I asked this tangentally in another post, but it seems to have gotten
lost, so I'm asking directly. Sorry if this is the second time you've
seen it.

I've got an Index model 40 mill that has been having some pulley problems.
To resolve them, I'm going to be switching over to controlling the speed
with a VFD. It has a 110V 1HP 1P 1700rpm motor on it now. I've got a
220V 3P 1700 motor I can use on it, but it will take some modifications on
the motor mounting. I can make them, but if I could avoid doing do, it
would be nicer.

So..is there such a thing as a 110V or 220V single phase in, and 110V
single phase out VFD? Are they resonably priced? And can somebody point
me to them?

I can get a regular 220V single phase in, 3 phase out VFD for under $100.

Thanks!

On 2009-02-09, Todd Rich wrote:
So..is there such a thing as a 110V or 220V single phase in, and 110V
single phase out VFD? Are they resonably priced? And can somebody point
me to them?

Absolutely not.

You cannot vary the speed of a regular capacitor start single phase
motor.

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Ignoramus17377 wrote:
On 2009-02-09, Todd Rich wrote:
So..is there such a thing as a 110V or 220V single phase in, and 110V
single phase out VFD? Are they resonably priced? And can somebody point
me to them?

Absolutely not.

You cannot vary the speed of a regular capacitor start single phase
motor.

That was what I suspected. Looks like I'll be making the modifications.

Thank you.

On Feb 9, 10:16*am, Ignoramus17377 ignoramus17...@NOSPAM.
17377.invalid wrote:
On 2009-02-09, Todd Rich wrote:

So..is there such a thing as a 110V or 220V single phase in, and 110V
single phase out VFD? *Are they resonably priced? *And can somebody point
me to them?

Absolutely not.

You cannot vary the speed of a regular capacitor start single phase
motor.

--
* *Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
* * * to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
* * * *from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
* * * * *more readers you will need to find a different means of
* * * * * * * * * * * *posting on Usenet.
* * * * * * * * * *http://improve-usenet.org/

What happens to these motors when you increase the frequency of the
supply ? I can envision them frying at lower freq.

On 2009-02-09, Todd Rich wrote:
Ignoramus17377 wrote:
On 2009-02-09, Todd Rich wrote:
So..is there such a thing as a 110V or 220V single phase in, and 110V
single phase out VFD? Are they resonably priced? And can somebody point
me to them?

Absolutely not.

You cannot vary the speed of a regular capacitor start single phase
motor.

That was what I suspected. Looks like I'll be making the modifications.

Thank you.


There are some single phase motors where you can vary speed by varying
voltage. These are sometimes used in home A/C systems as centrifugal
blowers. These are bottom of the barrel motors that are only suited
for stuff like centrifugal pumps, as they have a minimal starting
torque. You would not normally see one on a mill.

I have a brand new 2 HP C-face 3 phase motor that I can sell to you,
could be too much for your mill though.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Ignoramus17377 wrote:
(snip)
There are some single phase motors where you can vary speed by varying
voltage. These are sometimes used in home A/C systems as centrifugal
blowers. These are bottom of the barrel motors that are only suited
for stuff like centrifugal pumps, as they have a minimal starting
torque. You would not normally see one on a mill.

I have a brand new 2 HP C-face 3 phase motor that I can sell to you,
could be too much for your mill though.

Well, this is the motor that is on it now.
http://www.marathonelectric.com/MMPS...em=056C17F5327

And this is the motor I own that I was going to replace it with
http://www.marathonelectric.com/MMPS...em=056H17T5302
As you can see, this one is also a C-face motor. And the C-face is what
is causing me to need to make the modifications.

This is what the current motor mount looks like:
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ill/shop03.png

(more photos of the current setup he
http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u...in3/shop/mill/ )

I've got about 1/2" to 3/4" that I'd need to cut into the side webbing to
let the motor fit in the same spot, since the C-Face extends just a bit
longer at the OD than the motor that is currently on there.

Both the links I posted for the motors have dimensional drawings linked to
them.

On 2009-02-09, Todd Rich wrote:
Ignoramus17377 wrote:
(snip)
There are some single phase motors where you can vary speed by varying
voltage. These are sometimes used in home A/C systems as centrifugal
blowers. These are bottom of the barrel motors that are only suited
for stuff like centrifugal pumps, as they have a minimal starting
torque. You would not normally see one on a mill.

I have a brand new 2 HP C-face 3 phase motor that I can sell to you,
could be too much for your mill though.

Well, this is the motor that is on it now.
http://www.marathonelectric.com/MMPS...em=056C17F5327

And this is the motor I own that I was going to replace it with
http://www.marathonelectric.com/MMPS...em=056H17T5302
As you can see, this one is also a C-face motor. And the C-face is what
is causing me to need to make the modifications.

This is what the current motor mount looks like:
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ill/shop03.png

(more photos of the current setup he
http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u...in3/shop/mill/ )

I've got about 1/2" to 3/4" that I'd need to cut into the side webbing to
let the motor fit in the same spot, since the C-Face extends just a bit
longer at the OD than the motor that is currently on there.

Both the links I posted for the motors have dimensional drawings linked to
them.



Todd, why not use a foot mounted 3 phase motor?

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Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
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from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
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On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 14:57:37 +0000 (UTC), Todd Rich
wrote:

I asked this tangentally in another post, but it seems to have gotten
lost, so I'm asking directly. Sorry if this is the second time you've
seen it.

I've got an Index model 40 mill that has been having some pulley problems.
To resolve them, I'm going to be switching over to controlling the speed
with a VFD. It has a 110V 1HP 1P 1700rpm motor on it now. I've got a
220V 3P 1700 motor I can use on it, but it will take some modifications on
the motor mounting. I can make them, but if I could avoid doing do, it
would be nicer.

So..is there such a thing as a 110V or 220V single phase in, and 110V
single phase out VFD? Are they resonably priced? And can somebody point
me to them?

No...there are not. The very dynamics of single phase motors prevent
VFDs from working them. The closest you can come is using a DC motor.

I can get a regular 220V single phase in, 3 phase out VFD for under $100.

Thanks!


If you have an issue with making a motor adapter plate, draw a clear and
accurate print or sketch, and mail/email it to me, and Ill built you
one, free. Simply pay the shipping. Ive got the time...sigh..and the
shop G and the materials BG

Ill make it exactly as you draw it..so draw carefuly. G

Based on the photos of your mill, its really pretty much of a no brainer
to make up an adapter.



Gunner

"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."

Ignoramus17377 wrote:
(snip)
Todd, why not use a foot mounted 3 phase motor?

Because this is the motor I have on hand and I'm trying to keep expenses
as low as possible. I could have just replaced the pulleys for $340. As
it is, I'm looking at $99 for the VFD, and the electricity to run the
grinder to cut the notches, and maybe another $20 from McMaster for the
second pulley.

On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 16:21:52 +0000 (UTC), Todd Rich
wrote:


I've got about 1/2" to 3/4" that I'd need to cut into the side webbing to
let the motor fit in the same spot, since the C-Face extends just a bit
longer at the OD than the motor that is currently on there.

Thats not a big deal based on the photo of the side of the motor/mount

Gunner

"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 16:21:52 +0000 (UTC), Todd Rich
wrote:


I've got about 1/2" to 3/4" that I'd need to cut into the side webbing to
let the motor fit in the same spot, since the C-Face extends just a bit
longer at the OD than the motor that is currently on there.

Thats not a big deal based on the photo of the side of the motor/mount

Gunner

Thanks! Also, thank you for your offer in the other post. Cutting the
notches on this one should be quick. I should have the drive by the end
of the week, and I'll switch it over then.

I've never messed around with pulley ratios before. I'm assuing that to
figure out the final speeds on my mill, the absolute sizes don't matter,
it is the ratios of the pulleys? So my 3:1 ratio between the motor and
the middle pulley would give me a 600rpm speed there for the 1800rpm
motor? I think the middle step between the middle pulley and the spindle
is 1:1, so no adjustment there. If I'm not out on a limb, that sounds
like a pretty good baseline for having decent torque at low speeds.

Thanks, and sorry for the rambling.
Todd

Ignoramus17377 writes:


You cannot vary the speed of a regular capacitor start single phase
..........successfully....
motor.


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& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
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http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...tname=electric

Todd Rich wrote:
I asked this tangentally in another post, but it seems to have gotten
lost, so I'm asking directly. Sorry if this is the second time you've
seen it.

I've got an Index model 40 mill that has been having some pulley problems.
To resolve them, I'm going to be switching over to controlling the speed
with a VFD. It has a 110V 1HP 1P 1700rpm motor on it now. I've got a
220V 3P 1700 motor I can use on it, but it will take some modifications on
the motor mounting. I can make them, but if I could avoid doing do, it
would be nicer.

So..is there such a thing as a 110V or 220V single phase in, and 110V
single phase out VFD? Are they resonably priced? And can somebody point
me to them?

I can get a regular 220V single phase in, 3 phase out VFD for under $100.

Thanks!

On 2009-02-09, Todd Rich wrote:
I asked this tangentally in another post, but it seems to have gotten
lost, so I'm asking directly. Sorry if this is the second time you've
seen it.

I've got an Index model 40 mill that has been having some pulley problems.
To resolve them, I'm going to be switching over to controlling the speed
with a VFD. It has a 110V 1HP 1P 1700rpm motor on it now. I've got a
220V 3P 1700 motor I can use on it, but it will take some modifications on
the motor mounting. I can make them, but if I could avoid doing do, it
would be nicer.

So..is there such a thing as a 110V or 220V single phase in, and 110V
single phase out VFD?

I strongly doubt it -- because single phase motors do not really
do well with variable frequencies. Why make and try to sell something
which will not work well at all?

Are they resonably priced? And can somebody point
me to them?

You could always experiment with three phase VFD -- which won't
object to you loading it only a single phase, as long as the load
represented by the motor is within the VFD's ratings.

The most likely *serious* problem is that the VFD's output
circuits will be zapped by the centrifugal switch kicking out when the
motor is getting close to proper speed. (A three phase motor does not
have -- or need -- a centrifugal switch and starting capacitor.)

Aside from that, if you try running it at much lower speed,
(assuming that the motor starts at all), it will not kick out the
centrifugal switch (because it won't reach the speed at which that
happens) and the continuing current through the starting cap will cause
it to fail.

But the motor will not start well at either slow or high speeds,
because that is a function of the value of the capacitor. That
capacitor is designed for starting it from 60 Hz (or maybe 50 Hz, if it
is designed for UK service). Lower or higher frequencies will require
larger or smaller values of capacitance.

And the normal behavior of a VFD is to start at very low
frequencies, and ramp up at a rate which is programmed into it, based on
the mass which it needs to accelerate. This means that the capacitor
will see too low a frequency before it goes up high enough to actually
start the motor.

I can get a regular 220V single phase in, 3 phase out VFD for under $100.

Get it, play with it to convince yourself that this is a bad
idea, then go ahead and make the mounting hardware for the three phase
motor and start using the VFD the way it was designed to be used. The
worst that can happen is that you will need to replace the starting cap
in the single phase motor, and the VFD if the centrifugal switch zaps
it.

BTW Does that $100.00 VFD have the ability to drive the horsepower
of the machine's motor?

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
(snip)
Get it, play with it to convince yourself that this is a bad
idea,

Nope, I'm capible of learning by teaching. I was just making sure I
hadn't ignored an idea out of ignorance.

then go ahead and make the mounting hardware for the three phase
motor and start using the VFD the way it was designed to be used. The
worst that can happen is that you will need to replace the starting cap
in the single phase motor, and the VFD if the centrifugal switch zaps
it.

BTW Does that $100.00 VFD have the ability to drive the horsepower
of the machine's motor?

Yep. It is listed as accepting 1Ph or 3Ph input, and is rated for 1HP.
I'm putting a 1HP motor on it. I called the manufacturer, and they
assured me that it will safely run a 1HP motor when powered by
single phase power. They did warn me that it would draw more current, and
to make sure I was running the right guage wire for the higher draw.

Good Luck,
DoN.

I don't think I'll need it at this point, but given how many things keep
breaking on me, I'll take all the luck I can get.
Todd

On Feb 9, 4:44 pm, Todd Rich wrote:
Ignoramus17377 wrote:

(snip)

Todd, why not use a foot mounted 3 phase motor?

Because this is the motor I have on hand and I'm trying to keep expenses
as low as possible. I could have just replaced the pulleys for $340. As
it is, I'm looking at $99 for the VFD, and the electricity to run the
grinder to cut the notches, and maybe another $20 from McMaster for the
second pulley.

Used three phase motors are not expensive. You should be able to buy
one for about $10 or less per horse power. Businesses typically buy
new motors when they need a motor. Used three phase motors are not in
demand.

Dan

wrote:
On Feb 9, 4:44 pm, Todd Rich wrote:
Ignoramus17377 wrote:

(snip)

Todd, why not use a foot mounted 3 phase motor?

Because this is the motor I have on hand and I'm trying to keep expenses
as low as possible. I could have just replaced the pulleys for $340. As
it is, I'm looking at $99 for the VFD, and the electricity to run the
grinder to cut the notches, and maybe another $20 from McMaster for the
second pulley.

Used three phase motors are not expensive. You should be able to buy
one for about $10 or less per horse power. Businesses typically buy
new motors when they need a motor. Used three phase motors are not in
demand.

Dan

Sorry, not understanding the point here. I *have* a 3phase motor. It has
foot mountings as well as a C-face. I bought it new 2 years ago. It
might have been spending too much money, but hey, I have it now. I only
have to cut a couple of small notches to use it. I could buy a plate the
right size and thickness and drill 6 holes in it and even mount it via the
C-face. Pretty much all I'm looking at here is a little time and labor.

Todd Rich wrote:
I asked this tangentally in another post, but it seems to have gotten
lost, so I'm asking directly. Sorry if this is the second time you've
seen it.

[ ... ]

So..is there such a thing as a 110V or 220V single phase in, and 110V
single phase out VFD? Are they resonably priced? And can somebody point
me to them?

On 2009-02-10, RoyJ wrote:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.as...tname=electric

Note the caution (in red) on that web page:

================================================== ====================
NOT for use with split phase, capacitor start, repulsion induction,
universal AC/DC or any other motor with starting switch or
separate starting winding.
================================================== ====================

Which eliminates most motors in the horsepower range which Todd
is looking for.

And I had missed responding earlier to the request for 110 V
out. The three phase VFDs generally have the ability to select a
maximum output voltage much lower than the nominal one, so the output
voltage is not a problem.

I can get a regular 220V single phase in, 3 phase out VFD for under $100.

Which compared to the one in the URL above is dirt cheap. Given
that the URL is also three phase output the only benefit it has is the
ability to be run from 117 VAC input. I've got a Mitsubishi one that
does that -- but it can only handle 1/8 HP, not the 1 HP that this one
can handle.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
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DoN. Nichols wrote:
(snip)
I can get a regular 220V single phase in, 3 phase out VFD for under $100.

Which compared to the one in the URL above is dirt cheap. Given
that the URL is also three phase output the only benefit it has is the
ability to be run from 117 VAC input. I've got a Mitsubishi one that
does that -- but it can only handle 1/8 HP, not the 1 HP that this one
can handle.

Enjoy,
DoN.

Btw, I realized I hadn't posted a link to the drive I got:
http://web6.automationdirect.com/adc..._VAC)/GS2-21P0

http://tinyurl.com/ch8xjs

I own a larger version that I use on my belt grinder, so I figured I go
with the same style for familiarity. Even from the manufacturer, it is
only $165. I got it for $99 shippd sealed new in the box on Ebay. And I
did verify from Automation Direct that it will run a 1HP motor from single
phase.
Todd