I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928 whose
ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively) unworn key
kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a master for making
duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good condition, as the one good key
operates all of them easily. But I don't want to start using this last key,
as once it is worn out, that'll be the end of making a duplicate with a
pattern copyer. However, due to the 'strange' design of old Porsche keys,
no local locksmiths can duplicate these on standard equipment. The cost of
having a new key made from the VIN number, or by a specialty locksmith is
on the order of $150 to $200.

Although the keys are of an unusual configuration, they don't appear to be
that difficult to make on a mini-mill. I can measure the one good key and
probably make a workable copy. I'm guessing that key tolerances can't be
terribly close. My worn keys are visibly different from the good one (10 to
20 thousandths off, I'm guessing) and still 'sort of' work. Even high
security locks (Medeco) have been hacked by people with a photo of a key, a
piece of stiff plastic and an Xacto knife. So we're not talking precision
here.

What would help (if its available) is the manufacturer's specifications for
the key blank and pin heights. I'm not a locksmith, but I'm guessing that
the pin heights are set by some integer value times an offset in mm, or
based upon a lookup value. If I had this, then I could correct my
measurements to the nearest correct spec value. Otherwise, I'll just cut
the key to my measurements.

So, my question is: Where might this info be available? I understand that
high security lock manufacturers don't release this kind of info on a
non-restricted basis. But I'm guessing that a 1979 auto isn't exactly the
same as a safety deposit box.

Any other advice would be appreciated as well.

--
Paul Hovnanian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
diainc...
I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928 whose
ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively) unworn key
kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a master for making
duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good condition, as the one good
key
operates all of them easily. But I don't want to start using this last
key,
as once it is worn out, that'll be the end of making a duplicate with a
pattern copyer. However, due to the 'strange' design of old Porsche keys,
no local locksmiths can duplicate these on standard equipment. The cost of
having a new key made from the VIN number, or by a specialty locksmith is
on the order of $150 to $200.

Although the keys are of an unusual configuration, they don't appear to be
that difficult to make on a mini-mill. I can measure the one good key and
probably make a workable copy. I'm guessing that key tolerances can't be
terribly close. My worn keys are visibly different from the good one (10
to
20 thousandths off, I'm guessing) and still 'sort of' work. Even high
security locks (Medeco) have been hacked by people with a photo of a key,
a
piece of stiff plastic and an Xacto knife. So we're not talking precision
here.

What would help (if its available) is the manufacturer's specifications
for
the key blank and pin heights. I'm not a locksmith, but I'm guessing that
the pin heights are set by some integer value times an offset in mm, or
based upon a lookup value. If I had this, then I could correct my
measurements to the nearest correct spec value. Otherwise, I'll just cut
the key to my measurements.

So, my question is: Where might this info be available? I understand that
high security lock manufacturers don't release this kind of info on a
non-restricted basis. But I'm guessing that a 1979 auto isn't exactly the
same as a safety deposit box.

Contact Torrance Lock and Key.
The owner there can answer your questions and more.


JC

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
diainc...
I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928 whose
ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively) unworn key
kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a master for making
duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good condition, as the one good
key
operates all of them easily.

snip

Any other advice would be appreciated as well.

--


suggest posting this in the 944 newsgroup or the 928 newsgroup - I've had
no problems having keys made for an 84 944, an 95.5 944, an 86 944, and an
87 944, but I haven't tried anything pre-80s in that series. I've also had
no problems with my 356, but that is maybe "too old".

be sure to oil the door handles - you won't be happy if the mechanism inside
the handle fails.

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928 whose
ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively) unworn key
kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a master for making
duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good condition, as the one good key
operates all of them easily. But I don't want to start using this last key,
as once it is worn out, that'll be the end of making a duplicate with a
pattern copyer. However, due to the 'strange' design of old Porsche keys,
no local locksmiths can duplicate these on standard equipment. The cost of
having a new key made from the VIN number, or by a specialty locksmith is
on the order of $150 to $200.

In other words none of the folks you have gone to so far are very
knowledgeable. ANY key can be cut, maybe you need a manual machine, a
hand press or even a key file to cut one but a good smith can cut that key.

Does it use the same key for ALL locks on the vehicle? If yes you could
remove one of the least used locks (passenger side or trunk lid are
usually MUCH less worn than the ignition switch) Now take THAT lock to a
locksmith and have them cut your new keys to fit it. The catch with this
is that SOME manufacturers don't use ALL the key cuts for those locks.
That is easy to determine and the smith could cut those locations based
on your "good" key.


Although the keys are of an unusual configuration, they don't appear to be
that difficult to make on a mini-mill. I can measure the one good key and
probably make a workable copy. I'm guessing that key tolerances can't be
terribly close. My worn keys are visibly different from the good one (10 to
20 thousandths off, I'm guessing) and still 'sort of' work. Even high
security locks (Medeco) have been hacked by people with a photo of a key, a
piece of stiff plastic and an Xacto knife. So we're not talking precision
here.

What would help (if its available) is the manufacturer's specifications for
the key blank and pin heights. I'm not a locksmith, but I'm guessing that
the pin heights are set by some integer value times an offset in mm, or
based upon a lookup value. If I had this, then I could correct my
measurements to the nearest correct spec value. Otherwise, I'll just cut
the key to my measurements.

Actually they are simply cut pins. They vary in length by a set value
depending on the locks manufacturer. What will trip you up is that some
use special diameters OR mushroom pins. The common pins are .003 or .005
based.


So, my question is: Where might this info be available? I understand that
high security lock manufacturers don't release this kind of info on a
non-restricted basis. But I'm guessing that a 1979 auto isn't exactly the
same as a safety deposit box.

http://www.clksupplies.com/shop/inde...Path=24_59_191
may have your blank, if not I would bet you can get a blank that will
fit easy enough.



Any other advice would be appreciated as well.



--
Steve W.

"Steve W." wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928 whose
ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively) unworn key
kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a master for making
duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good condition, as the one good key
operates all of them easily. But I don't want to start using this last key,
as once it is worn out, that'll be the end of making a duplicate with a
pattern copyer. However, due to the 'strange' design of old Porsche keys,
no local locksmiths can duplicate these on standard equipment. The cost of
having a new key made from the VIN number, or by a specialty locksmith is
on the order of $150 to $200.

In other words none of the folks you have gone to so far are very
knowledgeable. ANY key can be cut, maybe you need a manual machine, a
hand press or even a key file to cut one but a good smith can cut that key.

Does it use the same key for ALL locks on the vehicle?

Yes.

If yes you could
remove one of the least used locks (passenger side or trunk lid are
usually MUCH less worn than the ignition switch) Now take THAT lock to a
locksmith and have them cut your new keys to fit it. The catch with this
is that SOME manufacturers don't use ALL the key cuts for those locks.
That is easy to determine and the smith could cut those locations based
on your "good" key.

Right. Every local locksmith has quoted me in the $150 to $200 range.
According to the local Porsche club, they just send the job out to one
of a few outfits with the specialized cutting equipment. I could do the
same. Or send my VIN number to the factory for a similar price.


Although the keys are of an unusual configuration, they don't appear to be
that difficult to make on a mini-mill. I can measure the one good key and
probably make a workable copy. I'm guessing that key tolerances can't be
terribly close. My worn keys are visibly different from the good one (10 to
20 thousandths off, I'm guessing) and still 'sort of' work. Even high
security locks (Medeco) have been hacked by people with a photo of a key, a
piece of stiff plastic and an Xacto knife. So we're not talking precision
here.

What would help (if its available) is the manufacturer's specifications for
the key blank and pin heights. I'm not a locksmith, but I'm guessing that
the pin heights are set by some integer value times an offset in mm, or
based upon a lookup value. If I had this, then I could correct my
measurements to the nearest correct spec value. Otherwise, I'll just cut
the key to my measurements.

Actually they are simply cut pins. They vary in length by a set value
depending on the locks manufacturer. What will trip you up is that some
use special diameters OR mushroom pins. The common pins are .003 or .005
based.

Nope. The cuts are made at 45 degrees to the side of the key. The depths
of the cut at each position vary such that each pin is depressed both
vertically and laterally. Or there's a pin facing each side of the key
at that 45 degree angle.


So, my question is: Where might this info be available? I understand that
high security lock manufacturers don't release this kind of info on a
non-restricted basis. But I'm guessing that a 1979 auto isn't exactly the
same as a safety deposit box.

http://www.clksupplies.com/shop/inde...Path=24_59_191
may have your blank, if not I would bet you can get a blank that will
fit easy enough.


Blanks are about $30 each online. Its the cutter that is hard to come
by.

I suppose this seems like a lot of work to go through to save $150. But
then if I applied that logic to every project I've undertaken, I'd never
have bought my first tool.

Any other advice would be appreciated as well.


--
Steve W.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Incorrigible punster -- Do not incorrige.

Paul I am a locksmith, and I have the blanks and the equipment to duplicate
these keys. Our regular price is $40 each.

Our shop is in Sacramento, CA.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.


"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
diainc...
I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928 whose
ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively) unworn key
kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a master for making
duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good condition, as the one good
key
operates all of them easily. But I don't want to start using this last
key,
as once it is worn out, that'll be the end of making a duplicate with a
pattern copyer. However, due to the 'strange' design of old Porsche keys,
no local locksmiths can duplicate these on standard equipment. The cost of
having a new key made from the VIN number, or by a specialty locksmith is
on the order of $150 to $200.

Although the keys are of an unusual configuration, they don't appear to be
that difficult to make on a mini-mill. I can measure the one good key and
probably make a workable copy. I'm guessing that key tolerances can't be
terribly close. My worn keys are visibly different from the good one (10
to
20 thousandths off, I'm guessing) and still 'sort of' work. Even high
security locks (Medeco) have been hacked by people with a photo of a key,
a
piece of stiff plastic and an Xacto knife. So we're not talking precision
here.

What would help (if its available) is the manufacturer's specifications
for
the key blank and pin heights. I'm not a locksmith, but I'm guessing that
the pin heights are set by some integer value times an offset in mm, or
based upon a lookup value. If I had this, then I could correct my
measurements to the nearest correct spec value. Otherwise, I'll just cut
the key to my measurements.

So, my question is: Where might this info be available? I understand that
high security lock manufacturers don't release this kind of info on a
non-restricted basis. But I'm guessing that a 1979 auto isn't exactly the
same as a safety deposit box.

Any other advice would be appreciated as well.

--
Paul Hovnanian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928
whose ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively)
unworn key kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a
master for making duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good
condition, as the one good key operates all of them easily. But I
don't want to start using this last key, as once it is worn out,
that'll be the end of making a duplicate with a pattern copyer.
However, due to the 'strange' design of old Porsche keys, no local
locksmiths can duplicate these on standard equipment. The cost of
having a new key made from the VIN number, or by a specialty
locksmith is on the order of $150 to $200.

Although the keys are of an unusual configuration, they don't appear
to be that difficult to make on a mini-mill. I can measure the one
good key and probably make a workable copy. I'm guessing that key
tolerances can't be terribly close. My worn keys are visibly
different from the good one (10 to 20 thousandths off, I'm guessing)
and still 'sort of' work. Even high security locks (Medeco) have been
hacked by people with a photo of a key, a piece of stiff plastic and
an Xacto knife. So we're not talking precision here.

What would help (if its available) is the manufacturer's
specifications for the key blank and pin heights. I'm not a
locksmith, but I'm guessing that the pin heights are set by some
integer value times an offset in mm, or based upon a lookup value. If
I had this, then I could correct my measurements to the nearest
correct spec value. Otherwise, I'll just cut the key to my
measurements.

So, my question is: Where might this info be available? I understand
that high security lock manufacturers don't release this kind of info
on a non-restricted basis. But I'm guessing that a 1979 auto isn't
exactly the same as a safety deposit box.

Any other advice would be appreciated as well.


Well...

per this note: http://key-men.com/shopping/show_key.php?catnum=HF52P

I'm willing to bet the 45 degree cuts are clearance to fit the hole
and that there are pins on one side only.

alt.locksmithing is as good a place as any to ask.

wws

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
"Steve W." wrote:
Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928 whose
ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively) unworn key
kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a master for making
duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good condition, as the one good key
operates all of them easily. But I don't want to start using this last key,
as once it is worn out, that'll be the end of making a duplicate with a
pattern copyer. However, due to the 'strange' design of old Porsche keys,
no local locksmiths can duplicate these on standard equipment. The cost of
having a new key made from the VIN number, or by a specialty locksmith is
on the order of $150 to $200.
In other words none of the folks you have gone to so far are very
knowledgeable. ANY key can be cut, maybe you need a manual machine, a
hand press or even a key file to cut one but a good smith can cut that key.

Does it use the same key for ALL locks on the vehicle?

Yes.

If yes you could
remove one of the least used locks (passenger side or trunk lid are
usually MUCH less worn than the ignition switch) Now take THAT lock to a
locksmith and have them cut your new keys to fit it. The catch with this
is that SOME manufacturers don't use ALL the key cuts for those locks.
That is easy to determine and the smith could cut those locations based
on your "good" key.

Right. Every local locksmith has quoted me in the $150 to $200 range.
According to the local Porsche club, they just send the job out to one
of a few outfits with the specialized cutting equipment. I could do the
same. Or send my VIN number to the factory for a similar price.

You must have a bunch who look at that blank and see Porsche = Money
instead of key + blank + cutting = Happy(repeat?)Customer



Although the keys are of an unusual configuration, they don't appear to be
that difficult to make on a mini-mill. I can measure the one good key and
probably make a workable copy. I'm guessing that key tolerances can't be
terribly close. My worn keys are visibly different from the good one (10 to
20 thousandths off, I'm guessing) and still 'sort of' work. Even high
security locks (Medeco) have been hacked by people with a photo of a key, a
piece of stiff plastic and an Xacto knife. So we're not talking precision
here.

What would help (if its available) is the manufacturer's specifications for
the key blank and pin heights. I'm not a locksmith, but I'm guessing that
the pin heights are set by some integer value times an offset in mm, or
based upon a lookup value. If I had this, then I could correct my
measurements to the nearest correct spec value. Otherwise, I'll just cut
the key to my measurements.
Actually they are simply cut pins. They vary in length by a set value
depending on the locks manufacturer. What will trip you up is that some
use special diameters OR mushroom pins. The common pins are .003 or .005
based.

Nope. The cuts are made at 45 degrees to the side of the key. The depths
of the cut at each position vary such that each pin is depressed both
vertically and laterally. Or there's a pin facing each side of the key
at that 45 degree angle.

Doesn't change the type of pins, just the location in the cylinder.
Not a problem, You only need a machine that can have the blank carriers
adjusted. Not real hard.


So, my question is: Where might this info be available? I understand that
high security lock manufacturers don't release this kind of info on a
non-restricted basis. But I'm guessing that a 1979 auto isn't exactly the
same as a safety deposit box.
http://www.clksupplies.com/shop/inde...Path=24_59_191
may have your blank, if not I would bet you can get a blank that will
fit easy enough.


Blanks are about $30 each online. Its the cutter that is hard to come
by.

Buy the blanks and a set of key files and cut them by hand. I have cut
more than a couple keys by hand. Great skill to have.


I suppose this seems like a lot of work to go through to save $150. But
then if I applied that logic to every project I've undertaken, I'd never
have bought my first tool.


Any other advice would be appreciated as well.

--
Steve W.



--
Steve W.

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 12:27:25 -0800, the infamous "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
scrawled the following:

I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928 whose

I've driven a nice little 928 on the freeway at 125mph and it was a
true joy to drive. They were Porsche's best vehicles. The rest are
just oversexed VWs. harrumpf


ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively) unworn key
kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a master for making
duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good condition, as the one good key
operates all of them easily. But I don't want to start using this last key,
as once it is worn out, that'll be the end of making a duplicate with a
pattern copyer. However, due to the 'strange' design of old Porsche keys,
no local locksmiths can duplicate these on standard equipment. The cost of
having a new key made from the VIN number, or by a specialty locksmith is
on the order of $150 to $200.

Although the keys are of an unusual configuration, they don't appear to be
that difficult to make on a mini-mill. I can measure the one good key and
probably make a workable copy. I'm guessing that key tolerances can't be
terribly close. My worn keys are visibly different from the good one (10 to
20 thousandths off, I'm guessing) and still 'sort of' work. Even high
security locks (Medeco) have been hacked by people with a photo of a key, a
piece of stiff plastic and an Xacto knife. So we're not talking precision
here.

Well, 10 to 20 thou can be a hefty distance for shear-pin movement,
which tumbler pins are. I did the Belsaw locksmithing course back in
the early 80s but they didn't have that type of key available in the
course way back when.


What would help (if its available) is the manufacturer's specifications for
the key blank and pin heights. I'm not a locksmith, but I'm guessing that
the pin heights are set by some integer value times an offset in mm, or
based upon a lookup value. If I had this, then I could correct my
measurements to the nearest correct spec value. Otherwise, I'll just cut
the key to my measurements.

You could likely measure the depths on the master/unused key with a
small ball bearing, Paul.


So, my question is: Where might this info be available? I understand that
high security lock manufacturers don't release this kind of info on a
non-restricted basis. But I'm guessing that a 1979 auto isn't exactly the
same as a safety deposit box.

Any other advice would be appreciated as well.

So no local locksmiths were able to help? Are you able to find actual
blanks for it, or are you considering making one from scratch? Will
you be using januwine German Billet Brass for it? bseg

I doubt that Porsche would even give you the time of day, other than
possibly saying "Oh, just buy a new Boxster and throw that old relic
away." Pffft!

If you are able to talk to a local Porsche guy (better yet, a
mechanic), maybe they can tell you who does keys for that dealer.

--
I'm still waiting for another sublime, transcendent flash of adequacy.
--Winnie of RCM

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 12:27:25 -0800, the infamous "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
scrawled the following:

I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928 whose

I've driven a nice little 928 on the freeway at 125mph and it was a
true joy to drive. They were Porsche's best vehicles. The rest are
just oversexed VWs. harrumpf

ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively) unworn key
kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a master for making
duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good condition, as the one good key
operates all of them easily. But I don't want to start using this last key,
as once it is worn out, that'll be the end of making a duplicate with a
pattern copyer. However, due to the 'strange' design of old Porsche keys,
no local locksmiths can duplicate these on standard equipment. The cost of
having a new key made from the VIN number, or by a specialty locksmith is
on the order of $150 to $200.

Although the keys are of an unusual configuration, they don't appear to be
that difficult to make on a mini-mill. I can measure the one good key and
probably make a workable copy. I'm guessing that key tolerances can't be
terribly close. My worn keys are visibly different from the good one (10 to
20 thousandths off, I'm guessing) and still 'sort of' work. Even high
security locks (Medeco) have been hacked by people with a photo of a key, a
piece of stiff plastic and an Xacto knife. So we're not talking precision
here.

Well, 10 to 20 thou can be a hefty distance for shear-pin movement,
which tumbler pins are. I did the Belsaw locksmithing course back in
the early 80s but they didn't have that type of key available in the
course way back when.

What would help (if its available) is the manufacturer's specifications for
the key blank and pin heights. I'm not a locksmith, but I'm guessing that
the pin heights are set by some integer value times an offset in mm, or
based upon a lookup value. If I had this, then I could correct my
measurements to the nearest correct spec value. Otherwise, I'll just cut
the key to my measurements.

You could likely measure the depths on the master/unused key with a
small ball bearing, Paul.

So, my question is: Where might this info be available? I understand that
high security lock manufacturers don't release this kind of info on a
non-restricted basis. But I'm guessing that a 1979 auto isn't exactly the
same as a safety deposit box.

Any other advice would be appreciated as well.

So no local locksmiths were able to help? Are you able to find actual
blanks for it, or are you considering making one from scratch?

I can find the blanks online. And I have found outfits that will
duplicate a key (none locally in the Seattle area). I just thought I'd
like to take a crack at making one myself.

Having the actual dimensions in hand would help in producing a better
product.

Will
you be using januwine German Billet Brass for it? bseg

I doubt that Porsche would even give you the time of day, other than
possibly saying "Oh, just buy a new Boxster and throw that old relic
away." Pffft!

Actually, they are pretty good at supporting vehicles of that era (and
older).


If you are able to talk to a local Porsche guy (better yet, a
mechanic), maybe they can tell you who does keys for that dealer.

They send them out.

--
I'm still waiting for another sublime, transcendent flash of adequacy.
--Winnie of RCM

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Bumper sticker: You're too close for missiles. Switching to guns.

wws wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928
whose ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively)
unworn key kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a
master for making duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good
condition, as the one good key operates all of them easily. But I
don't want to start using this last key, as once it is worn out,
that'll be the end of making a duplicate with a pattern copyer.
However, due to the 'strange' design of old Porsche keys, no local
locksmiths can duplicate these on standard equipment. The cost of
having a new key made from the VIN number, or by a specialty
locksmith is on the order of $150 to $200.

Although the keys are of an unusual configuration, they don't appear
to be that difficult to make on a mini-mill. I can measure the one
good key and probably make a workable copy. I'm guessing that key
tolerances can't be terribly close. My worn keys are visibly
different from the good one (10 to 20 thousandths off, I'm guessing)
and still 'sort of' work. Even high security locks (Medeco) have been
hacked by people with a photo of a key, a piece of stiff plastic and
an Xacto knife. So we're not talking precision here.

What would help (if its available) is the manufacturer's
specifications for the key blank and pin heights. I'm not a
locksmith, but I'm guessing that the pin heights are set by some
integer value times an offset in mm, or based upon a lookup value. If
I had this, then I could correct my measurements to the nearest
correct spec value. Otherwise, I'll just cut the key to my
measurements.

So, my question is: Where might this info be available? I understand
that high security lock manufacturers don't release this kind of info
on a non-restricted basis. But I'm guessing that a 1979 auto isn't
exactly the same as a safety deposit box.

Any other advice would be appreciated as well.

Well...

per this note: http://key-men.com/shopping/show_key.php?catnum=HF52P

I'm willing to bet the 45 degree cuts are clearance to fit the hole
and that there are pins on one side only.

Nope. I addition to the 45 degree chamfers shown on the keyhole cross
section, the cuts made
for the pins are made on each corner of the key at 45 degree angles.

The result is a set of ridges that not only vary up and down (like they
do on a standard house key) but, when viewed from the top, from side to
side.

alt.locksmithing is as good a place as any to ask.

Thanks. I'll give that a try.

wws

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Free the Mallocs!

On 2009-02-15, Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
I've got an interesting project in mind. I have a 1979 Porsche 928 whose
ignition keys are on their last legs. I have one (relatively) unworn key
kept in reserve with the idea that it could be used as a master for making
duplicates. The locks all seem to be in good condition, as the one good key
operates all of them easily. But I don't want to start using this last key,
as once it is worn out, that'll be the end of making a duplicate with a
pattern copyer. However, due to the 'strange' design of old Porsche keys,
no local locksmiths can duplicate these on standard equipment. The cost of
having a new key made from the VIN number, or by a specialty locksmith is
on the order of $150 to $200.

O.K. From a VIN number, they are charging for the cost of the
books in which they look up the key codes.

What do the Porche keys look like? A friend has a Lexis, and
the keys for that are a wandering groove down the middle of each side.
Those are obviously more difficult to cut on a standard duplicator. The
optimum thing would be a small CNC mill and a program describing the
key's cut.

Although the keys are of an unusual configuration, they don't appear to be
that difficult to make on a mini-mill. I can measure the one good key and
probably make a workable copy. I'm guessing that key tolerances can't be
terribly close. My worn keys are visibly different from the good one (10 to
20 thousandths off, I'm guessing) and still 'sort of' work.

Standard pin-tumbler licks and keys only care about the bottom
of the 'V's. The peaks don't matter at all, as the bullet-nosed pins
all rest in the bottom of those 'V's. It is possible to file off the
peaks and have an almost smooth key if the pin levels are close enough
to each other.

IIRC, the old Yale (and other US made locks) had pins which had
lengths in steps of 0.050" as could be most easily told by measuring a
few "master disks" (used to make a lock work with two different heights
on a single pin allowing both a user and a master key to be used.)

Even high
security locks (Medeco) have been hacked by people with a photo of a key, a
piece of stiff plastic and an Xacto knife. So we're not talking precision
here.

The Medco locks *appear* to have either pins coming in at two
different angles, or with angled chisel points which will fit a normal
key only when the groove is both the right depth and the right slope
(left or right slope). I've never had a chance to take a Medco lock
apart to verify this, however.

What would help (if its available) is the manufacturer's specifications for
the key blank and pin heights.

Does this use the usual pins and notches?

O.K. if this is a 928, a web search led me to this posting on
the "Pelican Parts Technical BBS":

================================================== ====================
928 keys are cut at a 45 degree angle, and less than a dozen places
worldwide have been posted in other threads that can reliably cut a key.
If none of them are local to you, then www.keys4classics.com can cut a
key for you from a couple good pictures of your key.
================================================== ====================

It looks as though they will sell the blanks themselves, and if
you have access to a key duplicator and a bit of time you could make an
alternative key holder pair which would hold them at the required 45
degree angle, instead of the straight ahead angle normally used.

I'm not a locksmith, but I'm guessing that
the pin heights are set by some integer value times an offset in mm,

For the Porche, very likely. For US keys, the offset will
likely be in decimal fractions of an inch.

or
based upon a lookup value. If I had this, then I could correct my
measurements to the nearest correct spec value. Otherwise, I'll just cut
the key to my measurements.

Without a Porche key to see, I'll have to pass on how difficult
it would be to make, but if the quote from the BBS above is right, the
main problem is cutting the notches at 45 degrees to the key's surface,
instead of the usual 90 degrees. (And the Medco ones appear to be dual
45 degrees -- alternating between right and left angles.

So, my question is: Where might this info be available? I understand that
high security lock manufacturers don't release this kind of info on a
non-restricted basis. But I'm guessing that a 1979 auto isn't exactly the
same as a safety deposit box.

Actually -- is is typically a better design than a safety
deposit box, which is just a warded key lever tumbler lock, albeit one
with more than the usual number of wards and tumblers.

Any other advice would be appreciated as well.

You should be able to make the typical key blank with a small
horizontal miller with a stack of just the right straight and angled
cutters installed on the arbor, and something to key off the cuts on the
first side while you make the cuts on the second side. Once you have
something which will slide into the keyway of the lock and not wobble
more than your as-new key, it is then time to try cutting at the desired
angles -- either with a modified key duplicator, or the same horizontal
mill with very careful setup and a jig to hold the key at the needed 45
degree angle.

The depth of the cuts is typically related to the position of
the grooves along the key's length, not the bottom or top edges.

What I would do, if faced with this problem is to try to pick up
a Porche ignition lock of the right design, and work my way through
opening it to modify it to fit your pattern key, so you can easily test
the duplicates which you make without having to walk out to the Porche
for each test. (Or is it kept in your shop, so the distance is short? :-)

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:

big snip

another good source of this kind of info is the tech discussion section of
Rennlist, also pelican parts has a good tech discussion section.

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
The result is a set of ridges that not only vary up and down (like
they do on a standard house key) but, when viewed from the top, from
side to side.

alt.locksmithing is as good a place as any to ask.

Thanks. I'll give that a try.

wws

Did you miss Roger Shoaf's post ? He said he has the blanks and equipment
, and will cut them for you ... he's in Sacramento .
--
Snag
every answer
leads to another
question

On 16 Feb 2009 05:40:15 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


What I would do, if faced with this problem is to try to pick up
a Porche ignition lock of the right design, and work my way through
opening it to modify it to fit your pattern key, so you can easily test
the duplicates which you make without having to walk out to the Porche
for each test. (Or is it kept in your shop, so the distance is short? :-)


If this were mine, Id bypass the ignition switch and put in something
different

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 19:01:39 -0800, the infamous "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:
--snip--
So no local locksmiths were able to help? Are you able to find actual
blanks for it, or are you considering making one from scratch?

I can find the blanks online. And I have found outfits that will
duplicate a key (none locally in the Seattle area). I just thought I'd
like to take a crack at making one myself.

Having the actual dimensions in hand would help in producing a better
product.

Yes, it would, but copying a blank precisely would do the same thing.


Will
you be using januwine German Billet Brass for it? bseg

I doubt that Porsche would even give you the time of day, other than
possibly saying "Oh, just buy a new Boxster and throw that old relic
away." Pffft!

Actually, they are pretty good at supporting vehicles of that era (and
older).

Ah, the "antique" parts have higher margins, eh?


If you are able to talk to a local Porsche guy (better yet, a
mechanic), maybe they can tell you who does keys for that dealer.

They send them out.

I figured that, but is the locksmith local?

IAC, you'll probably have Roger make it for you unless you
specifically want the experience of doing it.

--
I'm still waiting for another sublime, transcendent flash of adequacy.
--Winnie of RCM

Gunner Asch wrote:

If this were mine, Id bypass the ignition switch and put in something
different

Gunner


Absolutely! A hidden switch under the dash. That is
what I did with a Berkly back a bunch of years ago.
Not because it was a nasty key but because all you
had to do to defeat the key was reach behind the
dash and squeeze the two screw terminals together
to turn it on. :-) The car got stolen in Mich while
I was at a short course there.
...lew...

Terry Coombs wrote:

Did you miss Roger Shoaf's post

Terry, you don't understand how things are around here. You have to make
the first, _then_ you can buy the rest. It is the cost of education. No
one likes to have their task held hostage by those with "secret" knowlege.


Kevin Gallimore

Terry Coombs wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
The result is a set of ridges that not only vary up and down (like
they do on a standard house key) but, when viewed from the top, from
side to side.

alt.locksmithing is as good a place as any to ask.

Thanks. I'll give that a try.

wws

Did you miss Roger Shoaf's post ? He said he has the blanks and
equipment
, and will cut them for you ... he's in Sacramento .

That's a bit far away for me to be sending my last good key. And I'd like to
try making one myself, just for the fun of it.

That's why I've got a workshop full of neat tools.

--
Paul Hovnanian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:25:39 -0700, Lew Hartswick
wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:

If this were mine, Id bypass the ignition switch and put in something
different

Absolutely! A hidden switch under the dash. That is
what I did with a Berkly back a bunch of years ago.
Not because it was a nasty key but because all you
had to do to defeat the key was reach behind the
dash and squeeze the two screw terminals together
to turn it on. :-) The car got stolen in Mich while
I was at a short course there.

Yanno, you can replace the ignition switch with something a bit
better than what it had, instead of a bit worse...

Cole-Hersee makes replacement ignition lock and sweitch assemblies
you can use, and you can armor the backside to foil the 'reach
underneath and squeeze' cheat. They would have to systematically jump
the circuits which is neither fast nor easy.

There are much more secure key locks available, but the hard part is
rigging the contacts - they are usually 1 Amp or 3 Amp "pilot duty",
meaning you have to wire up relays for everything. And add a push
button for the Starter.

If you could mate a good Medeco or Ace or Best exchange cylinder to
a Cole-Hersee type switch assembly, that would be nirvana. Pick
resistant yet easy to install.

-- Bruce --

axolotl wrote:
Terry Coombs wrote:

Did you miss Roger Shoaf's post

Terry, you don't understand how things are around here. You have to
make the first, _then_ you can buy the rest. It is the cost of
education. No one likes to have their task held hostage by those with
"secret" knowlege.

Kevin Gallimore

And I'd bet you said this before Paul posted his reply ... I too like to
do it myself , but realize some things just ain't worth my effort .
Now if y'all will excuse me , the solid-fuel booster in my back yard just
set an error code . Can't have those things lightin' off just anywhere , ya
know !
--
Snag
every answer
leads to another
question

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote: (clip) And I'd like to
try making one myself, just for the fun of it.

That's why I've got a workshop full of neat tools.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Then why don't you find a nice lock and key set and adapt your Porsche to
it?

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:06:37 -0800, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote:

Terry Coombs wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
The result is a set of ridges that not only vary up and down (like
they do on a standard house key) but, when viewed from the top, from
side to side.

alt.locksmithing is as good a place as any to ask.

Thanks. I'll give that a try.

wws

Did you miss Roger Shoaf's post ? He said he has the blanks and
equipment
, and will cut them for you ... he's in Sacramento .

That's a bit far away for me to be sending my last good key. And I'd like to
try making one myself, just for the fun of it.

That's why I've got a workshop full of neat tools.

Yeah, but you'll spend $1,000 on tooling and waste lots of time just
to make a $40 key. If you have that much money to waste, I can think
of several more pressing things to do with it. Mail order something
from "Gunner's Stacks O' Stuff Emporium" for openers.

Even if this is your only car and daily driver, you said you have
two or three "Sorta Good" keys - Overnight the best key to Roger
(Insured, naturally) and have him Overnight the copies back, and the
keys will be back in your hands inside a week.

The odds of both the worn keys finally failing at once is pretty
slim - the old "Wiggle it to the left, then pull out while turning"
trick will just get a little finickier over the period of a week...

And if it's the lock cylinder failing, the good key wouldn't work in
the cylinder either. That's when you yank the German POS and get a
Cole-Hersee ignition lock switch. Or Roger might have other
suggestions, since he's in the biz and sees this more often.

-- Bruce --

On 2009-02-16, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 16 Feb 2009 05:40:15 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


What I would do, if faced with this problem is to try to pick up
a Porche ignition lock of the right design, and work my way through
opening it to modify it to fit your pattern key, so you can easily test
the duplicates which you make without having to walk out to the Porche
for each test. (Or is it kept in your shop, so the distance is short? :-)


If this were mine, Id bypass the ignition switch and put in something
different

Hmm ... you live where Porches aren't as likely to evaporate if
you don't have a good ignition lock? :-)

Or -- you don't have a Porche. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
diainc...

That's a bit far away for me to be sending my last good key. And I'd like
to
try making one myself, just for the fun of it.

That's why I've got a workshop full of neat tools.

--
Paul Hovnanian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.

Paul,

Did you get the spec's I sent you for cutting your key?


--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
m...
Gunner Asch wrote:

If this were mine, Id bypass the ignition switch and put in something
different

Gunner


Absolutely! A hidden switch under the dash. That is
what I did with a Berkly back a bunch of years ago.
Not because it was a nasty key but because all you
had to do to defeat the key was reach behind the
dash and squeeze the two screw terminals together
to turn it on. :-) The car got stolen in Mich while
I was at a short course there.
...lew...

so, you would take a nice car, with collector value, and butcher it the
ignition switch to save a few dollars on a key? how the heck does that make
any sense? It's like taking a oxyacetlyne torch to your bridgeport to
remove a stuck gib.

Would love to see a photo of the key to get a better idea of what it is you
are up against.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com

V8013-R

Roger Shoaf wrote:
Paul I am a locksmith, and I have the blanks and the equipment to duplicate
these keys. Our regular price is $40 each.

Our shop is in Sacramento, CA.

Roger, do you ever get over to Davis? My longtime
favorite locksmith, Wallace Safe and Lock in Woodland
seems to be out of business and I need some work
done.

Roger Shoaf wrote:

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
diainc...

That's a bit far away for me to be sending my last good key. And I'd like
to
try making one myself, just for the fun of it.

That's why I've got a workshop full of neat tools.

--
Paul Hovnanian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.

Paul,

Did you get the spec's I sent you for cutting your key?


Yes, Thanks.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
If Mama Cass had just split that ham sandwich with Karen Carpenter,
they'd both be alive today.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 19:01:39 -0800, the infamous "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:
--snip--
So no local locksmiths were able to help? Are you able to find actual
blanks for it, or are you considering making one from scratch?

I can find the blanks online. And I have found outfits that will
duplicate a key (none locally in the Seattle area). I just thought I'd
like to take a crack at making one myself.

Having the actual dimensions in hand would help in producing a better
product.

Yes, it would, but copying a blank precisely would do the same thing.

Not of the original is worn or not made to spec in the first place. The
best key would be made by sending the VIN to the manufacturer and having
one cut to the specified bitting.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Will code for food.

Gunner Asch wrote:

On 16 Feb 2009 05:40:15 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


What I would do, if faced with this problem is to try to pick up
a Porche ignition lock of the right design, and work my way through
opening it to modify it to fit your pattern key, so you can easily test
the duplicates which you make without having to walk out to the Porche
for each test. (Or is it kept in your shop, so the distance is short? :-)

If this were mine, Id bypass the ignition switch and put in something
different

The ignition lock works with the bad key. Its getting worn to the point
that it'll work with darn near anything pretty soon :-/.

Its getting the doors open that's causing problems. The drivers door
lock is pretty loose, but the bad key won't open the passenger door (not
a terrible problem, as the car has a working central locking system).
The hatchback is also pretty stiff.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
It's easier said than done.
.... and if you don't believe it, try proving that it's easier done than
said, and you'll see that it's easier said that `it's easier done than
said' than it is done, which really proves that it's easier said than
done.

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
...
Gunner Asch wrote:

On 16 Feb 2009 05:40:15 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


What I would do, if faced with this problem is to try to pick up
a Porche ignition lock of the right design, and work my way through
opening it to modify it to fit your pattern key, so you can easily test
the duplicates which you make without having to walk out to the Porche
for each test. (Or is it kept in your shop, so the distance is short?
:-)

If this were mine, Id bypass the ignition switch and put in something
different

The ignition lock works with the bad key. Its getting worn to the point
that it'll work with darn near anything pretty soon :-/.

Its getting the doors open that's causing problems. The drivers door
lock is pretty loose, but the bad key won't open the passenger door (not
a terrible problem, as the car has a working central locking system).
The hatchback is also pretty stiff.

--
Paul Hovnanian


you are aware that the porsche door handles and your hatchback lock were
greased at the factory, and the grease gets hard - some refreshing of the
grease in both places is needed or you will have failed parts to replace.

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...


you are aware that the porsche door handles and your hatchback lock were
greased at the factory, and the grease gets hard - some refreshing of the
grease in both places is needed or you will have failed parts to replace.



You evidently have not been reading Paul's posts. He has two keys one that
works good and one that works poorly due to wear. If stiff grease was the
problem then neither key would work well.


--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...


you are aware that the porsche door handles and your hatchback lock were
greased at the factory, and the grease gets hard - some refreshing of the
grease in both places is needed or you will have failed parts to replace.



You evidently have not been reading Paul's posts. He has two keys one
that
works good and one that works poorly due to wear. If stiff grease was the
problem then neither key would work well.


--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube,
then
they come up with this striped stuff.



ok, message received, I'll stay out of this despite 30 plus years of
owning/working on such cars - I am sure you know better.

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...

"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...


you are aware that the porsche door handles and your hatchback lock
were
greased at the factory, and the grease gets hard - some refreshing of
the
grease in both places is needed or you will have failed parts to
replace.



You evidently have not been reading Paul's posts. He has two keys one
that
works good and one that works poorly due to wear. If stiff grease was
the
problem then neither key would work well.


--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube,
then
they come up with this striped stuff.



ok, message received, I'll stay out of this despite 30 plus years of
owning/working on such cars - I am sure you know better.



Bill,

I was not trying to insult you, as a matter of general advice, you were
correct in your observation about sticky grease in car locks causes grief
that is simple to resolve.

A worn out key however is not a problem that can be resolved with
lubrication. If you think a key for a 948 is pricey, you ought to see the
price for the locks, and the labor time for replacing an ignition lock.



--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

Joe AutoDrill wrote:

Would love to see a photo of the key to get a better idea of what it is you
are up against.

I'd post one somewhere, but my digital camera has a crappy macro mode.
The closest shot of the key is too far away to see much of anything.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Bloody typical, they've gone back to metric without telling us.

On 17 Feb 2009 04:01:29 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2009-02-16, Gunner Asch wrote:
On 16 Feb 2009 05:40:15 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:


What I would do, if faced with this problem is to try to pick up
a Porche ignition lock of the right design, and work my way through
opening it to modify it to fit your pattern key, so you can easily test
the duplicates which you make without having to walk out to the Porche
for each test. (Or is it kept in your shop, so the distance is short? :-)


If this were mine, Id bypass the ignition switch and put in something
different

Hmm ... you live where Porches aren't as likely to evaporate if
you don't have a good ignition lock? :-)

Or -- you don't have a Porche. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

I work where anything with tools in it tends to wind up in Mexico.

The last thing I depend on is Only an ignition lock. G

That big E350 Ford van that everyone told me to pass on...runs fine
btw..and has the ignition lock, an under the dash kill switch, an alarm
and a keycard reader G

The alarm kills the fuel pump in 2 minutes if its not deactivated as
well.

Gunner


Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

Gunner Asch writes:


The alarm kills the fuel pump in 2 minutes if its not deactivated as
well.

There's a school of thought that says 30s - 2 min is the right idea.
Get them out into traffic and THEN stall dead...and stay that way.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433