What are they good for? I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. But on what? And why? V

"Vernon" wrote in message
...
What are they good for? I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. But on what?

On anything you want to grind flat. g

And why? V

Most of their commercial use is in the tool and die industry, where they're
used to make extremely flat surfaces, to extremely accurate dimensions. It's
also possible to use a shaped wheel to cut 2D contours and grooves.
Multi-piece blanking dies are sometimes made from sections ground on surface
grinders, with several pieces making up a complete internally contoured
shape. With special fixtures, they can be used to cut complex shapes like
those on cutting tools.

The materials they cut in those applications are mostly hardened tool steels
of all types. But they can be used on anything you'd care to grind. With
diamond wheels, you can cut carbide and ceramics.

It's not a primary home-shop tool but they're darned handy, if you can get
one for a reasonable price that's in good condition. Their bedways
(generally roller type) are protected against grinding grit but the way
covers and other protective devices may be shot on an old one, in which case
the ways can be in very bad shape.

--
Ed Huntress

On Oct 22, 11:22*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Vernon" wrote in message

...

What are they good for? *I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. *But on what?

On anything you want to grind flat. g

And why? *V

Most of their commercial use is in the tool and die industry, where they're
used to make extremely flat surfaces, to extremely accurate dimensions. It's
also possible to use a shaped wheel to cut 2D contours and grooves.
Multi-piece blanking dies are sometimes made from sections ground on surface
grinders, with several pieces making up a complete internally contoured
shape. With special fixtures, they can be used to cut complex shapes like
those on cutting tools.

The materials they cut in those applications are mostly hardened tool steels
of all types. But they can be used on anything you'd care to grind. With
diamond wheels, you can cut carbide and ceramics.

It's not a primary home-shop tool but they're darned handy, if you can get
one for a reasonable price that's in good condition. Their bedways
(generally roller type) are protected against grinding grit but the way
covers and other protective devices may be shot on an old one, in which case
the ways can be in very bad shape.

--
Ed Huntress

Thanks. "Tool & Die" making is something I know is "out there" but
have only the haziest notion of what it is. V

"Vernon" wrote in message
...
On Oct 22, 11:22 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Vernon" wrote in message

...

What are they good for? I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. But on what?

On anything you want to grind flat. g

And why? V

Most of their commercial use is in the tool and die industry, where
they're
used to make extremely flat surfaces, to extremely accurate dimensions.
It's
also possible to use a shaped wheel to cut 2D contours and grooves.
Multi-piece blanking dies are sometimes made from sections ground on
surface
grinders, with several pieces making up a complete internally contoured
shape. With special fixtures, they can be used to cut complex shapes like
those on cutting tools.

The materials they cut in those applications are mostly hardened tool
steels
of all types. But they can be used on anything you'd care to grind. With
diamond wheels, you can cut carbide and ceramics.

It's not a primary home-shop tool but they're darned handy, if you can get
one for a reasonable price that's in good condition. Their bedways
(generally roller type) are protected against grinding grit but the way
covers and other protective devices may be shot on an old one, in which
case
the ways can be in very bad shape.

--
Ed Huntress

Thanks. "Tool & Die" making is something I know is "out there" but
have only the haziest notion of what it is. V

It's a high-class end of metalworking manufacturing. The term is a broad one
that includes all of the production tooling made for high-volume metal
stamping and blanking, bending and forming, forging, die casting, and (the
biggest part of it these days) moldmaking, which is the making of plastic
injection molds. These tools are made mostly of exotic alloy steels,
hardened, or sometimes of tungsten carbide. A die set for making some
high-volume product can cost upwards of $100,000. For stamping car body
parts, the tools can cost many times that much. When a car model changes and
the panel is no longer used, the tool is scrapped.

Surface grinders are used to square up those blocks of steel on the smaller
tools, which is the primary part of the business, and to grind various
features on the tools. Some of their functions have been replaced by hard
milling and electrical discharge machining (EDM), and there are other types
of grinders, such as CNC profile grinders, that replace some work that was
once done on surface grinders. But surface grinders are still essential
machine tools in any tool, die, or mold shop.

FWIW, some custom gages for measuring manufactured parts are also made in
those shops -- a specialized type of t&d shop, usually, called a gage shop.
Custom gage making is considered to be a part of the tool-and-die business.
("Gauge" is usually spelled "gage" in this business, when it applies to a
tool made for measurement.) A part of the t&d business that used to be one
of the largest, making jigs for drilling and fixtures for production
milling, has declined sharply with the advent of CNC.

Toolmaking often requires accuracies measured in millionths of an inch. It
requires specialized training for commercial work. If you added up the
output of all of the tool-and-die shops in the United States, it would
barely make it to the Fortune 500. But it's the cornerstone of
manufacturing, having a huge leverage effect on the manufacturing industry.

The Chinese are still not very good at it, with a few exceptions. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Oct 23, 2:09 pm, Vernon wrote:
What are they good for? I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. But on what? And why? V

I cant be as techo as some of the others, who gave a good tutorial.
What I know about them was learnt in class by using them, three
applications ( practical) come to mind.

1.For squaring off a V-block , this was made using the horizontal and
vertical mill, and then finished to tolerance with the surface
grinder. Final accuracy of the V block was checked against a master
square.
2.Another application was grinding a piece of steel plate flat and
true - this was to be able to check the head setup on a Bridgport
milling machine using a finger gauge. Any surface irregularities of
the plate would have stuffed up the test reading.
3.A variation is the cylindrical grinder - I turned a MT2 taper in the
lathe, 0.5mm oversize. This will be put onto the cylindrical grinder
and ground to final tolerance - which can be 1 micron, all going well.

AND - they give a BEAUTIFUL surface finish to your job.

so. There. I want one. But its not likely. (Wanna better lathe, and
mill, and lotsa tooling...)

Andrew VK3BFA

On Oct 23, 12:09*am, Vernon wrote:
What are they good for? *I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. *But on what? *And why? *V

A good one will grind a mirrorlike finish to micron accuracy and
flatness.

Mine leaves visible ripples and might reach 0.0002" parallelism across
a small part on a good day, which is still far better than my 50 year
old milling machine can do. I use it rather than a belt sander to
clean up milled surfaces, and to smooth and square the three reference
faces on a block of annealed scrap steel before carving the part out
of it.

It's most recent task was to flatten the inboard end of a chainsaw bar
to try to fix an oil leak. Before that I used it to un-warp the head
of an old air compressor, taking light cuts off alternate sides until
it would sit flat on the chuck without rocking. Both parts were thin
and flexible and would be difficult to clamp down on a mill but easy
on the magnetic chuck.

I can't argue that they are really necessary in a home shop but if you
find a small one at a good price they are quite useful for sharpening
end mills etc and smoothing mild and hardened steel surfaces without
rounding the edges like a belt sander. Unlike a mill they don't care
how hard the steel is and the mag chuck lets you cut the entire top of
a thin part, like a shim washer that would be tricky to machine any
other way.

Jim Wilkins

"Vernon" wrote in message
...
What are they good for? I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. But on what? And why? V

Sheets of granite. Concrete floors prior to flooring with good flooring.
Lots of "stuff".

Steve

On Oct 22, 11:09*pm, Vernon wrote:
What are they good for? *I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. *But on what? *And why? *V

I don't know about woodworking and metals, but we often use grinders
in my ceramics class. When the glaze runs down in the kiln, it sticks
to the bottom, which causes the piece to be seriously off balance. We
often use the grinders to create a smooth, even surface. - Student

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Vernon wrote:

What are they good for? I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. But on what? And why? V

What I've been using my 8"x24" one for this year is:-

Grinding the widths of hardened gears to exact size to fit between the guides
in a gearbox.

Grinding the covers and frame of said gearbox flat to get an oiltight seal.

Grinding a lathe bed flat.

Grinding all faces on some 30-60 degree squares. to mount said bed on to grind
the dovetails on it back to shape.

(with the help of a spin indexer and collet) grinding some of the shank of a
reamer down so that I could ream to the end of a long hole.

Grinding accurate thread and gear cutting lathe and shaper tools.

Making parallels for the shaper.

Squaring up and equalizing the sizes of components for a sine table.



Materials handled have varied from 12L14 type to hardened 4340 to cast iron to
HRS rubbish.


Surface grinders are like any other machine tool. No imaginable applications
for one until you've got one. Once you've got one it sits there saying "please
let me do that job" to you every time you walk past it.

Mark Rand
RTFM

Vernon wrote:

What are they good for? I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. But on what? And why? V


Well, when you work with hard things, you have to grind. Nice tools to have but I'd
concentrate on lathe and mill first.

If you do get a Surface grinder, keep it away from your lathe and mill. Grinders tend to
launch a lot of grinding dust into the air that gets carried around a small shop.

I'd love to have one, but so far, the money would be better spent on new endmills and
other things.

It is the last of the big three you should buy.

Wes

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:44:38 -0400, Wes wrote:

Vernon wrote:

What are they good for? I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. But on what? And why? V


Well, when you work with hard things, you have to grind. Nice tools to have but I'd
concentrate on lathe and mill first.

If you do get a Surface grinder, keep it away from your lathe and mill. Grinders tend to
launch a lot of grinding dust into the air that gets carried around a small shop.

I'd love to have one, but so far, the money would be better spent on new endmills and
other things.

It is the last of the big three you should buy.

Wes


Having a surface grinder pretty much makes it a requirement that you
make a seperate grinding "room" or area in which you do all your
bench, belt and surface grinding.

Ive isolated all such work from my lathes and mills

Gunner

Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.

On Oct 24, 6:26*pm, Mark Rand wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Vernon wrote:
What are they good for? *I just don't get it although I've done my
homework and have even consulted wikipedia, that ultimate authority!
I understand they will grind down a surface in infinitessimally small
increments and produce a beautiful surface. *But on what? *And why? *V

What I've been using my 8"x24" one for this year is:-

Grinding the widths of hardened gears to exact size to fit between the guides
in a gearbox.

Grinding the covers and frame of said gearbox flat to get an oiltight seal.

Grinding a lathe bed flat.

Grinding all faces on some 30-60 degree squares. to mount said bed on to grind
the dovetails on it back to shape.

(with the help of a spin indexer and collet) grinding some of the shank of a
reamer down so that I could ream to the end of a long hole.

Grinding accurate thread and gear cutting lathe and shaper tools.

Making parallels for the shaper.

Squaring up and equalizing the sizes of components for a sine table.

Materials handled have varied from 12L14 type to hardened 4340 to cast iron to
HRS rubbish.

Surface grinders are like any other machine tool. No imaginable applications
for one until you've got one. Once you've got one it sits there saying "please
let me do that job" to you every time you walk past it.

Mark Rand
RTFM

Wow. V

On 2008-10-26, Steve Ackman wrote:
In , on Sat, 25 Oct
2008 19:44:38 -0400, Wes, wrote:

Well, when you work with hard things, you have to grind. Nice tools to have but I'd
concentrate on lathe and mill first.

If you do get a Surface grinder, keep it away from your lathe and mill. Grinders tend to
launch a lot of grinding dust into the air that gets carried around a small shop.

All the surface grinders I can recall using had
coolant.

My little Sanford 4x8" surface grinder does not have coolant.
It has an electro-magnetic chuck, powered from circuitry in the base,
and the manual warns to *not* use coolant with the electro-magnetic
chuck.

The circuitry in the base does not include a transformer to
isolate the power line from the chuck, so I tend to agree with the "no
coolant" rule for that machine.

Matter of fact, where I went though my
apprenticeship, only the mud produced by a grinding
machine was "swarf." Pretty much any other machine
made "chips."

I think that the more general meaning applied to "swarf" came
from those in the UK.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Steve Ackman wrote:

Well, when you work with hard things, you have to grind. Nice tools to have but I'd
concentrate on lathe and mill first.

If you do get a Surface grinder, keep it away from your lathe and mill. Grinders tend to
launch a lot of grinding dust into the air that gets carried around a small shop.

All the surface grinders I can recall using had
coolant. Matter of fact, where I went though my
apprenticeship, only the mud produced by a grinding
machine was "swarf." Pretty much any other machine
made "chips."


I've seen the effects of a Harrig 618 placed too close to a lathe. Grinder was always run
with coolant but an astonishing amount of abrasive crud made its way to the lathe. Sure
made me feel sick to see that nice Leblonde being treated that way. During my nightly
walk around, I wiped the lathe down to help save it.

It and and the rest of the machine tools were moved a while back to another area of the
shop, much better layout, maybe the lathe will live a long life now.

Wes

Wes

"Steve Ackman" wrote in message
rg...
In , on Mon, 27 Oct
2008 20:24:52 -0400, Wes, wrote:
Steve Ackman wrote:

All the surface grinders I can recall using had
coolant. Matter of fact, where I went though my
apprenticeship, only the mud produced by a grinding
machine was "swarf." Pretty much any other machine
made "chips."


I've seen the effects of a Harrig 618 placed too close to a lathe.
Grinder was always run
with coolant but an astonishing amount of abrasive crud made its way to
the lathe. Sure
made me feel sick to see that nice Leblonde being treated that way.
During my nightly
walk around, I wiped the lathe down to help save it.

It and and the rest of the machine tools were moved a while back to
another area of the
shop, much better layout, maybe the lathe will live a long life now.

Both places I specifically worked in precision
grinding, the grind shops were set off.
At PNSY, the small machines were enclosed in their
own four walls and the big grinders and hones were
pretty much together out on the floor bounded by
aisles.
At NADEP, the grind shop was just segregated to its
own section of the machine shop by aisles.

Every production grinding machine in both shops ran
coolant (or oil). Only the tool and cutter grinders
(also in their own section) ever ground anything dry...
and they all had a hose from the central vacuum.

Tool and die grinding usually is done dry. Production grinding usually is
done wet.

--
Ed Huntress