Hi. I recently bought a funny old TIG welder on craigslist. It is a
small AC buzzbox connected to a Power Kraft arc starter (made by 21st
Century). I tried it out, and it kind of works, but it creates a lot
of interference.

I figured that it might be bad for TV watching or radio reception, but
it is much worse. If it is plugged into a GFI outlet, the GFI trips
after a few seconds of operation. If it is plugged into a non-GFI
outlet, it makes any fluorescent lights plugged into that outlet flash
and flicker. Also, it will still trip the GFI outlet, if there is a
power cord plugged into it (doesn't have to be on). Now I can
understand why they don't let you plug unknown loads into hospital
outlets. Too risky with the nuisance trips.

I tried installing a line filter between the line and the HV
transformer in the arc starter box, and it does not help. Does this
mean that the arc starter is radiating power from the leads? I also
tried grounding my welding table, but this does not seem to help
either. I guess it is possible to use the non-GFI outlet, but then
lighting is a problem.

Any way around the pesky GFI trips and light flashing problems? Would
it be better to put chokes on the HV side?

Problem is that the AC buzz-box does not have a shield between the
primary and secondary. The HF, not being 60hz, is not coupled across
the windings in a balanced manner. The result is two problems. Too
much HF on the line and unbalanced currents causing a GFI trip. The
only solution is to get a better welder.

I would begin with the assumption that the arc starter is
defective. It should not trip GFCI. Try measuring current on the
ground line when it is not plugged into GFCI.

i

wrote:
Hi. I recently bought a funny old TIG welder on craigslist. It is a
small AC buzzbox connected to a Power Kraft arc starter (made by 21st
Century). I tried it out, and it kind of works, but it creates a lot
of interference.

I figured that it might be bad for TV watching or radio reception, but
it is much worse. If it is plugged into a GFI outlet, the GFI trips
after a few seconds of operation. If it is plugged into a non-GFI
outlet, it makes any fluorescent lights plugged into that outlet flash
and flicker. Also, it will still trip the GFI outlet, if there is a
power cord plugged into it (doesn't have to be on). Now I can
understand why they don't let you plug unknown loads into hospital
outlets. Too risky with the nuisance trips.

I tried installing a line filter between the line and the HV
transformer in the arc starter box, and it does not help. Does this
mean that the arc starter is radiating power from the leads? I also
tried grounding my welding table, but this does not seem to help
either. I guess it is possible to use the non-GFI outlet, but then
lighting is a problem.

Any way around the pesky GFI trips and light flashing problems? Would
it be better to put chokes on the HV side?

I'd go along with Iggies comment about there being something wrong with
the starter. I had an old add-on HF unit fitted to an oil cooled stick
welder and never had any issues with it causing electrical interference
to lights or any TVs, computers etc on my circuit or my neighbours. One
of the first things I did when setting up the welder in the garage was
to check with my neighbours that it didn't effect their TV which was
about 8ft away in their living room, no effect noted ever, maybe 3
intervening block work walls helped.

In article ,
says...

Hi. I recently bought a funny old TIG welder on craigslist. It is a
small AC buzzbox connected to a Power Kraft arc starter (made by 21st
Century). I tried it out, and it kind of works, but it creates a lot
of interference.


My Craftsman high frequency unit works fine. It is on all the time, not just
for starting unless you switch it off. It has the best start of any tig welder
I have used, it will light across a 1/2" gap! If you lay the torch down on the
concrete floor there is a blue glow around the electrode. I did lots of welding
with it many years ago.

--
Dennis

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 06:21:44 -0600, Ignoramus17419
wrote:

I would begin with the assumption that the arc starter is
defective. It should not trip GFCI. Try measuring current on the
ground line when it is not plugged into GFCI.

i

Probably not defective. Those things generate a prodigious amount of
EMI and there really isn't any simple remedy. They can also raise
hell with computers and security lights.

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:03:51 -0600, (DT)
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Hi. I recently bought a funny old TIG welder on craigslist. It is a
small AC buzzbox connected to a Power Kraft arc starter (made by 21st
Century). I tried it out, and it kind of works, but it creates a lot
of interference.


My Craftsman high frequency unit works fine. It is on all the time, not just
for starting unless you switch it off. It has the best start of any tig welder
I have used, it will light across a 1/2" gap! If you lay the torch down on the
concrete floor there is a blue glow around the electrode. I did lots of welding
with it many years ago.

The Craftsman HF unit was made by Lincoln, not Century. Big
difference! Those were pretty good units.

wrote:
Hi. I recently bought a funny old TIG welder on craigslist. It is a
small AC buzzbox connected to a Power Kraft arc starter (made by 21st
Century). I tried it out, and it kind of works, but it creates a lot
of interference.

I figured that it might be bad for TV watching or radio reception, but
it is much worse. If it is plugged into a GFI outlet, the GFI trips
after a few seconds of operation. If it is plugged into a non-GFI
outlet, it makes any fluorescent lights plugged into that outlet flash
and flicker. Also, it will still trip the GFI outlet, if there is a
power cord plugged into it (doesn't have to be on). Now I can
understand why they don't let you plug unknown loads into hospital
outlets. Too risky with the nuisance trips.

I tried installing a line filter between the line and the HV
transformer in the arc starter box, and it does not help. Does this
mean that the arc starter is radiating power from the leads? I also
tried grounding my welding table, but this does not seem to help
either. I guess it is possible to use the non-GFI outlet, but then
lighting is a problem.

Any way around the pesky GFI trips and light flashing problems? Would
it be better to put chokes on the HV side?

No personal experience, but I've read
that the first step is to clean and
adjust the spark gap in the arc starter.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:03:51 -0600, (DT)
wrote:


In article ,
says...

Hi. I recently bought a funny old TIG welder on craigslist. It is a
small AC buzzbox connected to a Power Kraft arc starter (made by 21st
Century). I tried it out, and it kind of works, but it creates a lot
of interference.


My Craftsman high frequency unit works fine. It is on all the time, not just
for starting unless you switch it off. It has the best start of any tig welder
I have used, it will light across a 1/2" gap! If you lay the torch down on the
concrete floor there is a blue glow around the electrode. I did lots of welding
with it many years ago.


The Craftsman HF unit was made by Lincoln, not Century. Big
difference! Those were pretty good units.


Ah, that explains it! The HF on my Lincoln Square-Wave TIG 300 is so
powerful you can actually weld with it! When I first got the thing, I
was poking around with it and was able to get tiny puddles to form with
the electrode way too far away for the main arc current to develop.
After fiddling for a bit, I found out what happens when you get the
electrode closer and the real welding current comes on. Anyway, my
Lincoln's HF system is quite awesome, it can create a cloud of 2"+
sparks that look a heck of a lot like those plasma globe things.

Jon

Jon Elson wrote:


Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:03:51 -0600, (DT)
wrote:


In article
,
says...

Hi. I recently bought a funny old TIG welder on craigslist. It is a
small AC buzzbox connected to a Power Kraft arc starter (made by 21st
Century). I tried it out, and it kind of works, but it creates a lot
of interference.


My Craftsman high frequency unit works fine. It is on all the time,
not just for starting unless you switch it off. It has the best
start of any tig welder I have used, it will light across a 1/2"
gap! If you lay the torch down on the concrete floor there is a blue
glow around the electrode. I did lots of welding with it many years
ago.


The Craftsman HF unit was made by Lincoln, not Century. Big
difference! Those were pretty good units.

Ah, that explains it! The HF on my Lincoln Square-Wave TIG 300 is so
powerful you can actually weld with it! When I first got the thing, I
was poking around with it and was able to get tiny puddles to form
with the electrode way too far away for the main arc current to
develop. After fiddling for a bit, I found out what happens when you
get the electrode closer and the real welding current comes on.
Anyway, my Lincoln's HF system is quite awesome, it can create a cloud
of 2"+ sparks that look a heck of a lot like those plasma globe things.

Jon

My old Max-Arc would do that also, very impressive, especially when you
had it arcing the HF to the end of your finger. Made it tingle a bit but
never seemed to do any damage. I don't do that with the Hitachi any more
as that is a much more expensive unit but I still get a jolt
occasionally when sweaty in the summer month, these days I rest my arm
on a wood plank for insulation in those conditions. The old HF unit is
on loan to a mate so is still avaialble for trail if I require it.

wrote:
Hi. I recently bought a funny old TIG welder on craigslist. It is a
small AC buzzbox connected to a Power Kraft arc starter (made by 21st
Century). I tried it out, and it kind of works, but it creates a lot
of interference.

I figured that it might be bad for TV watching or radio reception, but
it is much worse. If it is plugged into a GFI outlet, the GFI trips
after a few seconds of operation. If it is plugged into a non-GFI
outlet, it makes any fluorescent lights plugged into that outlet flash
and flicker. Also, it will still trip the GFI outlet, if there is a
power cord plugged into it (doesn't have to be on). Now I can
understand why they don't let you plug unknown loads into hospital
outlets. Too risky with the nuisance trips.

I tried installing a line filter between the line and the HV
transformer in the arc starter box, and it does not help. Does this
mean that the arc starter is radiating power from the leads? I also
tried grounding my welding table, but this does not seem to help
either. I guess it is possible to use the non-GFI outlet, but then
lighting is a problem.

Any way around the pesky GFI trips and light flashing problems? Would
it be better to put chokes on the HV side?

A thought after my previous comment, I did modify my HF unit after
awhile to provide control to the transformer with a phase angle
controller. That disturbed the flourescent lights in the garage and made
them flicker. The controller acted on the transformer to provide a ramp
up and down, it was brutal but did work. Is your unit an add-on HF unit
or does it do more. I still didn't get any problems with my neighbours
though, or my computers. Subsequently I went to an inverter TIG unit.

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:54:35 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:



Ah, that explains it! The HF on my Lincoln Square-Wave TIG 300 is so
powerful you can actually weld with it! When I first got the thing, I
was poking around with it and was able to get tiny puddles to form with
the electrode way too far away for the main arc current to develop.
After fiddling for a bit, I found out what happens when you get the
electrode closer and the real welding current comes on. Anyway, my
Lincoln's HF system is quite awesome, it can create a cloud of 2"+
sparks that look a heck of a lot like those plasma globe things.

You might want to check the setting of the spark gap - that sounds
excessive to me. When I got my Airco square wave machine (rebadged
ESAB) the HF intensity was similar to what you're describing; I
discovered it was enough to interfere with the arc when welding
aluminum. Until I adjusted the spark gap per the manual, I was getting
better results on aluminum with the HF set to start-only.

The machine was practically new, but inop when I bought it for about
$300 at auction. The control board had a shorted small signal diode,
which I suspect may have been caused by the HF.

I've owned a Lincoln TIG as well as a couple Millers and the ESAB, and
none generated that much HF when set up properly.

--
Ned Simmons

On Nov 27, 3:51 pm, David Billington
wrote:
A thought after my previous comment, I did modify my HF unit after
awhile to provide control to the transformer with a phase angle
controller. That disturbed the flourescent lights in the garage and made
them flicker. The controller acted on the transformer to provide a ramp
up and down, it was brutal but did work. Is your unit an add-on HF unit
or does it do more.
....

Hi David. This is an add-on unit, and all it does is HF. It has a
very standard design. There is an iron cored transformer which
generates high voltage AC. It is shunted with a double spark gap,
then feeds into an air cored coil. One funny thing is that there is
no HV capacitor. There is a low voltage capacitor connected to a tap
on the air cored coil. Perhaps the flat wound air cored coil has
enough self capacitance to oscillate.

There is no variable control for the HF. It is either on or off.
Those little line filters are pretty good at filtering noise at high
frequencies coming back to the line, but a thyristor phase control
injects harmonics at low multiples of the mains frequency, which can
require more aggressive filtering.

On Nov 27, 10:12 am, Jim Stewart wrote:
No personal experience, but I've read
that the first step is to clean and
adjust the spark gap in the arc starter.



Hi Jim. The spark gap looks pretty clean. I will try swabbing it
with some alcohol to reduce any tracking contamination and reset it to
the factory specs. Thanks!

On Nov 27, 9:13 am, Don Foreman wrote:
The Craftsman HF unit was made by Lincoln, not Century. Big
difference! Those were pretty good units.


No wonder why there was such a price difference. The Lincolns sell
for a pretty high price on Ebay. They also have a more feature rich
front panel. I am determined to make this one work, though.

On Nov 27, 4:21 am, Ignoramus17419 ignoramus17...@NOSPAM.
17419.invalid wrote:
I would begin with the assumption that the arc starter is
defective. It should not trip GFCI. Try measuring current on the
ground line when it is not plugged into GFCI.

i

Hi Ignoramus. Thanks for your suggestion. I kind of think that it is
the EMI, but I think that I have a way to test it. First, I will plug
the arc starter into the GFI outlet with the line filter in. If it
doesn't trip, it may be a noise issue. Second, I will unplug all
cords from the GFI outlet (antennas) and see if it still trips with
the arc starter plugged into the non-GFI outlet. (The GFI outlet
still trips, even if the arc starter is plugged into another outlet,
but I did not unplug all lines.)

wrote:

There is no variable control for the HF. It is either on or off.
Those little line filters are pretty good at filtering noise at high
frequencies coming back to the line, but a thyristor phase control
injects harmonics at low multiples of the mains frequency, which can
require more aggressive filtering.

Switching heavy inductive currents with phase
control is the devil's own work in line-conducted
interference.

Years ago, I installed a very sensitive electron
beam lithography machine at a semiconductor
house in Silicon Valley. We had horrible, non-
reproducible problems with it until we scoped
the 3-phase coming in. The epitaxal reactor
on the other side of the building was making
the input power look like something out of Jimi
Hendrix's guitar. Both machines were essential
so the e-beam machine was only used for critical
jobs when the reactor was off.

On Nov 27, 4:21 am, Ignoramus17419 ignoramus17...@NOSPAM.
17419.invalid wrote:
I would begin with the assumption that the arc starter is
defective. It should not trip GFCI. Try measuring current on the
ground line when it is not plugged into GFCI.

Hi Ignoramus. I found out a solution, but perhaps not the cause of
the problem.

I was able to trip the GFI, even though the arc starter was plugged
into a non-GFI output. That seems to suggest that the unit was not
defective. Then, I unplugged all loads to the GFI outlet. No more
tripping! The loads included a microwave oven and a trouble light.
No matter. I don't use these while welding, but the trouble light can
help start out, since I do not have an auto-darkening helmet.

Then, I tried disconnecting the welding cables from the arc starter.
No nuisance trips, and the fluorescent lights stopped flickering when
the HF was turned on, but I could not weld.

The compromise was to plug everything in a non-GFI outlet, and unplug
everything from the GFI outlet. The lights would still flash, but
this was bearable, especially after the arc started.

TIG welding is a blast, especially after developing the skill to stick
weld 1/16" sheet metal. I have a feeling that that outdated skill
will soon atrophy . It will also work for filling blown through
holes easily, with no slag inclusions. Just fantastic!

On Nov 27, 9:11 am, Don Foreman wrote:
Probably not defective. Those things generate a prodigious amount of
EMI and there really isn't any simple remedy. They can also raise
hell with computers and security lights.

Hi Don. Thanks for the reply. I am afraid that you are correct. I
disconnected the welding leads, and the problem went away.
Apparently, the HF is coming out of the leads and getting into the
plug cords of various appliances. Now I understand why the manual
recommends running ALL power leads in grounded conduit. What a huge
hassle. At least I'm welding now. Gotta to keep from dipping that
tungsten. Good thing that there are a few packs in the kit.

On Nov 27, 12:11 pm, Don Foreman
wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 06:21:44 -0600, Ignoramus17419

wrote:
I would begin with the assumption that the arc starter is
defective. It should not trip GFCI. Try measuring current on the
ground line when it is not plugged into GFCI.

i

Probably not defective. Those things generate a prodigious amount of
EMI and there really isn't any simple remedy. They can also raise
hell with computers and security lights.

my Synchrowave 200 knocks out sections of the local area network when
in use.

I dint have enough time to see if it was the DSL or the cat5 drops
that were going plonk since i last checked and i plan to move it far
away to fix that