Awl --

Been watching History channel, and the scuttling of big-assed ships.
Also, railroads, NYC Subways, go thru big expense to properly prep/clean old
cars, to dump them in the ocean for coral reefs, etc.

Now, if coral reefs are that important, OK.....

But, if not, why go through all the expense to dump scrap in the ocean, when
these mega-tons of steel could be recycled? With much less expense and
chemical waste ito prep/cleaning, etc.?

Esp. on military ships, where armor can be 15" thick!!
And on railroad cars, where just *one* wheel is 700++ lbs of high quality
alloy steel. Usually 8 wheels (4 wheels per "truck", two trucks per car),
but sometimes more.

Just curious.

--
PV'd

But, if not, why go through all the expense to dump scrap in the ocean,
when
these mega-tons of steel could be recycled? With much less expense and
chemical waste ito prep/cleaning, etc.?

There was a 60 minutes expose on this a couple years ago. The only place
that can do this for less than the cost of the ship is Bangladesh or east
Pakistan. No pollution laws and almost slave labor rates. I guess its just
too damned expensive to do it right.

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:
But, if not, why go through all the expense to dump scrap in the ocean,
when
these mega-tons of steel could be recycled? With much less expense and
chemical waste ito prep/cleaning, etc.?

There was a 60 minutes expose on this a couple years ago. The only place
that can do this for less than the cost of the ship is Bangladesh or east
Pakistan. No pollution laws and almost slave labor rates. I guess its just
too damned expensive to do it right.

Karl

There is a problem in design these days, Europe is just beginning to
start addressing the concept of designing end of life into products.

By this I mean, using materials in ways and in combinations that make
for easier recycling and scrapping. Many plastic items are not
recyclable simply because they are made as laminates of different types
of plastics, and once joined together, the formerly recyclable materials
become garbage. Ships are notorious for asbestos, PCB's and other nasty
materials, and that's before you get to cargo residues and bilge scrapings.

"Stuart Wheaton" wrote in message
...
Karl Townsend wrote:
But, if not, why go through all the expense to dump scrap in the ocean,
when
these mega-tons of steel could be recycled? With much less expense and
chemical waste ito prep/cleaning, etc.?

There was a 60 minutes expose on this a couple years ago. The only place
that can do this for less than the cost of the ship is Bangladesh or east
Pakistan. No pollution laws and almost slave labor rates. I guess its
just too damned expensive to do it right.

Karl

There is a problem in design these days, Europe is just beginning to start
addressing the concept of designing end of life into products.

By this I mean, using materials in ways and in combinations that make for
easier recycling and scrapping. Many plastic items are not recyclable
simply because they are made as laminates of different types of plastics,
and once joined together, the formerly recyclable materials become
garbage. Ships are notorious for asbestos, PCB's and other nasty
materials, and that's before you get to cargo residues and bilge
scrapings.

Which is ultimately my point.
If they cut these things up, put'em in a Pittsburg Steel giganto blast
furnace, wouldn't everything be moot? Skim the crud off the top, done.
Seems like a blast furnace would help with the pollution problem, denaturing
a lot of nasties. Might even create new alloys.

After all, they crush cars: lock, stock, upholstery/oil/gasoline, and
barrel, alum/steel/zinc/copper, and recycle alladat.

Just can't imagine scuttling football fields of 15" steel plates and 800 lb
alloy rims.
--
PV'd

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that "Karl Townsend"
wrote on Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:00:11
-0600 in rec.crafts.metalworking :

But, if not, why go through all the expense to dump scrap in the ocean,
when
these mega-tons of steel could be recycled? With much less expense and
chemical waste ito prep/cleaning, etc.?

There was a 60 minutes expose on this a couple years ago. The only place
that can do this for less than the cost of the ship is Bangladesh or east
Pakistan. No pollution laws and almost slave labor rates. I guess its just
too damned expensive to do it right.

Recycling is labor intensive. Period. End of discussion.

So, recycled material has that imbalance built in, unless it is
something which is very "expensive" to produce in the first place.
E.G., aluminum.
What's the going rate for steel? Even the high quality steel such
as in warships or railroad cars?
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:

Now, if coral reefs are that important, OK.....

Fine, drop tires into the ocean. Those work.

Send me your railroad car. I'll cut it apart and get enough out of it to make my while.

We have the technology to take anything made of metal apart. Stick a battle ship in my
back yard and I'll gnaw off enough to make a living. Might have to drill the hull and
connect the dots with a hacksaw but I'll get No. 2 steel out of it.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:

Now, if coral reefs are that important, OK.....

Fine, drop tires into the ocean. Those work.

I was just watching something that said this didn't work -- the bunch they
dropped in had to be removed or sumpn.

I believe all those tires will be a windfall one day. I have an idea that
when they solve solubilization of coal problem (or dustification or
whatever), tires will follow shortly thereafter.
Both have sulfur problems, tires of course worse than coal, but sheeit, the
sulfur reclamation, which is already done in power plants, would solve the
universe's requirement for H2SO4.



Send me your railroad car. I'll cut it apart and get enough out of it to
make my while.

We have the technology to take anything made of metal apart. Stick a
battle ship in my
back yard and I'll gnaw off enough to make a living. Might have to drill
the hull and
connect the dots with a hacksaw but I'll get No. 2 steel out of it.

Yeah, you'd be in 7th heaven with 15" plate, I'm sure.

Ahm not a mining engineer, but I don't understand Pyotr's claim of labor
intensiveness against recycling.
What could be more energy/labor intensive than mining/crushing/smelting and
all the rest involved in raw ore?

Not to mention we are in phase two of iron ore quality, where phase one ran
out in WWII. iow, today's ore density is like 1/2-1/3 of the WWII ore.

--
PV'd




Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Push to shove they can be cut up and raised for steel.
But for now they are busy in place.
Martin

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Awl --

Been watching History channel, and the scuttling of big-assed ships.
Also, railroads, NYC Subways, go thru big expense to properly prep/clean old
cars, to dump them in the ocean for coral reefs, etc.

Now, if coral reefs are that important, OK.....

But, if not, why go through all the expense to dump scrap in the ocean, when
these mega-tons of steel could be recycled? With much less expense and
chemical waste ito prep/cleaning, etc.?

Esp. on military ships, where armor can be 15" thick!!
And on railroad cars, where just *one* wheel is 700++ lbs of high quality
alloy steel. Usually 8 wheels (4 wheels per "truck", two trucks per car),
but sometimes more.

Just curious.

Artificial reef is a real and useful purpose - can make a big difference
in fish populations, which are not doing well due to excess harvesting
in many locations.

With the military ships in particular, there are a lot of old sailors
who are happier to have the "old girl" buried at sea than cut up for
scrap. Much of the high-value scrap is removed in the preparation and
cleaning process.

It also generates income from divers who go out to dive on the ship,
either to see the ship, or for the fish and other life that soon grows
on it. In most cases groups of divers raise the money for getting the
things in place, though the Navy does cover some or all of the cleanup
cost - cleaning up their own mess.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl --

Been watching History channel, and the scuttling of big-assed ships.
Also, railroads, NYC Subways, go thru big expense to properly prep/clean
old cars, to dump them in the ocean for coral reefs, etc.

Now, if coral reefs are that important, OK.....

But, if not, why go through all the expense to dump scrap in the ocean,
when these mega-tons of steel could be recycled? With much less expense
and chemical waste ito prep/cleaning, etc.?

Esp. on military ships, where armor can be 15" thick!!
And on railroad cars, where just *one* wheel is 700++ lbs of high quality
alloy steel. Usually 8 wheels (4 wheels per "truck", two trucks per car),
but sometimes more.

Just curious.

--
PV'd
Man, I was thinking just the same thing. If they want to sink something,
sink PLASTIC!

LB

Proctologically Violated©® writes:

Now, if coral reefs are that important, OK.

"Artificial reefs" are a fantasy. Dumping big hunks of garbage on the sea
bed does not work. It's just a phony political excuse to make throwing
something away sound charitable, like giving your busted junk to Goodwill.

In Florida they are paying many times the original "savings" picking up
tires that were dumped offshore to supposedly be an "artificial reef", but
wound up just being garbage. I remember how holy this was all supposed to
be during the "ecology" craze of the 1970s.

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:51:57 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:



I believe all those tires will be a windfall one day. I have an idea that
when they solve solubilization of coal problem (or dustification or
whatever), tires will follow shortly thereafter.
Both have sulfur problems, tires of course worse than coal, but sheeit, the
sulfur reclamation, which is already done in power plants, would solve the
universe's requirement for H2SO4.



It's already there. The cement plant a mile away from me (largest in the UK,
second largest in Europe) now uses shredded tyres as part of it's fuel intake.
Lower sulphur than coal or petroleum-coke. Next stage is to use dried,
shredded landfill waste. I'm all for it, Cement kilns are probably the
cleanest incinerators on the planet due to the high temperatures and long
residence times.



Mark Rand
RTFM

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:16:05 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Awl --

Been watching History channel, and the scuttling of big-assed ships.
Also, railroads, NYC Subways, go thru big expense to properly prep/clean old
cars, to dump them in the ocean for coral reefs, etc.

Now, if coral reefs are that important, OK.....

But, if not, why go through all the expense to dump scrap in the ocean, when
these mega-tons of steel could be recycled? With much less expense and
chemical waste ito prep/cleaning, etc.?

Esp. on military ships, where armor can be 15" thick!!
And on railroad cars, where just *one* wheel is 700++ lbs of high quality
alloy steel. Usually 8 wheels (4 wheels per "truck", two trucks per car),
but sometimes more.

Just curious.


Labor costs of disassembly.

And consumable costs, torch fuel/oxy etc all add to the cost factor.

It takes a damned long time even with a big crew to cut a ship down to
bite sized pieces. There is a village in India where the main
industry is ship wrecking, mostly done for pennies an hour per
coolie..and there are an army of them. And they die like flies in the
process.

You cant do that in the 1st world.

Gunner

Mark Rand wrote:

I'm all for it, Cement kilns are probably the
cleanest incinerators on the planet due to the high temperatures and long
residence times.

IIRC, hazardous waste streams are incinerated in cement kilns.

Wes

On Dec 4, 11:44*pm, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:
But, if not, why go through all the expense to dump scrap in the ocean,
when
these mega-tons of steel could be recycled? *With much less expense and
chemical waste ito prep/cleaning, etc.?

There was a 60 minutes expose on this a couple years ago. The only place
that can do this for less than the cost of the ship is Bangladesh or east
Pakistan. No pollution laws and almost slave labor rates. I guess its just
too damned expensive to do it right.

Karl

There is a problem in design these days, Europe is just beginning to
start addressing the concept of designing end of life into products.

To be fair and accurate, the products of 100 years ago were more
readily recyclable than the products of today.

Best wishes,

Chris

"Richard J Kinch" wrote:
I remember how holy this was all supposed to
be during the "ecology" craze of the 1970s.

It ain't over, they were just looking for their jackboots.

Looks like they'll have them in another month.

God help us all.

Jon

Richard J Kinch wrote:
Proctologically Violated?? writes:

Now, if coral reefs are that important, OK.

"Artificial reefs" are a fantasy. Dumping big hunks of garbage on the sea
bed does not work. It's just a phony political excuse to make throwing
something away sound charitable, like giving your busted junk to Goodwill.

correct. a "reef" has nothing to do with there being no fish left because
commercial fishers haul mile line nets across the oceans.

In Florida they are paying many times the original "savings" picking up
tires that were dumped offshore to supposedly be an "artificial reef", but
wound up just being garbage. I remember how holy this was all supposed to
be during the "ecology" craze of the 1970s.

Well, everything about florida is pretty wrong anyways.

Mark Rand writes:


Cement kilns are probably the cleanest incinerators on the planet due to
the high temperatures and long residence times.

They are used for disposal of prion-infected cattle ("Mad Cow") because
even the prions can't survive the kilm.

I'm told the operators charge big $$$$$ for doing so....

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
Mark Rand writes:


Cement kilns are probably the cleanest incinerators on the planet due to
the high temperatures and long residence times.

They are used for disposal of prion-infected cattle ("Mad Cow") because
even the prions can't survive the kilm.

I think you are mistaken.
How else could you explain banks making mortgages to people without income?
It's the prions.
LOL

JC

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:


Yeah, you'd be in 7th heaven with 15" plate, I'm sure.

I'd build me one hell of a portaband bandsaw. Likely from the top half of a serious
horizontal.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Richard J Kinch wrote:

In Florida they are paying many times the original "savings" picking up
tires that were dumped offshore to supposedly be an "artificial reef", but
wound up just being garbage. I remember how holy this was all supposed to
be during the "ecology" craze of the 1970s.


The Greenies mislead us? How can that be. I'm celebrating Global warming by snowblowing
the drive way most every day.

Wes