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D1-4 spindle or $700?
Hello all,
The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4? My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually, the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea. A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be a nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just how hard is it to remove the chuck?? :) Anything else I should be asking? Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done??? Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine is inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next few decades or so ;) Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven lathe: would you buy it again? Thanks, Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Bill Schwab wrote:
Hello all, The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4? My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am kidding myself, please speak up. Unless you are going to cut LH threads your assumptions seem valid. Screws are one more variance contributing to runout in any chuck. Does it have a taper for collets for small 1 1/16" and less turning. I'd go for a D or L series spindle nose but then that is me. You have valid thoughts, if the price difference makes sense to you than do what makes you happy. We make tradeoffs all the time and it sounds like you have thought this through. Besides, this might not be your only lathe in this life ;) Wes |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Bill Schwab wrote: Hello all, The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4? Well, anything that needs a D1-anything mount will cost more than threaded. You can make your own threaded backplates, faceplates, etc. right on the lathe. In theory, you could make a D1 mount, too, but it is a lot more critical. Whatever mounts to the spindle by camlock needs to have botht the taper and flat mate up simultaneously. That requires some precision fixtures to get it to fit both at the same time. On the other hand, there is a lot of D1 camlock hardware out there, so you can buy expensive stuff like collet chucks surplus if you can wait and watch for a while. The advantage, of course, is a D1-anything mount is a HELL of a lot more solid connection that a small thread. Also, generally, the spindle through hole on a camlock spindle will be a lot bigger than on a threaded spindle for the same size lathe. A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be a nightmare? Certainly not. The only nightmare is the jammed chuck, which should be a rare event under normal use. There is either a way to lock the spindle (engage backgear with direct drive still engaged) or a wrench to put on the spindle to hold it. Changing a threaded chuck is almost too easy. Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? Yes. You have to be very careful when running the lathe in reverse. The only times I did this was to back up when threading a metric thread, or when using a toolpost grinder. On some lathes you have to release belt tension, start the motor, then ease the belt in, or the start will unwind the chuck. If not, just how hard is it to remove the chuck?? Usually, you put the chuck key in the hole and give it a small pull, and it is loose. Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done??? Yes, for work that mounts once, cut it and it's done, that's right. Jon |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
As a hobbyist who does some work for hire, I have used several lathes
in my shop, at a friend's shop and in a couple of different vo-tech shops, each of which had 4 or 5 different lathes. I've used both belt drive and gear head lathes and both threaded headstocks those with the D series mounts. I don't think the noise of a gear head lathe is all that big a deal. And it sure is nice to be able to throw a couple of levers rather than dinking around with dirty (sooner or later) belts. Belts wear out. I would prefer the D1-4 spindle over the threaded spindle, especially since you are just starting out and don't have a bunch of threaded adapters to get rid of. Also, I like the idea of changing chucks without having the bang on the gears to get the chuck loose. Use a wooden board to lay on the ways under the chuck. Carefully set the chuck onto the board and then lift it carefuly into place. My "board" has slats nailed to the front and back edges so it can't slide off the ways. I keep it handy at all times so I am never tempted to make a spindle-tooling change without it. Get the biggest spindle hole you can afford!!! Pete Stanaitis -------------------- Bill Schwab wrote: Hello all, The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4? My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually, the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea. A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be a nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just how hard is it to remove the chuck?? :) Anything else I should be asking? Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done??? Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine is inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next few decades or so ;) Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven lathe: would you buy it again? Thanks, Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Wes,
The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4? My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am kidding myself, please speak up. Unless you are going to cut LH threads your assumptions seem valid. Good point. Screws are one more variance contributing to runout in any chuck. Does it have a taper for collets for small 1 1/16" and less turning. There is a 5MT taper with an adapter to reduce to 3MT. That brings up a question: is there any reason I could not later buy a chuck (collet or otherwise) that fits the taper? Any limitations? I'd go for a D or L series spindle nose but then that is me. I appreciate the candor. You have valid thoughts, if the price difference makes sense to you than do what makes you happy. We make tradeoffs all the time and it sounds like you have thought this through. Within reason, I would like to think that's the case. Again, not knowing very much about lathes makes it difficult to guess what I will eventually find useful. Besides, this might not be your only lathe in this life ;) True enough. I thought about low-balling it with just that idea in mind, but I fear I would outgrow a 7x20 in short order. Thanks! Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:16:12 -0500, Bill Schwab
wrote: Hello all, The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4? My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually, the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea. A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be a nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just how hard is it to remove the chuck?? :) Anything else I should be asking? Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done??? Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine is inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next few decades or so ;) Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven lathe: would you buy it again? Thanks, Bill Chucks don't get stuck on a D1-4 spindle. They definitely do get stuck on threaded spindles, and they can be a bear to deal with when (not if) they do. |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
"Bill Schwab" wrote in message ... Hello all, The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4? My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually, the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea. A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be a nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just how hard is it to remove the chuck?? :) Anything else I should be asking? Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done??? Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine is inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next few decades or so ;) Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven lathe: would you buy it again? Thanks, Bill A fast response, not having read any other comments. Pardon me if I'm simply repeating things others may say. I'd avoid a threaded spindle like the plague if it was my choice. There is *nothing* to recommend one. They serve poorly as compared to almost every other spindle system. The only thing they have going for them is that they are (were) widely used, particularly for older equipment, so you may be able to find accessories on the used market easier than those for other systems. The D system, in my opinion, is the finest spindle system on the market. Considering the Monarch EE used it (D1-3), and all commercially rated engine lathes I've ever run do as well, aside from the LeBlond (L type spindle) , there's more than enough clear evidence that suggests it's the spindle of choice. As far as I'm concerned, the threaded spindle system never should have been, but I suppose they had to start somewhere. Harold |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Wes wrote:
Unless you are going to cut LH threads your assumptions seem valid. I mispoke myself there. LH or RH has nothing to do with it but it does determine which direction you will have to thread from to avoid spinning the chuck loose. Wes |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Bill Schwab" wrote in message ... Hello all, The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4? My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually, the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea. A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be a nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just how hard is it to remove the chuck?? :) Anything else I should be asking? Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done??? Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine is inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next few decades or so ;) Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven lathe: would you buy it again? Thanks, Bill A fast response, not having read any other comments. Pardon me if I'm simply repeating things others may say. I'd avoid a threaded spindle like the plague if it was my choice. There is *nothing* to recommend one. They serve poorly as compared to almost every other spindle system. The only thing they have going for them is that they are (were) widely used, particularly for older equipment, so you may be able to find accessories on the used market easier than those for other systems. The D system, in my opinion, is the finest spindle system on the market. Considering the Monarch EE used it (D1-3), and all commercially rated engine lathes I've ever run do as well, aside from the LeBlond (L type spindle) , there's more than enough clear evidence that suggests it's the spindle of choice. As far as I'm concerned, the threaded spindle system never should have been, but I suppose they had to start somewhere. Harold Threaded spindles have one thing in their favor. They are a darn sight better than a couple skinny nuts and bolts, when it comes to changing a chuck. A la the 7xXX mini's. Other than that, Camlock would be my pick. Cheers Trevor Jones |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Bill Schwab wrote:
There is a 5MT taper with an adapter to reduce to 3MT. That brings up a question: is there any reason I could not later buy a chuck (collet or otherwise) that fits the taper? Any limitations? You can probably get or adapt a collet chuck to fit a 5 Morse taper. You probably can't find a commercial adaptor for jaw-type chucks, and for good reason. You'd need some beefy drawtube to hold it on, if the chuck ever spun in the taper it could ruin the lathe by galling the taper, and God help you if a spinning 6" chuck ever fell out of the taper! If you don't mind surplus, there is D1-x stuff on eBay pretty regularly. My Sheldon 15" lathe has a D1-6, and I got a backplate and a 10" 4-jaw chuck for it by just being patient and letting the crazy bidding pass me by. You have to be a little careful, some eBay sellers may mis-identify the size of the D1 spindle of the item they are selling. So, you may want to have them measure it. Jon |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
On Nov 14, 3:16 pm, Bill Schwab wrote:
Hello all, How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4? Bill I learned on a gear-head lathe with a D1-4 spindle that students had damaged by not cleaning out the recess before installing the chuck, and have a belt drive / threaded spindle lathe at home, also from a trade school, that is just fine for one operator who has gotten used to it and isn't doing mass production. I consider 5C collets more important than the chuck mount or drive. A single-phase motor won't instantly reverse if you push the switch handle too far; it just keeps running forward. It has to slow down until the start winding engages to reverse. Jim Wilkins |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Bill Schwab wrote:
Screws are one more variance contributing to runout in any chuck. Does it have a taper for collets for small 1 1/16" and less turning. There is a 5MT taper with an adapter to reduce to 3MT. That brings up a question: is there any reason I could not later buy a chuck (collet or otherwise) that fits the taper? Any limitations? What is the bore of headstock? 1 3/8" is minimum for using a 5MT to 5C collet adaptor and closing from the back side of headstock. I'd go for a D or L series spindle nose but then that is me. I appreciate the candor. I've used screw, D, and L. L is accurate but a bit of a pita at times compared to the D. A nice conforming block of wood that accurately positions the chuck in relation to spindle makes all three types much nicer to deal with with chucks over 6". You have valid thoughts, if the price difference makes sense to you than do what makes you happy. We make tradeoffs all the time and it sounds like you have thought this through. Within reason, I would like to think that's the case. Again, not knowing very much about lathes makes it difficult to guess what I will eventually find useful. Well you are taking the right approach by asking. Prior Preparation Prevents **** Poor Performance. Besides, this might not be your only lathe in this life ;) True enough. I thought about low-balling it with just that idea in mind, but I fear I would outgrow a 7x20 in short order. Could you give us an idea of your hobbies and the things you plan to make? Might help us in giving advice worth what you paid for it. ;) Wes |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Don,
Chucks don't get stuck on a D1-4 spindle. They definitely do get stuck on threaded spindles, and they can be a bear to deal with when (not if) they do. You seem to hold the majority opinion. Having just done battle (and wong) with a Ford fan clutch, the point is very well taken. However, is there a reliable and appropriate place to grab the spindle? If it is just a matter of making a good connection and adding some leverage, then I should be able to live with it. Slight inconvenience is one thing; having to damage the machine to do a tool change is another. As much as I like Enco, the real problem might be their offerings. I will look again for a comparable machine with a cam lock spindle. Thanks! Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
"Bill Schwab" wrote in message ... Don, Chucks don't get stuck on a D1-4 spindle. They definitely do get stuck on threaded spindles, and they can be a bear to deal with when (not if) they do. You seem to hold the majority opinion. Having just done battle (and wong) with a Ford fan clutch, the point is very well taken. However, is there a reliable and appropriate place to grab the spindle? If it is just a matter of making a good connection and adding some leverage, then I should be able to live with it. Slight inconvenience is one thing; having to damage the machine to do a tool change is another. As much as I like Enco, the real problem might be their offerings. I will look again for a comparable machine with a cam lock spindle. Thanks! Bill FWIW, I remove stubborn chucks on my South Bend (threaded spindle) with a strap wrench on the chuck body and a couple of blocks of wood stuffed around the bull gear, which engage the teeth. Not one tooth, but several teeth. I don't lock the bull gear to remove chucks. I don't think I've had to use that method for ten years, though. If you keep the spindle nose clean it usually doesn't grab that hard. I don't like to put any pressure on the jaws but I'll put a pine stick in there most of the time and just give it a mild jerk, and it comes loose. I had a homemade tool that engaged the square socket in one of the jaw screws to do this, but after a couple of years I found it wasn't necessary. -- Ed Huntress |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
On Nov 15, 9:17 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
FWIW, I remove stubborn chucks on my South Bend (threaded spindle) with a strap wrench on the chuck body and a couple of blocks of wood stuffed around the bull gear, which engage the teeth. ... I don't think I've had to use that method for ten years, though. If you keep the spindle nose clean it usually doesn't grab that hard. ... Ed Huntress That's pretty much my experience, too. The chuck is very easy to unscrew unless I've been making interrupted cuts like rounding a large square block and even then it's not too bad as long as the belt wasn't tight. The only down side is that I can't take heavy smoking-blue-chip cuts with carbide unless it's 1" or less, in a collet. So I use the bandsaw to rough out large disks. Jim Wilkins |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
With my HF gear head 12x36, gear noise is not significant, and shifting
the head is much quicker than messing with belts. The shifts req some 'hand' to get right; the gates between speeds are very small. I reworked the detents to some degree of improvement; still not exactly satisfactory. JR Dweller in the cellar Bill Schwab wrote: Hello all, The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4? My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am kidding myself, please speak up. I do know that both the IRS and an arborist have alternate suggestions for the price difference - actually, the IRS has ambitions that far exceed it, but you get the idea. A couple of reservations about a threaded spindle: will chuck changes be a nightmare? Less judgmentally, how does one hold the spindle to allow it? Is the reverse switch an accident waiting to happen? If not, just how hard is it to remove the chuck?? :) Anything else I should be asking? Points about round stock and collets are well taken. Still, I _think_ I could simply turn to a desired diameter and be pretty much done??? Otherwise, the cross and compound dials are 0.100/rev, and the machine is inherently imperial, which is what I suspect I will want for the next few decades or so ;) Another good question to ask of any owners of the 12x36 belt-driven lathe: would you buy it again? Thanks, Bill -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses -------------------------------------------------------------- Dependence is Vulnerability: -------------------------------------------------------------- "Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal" "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.." |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Bill Schwab wrote:
Don, Chucks don't get stuck on a D1-4 spindle. They definitely do get stuck on threaded spindles, and they can be a bear to deal with when (not if) they do. You seem to hold the majority opinion. Having just done battle (and wong) with a Ford fan clutch, the point is very well taken. However, is there a reliable and appropriate place to grab the spindle? If it is just a matter of making a good connection and adding some leverage, then I should be able to live with it. Slight inconvenience is one thing; having to damage the machine to do a tool change is another. As much as I like Enco, the real problem might be their offerings. I will look again for a comparable machine with a cam lock spindle. Having a lot of experience with Atlas/Craftsman lathes, and helping people with stuck chucks on these as the moderator of the Atlas/Craftsman group on Yahoo, first, let me point out that this is just not that big a problem. I did manage to get my chuck stuck once, in about 20 years of use. I usually just engaged the backgear without pulling the direct drive pin, and uncrewed the chuck with the chuck wrench. If that didn't work, I'd give the wrench a few taps with a bar or piece of handy wood. If that didn't get it loose, I then rigged a carrying strap I have around the step pulley and made an improvised strap wrench to hold the spindle. This has worked for just about every group member who had the stuck chuck problem. Be wary of all the low-cost Chinese import machines. Some people have been happy with theirs, but I've seen some real horrors. A guy near me got one of these with no known brand, and it wouldn't even power on! It had a motor start handle on the carriage, and the linkage was out of adjustment. It had the usual gearbox full of metal chips and abrasive dust, and the bench had the adjustable feet so close together I was afraid the thing would fall over if you leaned on it. Even with the feet run down to the floor, you could set the lathe rocking with one finger! Jon |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Ed, Jim,
Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 15, 9:17 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote: FWIW, I remove stubborn chucks on my South Bend (threaded spindle) with a strap wrench on the chuck body and a couple of blocks of wood stuffed around the bull gear, which engage the teeth. ... I don't think I've had to use that method for ten years, though. If you keep the spindle nose clean it usually doesn't grab that hard. ... Ed Huntress That's pretty much my experience, too. The chuck is very easy to unscrew unless I've been making interrupted cuts like rounding a large square block and even then it's not too bad as long as the belt wasn't tight. The only down side is that I can't take heavy smoking-blue-chip cuts with carbide unless it's 1" or less, in a collet. So I use the bandsaw to rough out large disks. Suppose you did overdo it, how do you remove the chuck then? The closest I get to burning chips is "deep" cuts with a flycutter on my mill. In that case, I cut only with the table moving left to right so the "angry" chips hit the wall instead of me - learned that one the hard way =:0 In most other circumstances, I can't usually keep an eye on everything all at once fast enough to take deep cuts w/o making scrap. There are exceptions, but I am typically more worried about ruining a part with a lot of work in it than I am about cutting faster. Dumb question: why is the collet better? Is it taper mounted? I can see why that's better than threads for concentricity, but what about safety? I asked about taper mounted chucks, and the question of it flying out of the spindle was raised. My idealistic side wants to know why lathes appear not to have drawbars; you will probably say that it is so the stock can pass through the spindle??? Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Jon Elson wrote:
Bill Schwab wrote: Don, Chucks don't get stuck on a D1-4 spindle. They definitely do get stuck on threaded spindles, and they can be a bear to deal with when (not if) they do. You seem to hold the majority opinion. Having just done battle (and wong) with a Ford fan clutch, the point is very well taken. However, is there a reliable and appropriate place to grab the spindle? If it is just a matter of making a good connection and adding some leverage, then I should be able to live with it. Slight inconvenience is one thing; having to damage the machine to do a tool change is another. As much as I like Enco, the real problem might be their offerings. I will look again for a comparable machine with a cam lock spindle. Having a lot of experience with Atlas/Craftsman lathes, and helping people with stuck chucks on these as the moderator of the Atlas/Craftsman group on Yahoo, first, let me point out that this is just not that big a problem. I did manage to get my chuck stuck once, in about 20 years of use. I usually just engaged the backgear without pulling the direct drive pin, and uncrewed the chuck with the chuck wrench. If that didn't work, I'd give the wrench a few taps with a bar or piece of handy wood. If that didn't get it loose, I then rigged a carrying strap I have around the step pulley and made an improvised strap wrench to hold the spindle. This has worked for just about every group member who had the stuck chuck problem. Be wary of all the low-cost Chinese import machines. Some people have been happy with theirs, but I've seen some real horrors. A guy near me got one of these with no known brand, and it wouldn't even power on! It had a motor start handle on the carriage, and the linkage was out of adjustment. It had the usual gearbox full of metal chips and abrasive dust, and the bench had the adjustable feet so close together I was afraid the thing would fall over if you leaned on it. Even with the feet run down to the floor, you could set the lathe rocking with one finger! My older Enco 1024 has those feet close together (about 1 foot) but it certainly seems stable. I do intend to add some square tubing outriggers though, and put it on casters. |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Wes,
Besides, this might not be your only lathe in this life ;) True enough. I thought about low-balling it with just that idea in mind, but I fear I would outgrow a 7x20 in short order. Could you give us an idea of your hobbies and the things you plan to make? Might help us in giving advice worth what you paid for it. ;) Most uses would be fairly simple turning of shafts to make pins for assembling the typical experimental fixtures I build, and no doubt various (for my mill) spindle mounted spuds for rough alignment, and/or visually confirming alignment. Just what I need, MORE tools :) On the latter, say what you will, I'd rather use what a DRO would cost to buy other things. The $900 Enco lathe would no doubt do all of that. In fact, it would probably do pretty much everything I could think of right now. The bigger machines would hopefully be able to do the things I can't yet envision, and would enable me to practice with power feeds that are not present on the cheaper machine. With that said, I am going to seriously reconsider the cheaper machine, if only to be fair to my wallet. Machining is certainly a hobby for me, but it is also career development. So far the benefits are subtle, and there is not too much that I can say "that was possible because...", but things are headed in that direction. Does that help? Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Bill Schwab wrote:
Suppose you did overdo it, how do you remove the chuck then? I would bump the motor over so that the spindle turned the chuck in the unscrew direction. A hardwood block cut to catch the jaw at about 9 o'clock rested on the ways. I never broke a tooth and sometimes the idiots at work had 'power installed' the chuck. Btw, it was a 1970's era Enco lathe. Wes |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Bill Schwab wrote:
The $900 Enco lathe would no doubt do all of that. In fact, it would probably do pretty much everything I could think of right now. The bigger machines would hopefully be able to do the things I can't yet envision, and would enable me to practice with power feeds that are not present on the cheaper machine. With that said, I am going to seriously reconsider the cheaper machine, if only to be fair to my wallet. Machining is certainly a hobby for me, but it is also career development. So far the benefits are subtle, and there is not too much that I can say "that was possible because...", but things are headed in that direction. Does that help? Well you know what your needs and budget are at this moment and if it turns out that you want a more capable machine you could deal it off to help finance another one. 25 or so years ago I used an old enco to learn on out in the maintenance crib. It had a screw chuck, not much power and had rigidity issues but if I worked at it, it would get the job done albet slowly. I've seen some damned impressive work turned out on mini-lathes, mill drills, and mini-mills. If you find that this is not enough machine for you as you progress, you can upgrade, after all you are not married to it. No one can decide for you. Btw, what kind of mill do you have? Wes |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
"Bill Schwab" wrote in message ... Ed, Jim, Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 15, 9:17 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote: FWIW, I remove stubborn chucks on my South Bend (threaded spindle) with a strap wrench on the chuck body and a couple of blocks of wood stuffed around the bull gear, which engage the teeth. ... I don't think I've had to use that method for ten years, though. If you keep the spindle nose clean it usually doesn't grab that hard. ... Ed Huntress That's pretty much my experience, too. The chuck is very easy to unscrew unless I've been making interrupted cuts like rounding a large square block and even then it's not too bad as long as the belt wasn't tight. The only down side is that I can't take heavy smoking-blue-chip cuts with carbide unless it's 1" or less, in a collet. So I use the bandsaw to rough out large disks. Suppose you did overdo it, how do you remove the chuck then? Well, as I mentioned, the worst case I've ever faced responded to a strap wrench on the chuck body. Just watch out what you "jam" to keep the spindle from turning. You don't want to load up a single tooth on a gear. The closest I get to burning chips is "deep" cuts with a flycutter on my mill. In that case, I cut only with the table moving left to right so the "angry" chips hit the wall instead of me - learned that one the hard way =:0 In most other circumstances, I can't usually keep an eye on everything all at once fast enough to take deep cuts w/o making scrap. There are exceptions, but I am typically more worried about ruining a part with a lot of work in it than I am about cutting faster. Dumb question: why is the collet better? Is it taper mounted? I can see why that's better than threads for concentricity, but what about safety? Yes, it's centered in a taper. It's much more accurate. There are two types of closing arrangements you'll find on hobby-type lathes: face-closing collets, which push the collet into the taper from the front with a threaded ring; and drawbar type, which are pulled into the taper from the back side of the spindle. There are a couple of other drawbar arrangements used in production type lathes. I can't think of any safety problems with them. My machine (South Bend) has a hollow threaded drawbar that sticks through the spindle hole from behind the head and pulls the collet in. I asked about taper mounted chucks, and the question of it flying out of the spindle was raised. My idealistic side wants to know why lathes appear not to have drawbars; you will probably say that it is so the stock can pass through the spindle??? They do use hollow drawbars, as the case with mine. Any stock I'm using with a collet is smaller than the hole in my drawbar. But they don't use drawbars to hold the chuck on the spindle. -- Ed Huntress |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:59:02 -0500, Bill Schwab
wrote: Ed, Jim, Jim Wilkins wrote: On Nov 15, 9:17 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote: FWIW, I remove stubborn chucks on my South Bend (threaded spindle) with a strap wrench on the chuck body and a couple of blocks of wood stuffed around the bull gear, which engage the teeth. ... I don't think I've had to use that method for ten years, though. If you keep the spindle nose clean it usually doesn't grab that hard. ... Ed Huntress That's pretty much my experience, too. The chuck is very easy to unscrew unless I've been making interrupted cuts like rounding a large square block and even then it's not too bad as long as the belt wasn't tight. The only down side is that I can't take heavy smoking-blue-chip cuts with carbide unless it's 1" or less, in a collet. So I use the bandsaw to rough out large disks. Suppose you did overdo it, how do you remove the chuck then? The closest I get to burning chips is "deep" cuts with a flycutter on my mill. In that case, I cut only with the table moving left to right so the "angry" chips hit the wall instead of me - learned that one the hard way =:0 In most other circumstances, I can't usually keep an eye on everything all at once fast enough to take deep cuts w/o making scrap. There are exceptions, but I am typically more worried about ruining a part with a lot of work in it than I am about cutting faster. Dumb question: why is the collet better? Is it taper mounted? I can see why that's better than threads for concentricity, but what about safety? I asked about taper mounted chucks, and the question of it flying out of the spindle was raised. My idealistic side wants to know why lathes appear not to have drawbars; you will probably say that it is so the stock can pass through the spindle??? Bill The camlock has both taper mount and what amounts to a drawbar -- the cam locks that firmly and positively draw the chuck up against the tapered seat with considerable mechanical advantage. The taper is a fairly steep taper, but I still sometimes have to bonk the chuck body with a wooden mallet to pop it loose after the cams are released. As you note, that keeps the spindle hole clear. Note: it's important to carefully clean the tapers in both chuck and on the spindle before mountup. Only takes a second. I have both, and I gotta say I like the camlock a whole bunch better. Repeatability/accuracy after dismount and remount is much better with the camlock in my experience. I've never gotten a threaded chuck so stuck I couldn't get it off by locking the bull gear and reefing on a 2 x 4 in the jaws of the chuck -- but I hated doing that when it was necessary! Fortunately, most lathes with threaded spindles are belt drive, so there's a limit to how much torque the spindle can supply before the belt slips. A lathe with a threaded spindle is worlds better than no lathe at all! Lots of very good stuff has been made on Logans and South Bends. But if I were lookin' for a lathe today, camlock spindle would be high on the list of must-have features. |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Wes,
Well you know what your needs and budget are at this moment and if it turns out that you want a more capable machine you could deal it off to help finance another one. 25 or so years ago I used an old enco to learn on out in the maintenance crib. It had a screw chuck, not much power and had rigidity issues but if I worked at it, it would get the job done albet slowly. I've seen some damned impressive work turned out on mini-lathes, mill drills, and mini-mills. If you find that this is not enough machine for you as you progress, you can upgrade, after all you are not married to it. The 12x36 strikes me as a good pick, but the geared head gets to $3k in a hurry. I do not mind spending money on things I will use; I hate wasting it. Between some "unexpected" expenses[*], not to mention taxes, more taxes, and even more damn taxes, cheaper is sounding better. [*] vehicles need maintenance, and trees sometimes need to be removed, just more so this year than most. Unlike an R8 mill, lathe tooling (other than the wonderfully cheap bits) appears to be fairly machine-specific. I could always sell something that I outgrow, but it looks as though one starts over on the chucks. Enco tells me that the geared 12x36 has a cross-slide dial calibrated 0.2/rev (measuring diameter); they tell me that is more typical than a straight distance calibration. Do you give any points for that? From limited RT and boring head work, I have experienced radius/diameter conversion and do not find it particularly annoying. It has a D1-4 spindle which is nice. Did I mention that it is expensiveg? Either the 9x20 or the 8x36/belt will have a threaded spindle. The 8x36 adds a gap and power feed along with the obvious capacity increases. There is no denying that I get better finishes using the power feed than cranking dials on my mill. With a little observing, I got the sense that using the power feed is part of the skill to be developed; it would be nice to practice with that available. I think it will be easier to convince myself to double the price to get to the 8x36 (though even that price tag stings) than to go very much higher. Anyway, that's my problem. Thanks to all for the insights. No one can decide for you. Btw, what kind of mill do you have? I have a round column mill-drill with a power feed and ER-32 collets. Most days, I find it difficult to justify considering anything else. My main gripe is that the vertical feed "lock" is not completely effective, forcing me to steady it during flycutting and other squaring operations. Cross-travel becomes limiting at times, but not terribly so. I probably will get a knee mill at some point, but I am glad I did not buy a benchtop knee - the cross-travel on the ones I have seen is not adequate. There is a price/size/weight tradeoff to consider, but at least I am sweating that with a working mill in my garage. Grizzly has an interesting 1700 lb mill; a baby PB is probably a better pick, but the spindle/table distance is pretty poor. Maybe a riser block??? I have looked a little, but do not see one for it. It seems that having it able to put the spindle in contact with the table is not terribly useful; I do a fair number of table setups, but with a collet chuck and some tooling, there should be room for a riser with little to no apparent harm???? The next step up (9x42 or so) adds enough weight to give me pause. I might end up buying just that, but I want to think carefully and have a plan for handling it in pinch (storm damage or similar scenario). The HF gantry crane is a bit too big and falls short on capacity for a 9x42. Thanks! Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Don,
I have both, and I gotta say I like the camlock a whole bunch better. Repeatability/accuracy after dismount and remount is much better with the camlock in my experience. Understood. My hunch is that when doing something that needs good remounting accuracy, I'd use a 4-jaw chuck and an indicator. Since a "production run" for me means more than four units, I can afford to take the scenic route and view it as (much neededg) practice. My goal is to build what I design to the limits of my ability to inspect it; whether a failure hits the scrap bin depends on severity of the defect, time pressure, mood, and how much work I have invested in the part when I notice the problem. A functional part with only a cosmetic flaw will frequently see action, especially if it is hidden during use. Something that I manage to under size from the beginning will usually go directly in the scrap bin. I've never gotten a threaded chuck so stuck I couldn't get it off by locking the bull gear and reefing on a 2 x 4 in the jaws of the chuck -- but I hated doing that when it was necessary! The knocking it loose part does not sound all that bad to me. Loading gear teeth and hoping I have not isolated one tooth - that's a little more disturbing :) Fortunately, most lathes with threaded spindles are belt drive, so there's a limit to how much torque the spindle can supply before the belt slips. A lathe with a threaded spindle is worlds better than no lathe at all! Well said. Lots of very good stuff has been made on Logans and South Bends. But if I were lookin' for a lathe today, camlock spindle would be high on the list of must-have features. Fair enough. I might compromi$e on that part, but I appreciate those of you who find it a must saying as much. Thanks!! Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
I have a few comments about the 9x20 lathe, Bill. I'm jumping into this
thread here because I don't see your original message. There are several shortcomings in the 9x20 product. The base clamp for the top/compound slide is weak, and is a serious design flaw that results in a lot of chatter and frustration. The good news is that it can be improved to practically eliminate any chatter. There are various 9x20 websites (including my own at the link below) and a Yahoo group for all sorts of tips on improving the 9x20 model. Many users don't like using shims under the cutting tools to get the tool cutting edge on the centerline of the workpiece, using the supplied turret-style toolpost. Some have converted to AXA/series 100 quick change toolposts, but I feel this size is too large for the 9x20. I have utilized some gizmos (a M.E. friend told me about) that haved a sloped trough in them, that allow the centerline adjustment to be done easily. There are several vendors/distributors that offer a couple of QCTPs which are sized smaller than the AXA/series 100 posts, although some of them are aluminum. The Morse #3 taper collets are available from numerous sources, and I got a complete set from Phase II for about $115 several years ago. The Morse collets do not allow the workpiece to pass through the collet (extending into the headstock), so the grip on a workpiece has to be at the end of the stock (for about 2"). The Morse collets will use a threaded rod for a drawbar, unlike a hollow drawbar for 5C collets which allow the stock to extend into or through the headstock, to the left. The only real drawback to Morse taper collets drawn in with a drawbar is that they require a somewhat firm rap to release them, and that shock load is opposed by the spindle bearing. Lathe operators have been doing this for a couple of generations now, and no immediate damage is caused when the collets are released cautiously. As far as stripping gears to remove a stuck chuck on the threaded spindle, the first gear from the spindle gear is nylon, considered to be a fuse/weak point by design to prevent lots of damage in the event that a crash happens. A simple retainer is included in the accessories that's used to prevent the chuck from unscrewing, although it may not actually be a fail-safe device. Many 9x20 owners have complaints that the machine isn't ready to run upon delivery, and most of 'em are valid complaints. The buyer should be prepared to disassemble much of the machine after delivery to perform several tasks including replacing most of the ****ty fasteners with better quality ones, deburring and removing sharp corners that will easily cause cuts in the hands of the user, a thorough check of all electrical connections, improving alignment of numerous parts, and cleaning and final adjustments to allow the machine to operate as one might expect a new machine to. Another point I make, not to gloat or cause you discomfort, is that when I bought my 9x20 from Enco, it was $600 delivered. Since I was already familiar with the machine's flaws, I was prepared for the condition of the machine as it was delivered. Now the machine is $850 plus delivery (without the lathe stand), and I think that $900 would steer me away from it, although I still think the 9x20 lathe performs fairly well after the improvements.. just not $900 worth, plus the work required to make it perform properly. Several regular participants here on RCM have the 9x20 models, and if you haven't read about the problems of the machine, I would recommend that you look up some comments in the acchived messages, and elsewhere on the interweb. It seems that the 9x20 lathe would meet your requirements for the uses you mentioned, if you're agreeable to the price and the additional improvements the machine requires. Additionally, the 9x20 will cut more thread pitches than the limited ones they publish in their catalogs. Charts can be obtained from the Yahoo 9x20 group, or from one of us owners, or in a previous years' retired dropbox files. As for Enco's comments about how the feed dials are marked on other models, the dials are not accurate when the screws are metric thread and the dials are marked by thousandths of an inch. Each full turn of the dial increases the inaccuracy. These machine distributors should know better than to do this sort of crap, but they don't care. WB .......... metalworking projects www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html "Bill Schwab" wrote in message ... Wes, The Enco 12x36 belt-driven lathe is speaking to me. The money and noise factors favor it over the geared head. How big a deal is the threaded spindle vs. D1-4? My hunch is that most things I would do would either be effectively self-centering by being chucked, turned and faced in one setup, or they would be milled and bored and then mounted in a 4-jaw chuck and then indicated to run true. The problem is that I have next to no lathe experience, so predicting what I will need is a little risky; if I am kidding myself, please speak up. Unless you are going to cut LH threads your assumptions seem valid. Good point. Screws are one more variance contributing to runout in any chuck. Does it have a taper for collets for small 1 1/16" and less turning. There is a 5MT taper with an adapter to reduce to 3MT. That brings up a question: is there any reason I could not later buy a chuck (collet or otherwise) that fits the taper? Any limitations? I'd go for a D or L series spindle nose but then that is me. I appreciate the candor. You have valid thoughts, if the price difference makes sense to you than do what makes you happy. We make tradeoffs all the time and it sounds like you have thought this through. Within reason, I would like to think that's the case. Again, not knowing very much about lathes makes it difficult to guess what I will eventually find useful. Besides, this might not be your only lathe in this life ;) True enough. I thought about low-balling it with just that idea in mind, but I fear I would outgrow a 7x20 in short order. Thanks! Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Wild_Bill wrote:
I have a few comments about the 9x20 lathe, Bill. I'm jumping into this thread here because I don't see your original message. Thanks for taking the time. There are several shortcomings in the 9x20 product. The base clamp for the top/compound slide is weak, and is a serious design flaw that results in a lot of chatter and frustration. The good news is that it can be improved to practically eliminate any chatter. There are various 9x20 websites (including my own at the link below) and a Yahoo group for all sorts of tips on improving the 9x20 model. Good point. I have seen such sites, and now that you mention it, they were one of the reasons I began looking at the 8x36 machines. Many users don't like using shims under the cutting tools to get the tool cutting edge on the centerline of the workpiece, using the supplied turret-style toolpost. Some have converted to AXA/series 100 quick change toolposts, but I feel this size is too large for the 9x20. I have utilized some gizmos (a M.E. friend told me about) that haved a sloped trough in them, that allow the centerline adjustment to be done easily. There are several vendors/distributors that offer a couple of QCTPs which are sized smaller than the AXA/series 100 posts, although some of them are aluminum. I am aware of the problem. The plan is probably going to be to live with it for a while, and then either build or buy a better post when it starts to bother me, and wallet isn't stinging. There is a recommendation earlier in this or the other thread on my lathe search. I think the Phase II was the poster's second choice, but if their RT is any example, it would probably be more than adequate. The Morse #3 taper collets are available from numerous sources, and I got a complete set from Phase II for about $115 several years ago. The Morse collets do not allow the workpiece to pass through the collet (extending into the headstock), so the grip on a workpiece has to be at the end of the stock (for about 2"). The Morse collets will use a threaded rod for a drawbar, unlike a hollow drawbar for 5C collets which allow the stock to extend into or through the headstock, to the left. I think I read that the 8x36 machine will accept 5C collets, but need to check that. Still, I am not convinced I will go the extra money over it. The only real drawback to Morse taper collets drawn in with a drawbar is that they require a somewhat firm rap to release them, and that shock load is opposed by the spindle bearing. Lathe operators have been doing this for a couple of generations now, and no immediate damage is caused when the collets are released cautiously. Understood. Another point I make, not to gloat or cause you discomfort, is that when I bought my 9x20 from Enco, it was $600 delivered. Since I was already familiar with the machine's flaws, I was prepared for the condition of the machine as it was delivered. Now the machine is $850 plus delivery (without the lathe stand), and I think that $900 would steer me away from it, although I still think the 9x20 lathe performs fairly well after the improvements.. just not $900 worth, plus the work required to make it perform properly. OUCH. As for Enco's comments about how the feed dials are marked on other models, the dials are not accurate when the screws are metric thread and the dials are marked by thousandths of an inch. Each full turn of the dial increases the inaccuracy. These machine distributors should know better than to do this sort of crap, but they don't care. Are you saying that either of the 8x36 lathes have metric screws? My reading and questioning suggests that they are imperial, but if you have specific information disputing that, it is worth another round of questions. Thanks, Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:20:48 -0500, Bill Schwab
wrote: snip Either the 9x20 or the 8x36/belt will have a threaded spindle. The 8x36 adds a gap and power feed along with the obvious capacity increases. There is no denying that I get better finishes using the power feed than cranking dials on my mill. With a little observing, I got the sense that using the power feed is part of the skill to be developed; it would be nice to practice with that available. snip Hi Bill, I don't know if this model (CQ9325 10 x 18" Bench Lathe) is available here in the USA, but it had several nice features that the 9x20 is lacking. See this review: http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloami...cq9325rev.html -standard V-belts (9x20 has a rubber-band :) -cam lock tail stock -reverse tumbler -stronger tool post - MT3&4 tapers (not MT2&3) It looked nice, already bit on a 9x20 though... -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b Remove no.spam for email |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Bill Schwab wrote:
The 12x36 strikes me as a good pick, but the geared head gets to $3k in a hurry. I do not mind spending money on things I will use; I hate wasting it. Between some "unexpected" expenses[*], not to mention taxes, more taxes, and even more damn taxes, cheaper is sounding better. [*] vehicles need maintenance, and trees sometimes need to be removed, just more so this year than most. I understand that one. Not only having the money but not being willing to cut into your reserves in case the job goes south or the car dies. Unlike an R8 mill, lathe tooling (other than the wonderfully cheap bits) appears to be fairly machine-specific. I could always sell something that I outgrow, but it looks as though one starts over on the chucks. Well a lathe w/o chucks isn't going to sell. Enco tells me that the geared 12x36 has a cross-slide dial calibrated 0.2/rev (measuring diameter); they tell me that is more typical than a straight distance calibration. Do you give any points for that? The enco I first used was direct distance. Drove me nuts after using a real lathe in college. Diameter reduction is the way to go for graduations. From limited RT and boring head work, I have experienced radius/diameter conversion and do not find it particularly annoying. It has a D1-4 spindle which is nice. Did I mention that it is expensiveg? Yes you did. My home lathe has a L00. I really like the D series but I really like having a lathe of any kind. Either the 9x20 or the 8x36/belt will have a threaded spindle. The 8x36 adds a gap and power feed along with the obvious capacity increases. There is no denying that I get better finishes using the power feed than cranking dials on my mill. With a little observing, I got the sense that using the power feed is part of the skill to be developed; it would be nice to practice with that available. No power feed? Got a link to it? If it doesnt have power feed does it have screw cutting? I think it will be easier to convince myself to double the price to get to the 8x36 (though even that price tag stings) than to go very much higher. Anyway, that's my problem. Thanks to all for the insights. Got a link to that one too? No one can decide for you. Btw, what kind of mill do you have? I have a round column mill-drill with a power feed and ER-32 collets. Most days, I find it difficult to justify considering anything else. My main gripe is that the vertical feed "lock" is not completely effective, forcing me to steady it during flycutting and other squaring operations. Cross-travel becomes limiting at times, but not terribly so. Well you know the limitations and got a taste of limitations. My Bridgeport has limitations too. I probably will get a knee mill at some point, but I am glad I did not buy a benchtop knee - the cross-travel on the ones I have seen is not adequate. There is a price/size/weight tradeoff to consider, but at least I am sweating that with a working mill in my garage. Grizzly has an interesting 1700 lb mill; a baby PB is probably a better pick, but the spindle/table distance is pretty poor. Maybe a riser block??? I have looked a little, but do not see one for it. It seems that having it able to put the spindle in contact with the table is not terribly useful; I do a fair number of table setups, but with a collet chuck and some tooling, there should be room for a riser with little to no apparent harm???? The next step up (9x42 or so) adds enough weight to give me pause. I might end up buying just that, but I want to think carefully and have a plan for handling it in pinch (storm damage or similar scenario). The HF gantry crane is a bit too big and falls short on capacity for a 9x42. What part of the country are you in? If you are in the rust belt then looking at a used bp if you upgrade the mill makes since if you can drive and inspect it before bidding. You are asking good questions and doing due dilligence. Being a careful shopper is the sign of a intelligent person rather than a 'consumer'. Wes |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Leon Fisk wrote:
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:20:48 -0500, Bill Schwab wrote: snip Either the 9x20 or the 8x36/belt will have a threaded spindle. The 8x36 adds a gap and power feed along with the obvious capacity increases. There is no denying that I get better finishes using the power feed than cranking dials on my mill. With a little observing, I got the sense that using the power feed is part of the skill to be developed; it would be nice to practice with that available. snip Hi Bill, I don't know if this model (CQ9325 10 x 18" Bench Lathe) is available here in the USA, but it had several nice features that the 9x20 is lacking. See this review: http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloami...cq9325rev.html I can't comment on the lathe but that seems to be a very well done review and does look like a capable lathe. Regarding this thread I have L00 and D1-4 mounts, one on each of my lathes, I prefer the D1-4 as it just seems easier to use and adapters are readily available and can be cheap depending on the quality required. The D1-4 lathe is a Harrison M300 (13 x 40), used UK iron. My neighbour has a Myford which uses a threaded chuck mount and he does very good work and can reverse it but very cautiously, he works within its limitations and visits me when they will get exceeded. -standard V-belts (9x20 has a rubber-band :) -cam lock tail stock -reverse tumbler -stronger tool post - MT3&4 tapers (not MT2&3) It looked nice, already bit on a 9x20 though... |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Don Foreman wrote:
I have both, and I gotta say I like the camlock a whole bunch better. Repeatability/accuracy after dismount and remount is much better with the camlock in my experience. I agree. I have both as well, 9" SB and a 12x36 D1-4 gear head. I think Don has summed it up nicely. Fitch |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Wes,
Bill Schwab wrote: The 12x36 strikes me as a good pick, but the geared head gets to $3k in a hurry. I do not mind spending money on things I will use; I hate wasting it. Between some "unexpected" expenses[*], not to mention taxes, more taxes, and even more damn taxes, cheaper is sounding better. [*] vehicles need maintenance, and trees sometimes need to be removed, just more so this year than most. I understand that one. Not only having the money but not being willing to cut into your reserves in case the job goes south or the car dies. Yup. Funny how the tax bill never seems to drop though. Sorry, but I'm staring at property tax bills that make the lathe look cheap, and that's just the county's bite out of my hide (and not even all of it). Unlike an R8 mill, lathe tooling (other than the wonderfully cheap bits) appears to be fairly machine-specific. I could always sell something that I outgrow, but it looks as though one starts over on the chucks. Well a lathe w/o chucks isn't going to sell. I sense that :) I was expecting to buy the machine and then tooling, but it pretty clearly does not work that way, probably because of all the different spindle types??? The enco I first used was direct distance. Drove me nuts after using a real lathe in college. Diameter reduction is the way to go for graduations. Given that the diameter is what one can measure, I follow. However, I can divide by two a few times for the difference in cost. From limited RT and boring head work, I have experienced radius/diameter conversion and do not find it particularly annoying. It has a D1-4 spindle which is nice. Did I mention that it is expensiveg? Yes you did. My home lathe has a L00. I really like the D series but I really like having a lathe of any kind. Either the 9x20 or the 8x36/belt will have a threaded spindle. The 8x36 adds a gap and power feed along with the obvious capacity increases. There is no denying that I get better finishes using the power feed than cranking dials on my mill. With a little observing, I got the sense that using the power feed is part of the skill to be developed; it would be nice to practice with that available. No power feed? Got a link to it? If it doesnt have power feed does it have screw cutting? Not at the moment. Maybe it is just me, but Enco's web site has been doing weird things lately. However, if you can get to it or have a catalog, note the 9x20's description with explicit references to "manual" and that it appears to be missing a longitudinal screw. I am flying partially blind, but it adds up to a pattern. I am starting to think the 9x20 is off the table anyway, but it is better to have an accurate picture of it. I think it will be easier to convince myself to double the price to get to the 8x36 (though even that price tag stings) than to go very much higher. Anyway, that's my problem. Thanks to all for the insights. Got a link to that one too? Again, Enco's web site does not seem to like me right now. I am using Ubuntu 7.10 (IPV6 blacklisted) and Firefox. I might try a reboot in a while. Again, I am looking seriously at the belt-driven 8x36, currently on sale. The way the prices are running right now, moving up to the geared head equates to taking out the second tree on the estimate. Money is not that tight, but you get the idea - it would be tight if I stopped thinking this way. BTW, I think that second tree is going to get a stay. The one that has become a home for woodpeckers unfortunately needs to come down; there is simply no way to remove the rot and leave a viable tree, and it threatens my house and the neighbor's cars. The good news is that at least it is a tree that does nothing for shade. What part of the country are you in? If you are in the rust belt then looking at a used bp if you upgrade the mill makes since if you can drive and inspect it before bidding. North central FL. Inspecting an old machine is an interesting concept. I'm not sure I am up to that. Somebody (Guy Lautard??) sells a video on how to do it. Measurements I can do, and with a list of questions in hand, I might be able to do a reasonable job. I am not in a super hurry to grab another mill, but I probably should get the video. A small part of the lathe is to buy a machine from Enco as practice for a later purchase of a mill. I very much doubt that I will end up with two lathes, but one scenario I am considering is to get baby BP and keep my mill-drill for among other things, stuff that would not fit in the 13" space. You are asking good questions and doing due dilligence. Being a careful shopper is the sign of a intelligent person rather than a 'consumer'. Good questions are not much help without good answers - thanks to all for providing them! Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Bill, could you clear up a bit of confusion on my part? You have previously
mentioned a more expensive lathe, and referred to it as a 8x36, and I assumed it was a typographic error. The 8x36" dimensions are compatible with a mill table travel. Have you been referring to the 12x36" lathe model? It has a #5 Morse taper in the spindle BTW, for the Enco model that's priced about $1,949 (Gap Bed Bench Lathe With Back Gear). I would expect a new set of MT #5 collets to be expensive. In looking at the recent flyer ad, I don't see that the specs/features for the 12x36 include a power cross feed. This model may have that feature, and some owners here on RCM should be able to provide more info about that model. I recall numerous 12x36 owners praising these machines. I don't know that the other models you may be considering actually use metric feedscrews with inch dials, but it would be worth your time to ask an informed person from the company that sells the machine. The 9x20 model has inch screws and dials if they're the same as when I bought mine. Something I forgot to mention about the set of Phase II 3 MT collets that I bought, was that the approximately $115 price was for the inch-sized round set (not any metrics or square, hex etc). The Phase II rotary tables and toolposts are good value for the money. I also have one of their RTs, and was completely impressed at how smoothly it operates, and the zero backlash in an entire revolution (after a little scraping). Enco has had the series 100 QCTP sets (include 5 tool holders) on sale almost continuously for over a year, priced at $90 for the piston style, and $170 for the wedge model. I made the mistake of buying the HF QCTP earlier, and it was a total POS. WB .......... metalworking projects www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html "Bill Schwab" wrote in message ... Thanks for taking the time. I think I read that the 8x36 machine will accept 5C collets, but need to check that. Still, I am not convinced I will go the extra money over it. Are you saying that either of the 8x36 lathes have metric screws? My reading and questioning suggests that they are imperial, but if you have specific information disputing that, it is worth another round of questions. Thanks, Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Wild_Bill wrote:
Bill, could you clear up a bit of confusion on my part? You have previously mentioned a more expensive lathe, and referred to it as a 8x36, and I assumed it was a typographic error. The 8x36" dimensions are compatible with a mill table travel. You're right - I'm cross-wiring the 8x36 mill that might be next (no hurry) with the 12x36 lathe. Sorry. Have you been referring to the 12x36" lathe model? That's the machine. Actually two different ones, one threaded spindle and belt driven, the other D1-4 and geared (a good bit more money). It has a #5 Morse taper in the spindle BTW, for the Enco model that's priced about $1,949 (Gap Bed Bench Lathe With Back Gear). I would expect a new set of MT #5 collets to be expensive. Good point. In looking at the recent flyer ad, I don't see that the specs/features for the 12x36 include a power cross feed. This model may have that feature, and some owners here on RCM should be able to provide more info about that model. I recall numerous 12x36 owners praising these machines. That is an excellent question. Both machines list a cross slide feed range, and my recollection is that it has power cross feed, but it is worth checking as it could explain some of the difference in price. The real hit is the sale brings the belt-driven machine more in line with what I am willing to shell out at the moment. I don't know that the other models you may be considering actually use metric feedscrews with inch dials, but it would be worth your time to ask an informed person from the company that sells the machine. The 9x20 model has inch screws and dials if they're the same as when I bought mine. I am told that the screws are imperial. Something I forgot to mention about the set of Phase II 3 MT collets that I bought, was that the approximately $115 price was for the inch-sized round set (not any metrics or square, hex etc). That seems reasonable. My goal is to not seriously under-buy, after which I would expect to ask lots of questions such as: "since I was dumb enough to buy X, what is cheapest way to accomplish Y" :) The Phase II rotary tables and toolposts are good value for the money. I also have one of their RTs, and was completely impressed at how smoothly it operates, and the zero backlash in an entire revolution (after a little scraping). Mine had a slight rough spot at one point in the rotation (275 degrees or so), but that appears to have eased with a little use. It still weeps some oil, but nothing like it did the first day in the vertical orientation. I check the sight glass before each session (and fill the ports of course), and it has maintained a respectable level. I probably just over-filled it the first time. Having done some real work on it now, I am very impressed. Enco has had the series 100 QCTP sets (include 5 tool holders) on sale almost continuously for over a year, priced at $90 for the piston style, and $170 for the wedge model. I made the mistake of buying the HF QCTP earlier, and it was a total POS. Some searching suggests that the wedge type is probably worth the money??? Bill |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Bill Schwab wrote:
Wild_Bill wrote: taper in the spindle BTW, for the Enco model that's priced about $1,949 (Gap Bed Bench Lathe With Back Gear). I would expect a new set of MT #5 collets to be expensive. Good point. Not such a good point. Sort of a moot point. As in, it really does not matter. Nobody would use Morse taper collets that size anyway! Think 5C collet adaptor! 5C collets are pretty easy to find, everywhere, and can be had in quality/price points ranging from poor/dirt cheap (lower grade Chinese or Indian), to Excellent/sold by the troy ounce (Hardinge). 5C are probably the easiest to get, but there are other collet formats that can be had that will handle larger diameters, if they are an issue. Cheers Trevor Jones |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:4wJ%i.5237$Ji6.4833@edtnps89... Bill Schwab wrote: Wild_Bill wrote: taper in the spindle BTW, for the Enco model that's priced about $1,949 (Gap Bed Bench Lathe With Back Gear). I would expect a new set of MT #5 collets to be expensive. Good point. Not such a good point. Sort of a moot point. As in, it really does not matter. Nobody would use Morse taper collets that size anyway! Think 5C collet adaptor! 5C collets are pretty easy to find, everywhere, and can be had in quality/price points ranging from poor/dirt cheap (lower grade Chinese or Indian), to Excellent/sold by the troy ounce (Hardinge). 5C are probably the easiest to get, but there are other collet formats that can be had that will handle larger diameters, if they are an issue. Cheers Trevor Jones One's options are greater than just a 5C adapter. Hardinge-Sjogren collet chucks are available in a multitude of collet types (or they used to be, dunno about today), including the J series, very similar to the 5C (longer), and available in greater size ranges, 1J, 2J and 3J, although the larger sizes may be limited to larger machines. Harold |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:4wJ%i.5237$Ji6.4833@edtnps89... Bill Schwab wrote: Wild_Bill wrote: taper in the spindle BTW, for the Enco model that's priced about $1,949 (Gap Bed Bench Lathe With Back Gear). I would expect a new set of MT #5 collets to be expensive. Good point. Not such a good point. Sort of a moot point. As in, it really does not matter. Nobody would use Morse taper collets that size anyway! Think 5C collet adaptor! 5C collets are pretty easy to find, everywhere, and can be had in quality/price points ranging from poor/dirt cheap (lower grade Chinese or Indian), to Excellent/sold by the troy ounce (Hardinge). 5C are probably the easiest to get, but there are other collet formats that can be had that will handle larger diameters, if they are an issue. Cheers Trevor Jones One's options are greater than just a 5C adapter. Hardinge-Sjogren collet chucks are available in a multitude of collet types (or they used to be, dunno about today), including the J series, very similar to the 5C (longer), and available in greater size ranges, 1J, 2J and 3J, although the larger sizes may be limited to larger machines. Harold I think that's what I said in the last line. :-) I sure wouldn't want to be around when the quote came in for a set of 5MT collets!! Cheers Trevor Jones |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:u_O%i.826$HH2.638@edtnps82... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:4wJ%i.5237$Ji6.4833@edtnps89... Bill Schwab wrote: Wild_Bill wrote: taper in the spindle BTW, for the Enco model that's priced about $1,949 (Gap Bed Bench Lathe With Back Gear). I would expect a new set of MT #5 collets to be expensive. Good point. Not such a good point. Sort of a moot point. As in, it really does not matter. Nobody would use Morse taper collets that size anyway! Think 5C collet adaptor! 5C collets are pretty easy to find, everywhere, and can be had in quality/price points ranging from poor/dirt cheap (lower grade Chinese or Indian), to Excellent/sold by the troy ounce (Hardinge). 5C are probably the easiest to get, but there are other collet formats that can be had that will handle larger diameters, if they are an issue. Cheers Trevor Jones One's options are greater than just a 5C adapter. Hardinge-Sjogren collet chucks are available in a multitude of collet types (or they used to be, dunno about today), including the J series, very similar to the 5C (longer), and available in greater size ranges, 1J, 2J and 3J, although the larger sizes may be limited to larger machines. Harold I think that's what I said in the last line. :-) Hey! Go easy on this old guy! :-) Yep---it appears you did, minus any specifics. I've used the 1J and 2J series, and recently sold a 3J setup, a part of an estate that I assisted in settling. Collet chuck had an L taper attachment. Sure was tempting to own, but I could see no way for my setup. I sure wouldn't want to be around when the quote came in for a set of 5MT collets!! I'm not convinced I'd want such a taper for collets, anyway. Collet tapers are typically chosen to be easy release. 5MT doesn't exactly qualify. I've operated more than one machine that had the 5C adapter for the headstock taper, however, so it's a great way to adapt to collets, at least for 1-1/8" capacity and smaller. Harold |
D1-4 spindle or $700?
Bill, I'd recommend asking a well-informed company representative to confirm
any published features or specs for any machine purchase. Enco, and others, have repeatedly printed incorrect specs for machines and accessories. An example is Enco catalogs/ads stated for years that the 9x20 lathe had splash lubrication in the headstock for the spindle bearings.. completely incorrect, as the bearings are just greased taper roller bearings in a dry headstock (not really a big deal, but it took a long time for them to drop that description). One experience was shared here in RCM concerning the center hole in a rotary table (or maybe a dividing head).. the printed specs were for the wrong taper. The range of sizes of lathes, and the various machine features you've described seem to span prices from about $900 to about $3000. During the wait-and-see and comparison of machine capabilities period, you may eventually find an opportunity for a sale price that also includes free shipping. For my hobby level use, with occassionally made-to-sell parts, the larger machines would be overkill (disregarding base model price), and require much more space, but also more expensive accessories. The 900+ pounds of the bigger machines would be manageable, but I wouldn't want to have to move one of those machines more than once, but if I needed to make big parts for profit, the 9x20 lathe would be a poor choice. I've often felt that I'd make more parts for numerous types of stuff that interests me, if I also had a little 7x10 or 7x12" lathe to use, in addition to my other 2 machines. Big piles of chips are a feeling of accomplishment, but if I just need a small piece of hardware (bushing, spacer, standoff, knurled nut etc), I could easily acomplish those small items without much effort at all.. pull up a chair, and have a finished part in a few minutes. While the price of these little hobby machines was hovering at less than $400 or so for several years, I saw one last week at the local TSC store for $500. I believe most users that have the piston style Phase II QCTPs are happy with them, although some HSM types will insist that the wedge style (or a true Aloris) are the only ones they would use. I think that $90 (for the series 100) seems almost too cheap, but they're made well, certainly many times more reliable than the HF model from India that I bought and tried to use. I have both styles of the P II series 100 posts, and the fit of the holders is very good on both of 'em. If you end up getting the 12" lathe, you might want to ask some owners of that model if a series 100, or the larger 200 series is better suited for a machine that size. Sometimes there are issues with the toolholders being positioned at the bottom of the post, to get the cutting edge of larger cutting tools positioned on the centerline of the workpiece. I suspect that some folks are happy with cheap, and that a cheap tool is better than a quality tool to some of them, even though the cheap tool is frustrating to use. At the other end of the spectrum are the ones that feel that the only tool they will ever own must be capable of lasting many lifetimes. If I were several decades younger, and was machining for my income, I would (and did) certainly have a different opinion about tools and the minimum level of quality and dependability, particularly when my wages/income were dependent upon reliability of tools I purchased. The P II RT that I have is the horizontal-only model (stand it up, and the oil runs out), but I'd be comfortable using it vertically for a short time, if I had to, after draining it. Enough of the lube would be clinging to the innards to provide an adequate amount of protection IMO. After all, when the table is locked into position, the oil isn't actually preventing any wear. For multiple parts, I'd probably just use the 5C spin index. BTW, I motorized my RT with an Oriental Motor gearhead motor, and it was fun to use it under the small mill head of my 3in1 combo machine. The adaptation wasn't very sophisticated.. as I just made a sprocket to replace the handwheel, and mounted the gearhead to a separate mounting plate that bolts to the table. The motor wasn't used for accurate positioning, just rotating (feed) the workpiece under an endmill. With an inexpensive 6" 4-jaw chuck from JTS in Ohio, the P II RT makes a fairly versatile setup that's rigid and accurate. WB .......... metalworking projects www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html "Bill Schwab" wrote in message ... Have you been referring to the 12x36" lathe model? That's the machine. Actually two different ones, one threaded spindle and belt driven, the other D1-4 and geared (a good bit more money). Enco has had the series 100 QCTP sets (include 5 tool holders) on sale almost continuously for over a year, priced at $90 for the piston style, and $170 for the wedge model. I made the mistake of buying the HF QCTP earlier, and it was a total POS. Some searching suggests that the wedge type is probably worth the money??? Bill |
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