The Dow Jones index dropped over 500 points today leaving the market at it's
lowest point since 2005. Lehman Brothers investment bank declared
bankruptcy. Bank of America bought Merrill Lynch and AIG is on the verge of
bankruptcy too. Wachovia or Washington Mutual banks may be the next shoes to
drop. The result of all these financial disasters is that the country's
financial markets are in turmoil and money is being lost in massive amounts.
All of this can be laid at the feet of the deregulation of the financial
markets that is at the heart of the economic philosophy of the republican
party. The Bush administration made a decision to let the markets regulate
themselves ever since taking office. Now we see the results of no
regulation. A bear market on Wall street, a credit crisis, a real estate
crash, and now the financial markets falling apart. After all this, some
people still want to put republicans back in power come November. John
McCain doesn't know much about economics, according to him, but he is a
believer of deregulation of markets. Can the country afford another leader
that thinks "hands off" the markets is the way to operate? Forget about
Palin. Do we want more republicans at the helm of America's economic ship?
You'd have to be crazy to let those people stay in charge of our money and
financial institutions. The answer is simple; No More Republicans.

Hawke

Hawke wrote:
The Dow Jones index dropped over 500 points today leaving the market at it's
lowest point since 2005. Lehman Brothers investment bank declared
bankruptcy. Bank of America bought Merrill Lynch and AIG is on the verge of
bankruptcy too. Wachovia or Washington Mutual banks may be the next shoes to
drop. The result of all these financial disasters is that the country's
financial markets are in turmoil and money is being lost in massive amounts.
All of this can be laid at the feet of the deregulation of the financial
markets that is at the heart of the economic philosophy of the republican
party. The Bush administration made a decision to let the markets regulate
themselves ever since taking office. Now we see the results of no
regulation. A bear market on Wall street, a credit crisis, a real estate
crash, and now the financial markets falling apart. After all this, some
people still want to put republicans back in power come November. John
McCain doesn't know much about economics, according to him, but he is a
believer of deregulation of markets. Can the country afford another leader
that thinks "hands off" the markets is the way to operate? Forget about
Palin. Do we want more republicans at the helm of America's economic ship?
You'd have to be crazy to let those people stay in charge of our money and
financial institutions. The answer is simple; No More Republicans.

Hawke



I think you'll find that the de-regulation started under Slick Willie
Clintdud.

Jim

Jim Chandler wrote:
Hawke wrote:
The Dow Jones index dropped over 500 points today leaving the market
at it's lowest point since 2005. Lehman Brothers investment bank
declared bankruptcy. Bank of America bought Merrill Lynch and AIG is
on the verge of bankruptcy too. Wachovia or Washington Mutual banks
may be the next shoes to drop. The result of all these financial
disasters is that the country's financial markets are in turmoil and
money is being lost in massive amounts. All of this can be laid at
the feet of the deregulation of the financial markets that is at the
heart of the economic philosophy of the republican party. The Bush
administration made a decision to let the markets regulate
themselves ever since taking office. Now we see the results of no
regulation. A bear market on Wall street, a credit crisis, a real
estate crash, and now the financial markets falling apart. After all
this, some people still want to put republicans back in power come
November. John McCain doesn't know much about economics, according
to him, but he is a believer of deregulation of markets. Can the
country afford another leader that thinks "hands off" the markets is
the way to operate? Forget about Palin. Do we want more republicans
at the helm of America's economic ship? You'd have to be crazy to
let those people stay in charge of our money and financial
institutions. The answer is simple; No More Republicans.

Hawke



I think you'll find that the de-regulation started under Slick Willie
Clintdud.


You need to think a little harder then jimbo.
ERISA was before Clinton and when Ronnie allowed mortgage backed securities
he kicked of this nightmare.


--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

"John R. Carroll" wrote:

I think you'll find that the de-regulation started under Slick Willie
Clintdud.


You need to think a little harder then jimbo.
was before Clinton and when Ronnie allowed mortgage backed securities
he kicked of this nightmare.

Okay, assuming this is right, why didn't Billy Clinton do anything to fix it? I think he
had control of things up to 1994. Now if you said GWB did this blaming Republicans would
be in order.

What you seem to miss is that money buys congress. Sometimes both sides take the money
but one side sits back and lets the other side take the rap. There is a lot of
bipartisanism in Congress.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

I think you'll find that the de-regulation started under Slick Willie
Clintdud.


You need to think a little harder then jimbo.
was before Clinton and when Ronnie allowed mortgage backed securities
he kicked of this nightmare.

Okay, assuming this is right, why didn't Billy Clinton do anything to fix
it? I think he
had control of things up to 1994. Now if you said GWB did this blaming
Republicans would
be in order.

What you seem to miss is that money buys congress. Sometimes both sides
take the money
but one side sits back and lets the other side take the rap. There is a
lot of
bipartisanism in Congress.

Wes


Aren't the democrats in control of Congress?

Tom Gardner wrote:
"Wes" wrote in message
...
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

I think you'll find that the de-regulation started under Slick
Willie Clintdud.


You need to think a little harder then jimbo.
was before Clinton and when Ronnie allowed mortgage backed
securities he kicked of this nightmare.

Okay, assuming this is right, why didn't Billy Clinton do anything
to fix it? I think he
had control of things up to 1994. Now if you said GWB did this
blaming Republicans would
be in order.

What you seem to miss is that money buys congress. Sometimes both
sides take the money
but one side sits back and lets the other side take the rap. There
is a lot of
bipartisanism in Congress.

Wes


Aren't the democrats in control of Congress?

Not for a long time Tom.
They have had a simple majority for the last 20 months but that's it.
The last majority was Republican and it lasted ten years.
Six of those years included control of all three branches.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:56:41 -0400, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

You need to think a little harder then jimbo.
was before Clinton and when Ronnie allowed mortgage backed securities
he kicked of this nightmare.

Okay, assuming this is right, why didn't Billy Clinton do anything to fix
it? I think he
had control of things up to 1994.
------------
I think you just explained the real reason for the impeachment
drive, the BJ being the excuse.

From somewhat patchy evidence this was exactly what he was
attempting to do, which is unusual as he comes from a
historically corrupt political background [Arkansas] so things
must have been really rank. Still, even a crook doesn't want
their town burned down as then there would be nothing to steal.

His major mistake was in forgetting just who he was dealing with,
and take precautions accordingly. It is well to remember that
this is the same group that made the mob "an offer they couldn't
refuse" for Las Vagus (which they gratefully and humbly
accepted).

FWIW -- the first obvious breach of the protections enacted as
result of the 1929 financial implosion was the repeal of
regulation Q by the Depository Institutions Deregulation and
Monetary Control Act of ==1980,== which allowed the FDIC to set
the permissible interest rates for demand deposits [hot money]
and checking accounts [0%]. This allowed the "high roller" banks
to offer high deposit rates leading to speculation with the money
and the classical trap where they lent long [30 year mortgages]
with short term money [hot/brokered demand deposits]. As soon as
other investment opportunities offered better returns [such as
another bank with higher interest rates] the hot money was
pulled, and the banks collapsed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-Steagall_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_Q

A key term is "disintermediation" where individuals invest their
money directly rather than through established organizations such
as banks and insurance companies which both pool the individual
funds and assume responsibility, in addition to having a greater
understanding of the risks, but charge a [implicit] fee resulting
in a [slightly] lower return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disintermediation
http://www.utdallas.edu/~chaf/ba4345/trans/ch11.ppt
if of interest google on "financial disintermediation" for
about 5k hits.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:56:41 -0400, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"Wes" wrote in message
...
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

I think you'll find that the de-regulation started under Slick Willie
Clintdud.


You need to think a little harder then jimbo.
was before Clinton and when Ronnie allowed mortgage backed securities
he kicked of this nightmare.

Okay, assuming this is right, why didn't Billy Clinton do anything to fix
it? I think he
had control of things up to 1994. Now if you said GWB did this blaming
Republicans would
be in order.

What you seem to miss is that money buys congress. Sometimes both sides
take the money
but one side sits back and lets the other side take the rap. There is a
lot of
bipartisanism in Congress.

Wes


Aren't the democrats in control of Congress?


Ayup..and they still continue to fund an "illegal and immoral war"
too.



"Obama, raises taxes and kills babies. Sarah Palin - raises babies
and kills taxes." Pyotr Flipivich

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "Tom Gardner"
wrote on Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:56:41 -0400 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"John R. Carroll" wrote:
I think you'll find that the de-regulation started under Slick Willie
Clintdud.
You need to think a little harder then jimbo.
was before Clinton and when Ronnie allowed mortgage backed securities
he kicked of this nightmare.

Okay, assuming this is right, why didn't Billy Clinton do anything to fix
it? I think he
had control of things up to 1994. Now if you said GWB did this blaming
Republicans would be in order.

What you seem to miss is that money buys congress. Sometimes both sides
take the money but one side sits back and lets the other side take the rap. There is a
lot of bipartisanism in Congress.

Wes

Aren't the democrats in control of Congress?

Hard to say. Has the war been defunded? Are the troops brought
home from Iraq? Is President George W. Bush still in office?
No? then I'd say the answer is "nope, the Democrats are not in
control." And considering what their press office is doing, "not in
control" is an understatement.

--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries

Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

I think you'll find that the de-regulation started under Slick
Willie Clintdud.


You need to think a little harder then jimbo.
was before Clinton and when Ronnie allowed mortgage backed securities
he kicked of this nightmare.

Okay, assuming this is right, why didn't Billy Clinton do anything to
fix it? I think he had control of things up to 1994. Now if you
said GWB did this blaming Republicans would be in order.

What you seem to miss is that money buys congress. Sometimes both
sides take the money but one side sits back and lets the other side
take the rap. There is a lot of bipartisanism in Congress.


The Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) was what ended
the era of defined benefit pension plans and ushered in the defined
contribution system you know today.

IRA's were the first outgrowth and you could only open an IRA at a bank in
the beginning. 401K's, Roth IRA's, Keogh's and the rest followed as the
defined benefit era ended.
We now are so far along that these things can even be self directed.
In the end there was a lot of new money. A LOT.
Just sitting there.
Waiting.
But not until the 90's.

Inflation was a real issue in the 70's as well. Richard Nixon imposed wage
and price controls for a while.
There were a couple of recessions but they were relatively brief and had
triggering events. As 1979 rolled around things came to a head. Inflation
hit double digits and when that happened the nations originators of
mortgages were in real trouble. Savings and loans were operating in a way
that required them to borrow money at nearly twice the rate they had lent it
out at in the form of long term mortgages and they were going broke. Paul
Volker had determined that inflation was the most dangerous threat to our
economy and had raised interest rates to the point that Prime plus one was
twenty percent. Usury laws had to be rewritten but until they were, lending
effectively stopped except in certain commercial transactions. Mortgages
were at 14 percent.

It was at this point that the Congress passed a piece of legislation that
allowed Savings and Loans to apply their current losses against the years of
taxes they'd paid over the previous ten years. They would get checks back
from the IRS. The losses, however had to be monetized before they could be
useful in this scheme and it was hard to do.
Then came Salomon Brothers Inc. and a short, fat little Italian who was
dying to get out of the back room. IIRC we are up to 1984.
His idea, and what he did, was to take bundles of mortgages that S&L's were
desperate to unload and package them for sale as bonds. Salomon Brothers
would generate a fee, the S&L's would reap their tax benefit in huge chunks
and money would then flow back into the new mortgage market. He and a small
team hit the road to promote their new product and after nearly running out
of gas, they sold the first $25 million of bands to Bank of America. Half
way through the champagne and caviar one of the lawyers piped in that what
had been done might not be legal. He was right. Laws had been written to
protect the baking industry and these sorts of securities couldn't be sold
to federally insured institutions without having first been "franked" by
either Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae. Fannie was the lighted touch due to
competitive reasons - they were the junior GSE at the time and were
suffering a big case of penis envy.

The S&L's went wild selling every mortgage they had at steep discounts all
the while refilling their coffers with the tax rebates they received as they
reported huge losses on paper. This was how the Reagan administration
"saved" the mortgage banking industry. They used our tax dollars as a gift
to the industry.
M&A BOOMED. All of the money flowing into S&L's had to go somewhere so they
all started buying the debt used to fund mergers and acquisitions. That debt
is was called "High Yield" bonds and what came to be known as Junk bonds in
the end.

The years between 1990 and today have been years of laws being modified or
just plain thrown out in order to give the people who create these sorts of
debt instruments the greatest possible access to the tremendous wealth
Americans have stored in the savings and investment plans created as the
result of The Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA).

Our pockets have been picked nearly clean at this point and by the publics
own demand for earnings, not it's consent.
We'll see another Pecora Commission in eighteen months and we need it.

Charlie Rose had four of Wall Streets top players on yesterday and if you
think for a minute that I am pessimistic or that George is being harsh you
should have heard them. None of the four thought we were going to have
anything less than complete collapse over the next year.

They made a convincing case and I'm afraid - really afraid - they are
correct.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

In article ,
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Then came Salomon Brothers Inc. and a short, fat little Italian who was
dying to get out of the back room. IIRC we are up to 1984.
His idea, and what he did, was to take bundles of mortgages that S&L's were
desperate to unload and package them for sale as bonds. Salomon Brothers
would generate a fee, the S&L's would reap their tax benefit in huge chunks
and money would then flow back into the new mortgage market. He and a small
team hit the road to promote their new product and after nearly running out
of gas, they sold the first $25 million of bands to Bank of America. Half
way through the champagne and caviar one of the lawyers piped in that what
had been done might not be legal. He was right. Laws had been written to
protect the baking industry and these sorts of securities couldn't be sold
to federally insured institutions without having first been "franked" by
either Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae. Fannie was the lighted touch due to
competitive reasons - they were the junior GSE at the time and were
suffering a big case of penis envy.

The book "Liar's Poker" is an excellent and entertaining study of these
events. The author, Michael Lewis, had a first-hand view, as he worked
at Salomon Brothers.

--
Jedd Haas - Artist - New Orleans, LA
http://www.gallerytungsten.com

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

I think you'll find that the de-regulation started under Slick
Willie Clintdud.


You need to think a little harder then jimbo.
was before Clinton and when Ronnie allowed mortgage backed securities
he kicked of this nightmare.

Okay, assuming this is right, why didn't Billy Clinton do anything to
fix it? I think he had control of things up to 1994. Now if you
said GWB did this blaming Republicans would be in order.

What you seem to miss is that money buys congress. Sometimes both
sides take the money but one side sits back and lets the other side
take the rap. There is a lot of bipartisanism in Congress.


The Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) was what ended
the era of defined benefit pension plans and ushered in the defined
contribution system you know today.

IRA's were the first outgrowth and you could only open an IRA at a bank in
the beginning. 401K's, Roth IRA's, Keogh's and the rest followed as the
defined benefit era ended.
We now are so far along that these things can even be self directed.
In the end there was a lot of new money. A LOT.
Just sitting there.
Waiting.
But not until the 90's.

Inflation was a real issue in the 70's as well. Richard Nixon imposed wage
and price controls for a while.
There were a couple of recessions but they were relatively brief and had
triggering events. As 1979 rolled around things came to a head. Inflation
hit double digits and when that happened the nations originators of
mortgages were in real trouble. Savings and loans were operating in a way
that required them to borrow money at nearly twice the rate they had lent
it
out at in the form of long term mortgages and they were going broke. Paul
Volker had determined that inflation was the most dangerous threat to our
economy and had raised interest rates to the point that Prime plus one was
twenty percent. Usury laws had to be rewritten but until they were,
lending
effectively stopped except in certain commercial transactions. Mortgages
were at 14 percent.

It was at this point that the Congress passed a piece of legislation that
allowed Savings and Loans to apply their current losses against the years
of
taxes they'd paid over the previous ten years. They would get checks back
from the IRS. The losses, however had to be monetized before they could be
useful in this scheme and it was hard to do.
Then came Salomon Brothers Inc. and a short, fat little Italian who was
dying to get out of the back room. IIRC we are up to 1984.
His idea, and what he did, was to take bundles of mortgages that S&L's
were
desperate to unload and package them for sale as bonds. Salomon Brothers
would generate a fee, the S&L's would reap their tax benefit in huge
chunks
and money would then flow back into the new mortgage market. He and a
small
team hit the road to promote their new product and after nearly running
out
of gas, they sold the first $25 million of bands to Bank of America. Half
way through the champagne and caviar one of the lawyers piped in that what
had been done might not be legal. He was right. Laws had been written to
protect the baking industry and these sorts of securities couldn't be sold
to federally insured institutions without having first been "franked" by
either Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae. Fannie was the lighted touch due to
competitive reasons - they were the junior GSE at the time and were
suffering a big case of penis envy.

The S&L's went wild selling every mortgage they had at steep discounts all
the while refilling their coffers with the tax rebates they received as
they
reported huge losses on paper. This was how the Reagan administration
"saved" the mortgage banking industry. They used our tax dollars as a gift
to the industry.
M&A BOOMED. All of the money flowing into S&L's had to go somewhere so
they
all started buying the debt used to fund mergers and acquisitions. That
debt
is was called "High Yield" bonds and what came to be known as Junk bonds
in
the end.

The years between 1990 and today have been years of laws being modified or
just plain thrown out in order to give the people who create these sorts
of
debt instruments the greatest possible access to the tremendous wealth
Americans have stored in the savings and investment plans created as the
result of The Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA).

Our pockets have been picked nearly clean at this point and by the publics
own demand for earnings, not it's consent.
We'll see another Pecora Commission in eighteen months and we need it.

Charlie Rose had four of Wall Streets top players on yesterday and if you
think for a minute that I am pessimistic or that George is being harsh you
should have heard them. None of the four thought we were going to have
anything less than complete collapse over the next year.

They made a convincing case and I'm afraid - really afraid - they are
correct.


Is that supposed to be a surprise? I guess it is but only to supply siders
and Neocons. Anyone besides those foolish idealists knows from our past
history that whenever business gets too powerful and gains the ability to
make the government jump to it's commands we get the same scenario. Control
of business comes off, a period of prosperity ensues, a boom if you like,
and then the inevitable collapse follows. The worst example of this scenario
was the Great Depression. You would have though we would have learned our
lesson from that experience once and for all but that's clearly not the
case. Business has it's republican flunky in the White House and with a
compliant congress everything that kept the system in check was chucked out
the window. How long will it take to fix things and how bad will it get is
hard to say but it's going to be the worst financial crisis since the 1930s.
My only question is whether the country has had enough of this stuff and
will elect a government that will put the brakes on an out of control
business community. We'll see in November if it would prefer some more of
the same or do they recognize a change has to be made and I don't mean from
one pro business republican to another one.

Hawke

All of the bad loans given to first time buyers and brokered by libs
that sold to those that didn't have a valid ID or work history.
When they vaporized and left the bank with the worn home, the housing
market fluttered and slid. Is there any reason not to think this is the
case when Fanny and Freddy were given below cost money and sold higher
and made money left and right and sold blocks of homes to lots of companies.
Government backed loans that went sour.

Makes you wonder why the junk bond types got into this and caused a failure.

Hum.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Hawke wrote:
The Dow Jones index dropped over 500 points today leaving the market at it's
lowest point since 2005. Lehman Brothers investment bank declared
bankruptcy. Bank of America bought Merrill Lynch and AIG is on the verge of
bankruptcy too. Wachovia or Washington Mutual banks may be the next shoes to
drop. The result of all these financial disasters is that the country's
financial markets are in turmoil and money is being lost in massive amounts.
All of this can be laid at the feet of the deregulation of the financial
markets that is at the heart of the economic philosophy of the republican
party. The Bush administration made a decision to let the markets regulate
themselves ever since taking office. Now we see the results of no
regulation. A bear market on Wall street, a credit crisis, a real estate
crash, and now the financial markets falling apart. After all this, some
people still want to put republicans back in power come November. John
McCain doesn't know much about economics, according to him, but he is a
believer of deregulation of markets. Can the country afford another leader
that thinks "hands off" the markets is the way to operate? Forget about
Palin. Do we want more republicans at the helm of America's economic ship?
You'd have to be crazy to let those people stay in charge of our money and
financial institutions. The answer is simple; No More Republicans.

Hawke




----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---