Interim report (2nd post, the 1st apparently didn't go thru)

My origonal plan was to have roof rain water fill the cistern, but there
was a problem. The north side of my roof is partially shaded by a big
oak tree, and I have spent years experimenting with all types of gutter
guards to keep the debris out of the gutter and thus out of the cistern.
Meanwhile, I was filling the cistern with spring water and using it
during power failures (as long as 4 days) and during the rare drouth.
My spring was pretty reliable, flowing 50 gal/min during the normal dry
season in the summer.

This changed several years back when we has a multi-year drough that
actually caused the spring to stop for a month. The cistern carried me
through, and I was able to rig up a temporary water source (puddle) from
other nearby springs that flowed enough to let me refill the cistern in
24 hrs when needed even though the flow was too little (less than 2 gpm)
for direct household use. This year I saw the drought coming to E. Tn
even as the midwest was getting flooded. To really break the drough we
need the wind patterns that brought Katrina, and we need winter rains to
rebuild the water table - summer rains make the grass green but do not
rebuild the water table. I made the decision that I would not be able
to use the north roof for cistern water in the forseeable future.

So I started a 3-part plan. Part 1 was to separate the water from the
north roof from the south roof water and pipe it into the cistern thru a
crude bypass valve I fashoned from a 3² cross. This I finished
(temporarily) with the drain piped crisscrossing under my porch. My
house is built on a hillside, with the north corner porch almost at
ground level and the south corner about 13¹ high. The cistern is
located next to the porch, the top barely a foot below porch level, so
the piping under the porch has very little slope.

Part 2 design is finished (thanks to RCM ideas) and I am accumulating
parts. This phase will allow automatic filling of the cistern when we
are away or sleeping. It is designed around an Austrailian idea of a
ball floating up in a drainpipe and at the top it closes off a tee
alowing the roof water to flow horizontally into the cistern.
http://www.rainharvesting.com.au/first_flush_water_diverters.asp In
my case I made 2 changes; I found a nice cheap ($20) 3² valve (google
Valterra Bladex) to put at the bottom of the downpipe to divert all the
water when the cistern is full, and I¹m using a 4¹ section of 6² pipe to
increase the captured volume to 5 gallons before the water is diverted
into the cistern. A small calibrated leak will reset the system after
the rain stops. I also will likely use a cross at the top instead of a
tee so I can see inside and monitor how things are working.

I could have used either a 6² pipe (5 gal) or a 10¹ pipe (16 gal), I had
both in my stockpipe. The 6² is a lot easier to work with. In looking
at 3² to 6² couplings, it immediately became apparent the price was way
too high and I also needed to be able to disassemble the apparatus for
maintainance so I¹m going to put flanged ends on the pipes - I¹ll make
the low pressure flanges myself since 6² flanges cost a king¹s ransom
and are unnecessarily large for such low pressure (3 psi max).

The one part I lack is a floating ball, larger than 3² and smaller than
5². I could use a ballasted 2-liter bottle, but a ball would be more
elegant and less likely to hang up. I have not yet found a toy ball of
the right size, all ideas appreciated.

Part 3 involves the 40 deg flange this thread addresses. This cannot
actually be done until the drough breaks and I can empty the cistern.
The idea is to replace the crappy (sch 50) pipe I have going into the
cistern with a more solid sch 40, and add an overflow pipe (1.5²?).
Right now the overflow is around the inlet pipe where the epoxy joint
failed. I will also have to enlarge the hole in the SS cistern slightly
and add another hole for the overflow. I want the flange so I can grip
the inlet (& overflow) pipes so they don¹t wobble and break the joint
and keep it light tight and bug proof. I¹ve expanded my ideas a lot
from this RCM discussion, I¹m sure I can work something out when the
time (and rain) comes.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Aug 18, 6:58*am, nick hull wrote:
Interim report (2nd post, the 1st apparently didn't go thru)

My origonal plan was to have roof rain water fill the cistern, but there
was a problem. *The north side of my roof is partially shaded by a big
oak tree, and I have spent years experimenting with all types of gutter
guards to keep the debris out of the gutter and thus out of the cistern. *

I have town water with outdoor use restrictions so I tried a cistern a
few years ago to water some freshly seeded lawn. Like you oaks
overhang the roof and fill the gutters with leaves and mud. Rather
than trying to keep it out I made aluminum gutter hangers that don't
block the top, and scoop the debris out from the ground with a Gutter
Getter scoop on an extension pole. It's easy where the roof is one
storey up and possible where it's two. I left off the caps on the end
downspout tees so the muck can slide out.

The cistern was a 55 gallon drum sprayed with LPS-3 inside and lined
with several big plastic bags, which leaked. With the LPS-3 and no air
circulation the steel barely rusted.

The downspout dumped onto a piece of old bedsheet supported by
hardware cloth. It was only meant to keep mosquitos out but the cloth
and the moss that grew on it filtered the crud out of the water quite
well. The water was clear and no sediment built up in the bag.

New England usually has more water than we need, our water problems
are flooding and washed-out roads or removing minerals from well
water. How do those of you in drier areas filter and treat cistern
water to make it safe to drink?

Jim Wilkins

nick hull fired this volley in news:nhull-
:

The one part I lack is a floating ball, larger than 3ý and smaller than
5ý. I could use a ballasted 2-liter bottle, but a ball would be more
elegant and less likely to hang up. I have not yet found a toy ball of
the right size, all ideas appreciated.


Nick,

Find a pyrotechnics supply company (www.skylighter.com www.firefox-
fx.com), and order a 4" plastic aerial shell casing.

They are round, styrene, equipped with a "hanger hook", and can be glued
together (come in two halves) with model cement or PVC cement.

A 4" casing is 3.5" in diameter.

LLoyd

nick hull fired this volley in news:nhull-
:

Part 3 involves the 40 deg flange this thread addresses.

BTW... you never did say why you couldn't use plumbing fittings to get that
joint vertical.

LLoyd

nick hull fired this volley in news:nhull-
:

Rain water here is safe to drink, we just divert the first few gallons
that wash the bird crap off the roof. I don't filter or treat rain or
cistern or spring water in any way and have never had a problem in 30
years.

Yeah... a little cystoplasmosis never hurt anyone!

LLoyd

Jim Wilkins wrote:

New England usually has more water than we need, our water problems
are flooding and washed-out roads or removing minerals from well
water. How do those of you in drier areas filter and treat cistern
water to make it safe to drink?

Jim Wilkins

I grew up in central PA (out in the sticks) and we had nothing
but cistern water (carried it in with a bucket) from the time I
was 6 till I moved out at 20 and the parents were still there
for another 20 yrs. (till I built a house for them with running
water) and all we had was a charcoal filter on the spouting
where it entered the cistern. Dad cleaned the filter a few times
a year. Sveral times over the years we had to have a tank of
water brought out from town. I can only remember 2 or three.
The cistern was cleaned out (pumped out and washed down with
bleach) every couple years. That was an intresting job.
What do you mean SAFE? :-)
...lew...

In article ,
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

nick hull fired this volley in news:nhull-
:

The one part I lack is a floating ball, larger than 3ý and smaller than
5ý. I could use a ballasted 2-liter bottle, but a ball would be more
elegant and less likely to hang up. I have not yet found a toy ball of
the right size, all ideas appreciated.


Nick,

Find a pyrotechnics supply company (www.skylighter.com www.firefox-
fx.com), and order a 4" plastic aerial shell casing.

They are round, styrene, equipped with a "hanger hook", and can be glued
together (come in two halves) with model cement or PVC cement.

A 4" casing is 3.5" in diameter.

$45 for 20 is a bit much when I only need one ;(

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

In article ,
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

nick hull fired this volley in news:nhull-
:

Part 3 involves the 40 deg flange this thread addresses.

BTW... you never did say why you couldn't use plumbing fittings to get that
joint vertical.

Height is critical, I have too little to work with. A 45 deg elbow
would do EXCEPT it would raise the pipe over an inch and would mess up
the slopes in my piping ;(

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

In article
,
Jim Wilkins wrote:

How do those of you in drier areas filter and treat cistern
water to make it safe to drink?

Rain water here is safe to drink, we just divert the first few gallons
that wash the bird crap off the roof. I don't filter or treat rain or
cistern or spring water in any way and have never had a problem in 30
years.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:58:03 -0500, nick hull wrote:



The one part I lack is a floating ball, larger than 3² and smaller than
5².

One possibility:

http://www.gazingballoutlet.com/Stai...eel-Balls/30-1

Styrofoam balls are readily avaliable, but I think they'd need to be
coated with something for use as a floating plug.

In article ,
Don Foreman wrote:

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:58:03 -0500, nick hull wrote:



The one part I lack is a floating ball, larger than 3² and smaller than
5².

One possibility:

http://www.gazingballoutlet.com/Stai...eel-Balls/30-1

Styrofoam balls are readily avaliable, but I think they'd need to be
coated with something for use as a floating plug.

Best suggestion yet and it floats; now I have to calculate how high it
floats

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

In article ,
nick hull wrote:

In article ,
Don Foreman wrote:

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:58:03 -0500, nick hull wrote:



The one part I lack is a floating ball, larger than 3² and smaller than
5².

One possibility:

http://www.gazingballoutlet.com/Stai...eel-Balls/30-1

Styrofoam balls are readily avaliable, but I think they'd need to be
coated with something for use as a floating plug.

Best suggestion yet and it floats; now I have to calculate how high it
floats

I calculate the density at .87, meaning it barely floats. I'd like to
get a density .5 or lower, meaning it strongly floats.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Aug 18, 3:54*pm, nick hull wrote:
In article ,
*nick hull wrote:





In article ,
*Don Foreman wrote:

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:58:03 -0500, nick hull wrote:

The one part I lack is a floating ball, larger than 3² and smaller than
5².

One possibility:

http://www.gazingballoutlet.com/Stai...eel-Balls/30-1

Styrofoam balls are readily avaliable, but I think they'd need to be
coated with something for use as a floating plug.

Best suggestion yet and it floats; now I have to calculate how high it
floats

I calculate the density at .87, meaning it barely floats. *I'd like to
get a density .5 or lower, meaning it strongly floats.

Why does it have to be a sphere? Wouldn't a hemisphere or cone on a
cylindrical float work, perhaps a section of smaller pipe with rounded
end caps, or a plugged conical reducer? A longer float would have more
buoyancy to seal the valve opening.

Jim Wilkins

In article
,
Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Aug 18, 3:54*pm, nick hull wrote:
In article ,
*nick hull wrote:





In article ,
*Don Foreman wrote:

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:58:03 -0500, nick hull wrote:

The one part I lack is a floating ball, larger than 3² and smaller than
5².

One possibility:

http://www.gazingballoutlet.com/Stai...eel-Balls/30-1

Styrofoam balls are readily avaliable, but I think they'd need to be
coated with something for use as a floating plug.

Best suggestion yet and it floats; now I have to calculate how high it
floats

I calculate the density at .87, meaning it barely floats. *I'd like to
get a density .5 or lower, meaning it strongly floats.

Why does it have to be a sphere? Wouldn't a hemisphere or cone on a
cylindrical float work, perhaps a section of smaller pipe with rounded
end caps, or a plugged conical reducer? A longer float would have more
buoyancy to seal the valve opening.

A sphere rolls better and jams less. It would be simpler if it were
just a 3" pipe. but I am flanging it up to 6" to increase the volume and
I don't want an odd shaped float to hang up on the transition. Other
than that, I've been looking at a 2-liter soda bottle thta might work id
properly ballasted. I think a sphere is more foolproof if I can find
one cheap and easy.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **