Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

The reason for this is because the bench grinder is very slow, and
shaping convex profiles (as you find on the shoulders of a cutoff tool)
erodes the hell out of the corners of my grinding wheels. Since I want
to get things done, and I want to do it without dulling the corners on my
bench grinder, I use the hand grinder.

This works fine, but it's ugly as hell.

Is there a "more right" way to do this? The tools that I have at my
disposal are the afore-mentioned hand- and bench grinder, a truely
ancient Dremel tool (for which I have cutoff wheels, and can afford a few
odds and ends), and some stones for finishing things off nice and sharp.
I vaguely remember trying to cut off a corner of a 1/4" tool blank with
the Dremel cut-off tool and thinking that it's a dandy way to turn cut-
off wheels into powder.

If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Feb 18, 12:45*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

The reason for this is because the bench grinder is very slow, and
shaping convex profiles (as you find on the shoulders of a cutoff tool)
erodes the hell out of the corners of my grinding wheels. *Since I want
to get things done, and I want to do it without dulling the corners on my
bench grinder, I use the hand grinder.

This works fine, but it's ugly as hell.

Is there a "more right" way to do this? *The tools that I have at my
disposal are the afore-mentioned hand- and bench grinder, a truely
ancient Dremel tool (for which I have cutoff wheels, and can afford a few
odds and ends), and some stones for finishing things off nice and sharp. *
I vaguely remember trying to cut off a corner of a 1/4" tool blank with
the Dremel cut-off tool and thinking that it's a dandy way to turn cut-
off wheels into powder.

If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?

--http://www.wescottdesign.com

Angle grinder with a thin cutoff wheel works for gross shaping, like
making a grooving tool out of a 3/8" blank. I use a 1x42" belt
grinder for general tool sharpening, then touch things up with a
diamond hone afterwards. For a real finish, I use the hard Arkansas,
like for midget threading tools. Use a coarse belt on the belt
grinder, 40 grit or so.

Stan

On Feb 18, 2:45*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

This works fine, but it's ugly as hell.

Is there a "more right" way to do this?
--http://www.wescottdesign.com

Which Makita?

I grind them roughly to shape with an angle grinder, 7" to cut fast
and 4-1/2" for more control. The bits stay in place better at the end
of the vise jaw if the jaws are padded with sheet aluminum the bit can
press into and there is another bit taped in place on the other end to
make the jaws close parallel. Then I can really lean on the bit with
the coarser grinder and form the basic shape quickly. I try to grind
both sides and the end without having to move it because pliers slip
on the extremely hard metal and I don't want it melting through my
shoe.

Some examples:
http://picasaweb.google.com/KB1DAL/T...43778674022866

The smaller inside threading bit was cleaned up on the bench grinder,
the larger one still has some angle grinder finish.

The concave rounding bit was finished with a small conical stone in a
die grinder. The other end is for pulley grooves. The two half-rounds
were matched by eye to the holes in a drill gauge.

The One Right Tool would be the 4-1/2" grinder, the 7" one is too
heavy. It's fine for horizontal weld grinding because the wheel
supports its weight but I can't be accurate with it for long on a
vertical surface.

The cheapie $20 angle and die grinders are OK for short jobs like
this. They heat up quickly so I use them with specialized wheels and
burrs for small details, but not to smooth the larger welds.

Jim Wilkins

I have acquired a gearmotor. I've known of these and seen plenty, but I
have no idea what this one would be good for:

1/2 HP
30 RPM
6" single-groove Vee-pulley.

The only thing comes to mind is a power hacksaw.
What sorts of things would such a motor be used for?

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:23:54 -0600, RB wrote:

I have acquired a gearmotor. I've known of these and seen plenty, but I
have no idea what this one would be good for:

1/2 HP
30 RPM
6" single-groove Vee-pulley.

The only thing comes to mind is a power hacksaw.
What sorts of things would such a motor be used for?

Rock tumbler?

Jim wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:23:54 -0600, RB wrote:

I have acquired a gearmotor. I've known of these and seen plenty, but I
have no idea what this one would be good for:

1/2 HP
30 RPM
6" single-groove Vee-pulley.

The only thing comes to mind is a power hacksaw.
What sorts of things would such a motor be used for?

Rock tumbler?

That'd gear down my band saw so I could cut steel.
Totally useless to you though, just taking up space
and gathering dust..

So send it to me, already.

--Winston

--

I'm still waiting for another sublime, transcendent flash of adequacy.

Winston wrote:
Jim wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:23:54 -0600, RB wrote:

I have acquired a gearmotor. I've known of these and seen plenty,
but I have no idea what this one would be good for:

1/2 HP
30 RPM
6" single-groove Vee-pulley.

The only thing comes to mind is a power hacksaw.
What sorts of things would such a motor be used for?

Rock tumbler?

That'd gear down my band saw so I could cut steel.
Totally useless to you though, just taking up space
and gathering dust..

So send it to me, already.

I'll attach it to an email.
watch your inbox for a large file

RB wrote:

I have acquired a gearmotor. I've known of these and seen plenty, but I
have no idea what this one would be good for:

1/2 HP
30 RPM
6" single-groove Vee-pulley.

The only thing comes to mind is a power hacksaw.
What sorts of things would such a motor be used for?


Elevation screws on a band mill.

Wes

How about power feed on a cheap mill?

A cordless drill and an angle grinder head worked for mine.

"RB" wrote in message
...
I have acquired a gearmotor. I've known of these and seen plenty, but I
have no idea what this one would be good for:

1/2 HP
30 RPM
6" single-groove Vee-pulley.

The only thing comes to mind is a power hacksaw.
What sorts of things would such a motor be used for?

On 2009-02-19, Holmes, J. wrote:
How about power feed on a cheap mill?

Too slow.

i

Ignoramus27337 wrote:
On 2009-02-19, Holmes, J. wrote:
How about power feed on a cheap mill?

Too slow.

Also too big, and it's non-reversible.
This thing is the size of a 3/4HP motor, plus the gear drive housing.
The case is about 6" diameter

RB wrote:
I have acquired a gearmotor. I've known of these and seen plenty, but I
have no idea what this one would be good for:

1/2 HP
30 RPM
6" single-groove Vee-pulley.

The only thing comes to mind is a power hacksaw.
What sorts of things would such a motor be used for?

A roasting spit for slow turning wild boars over coals.
Trough a pulley system.

cheers
T.Alan

"RB" wrote in message
...
I have acquired a gearmotor. I've known of these and seen plenty, but I
have no idea what this one would be good for:

1/2 HP
30 RPM
6" single-groove Vee-pulley.

The only thing comes to mind is a power hacksaw.
What sorts of things would such a motor be used for?

Overhead crane, conveyor, mixer, elevator.

Elliot G wrote:
"RB" wrote in message
...
I have acquired a gearmotor. I've known of these and seen plenty, but I
have no idea what this one would be good for:

1/2 HP
30 RPM
6" single-groove Vee-pulley.

The only thing comes to mind is a power hacksaw.
What sorts of things would such a motor be used for?

Overhead crane, conveyor, mixer, elevator.

Hmmmm. I do need something to lift heavy bulky objects up to 8 feet.
Might be something there, but the motor is not reversible. At least it
doesn't appear so.

Paint mixer might be doable, and I often need one.

On 2009-02-19, RB wrote:
Hmmmm. I do need something to lift heavy bulky objects up to 8 feet.
Might be something there, but the motor is not reversible. At least it
doesn't appear so.

Paint mixer might be doable, and I often need one.

I have a Thern winch that is made for lifting heavy objects.

110v, 1 1/3 HP power, works great.

Price is $300.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Feb 19, 10:18*am, RB wrote:

Hmmmm. *I do need something to lift heavy bulky objects up to 8 feet.

This is the most versatile cheap hoist I've seen.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...Itemnumber=631

I bought the 2 ton one, in a store rather than from HF, because it's
the heaviest I can lift overhead and maneuver onto the hanger loop
with one hand. The harder part is getting it off the hanger which
means holding it by its hook to open the safety catch with one finger.
My other hand is on the ladder so the heavy swinging chain doesn't
pull me off balance.

It will pull a stuck vehicle if you have a helper to feed the hauling
chain in horizontally. Otherwise it jams. I store it in a bucket that
I put under it in use to keep the hauling chain out of the dirt.

Lever chain hoists are faster and easier but you need to be where the
lever is. The chain fall lets you stay on the ground farther away from
the load. I haven't tried non-commercial electric hoists since I
rarely lift heavy loads close to an electric outlet.

Jim Wilkins

RB wrote:
Elliot G wrote:
"RB" wrote in message
...
I have acquired a gearmotor. I've known of these and seen plenty,
but I have no idea what this one would be good for:

1/2 HP
30 RPM
6" single-groove Vee-pulley.

The only thing comes to mind is a power hacksaw.
What sorts of things would such a motor be used for?

Overhead crane, conveyor, mixer, elevator.

Hmmmm. I do need something to lift heavy bulky objects up to 8 feet.
Might be something there, but the motor is not reversible. At least it
doesn't appear so.

Paint mixer might be doable, and I often need one.

It'd make a really bitchin' drive for a sand muller ... If you're into
greensand casting of molten metals .
--
Snag
34 2 lb.(+ or-) ingots of Al waiting under the mill ...
and nowhere to work until it warms up .

Tim,
If you heat the bits enough to change the color, you are ruining the temper
of the steel and defeating your purpose before you start. Buy a bench
grinder, quench often and be patient.
Steve

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

The reason for this is because the bench grinder is very slow, and
shaping convex profiles (as you find on the shoulders of a cutoff tool)
erodes the hell out of the corners of my grinding wheels. Since I want
to get things done, and I want to do it without dulling the corners on my
bench grinder, I use the hand grinder.

This works fine, but it's ugly as hell.

Is there a "more right" way to do this? The tools that I have at my
disposal are the afore-mentioned hand- and bench grinder, a truely
ancient Dremel tool (for which I have cutoff wheels, and can afford a few
odds and ends), and some stones for finishing things off nice and sharp.
I vaguely remember trying to cut off a corner of a 1/4" tool blank with
the Dremel cut-off tool and thinking that it's a dandy way to turn cut-
off wheels into powder.

If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Feb 18, 4:28*pm, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
Tim,
If you heat the bits enough to change the color, you are ruining the temper
of the steel and defeating your purpose before you start. Buy a bench
grinder, quench often and be patient.
Steve

Very true for carbon steel. HSS doesn't anneal that easily and
quenching can cause cracks.

Jim Wilkins

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Tim,
If you heat the bits enough to change the color, you are ruining the
temper of the steel and defeating your purpose before you start. Buy a
bench grinder, quench often and be patient.
Steve

Not with high speed steel, Steve. Its tempering temperature is in the
neighborhood of 1050 - 1100 deg. F. When HSS was used in production,
machinists typically would grind it until it was *dull red*, let alone
showing tempering colors.

This is a common misconception about HSS. But if you can run it to dull
(very dull) red while turning with it, you can grind it to the same
temperature. And if you try it, you'll find that you can hog metal that way
with far less wear of the grinding wheel per unit of steel removed from the
tool.

Just don't dip it in water, because HSS can develop cracks if you do. If you
grind it hot, expect some deterioration (loss of temper; tiny microcracks)
about 0.001 - 0.002 in. deep. Grind that off cool, or, better, hand hone it
off when you give the tool its final sharpening.

--
Ed Huntress



"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

The reason for this is because the bench grinder is very slow, and
shaping convex profiles (as you find on the shoulders of a cutoff tool)
erodes the hell out of the corners of my grinding wheels. Since I want
to get things done, and I want to do it without dulling the corners on my
bench grinder, I use the hand grinder.

This works fine, but it's ugly as hell.

Is there a "more right" way to do this? The tools that I have at my
disposal are the afore-mentioned hand- and bench grinder, a truely
ancient Dremel tool (for which I have cutoff wheels, and can afford a few
odds and ends), and some stones for finishing things off nice and sharp.
I vaguely remember trying to cut off a corner of a 1/4" tool blank with
the Dremel cut-off tool and thinking that it's a dandy way to turn cut-
off wheels into powder.

If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Feb 18, 7:45 pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

--http://www.wescottdesign.com

A good bench grinder is what I use. There are a lot of underpowered
bench grinders out there, and
I suspect that is what you have. You should not be able to stall a
bench grinder. And with a coarse and fine wheel, you should be able to
grind a tool bit about as fast on it as using a angle grinder. Faster
if you count the time to get the angle grinder and the time to put it
away.

The wheels that come with most grinders are not great. But if you buy
a coarse wheel that is about as coarse as the wheel on the angle
grinder, it will cut quickly.


Dan

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:09:57 -0800, wrote:

On Feb 18, 7:45 pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

--http://www.wescottdesign.com

A good bench grinder is what I use. There are a lot of underpowered
bench grinders out there, and
I suspect that is what you have. You should not be able to stall a
bench grinder. And with a coarse and fine wheel, you should be able to
grind a tool bit about as fast on it as using a angle grinder. Faster
if you count the time to get the angle grinder and the time to put it
away.

The wheels that come with most grinders are not great. But if you buy a
coarse wheel that is about as coarse as the wheel on the angle grinder,
it will cut quickly.


Dan

But I'm still left with rounded-off corners on the wheel, which offends
my aesthetic sensibilities. That's primarily what I'm trying to avoid --
I like maintaining the wheel so its flat all the way across.

(Yes, I'm picky).

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Feb 18, 5:09*pm, " wrote:
...And with a coarse and fine wheel, you should be able to
grind a tool bit about as fast on it as using a angle grinder. *Faster
if you count the time to get the angle grinder and the time to put it
away.
Dan

The difference is between holding the hot bit versus the grinder. They
slip in Visegrips. An Armstrong type holder works well for roughing if
you don't mind scratching it with the wheel occasionally, but they
don't give a good sensitive feel for finishing.

My photo shows smooth continuous ground surfaces without the usual
multiple small facets from hand grinding. I do that by letting the bit
float slightly in my fingers so it touches the wheel all over. I press
the end against the motor housing first to align it and try to hold
that angle while grinding. The hollow-ground ends are easy to hone at
only the cutting edge.

Jim Wilkins.

On Feb 18, 11:15 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The difference is between holding the hot bit versus the grinder.

Jim Wilkins.

I just hold the bit in my fingers. The only time you really hog the
metal is when you are starting with a new piece that has never been
ground. And a new bit is fairly long. So you hold it in your
fingers, and when it get too hot, you drop it in the water container
right in front of the grinder. Sure you may get some surface cracks,
but you are going to do some finish grinding on the fine wheel. So it
makes no difference. Tool steel does not conduct heat as well as
plain steel, so you can get the end being ground pretty hot without
burning your fingers.

Well at least that is what I do. I ground a lot of bits before I ever
owned an angle grinder, so that is what I got used to. The bench
grinder I first used was a belt driven 8 inch grinder that W.W.
Grainger used to sell. So the wheels were bigger than the common 6
inch grinders, and the wheel rpm was between 3400 and 1750. Which made
the surface feet per minute about right for an 8 inch wheel.

Dan

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:09:57 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 18, 7:45 pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

--http://www.wescottdesign.com

A good bench grinder is what I use. There are a lot of underpowered
bench grinders out there, and
I suspect that is what you have. You should not be able to stall a
bench grinder. And with a coarse and fine wheel, you should be able to
grind a tool bit about as fast on it as using a angle grinder. Faster
if you count the time to get the angle grinder and the time to put it
away.

The wheels that come with most grinders are not great. But if you buy
a coarse wheel that is about as coarse as the wheel on the angle
grinder, it will cut quickly.


Dan

I use a 6x48 belt sander to bring to shape, then either a blue zirc belt
on the 1x42 or a white wheel on one of the various tool grinders, and a
diamond wheel to finish hone. Takes a minute or so to rough, maybe a
couple minutes more to finish.

Hold the tool bit in a drill chuck. Saves on finger burns and makes it
easier to hold on to.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:45:16 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

The reason for this is because the bench grinder is very slow, and
shaping convex profiles (as you find on the shoulders of a cutoff tool)
erodes the hell out of the corners of my grinding wheels. Since I want
to get things done, and I want to do it without dulling the corners on my
bench grinder, I use the hand grinder.

This works fine, but it's ugly as hell.

Is there a "more right" way to do this? The tools that I have at my
disposal are the afore-mentioned hand- and bench grinder, a truely
ancient Dremel tool (for which I have cutoff wheels, and can afford a few
odds and ends), and some stones for finishing things off nice and sharp.
I vaguely remember trying to cut off a corner of a 1/4" tool blank with
the Dremel cut-off tool and thinking that it's a dandy way to turn cut-
off wheels into powder.

If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?
==============
4 X 36 belt sander with 6 inch disk. Use zarconia [blue] belts
to rough grind and a fine grade disk to finish grind. With a
fine grit on the disk you can get a literal mirror finish.
example of sander
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...PARTPG=INLMK32
example of zarconia belts [scroll to bottom of page]
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?P...PARTPG=INLMK32
example of disks
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?P...PARTPG=INLMK32
Most car parts places that have painting supplies will have even
finer ones down to 2000 grit for a super finish.

The protractor on the fence/table is OK for wood working, but an
improved holder and accurate guide will give you better and more
repeatable results.
for my solution see
http://mcduffee-associates.us/machining/tabanggg.htm
and
http://mcduffee-associates.us/machining/thfnce.htm

Also get one of the machining textbooks that discusses lathe tool
geometry and nomenclature. Moltrecht vol one is good.
[get both volumes when you order.] Frequently on sale from Enco
and Amazon
http://new.industrialpress.com/machi...ition-volume-i
also the reprints from Lindsay books are very good and are priced
very reasonably.
http://lindsaybks.com/
most any of these lathe books will be very helpful.
Just make the tools look like the pictures to start.
http://lindsaybks.com/bks/lathebk/index.html
These angles have been developed over 100 years are more. After
you get this down, you can vary to see what works best with your
machine and way of working. Be sure to keep a notebook and
sketch what you do for easy reference.

A tip -- regular M2 is both easier to grind and cheaper than 5 or
10% cobalt, and will be more than adequate for your initial
projects. Also for the typical hobby/home shop lathe, rake at
the high side of the recommended range, or even above can be
helpful as this reduces the cutting forces. The trade-off is
shorter tool life, but this is not a major consideration for
home/hobby shop use.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Feb 18, 5:45*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
http://lindsaybks.com/
most any of these lathe books will be very helpful.
Just make the tools look like the pictures to start.http://lindsaybks.com/bks/lathebk/index.html
These angles have been developed over 100 years are more. *After
you get this down, you can vary to see what works best with your
machine and way of working. *Be sure to keep a notebook and
sketch what you do for easy reference. *

How to RUN A LATHE 1942 is as good as any. The changes in the later
edition are specific to South Bend lathes.

I vary the shape the book shows for the Side Tool slightly and use it
for most everything. My lathe won't take such a deep cut so I center
the point, shortening the main cutting edge and lengthening the other
downward sloped one, which can make nice smooth shearing cuts if the
bit is raised slightly.

Jim Wilkins

Thanks, George. Very informative on all. I can recommend the protractor table from
www.accu-finish.com

Bob Swinney
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:45:16 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

The reason for this is because the bench grinder is very slow, and
shaping convex profiles (as you find on the shoulders of a cutoff tool)
erodes the hell out of the corners of my grinding wheels. Since I want
to get things done, and I want to do it without dulling the corners on my
bench grinder, I use the hand grinder.

This works fine, but it's ugly as hell.

Is there a "more right" way to do this? The tools that I have at my
disposal are the afore-mentioned hand- and bench grinder, a truely
ancient Dremel tool (for which I have cutoff wheels, and can afford a few
odds and ends), and some stones for finishing things off nice and sharp.
I vaguely remember trying to cut off a corner of a 1/4" tool blank with
the Dremel cut-off tool and thinking that it's a dandy way to turn cut-
off wheels into powder.

If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?
==============
4 X 36 belt sander with 6 inch disk. Use zarconia [blue] belts
to rough grind and a fine grade disk to finish grind. With a
fine grit on the disk you can get a literal mirror finish.
example of sander
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...PARTPG=INLMK32
example of zarconia belts [scroll to bottom of page]
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?P...PARTPG=INLMK32
example of disks
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?P...PARTPG=INLMK32
Most car parts places that have painting supplies will have even
finer ones down to 2000 grit for a super finish.

The protractor on the fence/table is OK for wood working, but an
improved holder and accurate guide will give you better and more
repeatable results.
for my solution see
http://mcduffee-associates.us/machining/tabanggg.htm
and
http://mcduffee-associates.us/machining/thfnce.htm

Also get one of the machining textbooks that discusses lathe tool
geometry and nomenclature. Moltrecht vol one is good.
[get both volumes when you order.] Frequently on sale from Enco
and Amazon
http://new.industrialpress.com/machi...ition-volume-i
also the reprints from Lindsay books are very good and are priced
very reasonably.
http://lindsaybks.com/
most any of these lathe books will be very helpful.
Just make the tools look like the pictures to start.
http://lindsaybks.com/bks/lathebk/index.html
These angles have been developed over 100 years are more. After
you get this down, you can vary to see what works best with your
machine and way of working. Be sure to keep a notebook and
sketch what you do for easy reference.

A tip -- regular M2 is both easier to grind and cheaper than 5 or
10% cobalt, and will be more than adequate for your initial
projects. Also for the typical hobby/home shop lathe, rake at
the high side of the recommended range, or even above can be
helpful as this reduces the cutting forces. The trade-off is
shorter tool life, but this is not a major consideration for
home/hobby shop use.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:45:16 -0600, Tim Wescott wrote:



If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?


I'd make you buy a surface grinder and a sine vise. But you might never talk
to me again...

One can get spoiled by the tools that are available sometimes.

More seriously, look into something like a "Tinker" cutter grinder jig from
our friend Mr Lautard. Dedicate a decent straight cup wheel to tool grinding
and don't quench HSS.


regards
Mark Rand
RTFM

On Feb 18, 6:17*pm, Mark Rand wrote:
More seriously, look into something like a "Tinker" cutter grinder jig from
our friend Mr Lautard. Dedicate a decent straight cup wheel to tool grinding
and don't quench HSS.
Mark Rand

I replaced the disk on a $49.95 one of these;
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=93981

with a home-made pulley plus 1-1/4" arbor that takes an Enco face
wheel for a Baldor-clone tool grinder. The tilting table is too
flexible for serious rough grinding but adequate to finish the edges.

Jim Wilkins

Here's a link to the Tinker plans, and plans for other shop tools:

http://www.lautard.com/tinker-s.htm

http://www.lautard.com/

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:45:16 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:



If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?


I'd make you buy a surface grinder and a sine vise. But you might never
talk
to me again...

One can get spoiled by the tools that are available sometimes.

More seriously, look into something like a "Tinker" cutter grinder jig
from
our friend Mr Lautard. Dedicate a decent straight cup wheel to tool
grinding
and don't quench HSS.


regards
Mark Rand
RTFM

Here's a link to the Tinker plans, and plans for other shop tools:

http://www.lautard.com/tinker-s.htm

http://www.lautard.com/

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:45:16 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:



If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?


I'd make you buy a surface grinder and a sine vise. But you might never
talk
to me again...

One can get spoiled by the tools that are available sometimes.

More seriously, look into something like a "Tinker" cutter grinder jig
from
our friend Mr Lautard. Dedicate a decent straight cup wheel to tool
grinding
and don't quench HSS.


regards
Mark Rand
RTFM

A) T&C grinder
B) Belt sander

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

The reason for this is because the bench grinder is very slow, and
shaping convex profiles (as you find on the shoulders of a cutoff tool)
erodes the hell out of the corners of my grinding wheels. Since I want
to get things done, and I want to do it without dulling the corners on my
bench grinder, I use the hand grinder.

This works fine, but it's ugly as hell.

Is there a "more right" way to do this? The tools that I have at my
disposal are the afore-mentioned hand- and bench grinder, a truely
ancient Dremel tool (for which I have cutoff wheels, and can afford a few
odds and ends), and some stones for finishing things off nice and sharp.
I vaguely remember trying to cut off a corner of a 1/4" tool blank with
the Dremel cut-off tool and thinking that it's a dandy way to turn cut-
off wheels into powder.

If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I haven't used an angle grinder to shape HSS cutting tools, but it seems
like an appropriate method. Consider putting the cutting tool in a bench
vise as Jim suggested, or make a bracket/framework to hold the angle grinder
so it can be securely mounted in a vise or attached to something stationary,
like a bench.
Trying to use a 4-1/2" angle grinder wheel on a 3000 RPM bench grinder won't
work very well at all, but getting a larger diameter wheel intended for
bigger angle grinders may produce satisfactory/better results, although
you'll need to make an accurate and safe adapter to mount a larger wheel to
the bench grinder arbor/shaft.
I wouldn't expect excellent results from this, because coarse grinding
disks/wheels for angle grinders shed a lot of abrasive.. that's how they are
able to keep cutting at a fairly consistent rate.

There are some tool sellers that sell 8 piece pre-ground HSS cutting tool
sets for about $40 (or more for 3/8" size). I haven't bought them, because I
assume that they're made from low grade Chinese HSS.
Decide if buying a set of these cutting tools is better than dressing your
grinding wheel. If you're redressing your grinding wheels with a diamond
you'll probably waste a lot of abrasive.. get a good dressing stick instead
(not expensive, maybe $8 or less) .

You might try gouging/hogging away the majority of the HSS with the angle
grinder, then changing over to a bigger rotary tool like a die grinder with
a 1/4" shank capacity/collet to do the finish shaping. Appropriate safety
equipment is definitely required when using guarded or unguarded high speed
power tools.
The trouble with small Dremel-type tools is that they lack real power, and
that nearly all of the 1/8" mounted stones are fine abrasive.
I think the small rotary tools are great for light duty work, but shaping
HSS tools is a demanding task.

As others have suggested, better quality grinding wheels provide better
performance.

I manage to do all of the HSS rough and shaping with a coarse wheel on a
bench grinder without too much trouble because I can grind HSS very
aggressively using some tool holders I made.

http://www.kwagmire.com/tools/broach_tool.html

If you don't grind aggressively, you might just be glazing the wheel, which
makes it dull, and then it's just generating a lot of heat and very little
grinding is taking place. You can actually see the face of the wheel is
shiny if you point a light at it.. you can see the light reflecting from the
wheel surface. The glaze can be broken down quickly with a dressing stick,
after which you'll notice a dramatic difference/improvement in the
effectiveness of the abrasive.

I believe Harold has made all of the required recommendations for selecting
and using grinding wheels effectively for grinding HSS cutting tools. You
can download the PDF he

http://twoloonscoffee.com/download/

I also haven't used belt sanders/grinders for shaping HSS, but many lathe
owners say they're great. Just be aware that they can create crowned facets
(beause the belt can start to rise and be a bit loose where it meets the
workpiece), so don't assume that all surfaces will be flat.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

The reason for this is because the bench grinder is very slow, and
shaping convex profiles (as you find on the shoulders of a cutoff tool)
erodes the hell out of the corners of my grinding wheels. Since I want
to get things done, and I want to do it without dulling the corners on my
bench grinder, I use the hand grinder.

This works fine, but it's ugly as hell.

Is there a "more right" way to do this? The tools that I have at my
disposal are the afore-mentioned hand- and bench grinder, a truely
ancient Dremel tool (for which I have cutoff wheels, and can afford a few
odds and ends), and some stones for finishing things off nice and sharp.
I vaguely remember trying to cut off a corner of a 1/4" tool blank with
the Dremel cut-off tool and thinking that it's a dandy way to turn cut-
off wheels into powder.

If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Feb 19, 8:55*am, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
I haven't used an angle grinder to shape HSS cutting tools, but it seems
like an appropriate method. Consider putting the cutting tool in a bench
vise as Jim suggested, or make a bracket/framework to hold the angle grinder
so it can be securely mounted in a vise or attached to something stationary,
like a bench.

Mounting the angle grinder cancels the advantage of holding the cool
object instead of the hot one. I think a bench grinder would be
better.

Trying to use a 4-1/2" angle grinder wheel on a 3000 RPM bench grinder won't
work very well at all, but getting a larger diameter wheel intended for
bigger angle grinders may produce satisfactory/better results, although
you'll need to make an accurate and safe adapter to mount a larger wheel to
the bench grinder arbor/shaft.
I wouldn't expect excellent results from this, because coarse grinding
disks/wheels for angle grinders shed a lot of abrasive.. that's how they are
able to keep cutting at a fairly consistent rate.

I've messed around with several versions of a thin wheel to grind
recesses and still like the hand-held angle grinder best. For one
thing it keeps the sparks and shed abrasives on the far side away from
your face. A cut-off wheel in a table saw isn't too bad, but the one I
set up is deliberately low-powered to limit potential violence. You
won't catch me grinding on the chop saw with the switch tied down!!!

You might try gouging/hogging away the majority of the HSS with the angle
grinder, then changing over to a bigger rotary tool like a die grinder with
a 1/4" shank capacity/collet to do the finish shaping.

The coarse wheel on my pedestal grinder is about right for woodworking
tools, but not aggressive enough to rough a lathe bit blank quickly.
It's fine once the bit is close to size, that's why I shape them first
with the angle grinder. I simply don't have the space to have the
correct grinding wheel for everything. The SiC fine wheel is a barely
adequate compromise. I'd rather have a separate Baldor with one SiC
and one diamond wheel. Does anyone in the Nashua area have one they
don't need?

I also haven't used belt sanders/grinders for shaping HSS, but many lathe
owners say they're great. Just be aware that they can create crowned facets
(beause the belt can start to rise and be a bit loose where it meets the
workpiece), so don't assume that all surfaces will be flat.
WB

If the top roller isn't guarded you can hollow-grind bits on it
without that problem since the belt is tight there. Otherwise sanding
with the cutting edge down seems to help, although it may leave a wire
edge.

Although it never happened when I was present, the belt on the sander
at MITRE sometimes had holes ripped in it where the piece being sanded
dug in. I think people were sharpening their lawnmower blades on it
and a corner caught.

Jim Wilkins

Well, I'm a big supporter/believer in whatever method has been working for
someone, is a good method for them to use.

I don't hold HSS blanks in my fingers anymore, since I made the holders
mentioned in my earlier reply. Heat isn't an issue, so that permits me to
essentially grind the hell outta blanks without turning my fingertips to
leather.

I agree Jim, the chop saw usage would be foolish.

Using actual cutoff disks for HSS is a bit more difficult than using them
with mild steel and sheetmetal. In contact with HSS, the operation slows
down greatly as the actual process changes from cutting to grinding.

I've got some 6" 1/4" wide aluminum oxide wheels that I'll use when I get
another bench grinder, but like you suggested, for lots of general shop
grinding variations it takes several grinders with different abrasives
"mounted and ready to go" when needed, which also requires more shop space
(hopefully isolated from the shop machines).

I'm convinced that a specially-built grinding setup/fixture just for lathe
cutting tools would be a worthwhile project, kinda like a compat version of
a T & C grinder just for lathe cutting tools.
That was the direction I was headed in when I made the holders for grinding
blanks, but the idea was set aside as I got interested in other projects.

The grinding/sharpening machines that use a right-angle worm gear reducer to
provide a fast dry wheel, and a slow wet wheel could be very versatile,
maybe moreso for a woodworker though.

I do OK with grinding HSS cutting tools, but better vision would make it
much easier (even though I use good lighting and a big magnifying lens at
the grinder).

I've seen other examples of belt sander abuse by plant personnel that
shouldn't be alllowed anywhere near such a machine.
It seems that many folks find belt sanders less intimidating than a big
grinder, and they try to do all sorts of foolish stuff with them, many times
it's stuff that should be done with a file anyway.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Feb 19, 8:55 am, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
I haven't used an angle grinder to shape HSS cutting tools, but it seems
like an appropriate method. Consider putting the cutting tool in a bench
vise as Jim suggested, or make a bracket/framework to hold the angle
grinder
so it can be securely mounted in a vise or attached to something
stationary,
like a bench.

Mounting the angle grinder cancels the advantage of holding the cool
object instead of the hot one. I think a bench grinder would be
better.

Trying to use a 4-1/2" angle grinder wheel on a 3000 RPM bench grinder
won't
work very well at all, but getting a larger diameter wheel intended for
bigger angle grinders may produce satisfactory/better results, although
you'll need to make an accurate and safe adapter to mount a larger wheel
to
the bench grinder arbor/shaft.
I wouldn't expect excellent results from this, because coarse grinding
disks/wheels for angle grinders shed a lot of abrasive.. that's how they
are
able to keep cutting at a fairly consistent rate.

I've messed around with several versions of a thin wheel to grind
recesses and still like the hand-held angle grinder best. For one
thing it keeps the sparks and shed abrasives on the far side away from
your face. A cut-off wheel in a table saw isn't too bad, but the one I
set up is deliberately low-powered to limit potential violence. You
won't catch me grinding on the chop saw with the switch tied down!!!

You might try gouging/hogging away the majority of the HSS with the angle
grinder, then changing over to a bigger rotary tool like a die grinder
with
a 1/4" shank capacity/collet to do the finish shaping.

The coarse wheel on my pedestal grinder is about right for woodworking
tools, but not aggressive enough to rough a lathe bit blank quickly.
It's fine once the bit is close to size, that's why I shape them first
with the angle grinder. I simply don't have the space to have the
correct grinding wheel for everything. The SiC fine wheel is a barely
adequate compromise. I'd rather have a separate Baldor with one SiC
and one diamond wheel. Does anyone in the Nashua area have one they
don't need?

I also haven't used belt sanders/grinders for shaping HSS, but many lathe
owners say they're great. Just be aware that they can create crowned
facets
(beause the belt can start to rise and be a bit loose where it meets the
workpiece), so don't assume that all surfaces will be flat.
WB

If the top roller isn't guarded you can hollow-grind bits on it
without that problem since the belt is tight there. Otherwise sanding
with the cutting edge down seems to help, although it may leave a wire
edge.

Although it never happened when I was present, the belt on the sander
at MITRE sometimes had holes ripped in it where the piece being sanded
dug in. I think people were sharpening their lawnmower blades on it
and a corner caught.

Jim Wilkins

On Feb 20, 7:59*am, "Wild_Bill" wrote:
...
The grinding/sharpening machines that use a right-angle worm gear reducer to
provide a fast dry wheel, and a slow wet wheel could be very versatile,
maybe moreso for a woodworker though.

I've been using my surface grinder to clean up woodworking blades that
have drifted out of square. It works but it's definitely not the right
tool for general resharpening because it burns the carbon steel too
easily. I think I can take off up to 0.002" per pass without bluing
the edge. The surface grinder does a very nice job when it removes a
only few tenths, such as resharpening my jointer's cutting head
between centers.

It's down right now. The spindle adapter doesn't match Sopko drawings,
the taper is different, so I'm making some more and a dummy spindle
that runs between lathe centers.

"Not the right tool" describes much of what I do at home anyway.

Jim Wilkins

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:45:16 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

The reason for this is because the bench grinder is very slow, and
shaping convex profiles (as you find on the shoulders of a cutoff tool)
erodes the hell out of the corners of my grinding wheels. Since I want
to get things done, and I want to do it without dulling the corners on my
bench grinder, I use the hand grinder.

This works fine, but it's ugly as hell.

Is there a "more right" way to do this? The tools that I have at my
disposal are the afore-mentioned hand- and bench grinder, a truely
ancient Dremel tool (for which I have cutoff wheels, and can afford a few
odds and ends), and some stones for finishing things off nice and sharp.
I vaguely remember trying to cut off a corner of a 1/4" tool blank with
the Dremel cut-off tool and thinking that it's a dandy way to turn cut-
off wheels into powder.

If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?

I'd keep on using the tools you are using now. they will involve you
in no extra cost and they do the job.
if this technique catches on it may end up being the standard way of
doing things.

for some reason angle head grinders have a reputation for rough work.
with a delicate touch they can do superb fine work.
Stealth Pilot

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:42:35 GMT, the infamous Stealth Pilot
scrawled the following:

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:45:16 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

Of late when I need a cutter I rough it out of an appropriate HSS blank
with a Makita hand grinder, then finish it on a bench grinder.

The reason for this is because the bench grinder is very slow, and
shaping convex profiles (as you find on the shoulders of a cutoff tool)
erodes the hell out of the corners of my grinding wheels. Since I want
to get things done, and I want to do it without dulling the corners on my
bench grinder, I use the hand grinder.

This works fine, but it's ugly as hell.

Is there a "more right" way to do this? The tools that I have at my
disposal are the afore-mentioned hand- and bench grinder, a truely
ancient Dremel tool (for which I have cutoff wheels, and can afford a few
odds and ends), and some stones for finishing things off nice and sharp.
I vaguely remember trying to cut off a corner of a 1/4" tool blank with
the Dremel cut-off tool and thinking that it's a dandy way to turn cut-
off wheels into powder.

I've had good luck with the 4" x 1/16" cutoff wheels in a die grinder.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44812
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=93389
It's amazing how handy this pair can be for so little money.

If you don't have a die grinder, here's a cheapie which lasts:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92007

A very versatile new toolset for under $17? Just do it.


If you just couldn't stand the thought of doing it with the above tools,
what one tool would you make me buy, and how would you tell me to use it?

I'd keep on using the tools you are using now. they will involve you
in no extra cost and they do the job.
if this technique catches on it may end up being the standard way of
doing things.

Bite your tongue, heathen. TOOLS! MORE TOOLS! WE WANT MORE TOOLS!


for some reason angle head grinders have a reputation for rough work.
with a delicate touch they can do superb fine work.

That's very true. I have a Lancelot bit which mounts to my angle
grinder. It's a mini-chainsaw on steroids which'll cut a tubafore in
half in about five seconds. In the right hands, it can be used to draw
eyebrow hairs on a carving. I'd bet that a flap sanding wheel on an
angle grinder could do the same delicate things.

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren

Possibly even better would be to use an electric die grinder, Larry.

I've used a lot of air powered tools (like yourself), but running a big air
compressor motor of maybe 2 to 5+ HP, to do the work that a 1/4 to 1/2 HP
universal motor could do, just doesn't seem very practical to me.

Both versions require proper safety equipment.

The additional advantage of an electric die grinder is that it can be used
where no compressed air source is available.

The electric version may require a little more preventive maintenance, but a
quality electric die grinder should provide many years of reliable service
(and the operator's arm and hand don't need to support weight of the air
hose).

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

I've had good luck with the 4" x 1/16" cutoff wheels in a die grinder.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44812
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=93389
It's amazing how handy this pair can be for so little money.

If you don't have a die grinder, here's a cheapie which lasts:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92007

A very versatile new toolset for under $17? Just do it.


Bite your tongue, heathen. TOOLS! MORE TOOLS! WE WANT MORE TOOLS!


That's very true. I have a Lancelot bit which mounts to my angle
grinder. It's a mini-chainsaw on steroids which'll cut a tubafore in
half in about five seconds. In the right hands, it can be used to draw
eyebrow hairs on a carving. I'd bet that a flap sanding wheel on an
angle grinder could do the same delicate things.

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren