If I HAD to do it, would say, 2 or 3 gallons, 50/50 gas/E-85
be destructive if tank was refilled with gas ASAP?

Effects on power, drivability, emissions?

BTW, what techical/mechanical/electronic changes are made to
a Flex-Fuel vehicle to deserve that badge?


thanks

gary

wrote:
If I HAD to do it, would say, 2 or 3 gallons, 50/50 gas/E-85
be destructive if tank was refilled with gas ASAP?

Effects on power, drivability, emissions?

BTW, what techical/mechanical/electronic changes are made to
a Flex-Fuel vehicle to deserve that badge?


thanks

gary

NOT a good idea. However it would run, not well however.
Without the proper timing and injector controls the engine runs at less
than half power and will be running VERY lean so you create a lot of
extra pollution.


The E-85 engines use a composition sensor in the fuel line to tell the
computer to use a different program table for the injectors and timing
to allow E-85 to work.

I wouldn't get to worried about E-85 though. So far 1/3 of the plants
that are making the ethanol have gone bankrupt, and more drop every day.


--
Steve W.

Steve W. wrote:
wrote:
If I HAD to do it, would say, 2 or 3 gallons, 50/50 gas/E-85
be destructive if tank was refilled with gas ASAP?

Effects on power, drivability, emissions?

BTW, what techical/mechanical/electronic changes are made to
a Flex-Fuel vehicle to deserve that badge?


thanks

gary

NOT a good idea. However it would run, not well however.
Without the proper timing and injector controls the engine runs at less
than half power and will be running VERY lean so you create a lot of
extra pollution.

In fact, so lean one would have to be VERY careful not to burn pistons
and valves. If it DID run one shouldn't drive it very far, and one
should drive it VERY easy- don't pull much power from it.

wrote:

If I HAD to do it, would say, 2 or 3 gallons, 50/50 gas/E-85
be destructive if tank was refilled with gas ASAP?


One night I had to snowblow at work and we were out of gasoline. We had some E85 test
fuel so I used it. Snowblower ran well enough to get the job done.

Assuming a modern vehical, there are 02 sensors which should notice the lean condition and
richen up the mixture somewhat.

Beats walking.

Wes

Ive heard that adding isopropanol to gas will decrease
emissions, i.e. just before a smog test.

Would E-85 have a similar effect in, say,
1 gal E-86 to 4-5 gal of gasoline?



If I HAD to do it, would say, 2 or 3 gallons, 50/50 gas/E-85
be destructive if tank was refilled with gas ASAP?

Effects on power, drivability, emissions?

BTW, what techical/mechanical/electronic changes are made to
a Flex-Fuel vehicle to deserve that badge?

Wes writes:

wrote:

If I HAD to do it, would say, 2 or 3 gallons, 50/50 gas/E-85
be destructive if tank was refilled with gas ASAP?


One night I had to snowblow at work and we were out of gasoline. We
had some E85 test fuel so I used it. Snowblower ran well enough to
get the job done.

Assuming a modern vehical, there are 02 sensors which should notice
the lean condition and richen up the mixture somewhat.

But there's a limit to how far it can compensate -- the injector might
not be able to flow enough, or the computer might just decide the O2
sensor was lying and go into a limp-home mode.

Beats walking.

Unless it means you end up walking from further away.

On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 08:26:11 -0800 (PST), wrote:

If I HAD to do it, would say, 2 or 3 gallons, 50/50 gas/E-85
be destructive if tank was refilled with gas ASAP?

Effects on power, drivability, emissions?

BTW, what techical/mechanical/electronic changes are made to
a Flex-Fuel vehicle to deserve that badge?


thanks

gary
50/50 E0 and E85 would still be E 42.5, which would cause a
non-flex-fuel engine to run VERY lean. Lean enough that driveability
would be, at best, tenuous. Power would definitely be lacking, and NOX
emissions as well as hydrocarbons would both be high. HC for sure due
to lean missfire - and NOX if you actually got it to run with enough
power to cause high combustion temps due to the lean mixture.

As for the changes, they have a sensor system to "close guess" the
ethanol content, as well as a reprogrammed ECU with wider adaptive
capacity to adjust the pulse width over a wider range to adjust the
mixture, as well as more sophisticated timing algarithms

On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 10:45:13 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Ive heard that adding isopropanol to gas will decrease
emissions, i.e. just before a smog test.

Would E-85 have a similar effect in, say,
1 gal E-86 to 4-5 gal of gasoline?



If I HAD to do it, would say, 2 or 3 gallons, 50/50 gas/E-85
be destructive if tank was refilled with gas ASAP?

Effects on power, drivability, emissions?

BTW, what techical/mechanical/electronic changes are made to
a Flex-Fuel vehicle to deserve that badge?
That's too much. WAY too much. The emission cheaters put something
like 6 oz of hooch in 15 gallons of gasoline.

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Assuming a modern vehical, there are 02 sensors which should notice
the lean condition and richen up the mixture somewhat.

But there's a limit to how far it can compensate -- the injector might
not be able to flow enough, or the computer might just decide the O2
sensor was lying and go into a limp-home mode.

That is a posibility. The mix he was talking of equates to E47.5. Cars are already
dealing with E10 and E15.

Beats walking.

Unless it means you end up walking from further away.

I hope he heads to a gas station to fill the tank with E10 or E15.

Wes

I've never heard of this, but then we've never needed to have emissions
tests around here.

I don't know if you meant isopropyl alcohol or not, but the common
grocery/drug store rubbing alcohol is isopropyl, and was often available in
more than one concentration.
Lately, all I've been able to find is 50%, but for many years, 90-92% was
readily available too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol

I don't put it in fuel, but it's a fairly decent cleaning solvent for
lightly soiled parts, and also a good additive to a water & liquid
detergent/soap mixture, to make a very effective general purpose cleaner.
I use a potion of about 66% water, 34% alcohol and very little liquid soap
(maybe 10 drops per pint) in a trigger spray bottle, for most things.. from
my glasses lenses to plastic or painted equipment cabinets, and most other
things that don't require anything harsher.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


wrote in message
...
Ive heard that adding isopropanol to gas will decrease
emissions, i.e. just before a smog test.

Would E-85 have a similar effect in, say,
1 gal E-86 to 4-5 gal of gasoline?



If I HAD to do it, would say, 2 or 3 gallons, 50/50 gas/E-85
be destructive if tank was refilled with gas ASAP?

Effects on power, drivability, emissions?

BTW, what techical/mechanical/electronic changes are made to
a Flex-Fuel vehicle to deserve that badge?

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
I've never heard of this, but then we've never needed to have emissions
tests around here.

I don't know if you meant isopropyl alcohol or not, but the common
grocery/drug store rubbing alcohol is isopropyl, and was often available
in more than one concentration.
Lately, all I've been able to find is 50%, but for many years, 90-92% was
readily available too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol

I don't put it in fuel, but it's a fairly decent cleaning solvent for
lightly soiled parts, and also a good additive to a water & liquid
detergent/soap mixture, to make a very effective general purpose cleaner.
I use a potion of about 66% water, 34% alcohol and very little liquid soap
(maybe 10 drops per pint) in a trigger spray bottle, for most things..
from my glasses lenses to plastic or painted equipment cabinets, and most
other things that don't require anything harsher.

--
WB

Ask your pharmacist. Where I live, we can get 98% by asking for it (I use it
for cleaning old photographic film), but it's not out on the aisles.

--
Ed Huntress

On Feb 19, 11:56*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
Ask your pharmacist. Where I live, we can get 98% by asking for it (I use it
for cleaning old photographic film), but it's not out on the aisles.
Ed Huntress

I've used semiconductor-grate isopropanol to clean circuit boards. It
works reasonably well, but we couldn't pour any down the drain because
rubbing alcohol is a dangerous pollutant.

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
I've never heard of this, but then we've never needed to have emissions
tests around here.

I don't know if you meant isopropyl alcohol or not, but the common
grocery/drug store rubbing alcohol is isopropyl, and was often available
in more than one concentration.
Lately, all I've been able to find is 50%, but for many years, 90-92% was
readily available too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol

I don't put it in fuel, but it's a fairly decent cleaning solvent for
lightly soiled parts, and also a good additive to a water & liquid
detergent/soap mixture, to make a very effective general purpose cleaner.
I use a potion of about 66% water, 34% alcohol and very little liquid soap
(maybe 10 drops per pint) in a trigger spray bottle, for most things..
from my glasses lenses to plastic or painted equipment cabinets, and most
other things that don't require anything harsher.

--
WB

Ask your pharmacist. Where I live, we can get 98% by asking for it (I use it
for cleaning old photographic film), but it's not out on the aisles.

--
Ed Huntress



97% out on the rack at the local Wally World. It gets added to the blend
we use to clean our air packs and gear. I ran out one time and used some
Ever Clear I had "on hand". The crew all smelled like they just hit a
brewery fire after that!.

(Ever Clear is basically a 98% alcohol Vodka, one shot is enough to put
a normal human into alcohol poisoning range)

--
Steve W.

"Steve W." writes:

(Ever Clear is basically a 98% alcohol Vodka, one shot is enough to put
a normal human into alcohol poisoning range)

Wow. That claim seemed so ridiculous that I worked the numbers so I
could refute you -- and it turns out that a shot of everclear works
out to almost exactly 1% BAC!

For that matter, I now have a lot more respect for shots of more
normal, 80 proof (40%) liquor....

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
"Steve W." writes:

(Ever Clear is basically a 98% alcohol Vodka, one shot is enough to
put a normal human into alcohol poisoning range)

Wow. That claim seemed so ridiculous that I worked the numbers so I
could refute you -- and it turns out that a shot of everclear works
out to almost exactly 1% BAC!

For that matter, I now have a lot more respect for shots of more
normal, 80 proof (40%) liquor....

1% is dead and pickled.

Try this:

http://oade.nd.edu/educate-yourself-...concentration/
bac-calculator

and

http://healthyhorns.utexas.edu/bac.html

wws wrote:

some stuff.

nevermind folks,

nothing to see here...

"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

(Ever Clear is basically a 98% alcohol Vodka, one shot is enough to put
a normal human into alcohol poisoning range)

Try 95% and a 190-proof beverage.

FWIW, your exaggeration also includes the "alcohol poisoning range"
comment.

"Everclear" is a relatively mild, almost totally tasteless, liquid that -
taken in moderation - provides no hangover so long as it is ingested
without being polluted by such extraneous compounds as water, mixers,
colas, etc.

"RAM³" writes:

"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

(Ever Clear is basically a 98% alcohol Vodka, one shot is enough to put
a normal human into alcohol poisoning range)

Try 95% and a 190-proof beverage.

FWIW, your exaggeration also includes the "alcohol poisoning range"
comment.

Work the numbers. A shot is 1.5 oz. You've got roughly 5 qt of blood
in your body, which is 160 oz. If it all hit your bloodstream at
once, you'd be dead.

"Everclear" is a relatively mild, almost totally tasteless, liquid that -
taken in moderation - provides no hangover so long as it is ingested
without being polluted by such extraneous compounds as water, mixers,
colas, etc.

"Moderation" being such an important word in that description.

If the claim that one shot of everclear would kill you is true, why then
do many people imbibe 3 0r 4 mixed drinks that contain a couple of shots
of 80 proof alchohol each and live to tell about it? It seems to take
20 or 30 shots of the 80 proof stuff to put the college kids into their
coffins.
Could it be that you can't just really need to take overall body
wieght into account, not just the amount of blood?

Pete Stanaitis
------------------------------


RAM³ wrote:

"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:


(Ever Clear is basically a 98% alcohol Vodka, one shot is enough to put
a normal human into alcohol poisoning range)


Try 95% and a 190-proof beverage.

FWIW, your exaggeration also includes the "alcohol poisoning range"
comment.

"Everclear" is a relatively mild, almost totally tasteless, liquid that -
taken in moderation - provides no hangover so long as it is ingested
without being polluted by such extraneous compounds as water, mixers,
colas, etc.

spaco writes:

If the claim that one shot of everclear would kill you is true, why
then do many people imbibe 3 0r 4 mixed drinks that contain a couple
of shots of 80 proof alchohol each and live to tell about it? It
seems to take 20 or 30 shots of the 80 proof stuff to put the college
kids into their coffins.
Could it be that you can't just really need to take overall body
wieght into account, not just the amount of blood?

It does get more complex, and the rates are very important. Three or
four mixed drinks over the course of three or four hours is having the
alcohol metabolized as you're drinking it, and distributed over all
your body tissues ending up with much lower concentrations. Taking a
shot of everclear has all the alcohol in your stomach at once; if your
stomach was empty it's absorbed into your bloodstream pretty quickly,
and at that point you've got very high concentrations for a while.

spaco wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

If the claim that one shot of everclear would kill you is true, why
then do many people imbibe 3 0r 4 mixed drinks that contain a couple
of shots of 80 proof alchohol each and live to tell about it? It
seems to take 20 or 30 shots of the 80 proof stuff to put the college
kids into their coffins.
Could it be that you can't just really need to take overall body
wieght into account, not just the amount of blood?

Pete Stanaitis
------------------------------


RAM³ wrote:

"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:


(Ever Clear is basically a 98% alcohol Vodka, one shot is enough to
put a normal human into alcohol poisoning range)


Try 95% and a 190-proof beverage.

FWIW, your exaggeration also includes the "alcohol poisoning range"
comment.

"Everclear" is a relatively mild, almost totally tasteless, liquid
that - taken in moderation - provides no hangover so long as it is
ingested without being polluted by such extraneous compounds as
water, mixers, colas, etc.



Ya got me, Pete: at one time I was averageing a fifth/night [Bourbon or
Scots'] and staying [relatively] sober.

I can only guess that the claimant of impending doom is a rabid crusading
tee-totaller. Grin

RAM³ wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

(Ever Clear is basically a 98% alcohol Vodka, one shot is enough to put
a normal human into alcohol poisoning range)

Try 95% and a 190-proof beverage.

FWIW, your exaggeration also includes the "alcohol poisoning range"
comment.

"Everclear" is a relatively mild, almost totally tasteless, liquid that -
taken in moderation - provides no hangover so long as it is ingested
without being polluted by such extraneous compounds as water, mixers,
colas, etc.



Everclear is NOT even close to mild or tasteless! Try it some time. It
will make you wish that you didn't touch it. No hangover? Not very likely.

http://www.beekmanwine.com/prevtopas.htm

--
Steve W.

spaco wrote:
If the claim that one shot of everclear would kill you is true, why then
do many people imbibe 3 0r 4 mixed drinks that contain a couple of shots
of 80 proof alchohol each and live to tell about it? It seems to take
20 or 30 shots of the 80 proof stuff to put the college kids into their
coffins.
Could it be that you can't just really need to take overall body
wieght into account, not just the amount of blood?

Pete Stanaitis

Body weight can make a difference. The catch with all of the mixed
drinks is that they are MIXED drinks. The mixer used acts as a buffer
and slows the alcohol absorption into the bloodstream. With straight
Everclear there is NO buffer. It starts absorption as soon as it hits
the mouth and through the entire digestive tract.


--
Steve W.

On Feb 8, 10:55*am, "Steve W." wrote:
wrote:
If I HAD to do it, would say, 2 or 3 gallons, 50/50 gas/E-85
be destructive if tank was refilled with gas ASAP?

Effects on power, drivability, emissions?

BTW, what techical/mechanical/electronic changes are made to
a Flex-Fuel vehicle to deserve that badge?

thanks

gary

NOT a good idea. However it would run, not well however.
Without the proper timing and injector controls the engine runs at less
than half power and will be running VERY lean so you create a lot of
extra pollution.

The E-85 engines use a composition sensor in the fuel line to tell the
computer to use a different program table for the injectors and timing
to allow E-85 to work.

I wouldn't get to worried about E-85 though. So far 1/3 of the plants
that are making the ethanol have gone bankrupt, and more drop every day.

--
Steve W.

And they are being bought up by the oil companies.

Enjoy your higher fuel costs waiting for you in the future.

TMT

On Feb 20, 6:52 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:


And they are being bought up by the oil companies.

Enjoy your higher fuel costs waiting for you in the future.

TMT

Actually oil companies are not buying ethonal plants. But some of
them are building ethonal plants that use grass or bagasse.

Dan

wrote:
On Feb 20, 6:52 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

And they are being bought up by the oil companies.

Enjoy your higher fuel costs waiting for you in the future.

TMT

Actually oil companies are not buying ethonal plants. But some of
them are building ethonal plants that use grass or bagasse.

Dan


I know the ones around here that shut down did so when they discovered
that ethanol production was a negative cash flow proposition. When the
high dollar subsidies stopped the plants shut down.

--
Steve W.

"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

spaco wrote:
If the claim that one shot of everclear would kill you is true, why then
do many people imbibe 3 0r 4 mixed drinks that contain a couple of shots
of 80 proof alchohol each and live to tell about it? It seems to take
20 or 30 shots of the 80 proof stuff to put the college kids into their
coffins.
Could it be that you can't just really need to take overall body
wieght into account, not just the amount of blood?

Pete Stanaitis

Body weight can make a difference. The catch with all of the mixed
drinks is that they are MIXED drinks. The mixer used acts as a buffer
and slows the alcohol absorption into the bloodstream. With straight
Everclear there is NO buffer. It starts absorption as soon as it hits
the mouth and through the entire digestive tract.



No mixer = no hangover.

If I want cold booze I'll put the bottle in the ice box to chill it.

If I want soda pop I'll buy one.

I don't pollute the booze: if I didn't like the flavor of it I'd buy
something else.

"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

RAM³ wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

(Ever Clear is basically a 98% alcohol Vodka, one shot is enough to
put a normal human into alcohol poisoning range)

Try 95% and a 190-proof beverage.

FWIW, your exaggeration also includes the "alcohol poisoning range"
comment.

"Everclear" is a relatively mild, almost totally tasteless, liquid
that - taken in moderation - provides no hangover so long as it is
ingested without being polluted by such extraneous compounds as
water, mixers, colas, etc.



Everclear is NOT even close to mild or tasteless! Try it some time. It
will make you wish that you didn't touch it. No hangover? Not very
likely.

http://www.beekmanwine.com/prevtopas.htm


Having consumed somewhere around 20 gallons of the stuff - neat - I stand
by my assessment.

I attribute my lifelong avoidance of hangovers to a refusal to "mix" booze
- whether types/brands or by polluting the booze with water and/or other
foreign substances.

I'm neither a wino nor a beer drinker - I stick to Glenfiddich, Jim Beam,
Sauza Silver, and Presidente brandy - and never mix or pollute them.

Everclear is a brand name for a commercial version of good 'shine. grin

On 21 Feb 2009 10:38:13 GMT, the infamous "RAM³"
scrawled the following:

"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

RAM³ wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

(Ever Clear is basically a 98% alcohol Vodka, one shot is enough to
put a normal human into alcohol poisoning range)

Try 95% and a 190-proof beverage.

FWIW, your exaggeration also includes the "alcohol poisoning range"
comment.

"Everclear" is a relatively mild, almost totally tasteless, liquid
that - taken in moderation - provides no hangover so long as it is
ingested without being polluted by such extraneous compounds as
water, mixers, colas, etc.



Everclear is NOT even close to mild or tasteless! Try it some time. It
will make you wish that you didn't touch it. No hangover? Not very
likely.

http://www.beekmanwine.com/prevtopas.htm


Having consumed somewhere around 20 gallons of the stuff - neat - I stand
by my assessment.

I attribute my lifelong avoidance of hangovers to a refusal to "mix" booze
- whether types/brands or by polluting the booze with water and/or other
foreign substances.

I'm neither a wino nor a beer drinker - I stick to Glenfiddich, Jim Beam,
Sauza Silver, and Presidente brandy - and never mix or pollute them.

Everclear is a brand name for a commercial version of good 'shine. grin

Hayseuss Crisco, guys. Join me at the next AA meeting?

--
Women and cats will do as they please,

and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.

--Robert A. Heinlein

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 06:14:02 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 21 Feb 2009 10:38:13 GMT, the infamous "RAM³"
scrawled the following:

"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

RAM³ wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

(Ever Clear is basically a 98% alcohol Vodka, one shot is enough to
put a normal human into alcohol poisoning range)

Try 95% and a 190-proof beverage.

FWIW, your exaggeration also includes the "alcohol poisoning range"
comment.

"Everclear" is a relatively mild, almost totally tasteless, liquid
that - taken in moderation - provides no hangover so long as it is
ingested without being polluted by such extraneous compounds as
water, mixers, colas, etc.



Everclear is NOT even close to mild or tasteless! Try it some time. It
will make you wish that you didn't touch it. No hangover? Not very
likely.

http://www.beekmanwine.com/prevtopas.htm


Having consumed somewhere around 20 gallons of the stuff - neat - I stand
by my assessment.

I attribute my lifelong avoidance of hangovers to a refusal to "mix" booze
- whether types/brands or by polluting the booze with water and/or other
foreign substances.

I'm neither a wino nor a beer drinker - I stick to Glenfiddich, Jim Beam,
Sauza Silver, and Presidente brandy - and never mix or pollute them.

Everclear is a brand name for a commercial version of good 'shine. grin

Hayseuss Crisco, guys. Join me at the next AA meeting?


Makes me really glad I dont drink.

And I never wake up in a ladies bedroom without knowing how I got
there...and they all weigh less than I do.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

Gunner Asch wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:

Makes me really glad I dont drink.

And I never wake up in a ladies bedroom without knowing how I got
there...and they all weigh less than I do.


FWIW, my liver and kidneys are in excellent shape. grin

While - in my youth - I did quite a bit of "serious" drinking, I never
"drank for effect". I simply found that practice increased tolerance for
the stuff and, back then, I did a lot of practicing. Grin

This period continued until the day that, upon arriving home, I found
myself reaching for a jug and decided that I didn't want to fall into THAT
particular trap.

Two years later, I had my next drink and limited myself to no more than
2/night if dining out and none if at home.

Now, I keep some in stock for medicinal purposes [both as a sleep aid and
as a flatulence preventative] and for the occasional guest's benefit.

While I'll have one now and then, I still don't "do" mixed drinks other
than Coffee+Kahlua on rare occasions.

I've seen the lives of too many friends & family members destroyed by the
stuff.

When asked about my preference for coffee over booze, I simply state that
I've found that I can make a big enough fool of myself "cold sober" and
don't feel the need for any help from the stuff.

It's sorta like my attitude toward bi/motorcycle helmets: each individual
knows whether there's anything "up there" worth protecting. grin

I feel that each individual has the right to choose just how big a fool
he/she/it wants to appear to be...