Ed Huntress wrote:
If you've had any involvement with top-notch college
lately you know that many, if not most, of the best student minds have been
entranced by the big bucks in finance.


Ahem.

http://www.olin.edu/
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/
http://www.hmc.edu/academicsclinicre...gineering.html

One could put forward the thesis that the _best_ minds, by definition,
would not be entranced by the big bucks in finance.

Kevin Gallimore

"axolotl" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
If you've had any involvement with top-notch college
lately you know that many, if not most, of the best student minds have
been entranced by the big bucks in finance.


Ahem.

http://www.olin.edu/
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/
http://www.hmc.edu/academicsclinicre...gineering.html

Yes? Those are three highly-rated engineering colleges. I don't see your
point, Kevin.


One could put forward the thesis that the _best_ minds, by definition,
would not be entranced by the big bucks in finance.

Kevin Gallimore

One could make the assertion, but one would have an awkward point making it
a thesis, because engineering isn't even among the ten most popular college
majors in the US. The most popular is business administration, and in the
most selective universities, the hot specialty for the past decade or two
has been finance.

You'll find that a lot of the top-scoring students have been attracted to it
for quite a while now. One thing that my son told me over Christmas vacation
shocked me a bit. He attends a highly selective, highly rated, but very
small private university. He's an economics major. The university has an
engineering department, but it's small.

Anyway, he's taken three semesters of calculus and is now studying linear
algebra, all of which are required for an econ major. They take the classes
with the engineering students, and he tells me that the best math students,
by far, are the econ majors.

I suspect it's different at MIT or at those engineering schools you listed,
but maybe not. I'm very curious about it. And it doesn't require a thesis or
definition to recognize that most engineering students are not of MIT
quality.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"axolotl" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:
If you've had any involvement with top-notch college

lately you know that many, if not most, of the best student minds have
been entranced by the big bucks in finance.


Ahem.

http://www.olin.edu/
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/
http://www.hmc.edu/academicsclinicre...gineering.html


Yes? Those are three highly-rated engineering colleges. I don't see your
point, Kevin.

The point not communicated well, apparently, is that we have had
different experiences. In the past couple of years, I have had occasion
to speak with a fair number of very bright new graduates. I usually ask
them what they want to be when they grow up. Almost without exception,
they give me a variation of "I want to save the world". The only concern
about money that I can remember was from a new Cornell graduate, who
wanted to make a lot of money as soon as she could, in order to pay off
her school loans. Then she wanted to save the world.

In short: Best Student Minds and entrancement by Big Bucks in Finance
are not necessarily related. I, for one, hope that some of the best
minds write symphonies and discover cures for baldness. In my
experience, that has been the case.




One could put forward the thesis that the _best_ minds, by definition,
would not be entranced by the big bucks in finance.

Kevin Gallimore


One could make the assertion, but one would have an awkward point making it
a thesis, because engineering isn't even among the ten most popular college
majors in the US. The most popular is business administration, and in the
most selective universities, the hot specialty for the past decade or two
has been finance.

Best != Popular



You'll find that a lot of the top-scoring students have been attracted to it
for quite a while now. One thing that my son told me over Christmas vacation
shocked me a bit. He attends a highly selective, highly rated, but very
small private university. He's an economics major. The university has an
engineering department, but it's small.

Anyway, he's taken three semesters of calculus and is now studying linear
algebra, all of which are required for an econ major. They take the classes
with the engineering students, and he tells me that the best math students,
by far, are the econ majors.

As long as we are giving anecdotes from our kids, I'll give you one from
mine. Business courses are required at the engineering college from
which my son graduated, and those courses are taken at the prestigous
(to some) New England business college next door. He and his engineering
buddies are in the class being lectured to, with the textbook open to
the explanation of a formula, written in babytalk, just plain offensive
to an engineering major.
My kid mutters under his breath-
"What kind of moron reads these books?"
His friend whispers back:
"The kind of moron that's going to be your boss."


Kevin Gallimore

"axolotl" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"axolotl" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:
If you've had any involvement with top-notch college

lately you know that many, if not most, of the best student minds have
been entranced by the big bucks in finance.


Ahem.

http://www.olin.edu/
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/
http://www.hmc.edu/academicsclinicre...gineering.html


Yes? Those are three highly-rated engineering colleges. I don't see your
point, Kevin.

The point not communicated well, apparently, is that we have had different
experiences. In the past couple of years, I have had occasion to speak
with a fair number of very bright new graduates. I usually ask them what
they want to be when they grow up. Almost without exception, they give me
a variation of "I want to save the world". The only concern about money
that I can remember was from a new Cornell graduate, who wanted to make a
lot of money as soon as she could, in order to pay off her school loans.
Then she wanted to save the world.

In short: Best Student Minds and entrancement by Big Bucks in Finance are
not necessarily related. I, for one, hope that some of the best minds
write symphonies and discover cures for baldness. In my experience, that
has been the case.




One could put forward the thesis that the _best_ minds, by definition,
would not be entranced by the big bucks in finance.

Kevin Gallimore


One could make the assertion, but one would have an awkward point making
it a thesis, because engineering isn't even among the ten most popular
college majors in the US. The most popular is business administration,
and in the most selective universities, the hot specialty for the past
decade or two has been finance.

Best != Popular



You'll find that a lot of the top-scoring students have been attracted to
it for quite a while now. One thing that my son told me over Christmas
vacation shocked me a bit. He attends a highly selective, highly rated,
but very small private university. He's an economics major. The
university has an engineering department, but it's small.

Anyway, he's taken three semesters of calculus and is now studying linear
algebra, all of which are required for an econ major. They take the
classes with the engineering students, and he tells me that the best math
students, by far, are the econ majors.

As long as we are giving anecdotes from our kids, I'll give you one from
mine. Business courses are required at the engineering college from which
my son graduated, and those courses are taken at the prestigous (to some)
New England business college next door. He and his engineering buddies are
in the class being lectured to, with the textbook open to the explanation
of a formula, written in babytalk, just plain offensive to an engineering
major.

That was my exact experience at the University of Michigan.
There isn't anything special about calculus and when you exclude cultural
issues you have psuedo science.

What is special is knowing what curves you choose to calculate the area of
intersection.
That and having some idea about what the population concerned will do.

Absent that consideration, you have little more that nonsense.

JC

"axolotl" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"axolotl" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:
If you've had any involvement with top-notch college

lately you know that many, if not most, of the best student minds have
been entranced by the big bucks in finance.


Ahem.

http://www.olin.edu/
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/
http://www.hmc.edu/academicsclinicre...gineering.html


Yes? Those are three highly-rated engineering colleges. I don't see your
point, Kevin.

The point not communicated well, apparently, is that we have had different
experiences.

It isn't my experience. It's the report from many colleges, as well as from
companies trying to hire smart people.

This really isn't much of a question, Kevin, despite our anecdotes. g For
example, from an article:

================================================== =
Rich Karlgaard, the technology entrepreneur who is publisher of Forbes,
tells the story of a trip he took with Microsoft's Bill Gates in the early
1990s. On the flight, he asked Gates, "Who is your chief competitor?"

"Goldman Sachs" was Gates's surprising reply.

Gates went on to explain that he was in the "IQ business." Microsoft needed
the best brains available to make top-shelf software. His primary rivals for
the smartest kids in America were elite investment banks such as Goldman or
Morgan Stanley.

"Microsoft must win the IQ war," Gates said, "or we won't have a future."

If trends hold, then Microsoft's future in the war for IQ looks bleak. The
brightest students these days are headed into finance, but Microsoft is
fighting back...

....First, what do the trends say?

Gates says he's in the 'IQ business,' and his rivals for the brainiest
students in America are the elite Wall Street Investment banks.Recent
enrollment figures are ominous. The number of smart kids studying computer
science peaked a few years ago and has dropped dramatically since. The
number of new computer science majors today has fallen by half since 2000,
according to the Higher Education Research Institute at UCLA. Merrilea Mayo,
director of the Government-University-Industry Research Roundtable at the
National Academies, says the drop-off was particularly pronounced among
women.

Meanwhile, elite schools are reporting that the number of economics majors
is exploding. For the 2003-2004 academic year, the number of economics
degrees granted by U.S. colleges and universities increased 40 percent from
five years previously. Economics is seen by bright undergraduates as the
path to a high-paying job on Wall Street or at a major corporation.

================================================== ===

That was written 18 months ago. It's about more than popularity. Those
obscene salaries paid by the top investment banks have been drawing the
intellectual cream off for around two decades now, Kevin. It's often
remarked upon in academic circles, where they keep track of the numbers. Not
only is it where the money has been, but it's where the action is -- and
action is exciting, and sexy, and very attractive to ambitious young people.

Now, IIRC, your son went to Olin, correct? It's a unique school, but the
graduating class size is something like 1/5 the size of my high school
graduating class. No doubt it produces elite engineers but in terms of where
the brains are going in our economy, that's a drop in the bucket.

As John and I have said, and I think you and most others here agree, here's
hoping that it turns around, and soon. I'm hoping that finance loses its
charm like engineering did with the Vietnam War.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"axolotl" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"axolotl" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:
If you've had any involvement with top-notch college

lately you know that many, if not most, of the best student minds have
been entranced by the big bucks in finance.

Ahem.

http://www.olin.edu/
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/
http://www.hmc.edu/academicsclinicre...gineering.html

Yes? Those are three highly-rated engineering colleges. I don't see your
point, Kevin.
The point not communicated well, apparently, is that we have had different
experiences.

It isn't my experience. It's the report from many colleges, as well as from
companies trying to hire smart people.

This really isn't much of a question, Kevin, despite our anecdotes. g For
example, from an article:

================================================== =
Rich Karlgaard, the technology entrepreneur who is publisher of Forbes,
tells the story of a trip he took with Microsoft's Bill Gates in the early
1990s. On the flight, he asked Gates, "Who is your chief competitor?"

"Goldman Sachs" was Gates's surprising reply.

Gates went on to explain that he was in the "IQ business." Microsoft needed
the best brains available to make top-shelf software. His primary rivals for
the smartest kids in America were elite investment banks such as Goldman or
Morgan Stanley.

"Microsoft must win the IQ war," Gates said, "or we won't have a future."

If trends hold, then Microsoft's future in the war for IQ looks bleak. The
brightest students these days are headed into finance, but Microsoft is
fighting back...

...First, what do the trends say?

Gates says he's in the 'IQ business,' and his rivals for the brainiest
students in America are the elite Wall Street Investment banks.Recent
enrollment figures are ominous. The number of smart kids studying computer
science peaked a few years ago and has dropped dramatically since. The
number of new computer science majors today has fallen by half since 2000,
according to the Higher Education Research Institute at UCLA. Merrilea Mayo,
director of the Government-University-Industry Research Roundtable at the
National Academies, says the drop-off was particularly pronounced among
women.

Meanwhile, elite schools are reporting that the number of economics majors
is exploding. For the 2003-2004 academic year, the number of economics
degrees granted by U.S. colleges and universities increased 40 percent from
five years previously. Economics is seen by bright undergraduates as the
path to a high-paying job on Wall Street or at a major corporation.

================================================== ===

That was written 18 months ago. It's about more than popularity. Those
obscene salaries paid by the top investment banks have been drawing the
intellectual cream off for around two decades now, Kevin. It's often
remarked upon in academic circles, where they keep track of the numbers. Not
only is it where the money has been, but it's where the action is -- and
action is exciting, and sexy, and very attractive to ambitious young people.

Now, IIRC, your son went to Olin, correct? It's a unique school, but the
graduating class size is something like 1/5 the size of my high school
graduating class. No doubt it produces elite engineers but in terms of where
the brains are going in our economy, that's a drop in the bucket.

As John and I have said, and I think you and most others here agree, here's
hoping that it turns around, and soon. I'm hoping that finance loses its
charm like engineering did with the Vietnam War.

--
Ed Huntress




It reads good, but Gates always was a self serving prick.
Just MNSHO...

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:39:32 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:
snip
Rich Karlgaard, the technology entrepreneur who is publisher of Forbes,
tells the story of a trip he took with Microsoft's Bill Gates in the early
1990s. On the flight, he asked Gates, "Who is your chief competitor?"

"Goldman Sachs" was Gates's surprising reply.
snip
==============
Proving again the correctness of Emerson's terse observation
"what you do speaks so loud I can't hear what you say."

Why does corporate America keep ranting about a shortage of
scientists, engineers, and technicians when treat them like crap
from the wages paid, to the being the first category to be fired
when things turn down? Quit complaining when the free market
works and the people go where the money is. They didn't make the
rules, but they are playing the game.

Unless you have a real drive to discover and/or create things
[and most of us do in this newsgroup] why would anyone that has
the IQ and skill set necessary to make it as a
banker/broker/quant/arb get involved with research and/or
manufacturing? Given the way the world is currently working,
even if you have a real drive/flare for machining, you are most
likely still better off getting a job in banking/finance and
setting up one hell of a home/hobby shop.

In today's work place, most university engineering and technology
programs have as much future as their home-economics programs
did, and should be phased out. If you can't find work in your
career field, why bother?


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:39:32 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:
snip
Rich Karlgaard, the technology entrepreneur who is publisher of Forbes,
tells the story of a trip he took with Microsoft's Bill Gates in the early
1990s. On the flight, he asked Gates, "Who is your chief competitor?"

"Goldman Sachs" was Gates's surprising reply.
snip
==============
Proving again the correctness of Emerson's terse observation
"what you do speaks so loud I can't hear what you say."

Why does corporate America keep ranting about a shortage of
scientists, engineers, and technicians when treat them like crap
from the wages paid, to the being the first category to be fired
when things turn down? Quit complaining when the free market
works and the people go where the money is. They didn't make the
rules, but they are playing the game.

Unless you have a real drive to discover and/or create things
[and most of us do in this newsgroup] why would anyone that has
the IQ and skill set necessary to make it as a
banker/broker/quant/arb get involved with research and/or
manufacturing? Given the way the world is currently working,
even if you have a real drive/flare for machining, you are most
likely still better off getting a job in banking/finance and
setting up one hell of a home/hobby shop.

In today's work place, most university engineering and technology
programs have as much future as their home-economics programs
did, and should be phased out. If you can't find work in your
career field, why bother?


Unka' George [George McDuffee]

Amen to that. And I've interviewed corporate execs who talk about it out of
both sides of their mouths -- decrying the shortage of US engineers while
simultaneously bragging about how much they save by having their engineering
done in India. No wonder many bright kids are loathe to get involved in
engineering now.

--
Ed Huntress

In article ,
F. George McDuffee wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:39:32 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:
snip
Rich Karlgaard, the technology entrepreneur who is publisher of Forbes,
tells the story of a trip he took with Microsoft's Bill Gates in the early
1990s. On the flight, he asked Gates, "Who is your chief competitor?"

"Goldman Sachs" was Gates's surprising reply.
snip
==============
Proving again the correctness of Emerson's terse observation
"what you do speaks so loud I can't hear what you say."

Why does corporate America keep ranting about a shortage of
scientists, engineers, and technicians when treat them like crap
from the wages paid, to the being the first category to be fired
when things turn down? Quit complaining when the free market
works and the people go where the money is. They didn't make the
rules, but they are playing the game.

Unless you have a real drive to discover and/or create things
[and most of us do in this newsgroup] why would anyone that has
the IQ and skill set necessary to make it as a
banker/broker/quant/arb get involved with research and/or
manufacturing? Given the way the world is currently working,
even if you have a real drive/flare for machining, you are most
likely still better off getting a job in banking/finance and
setting up one hell of a home/hobby shop.

Maybe not. The recent unpleasantness in the financial world may have
re-balanced things.


In today's work place, most university engineering and technology
programs have as much future as their home-economics programs
did, and should be phased out. If you can't find work in your
career field, why bother?

And I have a nephew who is halfway through the process of getting a
degree in mechanical engineering. His mother (my wife's sister) was an
executive in the finance world, most recently State Street Bank. (She
was laid off last week.) My wife is also in Finance.

The nephew is the first engineer from that family. We have no idea
where he got the idea. (I doubt that I was the example, as he never
asked me any questions.)

Nor is there a prayer that companies that hire engineers will attempt to
emulate Wall Street pay scales. Engineering business models simply
cannot support any such thing.

Compared to Wall Street, engineering is very steady work, with low
unemployement.


Joe Gwinn

Ed Huntress wrote:


It isn't my experience. It's the report from many colleges, as well as from

Meanwhile, elite schools are reporting that the number of economics majors
is exploding. For the 2003-2004 academic year, the number of economics
degrees granted by U.S. colleges and universities increased 40 percent from
five years previously. Economics is seen by bright undergraduates as the
path to a high-paying job on Wall Street or at a major corporation.


Again, one does not want to confuse popular with best. I am going
through the college selection mess with my daughter. The hot major
amongst her classmates is "forensic science".
There seems to be a TV show.....

Now, IIRC, your son went to Olin, correct? It's a unique school, but the
graduating class size is something like 1/5 the size of my high school
graduating class. No doubt it produces elite engineers but in terms of where
the brains are going in our economy, that's a drop in the bucket.

But they are the brains that count



As John and I have said, and I think you and most others here agree, here's
hoping that it turns around, and soon. I'm hoping that finance loses its
charm like engineering did with the Vietnam War.


Amen.

Kevin Gallimore

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:55:51 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:39:32 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:
snip
Rich Karlgaard, the technology entrepreneur who is publisher of Forbes,
tells the story of a trip he took with Microsoft's Bill Gates in the early
1990s. On the flight, he asked Gates, "Who is your chief competitor?"

"Goldman Sachs" was Gates's surprising reply.
snip
==============
Proving again the correctness of Emerson's terse observation
"what you do speaks so loud I can't hear what you say."

Why does corporate America keep ranting about a shortage of
scientists, engineers, and technicians when treat them like crap
from the wages paid, to the being the first category to be fired
when things turn down? Quit complaining when the free market
works and the people go where the money is. They didn't make the
rules, but they are playing the game.

Unless you have a real drive to discover and/or create things
[and most of us do in this newsgroup] why would anyone that has
the IQ and skill set necessary to make it as a
banker/broker/quant/arb get involved with research and/or
manufacturing? Given the way the world is currently working,
even if you have a real drive/flare for machining, you are most
likely still better off getting a job in banking/finance and
setting up one hell of a home/hobby shop.

In today's work place, most university engineering and technology
programs have as much future as their home-economics programs
did, and should be phased out. If you can't find work in your
career field, why bother?


Unka' George [George McDuffee]

Amen to that. And I've interviewed corporate execs who talk about it out of
both sides of their mouths -- decrying the shortage of US engineers while
simultaneously bragging about how much they save by having their engineering
done in India. No wonder many bright kids are loathe to get involved in
engineering now.
===============
Another "renegade" educator has examined this topic, and he
managed to get published. Note that the following article covers
all post-secondary education, not just technical.

-----------------
Rethink the value of college

By Walt Gardner Walt Gardner – Thu Jan 29, 3:00 am ET

Los Angeles – Today's economic downturn has blindsided a
generation of young people around the globe brought up to believe
that a college degree guaranteed them financial prosperity.
Whether in the US, China, or in countries in between, graduates
from even marquee-name schools are feeling the crunch, prompting
many rightly to rethink the value of their education.

In the US, where higher education is increasingly seen as a
right, the unemployment rate among workers with a bachelor's
degree or higher reached 3.1 percent in November. While that
figure is modest compared with the nation's current overall
unemployment rate of about 7.2 percent, it ranks near an all-time
high. Analysts predict that the college-educated unemployment
rate will exceed 4 percent, which would be the highest since the
Bureau of Labor Statistics began tracking unemployment by
education level in 1970.

The picture in China is also gloomy. The government reported in
late January that the growth rate for the final quarter of last
year fell to 6.8 percent, bringing the rate for the full year
down to 9 percent – the slowest pace in at least six years. In
2007, for example, China's economy expanded at a robust 13
percent clip. Analysts say growth could drop to 5 or 6 percent
this year, the slowest in more than a decade.

As in the US, students at even China's elite schools are not
immune. At Peking University, for example, students preparing to
graduate might have received three job offers close to graduation
in the past. This year many have been offered none. According to
the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, an estimated 27 percent
of the country's 5.59 million college graduates in 2008 were
unable to find jobs. The plight of students is expected to worsen
because Chinese universities are increasing enrollment.

Graduates in Spain and England face a similarly bleak picture.
Both countries have a record number of degree holders, making for
cutthroat competition for jobs. When those with degrees manage to
find work, it is too often in fields for which they are
overqualified.

Spain hit a 12-year high unemployment rate of 3 million people in
2008, and England is expected to have 3 million idle by the end
of this year. More than 1 million of them are likely to be under
25. In fact, the latest labor market survey found unemployment
growing fastest among 18- to 24-year-olds – precisely the group
containing the largest percentage of recently minted degree
holders.

In light of the pervasive grim data, some are beginning to ask
whether a college degree has been oversold.

Surprisingly, as far back as 1963 that precise question was
raised by John Keats in a little noticed book with the apt title
of "The Sheepskin Psychosis." The author concluded that college
is merely the most convenient place to learn how to learn. It is
not an absolute determinant by any means.

The most recent exponent of this view is Charles Murray. In "Real
Education," which came out last year, he argues that a bachelor's
degree tells an employer nothing except that an applicant has a
certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance.
snip
------------
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20090129...GwAwofg_r9wxIF


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).