Hello all,

The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise
factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded
spindle vs. D1-4?

My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively
self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they
would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then
indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe
experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am
kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an
arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually,
the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea.

A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be
a nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow
it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just
how hard is it to remove the chuck?? Anything else I should be asking?

Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I
could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done???

Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine
is inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next
few decades or so

Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven
lathe: would you buy it again?

Thanks,

Bill

Bill Schwab wrote:

Hello all,

The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise
factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded
spindle vs. D1-4?

My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively
self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they
would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then
indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe
experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am
kidding myself, please speak up.

Unless you are going to cut LH threads your assumptions seem valid.

Screws are one more variance contributing to runout in any chuck. Does it
have a taper for collets for small 1 1/16" and less turning.

I'd go for a D or L series spindle nose but then that is me.

You have valid thoughts, if the price difference makes sense to you than do
what makes you happy. We make tradeoffs all the time and it sounds like you
have thought this through.

Besides, this might not be your only lathe in this life

Wes

Wes,

The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise
factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded
spindle vs. D1-4?

My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively
self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they
would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then
indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe
experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am
kidding myself, please speak up.

Unless you are going to cut LH threads your assumptions seem valid.

Good point.


Screws are one more variance contributing to runout in any chuck. Does it
have a taper for collets for small 1 1/16" and less turning.

There is a 5MT taper with an adapter to reduce to 3MT. That brings up a
question: is there any reason I could not later buy a chuck (collet or
otherwise) that fits the taper? Any limitations?


I'd go for a D or L series spindle nose but then that is me.

I appreciate the candor.


You have valid thoughts, if the price difference makes sense to you than do
what makes you happy. We make tradeoffs all the time and it sounds like you
have thought this through.

Within reason, I would like to think that's the case. Again, not
knowing very much about lathes makes it difficult to guess what I will
eventually find useful.


Besides, this might not be your only lathe in this life

True enough. I thought about low-balling it with just that idea in
mind, but I fear I would outgrow a 7x20 in short order.

Thanks!

Bill

Bill Schwab wrote:


There is a 5MT taper with an adapter to reduce to 3MT. That brings up a
question: is there any reason I could not later buy a chuck (collet or
otherwise) that fits the taper? Any limitations?

You can probably get or adapt a collet chuck to fit a 5 Morse
taper. You probably can't find a commercial adaptor for
jaw-type chucks, and for good reason. You'd need some beefy
drawtube to hold it on, if the chuck ever spun in the taper it
could ruin the lathe by galling the taper, and God help you if a
spinning 6" chuck ever fell out of the taper! If you don't mind
surplus, there is D1-x stuff on eBay pretty regularly. My
Sheldon 15" lathe has a D1-6, and I got a backplate and a 10"
4-jaw chuck for it by just being patient and letting the crazy
bidding pass me by. You have to be a little careful, some eBay
sellers may mis-identify the size of the D1 spindle of the item
they are selling. So, you may want to have them measure it.

Jon

Bill Schwab wrote:

Screws are one more variance contributing to runout in any chuck. Does it
have a taper for collets for small 1 1/16" and less turning.

There is a 5MT taper with an adapter to reduce to 3MT. That brings up a
question: is there any reason I could not later buy a chuck (collet or
otherwise) that fits the taper? Any limitations?

What is the bore of headstock? 1 3/8" is minimum for using a 5MT to 5C
collet adaptor and closing from the back side of headstock.


I'd go for a D or L series spindle nose but then that is me.

I appreciate the candor.

I've used screw, D, and L. L is accurate but a bit of a pita at times
compared to the D. A nice conforming block of wood that accurately positions
the chuck in relation to spindle makes all three types much nicer to deal
with with chucks over 6".


You have valid thoughts, if the price difference makes sense to you than do
what makes you happy. We make tradeoffs all the time and it sounds like you
have thought this through.

Within reason, I would like to think that's the case. Again, not
knowing very much about lathes makes it difficult to guess what I will
eventually find useful.

Well you are taking the right approach by asking. Prior Preparation
Prevents **** Poor Performance.


Besides, this might not be your only lathe in this life

True enough. I thought about low-balling it with just that idea in
mind, but I fear I would outgrow a 7x20 in short order.

Could you give us an idea of your hobbies and the things you plan to make?
Might help us in giving advice worth what you paid for it.


Wes

Wes,

Besides, this might not be your only lathe in this life
True enough. I thought about low-balling it with just that idea in
mind, but I fear I would outgrow a 7x20 in short order.

Could you give us an idea of your hobbies and the things you plan to make?
Might help us in giving advice worth what you paid for it.

Most uses would be fairly simple turning of shafts to make pins for
assembling the typical experimental fixtures I build, and no doubt
various (for my mill) spindle mounted spuds for rough alignment, and/or
visually confirming alignment. Just what I need, MORE tools On the
latter, say what you will, I'd rather use what a DRO would cost to buy
other things.

The $900 Enco lathe would no doubt do all of that. In fact, it would
probably do pretty much everything I could think of right now. The
bigger machines would hopefully be able to do the things I can't yet
envision, and would enable me to practice with power feeds that are not
present on the cheaper machine.

With that said, I am going to seriously reconsider the cheaper machine,
if only to be fair to my wallet.

Machining is certainly a hobby for me, but it is also career
development. So far the benefits are subtle, and there is not too much
that I can say "that was possible because...", but things are headed in
that direction.

Does that help?

Bill

Bill Schwab wrote:

The $900 Enco lathe would no doubt do all of that. In fact, it would
probably do pretty much everything I could think of right now. The
bigger machines would hopefully be able to do the things I can't yet
envision, and would enable me to practice with power feeds that are not
present on the cheaper machine.

With that said, I am going to seriously reconsider the cheaper machine,
if only to be fair to my wallet.

Machining is certainly a hobby for me, but it is also career
development. So far the benefits are subtle, and there is not too much
that I can say "that was possible because...", but things are headed in
that direction.

Does that help?

Well you know what your needs and budget are at this moment and if it turns
out that you want a more capable machine you could deal it off to help
finance another one.

25 or so years ago I used an old enco to learn on out in the maintenance
crib. It had a screw chuck, not much power and had rigidity issues but if I
worked at it, it would get the job done albet slowly.

I've seen some damned impressive work turned out on mini-lathes, mill
drills, and mini-mills. If you find that this is not enough machine for you
as you progress, you can upgrade, after all you are not married to it.

No one can decide for you. Btw, what kind of mill do you have?

Wes

Bill Schwab wrote:

With that said, I am going to seriously reconsider the cheaper machine,
if only to be fair to my wallet.

Bill, there's a real good alternative that may not have been mentioned:

The 8x14 as sold by HF, Lathemaster and others. It is reportedly a
better, stouter machine than either the 7X or the 9X variants.
HF sells it for under $500.

But if you are good with the $900 price range I'd go ahead and get the
10x22 that grizzly sells for a little more. It's a darned nice Seig
lathe, although it does not have a QC threading gearbox.

I have a few comments about the 9x20 lathe, Bill. I'm jumping into this
thread here because I don't see your original message.

There are several shortcomings in the 9x20 product. The base clamp for the
top/compound slide is weak, and is a serious design flaw that results in a
lot of chatter and frustration.
The good news is that it can be improved to practically eliminate any
chatter. There are various 9x20 websites (including my own at the link
below) and a Yahoo group for all sorts of tips on improving the 9x20 model.

Many users don't like using shims under the cutting tools to get the tool
cutting edge on the centerline of the workpiece, using the supplied
turret-style toolpost. Some have converted to AXA/series 100 quick change
toolposts, but I feel this size is too large for the 9x20.
I have utilized some gizmos (a M.E. friend told me about) that haved a
sloped trough in them, that allow the centerline adjustment to be done
easily.
There are several vendors/distributors that offer a couple of QCTPs which
are sized smaller than the AXA/series 100 posts, although some of them are
aluminum.

The Morse #3 taper collets are available from numerous sources, and I got a
complete set from Phase II for about $115 several years ago. The Morse
collets do not allow the workpiece to pass through the collet (extending
into the headstock), so the grip on a workpiece has to be at the end of the
stock (for about 2").
The Morse collets will use a threaded rod for a drawbar, unlike a hollow
drawbar for 5C collets which allow the stock to extend into or through the
headstock, to the left.
The only real drawback to Morse taper collets drawn in with a drawbar is
that they require a somewhat firm rap to release them, and that shock load
is opposed by the spindle bearing. Lathe operators have been doing this for
a couple of generations now, and no immediate damage is caused when the
collets are released cautiously.

As far as stripping gears to remove a stuck chuck on the threaded spindle,
the first gear from the spindle gear is nylon, considered to be a fuse/weak
point by design to prevent lots of damage in the event that a crash happens.
A simple retainer is included in the accessories that's used to prevent the
chuck from unscrewing, although it may not actually be a fail-safe device.

Many 9x20 owners have complaints that the machine isn't ready to run upon
delivery, and most of 'em are valid complaints. The buyer should be prepared
to disassemble much of the machine after delivery to perform several tasks
including replacing most of the ****ty fasteners with better quality ones,
deburring and removing sharp corners that will easily cause cuts in the
hands of the user, a thorough check of all electrical connections, improving
alignment of numerous parts, and cleaning and final adjustments to allow the
machine to operate as one might expect a new machine to.

Another point I make, not to gloat or cause you discomfort, is that when I
bought my 9x20 from Enco, it was $600 delivered. Since I was already
familiar with the machine's flaws, I was prepared for the condition of the
machine as it was delivered.
Now the machine is $850 plus delivery (without the lathe stand), and I think
that $900 would steer me away from it, although I still think the 9x20 lathe
performs fairly well after the improvements.. just not $900 worth, plus the
work required to make it perform properly.

Several regular participants here on RCM have the 9x20 models, and if you
haven't read about the problems of the machine, I would recommend that you
look up some comments in the acchived messages, and elsewhere on the
interweb.

It seems that the 9x20 lathe would meet your requirements for the uses you
mentioned, if you're agreeable to the price and the additional improvements
the machine requires.
Additionally, the 9x20 will cut more thread pitches than the limited ones
they publish in their catalogs. Charts can be obtained from the Yahoo 9x20
group, or from one of us owners, or in a previous years' retired dropbox
files.

As for Enco's comments about how the feed dials are marked on other models,
the dials are not accurate when the screws are metric thread and the dials
are marked by thousandths of an inch. Each full turn of the dial increases
the inaccuracy.
These machine distributors should know better than to do this sort of crap,
but they don't care.

WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
...
Wes,

The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise
factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded
spindle vs. D1-4?

My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively
self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they
would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then
indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe
experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am
kidding myself, please speak up.

Unless you are going to cut LH threads your assumptions seem valid.

Good point.


Screws are one more variance contributing to runout in any chuck. Does
it
have a taper for collets for small 1 1/16" and less turning.

There is a 5MT taper with an adapter to reduce to 3MT. That brings up a
question: is there any reason I could not later buy a chuck (collet or
otherwise) that fits the taper? Any limitations?


I'd go for a D or L series spindle nose but then that is me.

I appreciate the candor.


You have valid thoughts, if the price difference makes sense to you than
do
what makes you happy. We make tradeoffs all the time and it sounds like
you
have thought this through.

Within reason, I would like to think that's the case. Again, not knowing
very much about lathes makes it difficult to guess what I will eventually
find useful.


Besides, this might not be your only lathe in this life

True enough. I thought about low-balling it with just that idea in mind,
but I fear I would outgrow a 7x20 in short order.

Thanks!

Bill

Wild_Bill wrote:
I have a few comments about the 9x20 lathe, Bill. I'm jumping into this
thread here because I don't see your original message.

Thanks for taking the time.


There are several shortcomings in the 9x20 product. The base clamp for
the top/compound slide is weak, and is a serious design flaw that
results in a lot of chatter and frustration.
The good news is that it can be improved to practically eliminate any
chatter. There are various 9x20 websites (including my own at the link
below) and a Yahoo group for all sorts of tips on improving the 9x20 model.

Good point. I have seen such sites, and now that you mention it, they
were one of the reasons I began looking at the 8x36 machines.


Many users don't like using shims under the cutting tools to get the
tool cutting edge on the centerline of the workpiece, using the supplied
turret-style toolpost. Some have converted to AXA/series 100 quick
change toolposts, but I feel this size is too large for the 9x20.
I have utilized some gizmos (a M.E. friend told me about) that haved a
sloped trough in them, that allow the centerline adjustment to be done
easily.
There are several vendors/distributors that offer a couple of QCTPs
which are sized smaller than the AXA/series 100 posts, although some of
them are aluminum.

I am aware of the problem. The plan is probably going to be to live
with it for a while, and then either build or buy a better post when it
starts to bother me, and wallet isn't stinging. There is a
recommendation earlier in this or the other thread on my lathe search.
I think the Phase II was the poster's second choice, but if their RT is
any example, it would probably be more than adequate.


The Morse #3 taper collets are available from numerous sources, and I
got a complete set from Phase II for about $115 several years ago. The
Morse collets do not allow the workpiece to pass through the collet
(extending into the headstock), so the grip on a workpiece has to be at
the end of the stock (for about 2").
The Morse collets will use a threaded rod for a drawbar, unlike a hollow
drawbar for 5C collets which allow the stock to extend into or through
the headstock, to the left.

I think I read that the 8x36 machine will accept 5C collets, but need to
check that. Still, I am not convinced I will go the extra money over it.


The only real drawback to Morse taper collets drawn in with a drawbar is
that they require a somewhat firm rap to release them, and that shock
load is opposed by the spindle bearing. Lathe operators have been doing
this for a couple of generations now, and no immediate damage is caused
when the collets are released cautiously.

Understood.


Another point I make, not to gloat or cause you discomfort, is that when
I bought my 9x20 from Enco, it was $600 delivered. Since I was already
familiar with the machine's flaws, I was prepared for the condition of
the machine as it was delivered.
Now the machine is $850 plus delivery (without the lathe stand), and I
think that $900 would steer me away from it, although I still think the
9x20 lathe performs fairly well after the improvements.. just not $900
worth, plus the work required to make it perform properly.

OUCH.



As for Enco's comments about how the feed dials are marked on other
models, the dials are not accurate when the screws are metric thread and
the dials are marked by thousandths of an inch. Each full turn of the
dial increases the inaccuracy.
These machine distributors should know better than to do this sort of
crap, but they don't care.

Are you saying that either of the 8x36 lathes have metric screws? My
reading and questioning suggests that they are imperial, but if you have
specific information disputing that, it is worth another round of questions.

Thanks,

Bill

Bill, could you clear up a bit of confusion on my part? You have previously
mentioned a more expensive lathe, and referred to it as a 8x36, and I
assumed it was a typographic error. The 8x36" dimensions are compatible with
a mill table travel.

Have you been referring to the 12x36" lathe model? It has a #5 Morse taper
in the spindle BTW, for the Enco model that's priced about $1,949 (Gap Bed
Bench Lathe With Back Gear).
I would expect a new set of MT #5 collets to be expensive.

In looking at the recent flyer ad, I don't see that the specs/features for
the 12x36 include a power cross feed. This model may have that feature, and
some owners here on RCM should be able to provide more info about that
model.
I recall numerous 12x36 owners praising these machines.

I don't know that the other models you may be considering actually use
metric feedscrews with inch dials, but it would be worth your time to ask an
informed person from the company that sells the machine.
The 9x20 model has inch screws and dials if they're the same as when I
bought mine.

Something I forgot to mention about the set of Phase II 3 MT collets that I
bought, was that the approximately $115 price was for the inch-sized round
set (not any metrics or square, hex etc).
The Phase II rotary tables and toolposts are good value for the money. I
also have one of their RTs, and was completely impressed at how smoothly it
operates, and the zero backlash in an entire revolution (after a little
scraping).
Enco has had the series 100 QCTP sets (include 5 tool holders) on sale
almost continuously for over a year, priced at $90 for the piston style, and
$170 for the wedge model.
I made the mistake of buying the HF QCTP earlier, and it was a total POS.

WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
...


Thanks for taking the time.



I think I read that the 8x36 machine will accept 5C collets, but need to
check that. Still, I am not convinced I will go the extra money over it.



Are you saying that either of the 8x36 lathes have metric screws? My
reading and questioning suggests that they are imperial, but if you have
specific information disputing that, it is worth another round of
questions.

Thanks,

Bill

Wes wrote:

Unless you are going to cut LH threads your assumptions seem valid.

I mispoke myself there. LH or RH has nothing to do with it but it does
determine which direction you will have to thread from to avoid spinning the
chuck loose.

Wes

As a hobbyist who does some work for hire, I have used several lathes
in my shop, at a friend's shop and in a couple of different vo-tech
shops, each of which had 4 or 5 different lathes.
I've used both belt drive and gear head lathes and both threaded
headstocks those with the D series mounts.
I don't think the noise of a gear head lathe is all that big a deal.
And it sure is nice to be able to throw a couple of levers rather than
dinking around with dirty (sooner or later) belts. Belts wear out.
I would prefer the D1-4 spindle over the threaded spindle, especially
since you are just starting out and don't have a bunch of threaded
adapters to get rid of. Also, I like the idea of changing chucks
without having the bang on the gears to get the chuck loose.
Use a wooden board to lay on the ways under the chuck. Carefully
set the chuck onto the board and then lift it carefuly into place. My
"board" has slats nailed to the front and back edges so it can't slide
off the ways. I keep it handy at all times so I am never tempted to
make a spindle-tooling change without it.
Get the biggest spindle hole you can afford!!!

Pete Stanaitis
--------------------

Bill Schwab wrote:

Hello all,

The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise
factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded
spindle vs. D1-4?

My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively
self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they
would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then
indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe
experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am
kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an
arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually,
the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea.

A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be
a nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow
it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just
how hard is it to remove the chuck?? Anything else I should be asking?

Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I
could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done???

Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine
is inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next
few decades or so

Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven
lathe: would you buy it again?

Thanks,

Bill

Bill Schwab wrote:
Hello all,

The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise
factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded
spindle vs. D1-4?

Well, anything that needs a D1-anything mount will cost more than
threaded. You can make your own threaded backplates, faceplates, etc.
right on the lathe. In theory, you could make a D1 mount, too, but it
is a lot more critical. Whatever mounts to the spindle by camlock needs
to have botht the taper and flat mate up simultaneously. That requires
some precision fixtures to get it to fit both at the same time.

On the other hand, there is a lot of D1 camlock hardware out there, so
you can buy expensive stuff like collet chucks surplus if you can wait
and watch for a while. The advantage, of course, is a D1-anything mount
is a HELL of a lot more solid connection that a small thread. Also,
generally, the spindle through hole on a camlock spindle will be a lot
bigger than on a threaded spindle for the same size lathe.

A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be
a nightmare?
Certainly not. The only nightmare is the jammed chuck, which should be
a rare event under normal use. There is either a way to lock the
spindle (engage backgear with direct drive still engaged) or a wrench to
put on the spindle to hold it. Changing a threaded chuck is almost too
easy.

Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow
it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen?
Yes. You have to be very careful when running the lathe in reverse.
The only times I did this was to back up when threading a metric thread,
or when using a toolpost grinder. On some lathes you have to release
belt tension, start the motor, then ease the belt in, or the start will
unwind the chuck.
If not, just
how hard is it to remove the chuck??
Usually, you put the chuck key in the hole and give it a small pull, and
it is loose.

Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I
could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done???

Yes, for work that mounts once, cut it and it's done, that's right.

Jon

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:16:12 -0500, Bill Schwab
wrote:

Hello all,

The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise
factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded
spindle vs. D1-4?

My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively
self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they
would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then
indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe
experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am
kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an
arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually,
the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea.

A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be
a nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow
it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just
how hard is it to remove the chuck?? Anything else I should be asking?

Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I
could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done???

Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine
is inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next
few decades or so

Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven
lathe: would you buy it again?

Thanks,

Bill

Chucks don't get stuck on a D1-4 spindle. They definitely do get
stuck on threaded spindles, and they can be a bear to deal with when
(not if) they do.

Don,

Chucks don't get stuck on a D1-4 spindle. They definitely do get
stuck on threaded spindles, and they can be a bear to deal with when
(not if) they do.

You seem to hold the majority opinion. Having just done battle (and
wong) with a Ford fan clutch, the point is very well taken. However,
is there a reliable and appropriate place to grab the spindle? If it is
just a matter of making a good connection and adding some leverage, then
I should be able to live with it. Slight inconvenience is one thing;
having to damage the machine to do a tool change is another.

As much as I like Enco, the real problem might be their offerings. I
will look again for a comparable machine with a cam lock spindle.

Thanks!

Bill

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
...
Don,

Chucks don't get stuck on a D1-4 spindle. They definitely do get
stuck on threaded spindles, and they can be a bear to deal with when
(not if) they do.

You seem to hold the majority opinion. Having just done battle (and
wong) with a Ford fan clutch, the point is very well taken. However, is
there a reliable and appropriate place to grab the spindle? If it is just
a matter of making a good connection and adding some leverage, then I
should be able to live with it. Slight inconvenience is one thing; having
to damage the machine to do a tool change is another.

As much as I like Enco, the real problem might be their offerings. I will
look again for a comparable machine with a cam lock spindle.

Thanks!

Bill

FWIW, I remove stubborn chucks on my South Bend (threaded spindle) with a
strap wrench on the chuck body and a couple of blocks of wood stuffed around
the bull gear, which engage the teeth. Not one tooth, but several teeth. I
don't lock the bull gear to remove chucks.

I don't think I've had to use that method for ten years, though. If you keep
the spindle nose clean it usually doesn't grab that hard. I don't like to
put any pressure on the jaws but I'll put a pine stick in there most of the
time and just give it a mild jerk, and it comes loose. I had a homemade tool
that engaged the square socket in one of the jaw screws to do this, but
after a couple of years I found it wasn't necessary.

--
Ed Huntress

On Nov 15, 9:17 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
FWIW, I remove stubborn chucks on my South Bend (threaded spindle) with a
strap wrench on the chuck body and a couple of blocks of wood stuffed around
the bull gear, which engage the teeth. ...
I don't think I've had to use that method for ten years, though. If you keep
the spindle nose clean it usually doesn't grab that hard. ...
Ed Huntress

That's pretty much my experience, too. The chuck is very easy to
unscrew unless I've been making interrupted cuts like rounding a large
square block and even then it's not too bad as long as the belt wasn't
tight. The only down side is that I can't take heavy smoking-blue-chip
cuts with carbide unless it's 1" or less, in a collet. So I use the
bandsaw to rough out large disks.

Jim Wilkins

Ed, Jim,

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 15, 9:17 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
FWIW, I remove stubborn chucks on my South Bend (threaded spindle) with a
strap wrench on the chuck body and a couple of blocks of wood stuffed around
the bull gear, which engage the teeth. ...
I don't think I've had to use that method for ten years, though. If you keep
the spindle nose clean it usually doesn't grab that hard. ...
Ed Huntress

That's pretty much my experience, too. The chuck is very easy to
unscrew unless I've been making interrupted cuts like rounding a large
square block and even then it's not too bad as long as the belt wasn't
tight. The only down side is that I can't take heavy smoking-blue-chip
cuts with carbide unless it's 1" or less, in a collet. So I use the
bandsaw to rough out large disks.

Suppose you did overdo it, how do you remove the chuck then? The
closest I get to burning chips is "deep" cuts with a flycutter on my
mill. In that case, I cut only with the table moving left to right so
the "angry" chips hit the wall instead of me - learned that one the hard
way =:0 In most other circumstances, I can't usually keep an eye on
everything all at once fast enough to take deep cuts w/o making scrap.
There are exceptions, but I am typically more worried about ruining a
part with a lot of work in it than I am about cutting faster.

Dumb question: why is the collet better? Is it taper mounted? I can
see why that's better than threads for concentricity, but what about
safety? I asked about taper mounted chucks, and the question of it
flying out of the spindle was raised. My idealistic side wants to know
why lathes appear not to have drawbars; you will probably say that it is
so the stock can pass through the spindle???

Bill

Bill Schwab wrote:
Don,

Chucks don't get stuck on a D1-4 spindle. They definitely do get
stuck on threaded spindles, and they can be a bear to deal with when
(not if) they do.


You seem to hold the majority opinion. Having just done battle (and
wong) with a Ford fan clutch, the point is very well taken. However,
is there a reliable and appropriate place to grab the spindle? If it is
just a matter of making a good connection and adding some leverage, then
I should be able to live with it. Slight inconvenience is one thing;
having to damage the machine to do a tool change is another.

As much as I like Enco, the real problem might be their offerings. I
will look again for a comparable machine with a cam lock spindle.
Having a lot of experience with Atlas/Craftsman lathes, and
helping people with stuck chucks on these as the moderator of
the Atlas/Craftsman group on Yahoo, first, let me point out that
this is just not that big a problem. I did manage to get my
chuck stuck once, in about 20 years of use. I usually just
engaged the backgear without pulling the direct drive pin, and
uncrewed the chuck with the chuck wrench. If that didn't work,
I'd give the wrench a few taps with a bar or piece of handy
wood. If that didn't get it loose, I then rigged a carrying
strap I have around the step pulley and made an improvised strap
wrench to hold the spindle. This has worked for just about
every group member who had the stuck chuck problem.

Be wary of all the low-cost Chinese import machines. Some
people have been happy with theirs, but I've seen some real
horrors. A guy near me got one of these with no known brand,
and it wouldn't even power on! It had a motor start handle on
the carriage, and the linkage was out of adjustment. It had the
usual gearbox full of metal chips and abrasive dust, and the
bench had the adjustable feet so close together I was afraid the
thing would fall over if you leaned on it. Even with the feet
run down to the floor, you could set the lathe rocking with one
finger!

Jon

Jon Elson wrote:
Bill Schwab wrote:
Don,

Chucks don't get stuck on a D1-4 spindle. They definitely do get
stuck on threaded spindles, and they can be a bear to deal with when
(not if) they do.


You seem to hold the majority opinion. Having just done battle (and
wong) with a Ford fan clutch, the point is very well taken.
However, is there a reliable and appropriate place to grab the
spindle? If it is just a matter of making a good connection and
adding some leverage, then I should be able to live with it. Slight
inconvenience is one thing; having to damage the machine to do a tool
change is another.

As much as I like Enco, the real problem might be their offerings. I
will look again for a comparable machine with a cam lock spindle.
Having a lot of experience with Atlas/Craftsman lathes, and helping
people with stuck chucks on these as the moderator of the
Atlas/Craftsman group on Yahoo, first, let me point out that this is
just not that big a problem. I did manage to get my chuck stuck once,
in about 20 years of use. I usually just engaged the backgear without
pulling the direct drive pin, and uncrewed the chuck with the chuck
wrench. If that didn't work, I'd give the wrench a few taps with a bar
or piece of handy wood. If that didn't get it loose, I then rigged a
carrying strap I have around the step pulley and made an improvised
strap wrench to hold the spindle. This has worked for just about every
group member who had the stuck chuck problem.

Be wary of all the low-cost Chinese import machines. Some people have
been happy with theirs, but I've seen some real horrors. A guy near me
got one of these with no known brand, and it wouldn't even power on! It
had a motor start handle on the carriage, and the linkage was out of
adjustment. It had the usual gearbox full of metal chips and abrasive
dust, and the bench had the adjustable feet so close together I was
afraid the thing would fall over if you leaned on it. Even with the
feet run down to the floor, you could set the lathe rocking with one
finger!

My older Enco 1024 has those feet close together (about 1 foot) but it
certainly seems stable. I do intend to add some square tubing
outriggers though, and put it on casters.

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise
factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded
spindle vs. D1-4?

My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively
self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they
would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then
indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe
experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am
kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an
arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually,
the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea.

A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be a
nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow it?
Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just how
hard is it to remove the chuck?? Anything else I should be asking?

Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I
could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done???

Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine is
inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next few
decades or so

Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven lathe:
would you buy it again?

Thanks,

Bill


A fast response, not having read any other comments. Pardon me if I'm
simply repeating things others may say.

I'd avoid a threaded spindle like the plague if it was my choice. There
is *nothing* to recommend one. They serve poorly as compared to almost
every other spindle system. The only thing they have going for them is
that they are (were) widely used, particularly for older equipment, so you
may be able to find accessories on the used market easier than those for
other systems.

The D system, in my opinion, is the finest spindle system on the market.
Considering the Monarch EE used it (D1-3), and all commercially rated engine
lathes I've ever run do as well, aside from the LeBlond (L type spindle) ,
there's more than enough clear evidence that suggests it's the spindle of
choice.

As far as I'm concerned, the threaded spindle system never should have
been, but I suppose they had to start somewhere.

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
...

Hello all,

The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise
factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded
spindle vs. D1-4?

My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively
self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they
would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then
indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe
experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am
kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an
arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually,
the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea.

A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be a
nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow it?
Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just how
hard is it to remove the chuck?? Anything else I should be asking?

Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I
could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done???

Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine is
inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next few
decades or so

Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven lathe:
would you buy it again?

Thanks,

Bill



A fast response, not having read any other comments. Pardon me if I'm
simply repeating things others may say.

I'd avoid a threaded spindle like the plague if it was my choice. There
is *nothing* to recommend one. They serve poorly as compared to almost
every other spindle system. The only thing they have going for them is
that they are (were) widely used, particularly for older equipment, so you
may be able to find accessories on the used market easier than those for
other systems.

The D system, in my opinion, is the finest spindle system on the market.
Considering the Monarch EE used it (D1-3), and all commercially rated engine
lathes I've ever run do as well, aside from the LeBlond (L type spindle) ,
there's more than enough clear evidence that suggests it's the spindle of
choice.

As far as I'm concerned, the threaded spindle system never should have
been, but I suppose they had to start somewhere.

Harold


Threaded spindles have one thing in their favor.

They are a darn sight better than a couple skinny nuts and bolts, when
it comes to changing a chuck. A la the 7xXX mini's.

Other than that, Camlock would be my pick.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

On Nov 14, 3:16 pm, Bill Schwab wrote:
Hello all,
How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4?

Bill

I learned on a gear-head lathe with a D1-4 spindle that students had
damaged by not cleaning out the recess before installing the chuck,
and have a belt drive / threaded spindle lathe at home, also from a
trade school, that is just fine for one operator who has gotten used
to it and isn't doing mass production.

I consider 5C collets more important than the chuck mount or drive.

A single-phase motor won't instantly reverse if you push the switch
handle too far; it just keeps running forward. It has to slow down
until the start winding engages to reverse.

Jim Wilkins

With my HF gear head 12x36, gear noise is not significant, and shifting
the head is much quicker than messing with belts. The shifts req some
'hand' to get right; the gates between speeds are very small. I reworked
the detents to some degree of improvement; still not exactly satisfactory.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Bill Schwab wrote:

Hello all,

The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise
factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded
spindle vs. D1-4?

My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively
self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they
would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then
indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe
experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am
kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an
arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually,
the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea.

A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be
a nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow
it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just
how hard is it to remove the chuck?? Anything else I should be asking?

Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I
could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done???

Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine
is inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next
few decades or so

Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven
lathe: would you buy it again?

Thanks,

Bill


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
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