go back to work, and if my business folds up tommorrow go looking
for a job digging ditches or cleaning toilets, or just walk the road picking
up aluminum cans.

During the last recession when I was laid off from the independent telephone
company I was working for I use my last check to fill my truck with gas,
stocked up on supplies and spent the winter running trap lines. It was hard
work and the price of fur was dropping hard, but I kept ahead by working
harder. There is always some work you can do.

The simple fact of the matter is that there is no "easy" answer. There is a
simple answer. Work ethic. Hard work, and gross product is what the
country needs. I am always amazed at how many people I have heard over the
years brag about getting a job where they get paid for doing nothing, or who
try and milk the system to get a free ride. Sure plenty didn't or don't see
themselves that way, but its a matter of degrees. If everybody in the
country spent 20-30 hours a week actually producing a valuable product or
service at a competitive rate we wouldn't be in this situation period. It
would be the 1950s again. The middle class would be bigger. The lower
class would be smaller, and we would again have the respect of the world.

Now, I am going to quit my bitching and go back to work.

On Mar 16, 8:44*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

news:03ef53c3-aa1a-4aa8-

Is that fair? No. But it's the way it is.

What is the solution? Quit your bitching and get back to work.
(Not aimed at any one person in particular.)
So what about the millions who have lost their jobs?

There is always work. *It may not sustain that over mortgaged house or that
over priced car, but there is always work to be done.

Got work for them at your business?

Some, but do I who have worked my ass off for the last 15 years owe them a
free ride? *No. I worked evenings, and weekends, and holidays, and put in 80
hour weeks regularly for several years to get to the point where I am only
sweating out this depression, not already broke like some. *See my first
reply. *I delivered pizzas, tutored economics (I was better at micro than
macro), dug ditches, cut weeds in farm fields, picked fruit, and any other
work I could get when I didn't have any. *Why should I support a whole class
who didn't? *The truth is I shouldn't have to. *I am not the one who lent
money foolishly, and I am not the one who took it. *The fact of the mater is
I will be stuck with it though, because guys like me who continuously
produce are in the minority, and our vote is like ****ing in the wind. *I
have to live with the results whether I like them or not. *The only thing I
can do is go back to work, and if my business folds up tommorrow go looking
for a job digging ditches or cleaning toilets, or just walk the road picking
up aluminum cans.

During the last recession when I was laid off from the independent telephone
company I was working for I use my last check to fill my truck with gas,
stocked up on supplies and spent the winter running trap lines. *It was hard
work and the price of fur was dropping hard, but I kept ahead by working
harder. *There is always some work you can do.

The simple fact of the matter is that there is no "easy" answer. *There is a
simple answer. *Work ethic. *Hard work, and gross product is what the
country needs. *I am always amazed at how many people I have heard over the
years brag about getting a job where they get paid for doing nothing, or who
try and milk the system to get a free ride. *Sure plenty didn't or don't see
themselves that way, but its a matter of degrees. *If everybody in the
country spent 20-30 hours a week actually producing a valuable product or
service at a competitive rate we wouldn't be in this situation period. *It
would be the 1950s again. *The middle class *would be bigger. *The lower
class would be smaller, and we would again have the respect of the world.

Now, I am going to quit my bitching and go back to work.

Correction....before this is done it may be 1050s again.

Ready for the Dark Ages?

TMT