Greetings, all,

Here's some interesting info about the ancient Andean-Mexican seagoing
trade, bringing into focus especially the importance of metalwork for
tracing these cultural links.

All the best,

Yuri.

=================


ANCIENT MARINERS: Strong evidence of Andean-Mexican seagoing trade as
early as 600 A.D. by David L. Chandler

The Boston Globe, August 14, 1995. Pp. 25-27.

Archeologists studying the ancients empires of Central and South
America have long noticed similarities in some pottery designs and
food crops and wondered whether mariners from the Andean coast traded
with their counterparts 2,000 miles to the north. Now, an MIT
researcher says she has strong evidence they did.

Sophisticated and unique metalworking techniques, developed in
South America as far as 1200 B.C., suddenly appeared in Western Mexico
in about 600 A.D. - without ever being seen anywhere in between. The
only reasonable explanation, according to archeologist Dorothy Hosler,
is seaborne trade.

As far back as the Spanish conquest it was clear that the South
American cultures had the capability for such trade. When Francisco
Pizarro approached Peru in 1527, he saw large sailing rafts traveling
along the coast. But until now, there was little evidence of how far
they travelled, or the fact that there was any significant contact
between the two great civilizations of that era, the Mesoamerican
(including the Mayans and other groups) to the north and the Andean
(including the Incas) in South America.

It took Hosler's innovative, detailed metallurgical analysis of
ancient bronze and copper artifacts to provide the convincing evidence
that this trade ranged over thousands of miles.

Hosler, an associate professor of archeology and ancient
technology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has spent
years studying the composition, design and metalworking technologies
used to make a variety of bells, ornaments and small tools found in
Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, and Western Mexico.

Centuries after their development in South America, metal objects
appeared suddenly on Mexico's west coast. But the absence of any
metal artifacts from that period in all of Central America in between,
or in the interior and east coast of Mexico, indicates that these
casting methods, alloys and designs could not have been exported via
overland trade.

"Her findings have been very important, I think, in the New World
picture," said Gordon Willey, professor emeritus of Mexico and Central
American, archeology at Harvard University. "What she has shown
without much doubt is that metallurgical technologies were diffused
from the south, probably carried by travelers on rafts."

"There has always been a lot of speculation on the relationship
between Mesoamerica and the cultures further south," Wiley added.
"But to pin anything down as tightly and specifically as this
metallurgical technology is very unusual."

The fact that the South American civilizations had coastal trade
and fishing routes is well known from the writings, and at least one
drawing, of 16th century European voyagers. They described oceangoing
balsawood sailing rafts, capable of carrying anywhere from a dozen to
40 people and laden with goods, plying the coasts of present Peru and
Ecuador. Some archeologists had speculated, on the basis of
similarities in pottery designs, that these South American marine
traders made it as far north as Mexico, but the evidence was ambiguous
because pottery-making was so universal at the time.

"The Mexican case is very interesting," Hosler said last week in
an interview at MIT, during a brief break from her fieldwork in
Mexico. "It's one of the few places where advanced civilization arose
without metallurgy.

"And then suddenly, around this area which was not a primary area
of state-level society" - that is, not part of one of the great
empires but rather a region of smaller chiefdoms - "metal artifacts
start to show up around 600 to 700 A.D."

At the time, she said, there was "nothing with respect to
metallurgy going on in eastern Mexico or Central America," where Mayan
civilization, among others, was in its heyday, whereas the peoples of
Peru, Ecuador and Colombia had thriving metallurgical traditions.

Unlike the use of metals elsewhere in the ancient world, where
the focus was usually on weapons and agricultural tools, much of the
emphasis of both the Mexican and Andean metallurgists was on
decorative and ceremonial objects such a bells and jewelry, and small
tools such as needles and tweezers.

That emphasis led them to develop metal alloys quite different
from those found in other areas. Their bronze, for example, appears to
have been formulated specifically for its color and sound qualities,
rather than for mechanical strength, Hosler found. Bronzes used for
ornamental bells and other items were formulated to give the
appearance of gold (by adding larger than necessary amounts of tin to
copper) or silver (by adding more arsenic than necessary to the
copper).

Among the extraordinary similarities Hosler found between metal
working in the two regions:

The use of the "lost wax" technique for casting distinctive
ceremonial bells, a method that allows greater control over the
thickness and sound properties. This involves carving the bell's
shape from beeswax, then casting a hard mold (sometimes of clay and
ash) around it. Molten metal poured into the mold melts away the wax
and assumes its shape inside the mold, which is broken away after the
metal hardens. Identical techniques and designs are found in Columbia
and Mexico.

-- The design and manufacturing methods for producing items such as
needles and tweezers out of hammered copper or bronze.

Distinctive methods, which Hosler describes as "very
idiosyncratic," such as the way a needle's eye is made by folding,
are found in both places. And unique designs of tweezers, used by men
to pluck beard hairs, also are found in both regions. In Mexico, the
tweezers became ceremonial objects, worn by priests as pendants.

"There's a whole constellation of artifact designs that were
common to both areas," Hosler says. "They were used the same way, and
the objects were fashioned the same way."

Hosler's detailed analysis of the metals themselves proved that
it was mainly the knowledge of metallurgical techniques, rather than
the metal objects themselves that was transported from the
civilizations to the south; virtually all the objects found in Mexico
were made from native Mexican ores.

"We know they weren't trading in ores," Hosler said,"because
Ecuadorian and Mexican ores are very different in their isotope
ratios. What seems to have been introduced was technological
know-how."

In order to have imparted such detailed technological knowledge,
she concludes, the visits must have been much longer and more
extensive than would have been needed simply to trade finished goods.

What motivated the far-flung trading? Hosler speculates that the
South American mariners may have been searching for a much prized
bright-orange seashell, the spondylous, that was used to make beads
and ornaments and for rain-making rituals.

The idea gets some support from Spanish records. Pizarro's chief
pilot, Bartolome Ruiz de Estrada, describes capturing off the
Ecuadorian coast a balsa raft carrying 20 men and trade goods that
included "tiaras, crowns, bands, tweezers and bells, all of this they
brought to exchange for some shells."

Another possible trade item was the hallucinogenic peyote cactus,
which is prevalent in Mexico and may have figured in religious
ceremonies among the South American people, where the use of
psychoactive substances was widespread.

The evidence for extensive trade could affect the whole picture
of how the great civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Andes developed,
said Hosler, whose analysis of her evidence is detailed in a book,
"The Sounds and Colors of Power," published by MIT Press this year.

"One of the aspects that's very interesting for archeologists,"
Hosler said, "is that we tend to think these two great civilizations"
- the Mesoamerican and the Andean - "grew without much influence from
one another... This is fairly unambiguous evidence that there was more
extensive interaction than was thought."

Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree.
Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State
University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the
evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at
all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other
than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'."

=======================

Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than
to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

Greetings, all,

Here's some interesting info about the ancient Andean-Mexican seagoing
trade, bringing into focus especially the importance of metalwork for
tracing these cultural links.

All the best,

Yuri.

=================

ANCIENT MARINERS: Strong evidence of Andean-Mexican seagoing trade as
early as 600 A.D. by David L. Chandler

The Boston Globe, August 14, 1995. Pp. 25-27.

Archeologists studying the ancients empires of Central and South
America have long noticed similarities in some pottery designs and
food crops and wondered whether mariners from the Andean coast traded
with their counterparts 2,000 miles to the north. Now, an MIT
researcher says she has strong evidence they did.

Sophisticated and unique metalworking techniques, developed in
South America as far as 1200 B.C., suddenly appeared in Western Mexico
in about 600 A.D. - without ever being seen anywhere in between. The
only reasonable explanation, according to archeologist Dorothy Hosler,
is seaborne trade.

As far back as the Spanish conquest it was clear that the South
American cultures had the capability for such trade. When Francisco
Pizarro approached Peru in 1527, he saw large sailing rafts traveling
along the coast. But until now, there was little evidence of how far
they travelled, or the fact that there was any significant contact
between the two great civilizations of that era, the Mesoamerican
(including the Mayans and other groups) to the north and the Andean
(including the Incas) in South America.

It took Hosler's innovative, detailed metallurgical analysis of
ancient bronze and copper artifacts to provide the convincing evidence
that this trade ranged over thousands of miles.

Hosler, an associate professor of archeology and ancient
technology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has spent
years studying the composition, design and metalworking technologies
used to make a variety of bells, ornaments and small tools found in
Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, and Western Mexico.

Centuries after their development in South America, metal objects
appeared suddenly on Mexico's west coast. But the absence of any
metal artifacts from that period in all of Central America in between,
or in the interior and east coast of Mexico, indicates that these
casting methods, alloys and designs could not have been exported via
overland trade.

"Her findings have been very important, I think, in the New World
picture," said Gordon Willey, professor emeritus of Mexico and Central
American, archeology at Harvard University. "What she has shown
without much doubt is that metallurgical technologies were diffused
from the south, probably carried by travelers on rafts."

"There has always been a lot of speculation on the relationship
between Mesoamerica and the cultures further south," Wiley added.
"But to pin anything down as tightly and specifically as this
metallurgical technology is very unusual."

The fact that the South American civilizations had coastal trade
and fishing routes is well known from the writings, and at least one
drawing, of 16th century European voyagers. They described oceangoing
balsawood sailing rafts, capable of carrying anywhere from a dozen to
40 people and laden with goods, plying the coasts of present Peru and
Ecuador. Some archeologists had speculated, on the basis of
similarities in pottery designs, that these South American marine
traders made it as far north as Mexico, but the evidence was ambiguous
because pottery-making was so universal at the time.

"The Mexican case is very interesting," Hosler said last week in
an interview at MIT, during a brief break from her fieldwork in
Mexico. "It's one of the few places where advanced civilization arose
without metallurgy.

"And then suddenly, around this area which was not a primary area
of state-level society" - that is, not part of one of the great
empires but rather a region of smaller chiefdoms - "metal artifacts
start to show up around 600 to 700 A.D."

At the time, she said, there was "nothing with respect to
metallurgy going on in eastern Mexico or Central America," where Mayan
civilization, among others, was in its heyday, whereas the peoples of
Peru, Ecuador and Colombia had thriving metallurgical traditions.

Unlike the use of metals elsewhere in the ancient world, where
the focus was usually on weapons and agricultural tools, much of the
emphasis of both the Mexican and Andean metallurgists was on
decorative and ceremonial objects such a bells and jewelry, and small
tools such as needles and tweezers.

That emphasis led them to develop metal alloys quite different
from those found in other areas. Their bronze, for example, appears to
have been formulated specifically for its color and sound qualities,
rather than for mechanical strength, Hosler found. Bronzes used for
ornamental bells and other items were formulated to give the
appearance of gold (by adding larger than necessary amounts of tin to
copper) or silver (by adding more arsenic than necessary to the
copper).

Among the extraordinary similarities Hosler found between metal
working in the two regions:

The use of the "lost wax" technique for casting distinctive
ceremonial bells, a method that allows greater control over the
thickness and sound properties. This involves carving the bell's
shape from beeswax, then casting a hard mold (sometimes of clay and
ash) around it. Molten metal poured into the mold melts away the wax
and assumes its shape inside the mold, which is broken away after the
metal hardens. Identical techniques and designs are found in Columbia
and Mexico.

-- The design and manufacturing methods for producing items such as
needles and tweezers out of hammered copper or bronze.

Distinctive methods, which Hosler describes as "very
idiosyncratic," such as the way a needle's eye is made by folding,
are found in both places. And unique designs of tweezers, used by men
to pluck beard hairs, also are found in both regions. In Mexico, the
tweezers became ceremonial objects, worn by priests as pendants.

"There's a whole constellation of artifact designs that were
common to both areas," Hosler says. "They were used the same way, and
the objects were fashioned the same way."

Hosler's detailed analysis of the metals themselves proved that
it was mainly the knowledge of metallurgical techniques, rather than
the metal objects themselves that was transported from the
civilizations to the south; virtually all the objects found in Mexico
were made from native Mexican ores.

"We know they weren't trading in ores," Hosler said,"because
Ecuadorian and Mexican ores are very different in their isotope
ratios. What seems to have been introduced was technological
know-how."

In order to have imparted such detailed technological knowledge,
she concludes, the visits must have been much longer and more
extensive than would have been needed simply to trade finished goods.

What motivated the far-flung trading? Hosler speculates that the
South American mariners may have been searching for a much prized
bright-orange seashell, the spondylous, that was used to make beads
and ornaments and for rain-making rituals.

The idea gets some support from Spanish records. Pizarro's chief
pilot, Bartolome Ruiz de Estrada, describes capturing off the
Ecuadorian coast a balsa raft carrying 20 men and trade goods that
included "tiaras, crowns, bands, tweezers and bells, all of this they
brought to exchange for some shells."

Another possible trade item was the hallucinogenic peyote cactus,
which is prevalent in Mexico and may have figured in religious
ceremonies among the South American people, where the use of
psychoactive substances was widespread.

The evidence for extensive trade could affect the whole picture
of how the great civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Andes developed,
said Hosler, whose analysis of her evidence is detailed in a book,
"The Sounds and Colors of Power," published by MIT Press this year.

"One of the aspects that's very interesting for archeologists,"
Hosler said, "is that we tend to think these two great civilizations"
- the Mesoamerican and the Andean - "grew without much influence from
one another... This is fairly unambiguous evidence that there was more
extensive interaction than was thought."

Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree.
Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State
University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the
evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at
all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other
than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'."


Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?

http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm

--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Seppo Renfors wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

snip

Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree.
Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State
University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the
evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at
all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other
than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'."



Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?

http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm


Seppo,

What do you find interesting in that web site? It reiterates,
without a shred of evidence and no references, the story of vast
amounts of copper being mined by Europeans ca. 3000 BC-1250 BC,
and shipped to Europe from the mines in the UP of Michigan. The
web site's 'History' is right out of some of the more
speculative Mormon views of history and North American
archaeology, and has holes in it large enough to drive a lorry
train through.

So, what do you find interesting and applicable to the present
topic in that web page?

Tom McDonald

Tom McDonald wrote in message ...
Seppo Renfors wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

snip

Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree.
Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State
University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the
evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at
all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other
than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'."



Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?

http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm


Seppo,

What do you find interesting in that web site? It reiterates,
without a shred of evidence and no references, the story of vast
amounts of copper being mined by Europeans ca. 3000 BC-1250 BC,
and shipped to Europe from the mines in the UP of Michigan. The
web site's 'History' is right out of some of the more
speculative Mormon views of history and North American
archaeology, and has holes in it large enough to drive a lorry
train through.

So, what do you find interesting and applicable to the present
topic in that web page?

Were such a claim to have any basis I'd expect there to be a port from
where this copper trade (millions of tons) ? was shipped.. with sunken
ships
And the DNA of the visiting sailors, intermarraige and loan words.
Pottery, tools, buildings, introduction of art, all missing.
The roads used to carry the copper from the mines to the smelters and
to the port and the accomodation/villages along the route.
The growing of and evidence of European crops.
Local Folk lore recording such industry....


The claims in the URL are at leasy lauughable

|| Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree.
|| Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State
|| University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the
|| evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at
|| all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other
|| than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'."
||
||
||
|| Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?
||
|| http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm
||
||
|| Seppo,
||
|| What do you find interesting in that web site? It reiterates,
|| without a shred of evidence and no references, the story of vast
|| amounts of copper being mined by Europeans ca. 3000 BC-1250 BC,
|| and shipped to Europe from the mines in the UP of Michigan. The
|| web site's 'History' is right out of some of the more
|| speculative Mormon views of history and North American
|| archaeology, and has holes in it large enough to drive a lorry
|| train through.
||
|| So, what do you find interesting and applicable to the present
|| topic in that web page?
||
||Were such a claim to have any basis I'd expect there to be a port from
||where this copper trade (millions of tons) ? was shipped.. with sunken
||ships
||And the DNA of the visiting sailors, intermarraige and loan words.
||Pottery, tools, buildings, introduction of art, all missing.
||The roads used to carry the copper from the mines to the smelters and
||to the port and the accomodation/villages along the route.

Levitation, just as the Egytians moved the blocks for the pyramids, and the
Easter Islanders moved their statuary. Some guy in Florida built a coral castle
in the 1920s using the "technology". Saw it on TV

G
Texas Parts Guy

Tom McDonald wrote:

Seppo Renfors wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

snip

Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree.
Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State
University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the
evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at
all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other
than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'."



Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?

http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm


Seppo,

What do you find interesting in that web site? It reiterates,
without a shred of evidence and no references,

Well..... that alone should have been very attractive to you! I don't
really know why you are asking me, as you are not really interested in
my opinion - merely an opportunity to denigrate what ever that opinion
might be - irrespective of what it might be. You see, you have already
anticipated exactly that and started the denigration even though you
don't know WHY I posted that URL! So your question is redundant and
needs no answer.

the story of vast
amounts of copper being mined by Europeans ca. 3000 BC-1250 BC,
and shipped to Europe from the mines in the UP of Michigan.

Oh but that site tells of far more than merely that!!

The
web site's 'History' is right out of some of the more
speculative Mormon views of history and North American
archaeology, and has holes in it large enough to drive a lorry
train through.

Is "Mormon" a verboten religion in your mind as you hold that LABEL
up? It is indeed true that "North American archaeology" dogma has
"holes in it large enough to drive a lorry train through" (whatever a
"lorry train" might be). There is a will to retain the holes as well -
you know to protect the establishment dogma.

So, what do you find interesting and applicable to the present
topic in that web page?

You can't tell? How about some key words like "metallurgy" + "mining"
+ "Gulf of Mexico" + "Acapulco" + "cast copper" + "Cahokia" + "copper
trade" + missing copper.

Still, if you looked under the heading "Gallery" you might see
something interesting.


--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Seppo Renfors wrote:


Tom McDonald wrote:

Seppo Renfors wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

snip

Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree.
Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State
University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the
evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at
all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other
than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'."



Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?

http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm


Seppo,

What do you find interesting in that web site? It reiterates,
without a shred of evidence and no references,


Well..... that alone should have been very attractive to you! I don't
really know why you are asking me, as you are not really interested in
my opinion - merely an opportunity to denigrate what ever that opinion
might be - irrespective of what it might be. You see, you have already
anticipated exactly that and started the denigration even though you
don't know WHY I posted that URL! So your question is redundant and
needs no answer.

Seppo,

You are funny. Don't ever change.

Tom McDonald



the story of vast
amounts of copper being mined by Europeans ca. 3000 BC-1250 BC,
and shipped to Europe from the mines in the UP of Michigan.


Oh but that site tells of far more than merely that!!


The
web site's 'History' is right out of some of the more
speculative Mormon views of history and North American
archaeology, and has holes in it large enough to drive a lorry
train through.


Is "Mormon" a verboten religion in your mind as you hold that LABEL
up? It is indeed true that "North American archaeology" dogma has
"holes in it large enough to drive a lorry train through" (whatever a
"lorry train" might be). There is a will to retain the holes as well -
you know to protect the establishment dogma.


So, what do you find interesting and applicable to the present
topic in that web page?


You can't tell? How about some key words like "metallurgy" + "mining"
+ "Gulf of Mexico" + "Acapulco" + "cast copper" + "Cahokia" + "copper
trade" + missing copper.

Still, if you looked under the heading "Gallery" you might see
something interesting.

All these years and still nothing substantive so far as I know out of Rock
Lake.

This 6 year old web page from a definitely non-establishment site is
interesting:

http://www.mysteriousworld.com/Journ...inter/Aztalan/

Doug

|| Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?
||
|| http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm
||
||
|| Seppo,

Seppo

I found it very interesting.
Thanks for posting it.
Texas Parts Guy

Rex B wrote:

|| Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?
||
|| http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm
||
||
|| Seppo,

Seppo

I found it very interesting.
Thanks for posting it.
Texas Parts Guy

No problems - have a look at the link by Doug as well.

--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:42:40 GMT, Seppo Renfors
wrote:



Tom McDonald wrote:

Seppo Renfors wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

snip

Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree.
Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State
University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the
evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at
all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other
than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'."



Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?

http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm


Seppo,

What do you find interesting in that web site? It reiterates,
without a shred of evidence and no references,

Well..... that alone should have been very attractive to you! I don't
really know why you are asking me, as you are not really interested in
my opinion - merely an opportunity to denigrate what ever that opinion
might be - irrespective of what it might be. You see, you have already
anticipated exactly that and started the denigration even though you
don't know WHY I posted that URL! So your question is redundant and
needs no answer.

the story of vast
amounts of copper being mined by Europeans ca. 3000 BC-1250 BC,
and shipped to Europe from the mines in the UP of Michigan.

Oh but that site tells of far more than merely that!!

The
web site's 'History' is right out of some of the more
speculative Mormon views of history and North American
archaeology, and has holes in it large enough to drive a lorry
train through.

Is "Mormon" a verboten religion in your mind as you hold that LABEL
up? It is indeed true that "North American archaeology" dogma has
"holes in it large enough to drive a lorry train through" (whatever a
"lorry train" might be). There is a will to retain the holes as well -
you know to protect the establishment dogma.

So, what do you find interesting and applicable to the present
topic in that web page?

You can't tell? How about some key words like "metallurgy" + "mining"
+ "Gulf of Mexico" + "Acapulco" + "cast copper" + "Cahokia" + "copper
trade" + missing copper.

Still, if you looked under the heading "Gallery" you might see
something interesting.

You should have posted http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/gallery.htm to
begin with.



Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens wrote:

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:42:40 GMT, Seppo Renfors
wrote:



Tom McDonald wrote:

Seppo Renfors wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

snip

Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree.
Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State
University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the
evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at
all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other
than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'."



Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?

http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm


Seppo,

What do you find interesting in that web site? It reiterates,
without a shred of evidence and no references,

Well..... that alone should have been very attractive to you! I don't
really know why you are asking me, as you are not really interested in
my opinion - merely an opportunity to denigrate what ever that opinion
might be - irrespective of what it might be. You see, you have already
anticipated exactly that and started the denigration even though you
don't know WHY I posted that URL! So your question is redundant and
needs no answer.


the story of vast
amounts of copper being mined by Europeans ca. 3000 BC-1250 BC,
and shipped to Europe from the mines in the UP of Michigan.

Oh but that site tells of far more than merely that!!


The
web site's 'History' is right out of some of the more
speculative Mormon views of history and North American
archaeology, and has holes in it large enough to drive a lorry
train through.

Is "Mormon" a verboten religion in your mind as you hold that LABEL
up? It is indeed true that "North American archaeology" dogma has
"holes in it large enough to drive a lorry train through" (whatever a
"lorry train" might be). There is a will to retain the holes as well -
you know to protect the establishment dogma.


So, what do you find interesting and applicable to the present
topic in that web page?

You can't tell? How about some key words like "metallurgy" + "mining"
+ "Gulf of Mexico" + "Acapulco" + "cast copper" + "Cahokia" + "copper
trade" + missing copper.

Still, if you looked under the heading "Gallery" you might see
something interesting.


You should have posted http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/gallery.htm to
begin with.

Eric,

The Rock Lake stuff is interesting, but doesn't relate to the
issue of movement of copper in the New World. The link he
posted does. It is just that that url is full of recycled
claims without any evidence, and has been strongly challenged
without successful rebuttal. IMHO. Of course, Seppo could have
attempted to support that info, but chose not to.

Therefore, since Seppo didn't want to explicate his views on
the topic, he changed the topic. The second url is a head-fake.

Tom McDonald

Eric Stevens wrote:

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:42:40 GMT, Seppo Renfors
wrote:



Tom McDonald wrote:

Seppo Renfors wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

snip

Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree.
Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State
University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the
evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at
all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other
than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'."



Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?

http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm


Seppo,

What do you find interesting in that web site? It reiterates,
without a shred of evidence and no references,

Well..... that alone should have been very attractive to you! I don't
really know why you are asking me, as you are not really interested in
my opinion - merely an opportunity to denigrate what ever that opinion
might be - irrespective of what it might be. You see, you have already
anticipated exactly that and started the denigration even though you
don't know WHY I posted that URL! So your question is redundant and
needs no answer.

the story of vast
amounts of copper being mined by Europeans ca. 3000 BC-1250 BC,
and shipped to Europe from the mines in the UP of Michigan.

Oh but that site tells of far more than merely that!!

The
web site's 'History' is right out of some of the more
speculative Mormon views of history and North American
archaeology, and has holes in it large enough to drive a lorry
train through.

Is "Mormon" a verboten religion in your mind as you hold that LABEL
up? It is indeed true that "North American archaeology" dogma has
"holes in it large enough to drive a lorry train through" (whatever a
"lorry train" might be). There is a will to retain the holes as well -
you know to protect the establishment dogma.

So, what do you find interesting and applicable to the present
topic in that web page?

You can't tell? How about some key words like "metallurgy" + "mining"
+ "Gulf of Mexico" + "Acapulco" + "cast copper" + "Cahokia" + "copper
trade" + missing copper.

Still, if you looked under the heading "Gallery" you might see
something interesting.

You should have posted http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/gallery.htm to
begin with.

You mean to say all that history in the page I pointed to as a
starting point - is not worth looking at - or what is there to be
afraid of on that page?

Whatever you might think about their theories, there is one thing that
is particularly interesting there - the claimed hiatus of mining
between 1200 BC and 900 AD. Didn't you see that?

--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Seppo Renfors wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

Greetings, all,

Here's some interesting info about the ancient Andean-Mexican seagoing
trade, bringing into focus especially the importance of metalwork for
tracing these cultural links.

All the best,

Yuri.

=================

ANCIENT MARINERS: Strong evidence of Andean-Mexican seagoing trade as
early as 600 A.D. by David L. Chandler

The Boston Globe, August 14, 1995. Pp. 25-27.

Archeologists studying the ancients empires of Central and South
America have long noticed similarities in some pottery designs and
food crops and wondered whether mariners from the Andean coast traded
with their counterparts 2,000 miles to the north. Now, an MIT
researcher says she has strong evidence they did.

[snip]

Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?

http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm

Let's see what we find there, Seppo.

"THE LOST PYRAMIDS OF ROCK LAKE"

"The group acquires through personal funds a 28ft. research
vessel the - R.V. TYRANENA to facilitate in the quest. ...
Aerial photography captured many new features in the water
and on land. ... acquires RV Tyranena II ..."

Hmm... these folks have got ships, planes, looking for some
underwater pyramids in a Wisconsin lake...

I think they should launch their own submarine next --
that'll find them pyramids in no time!

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku -=O=-
Toronto

For every credibility gap, there is a gullibility fill.

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

Seppo Renfors wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

Greetings, all,

Here's some interesting info about the ancient Andean-Mexican seagoing
trade, bringing into focus especially the importance of metalwork for
tracing these cultural links.

All the best,

Yuri.

=================

ANCIENT MARINERS: Strong evidence of Andean-Mexican seagoing trade as
early as 600 A.D. by David L. Chandler

The Boston Globe, August 14, 1995. Pp. 25-27.

Archeologists studying the ancients empires of Central and South
America have long noticed similarities in some pottery designs and
food crops and wondered whether mariners from the Andean coast traded
with their counterparts 2,000 miles to the north. Now, an MIT
researcher says she has strong evidence they did.

[snip]

Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?

http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm

Let's see what we find there, Seppo.

"THE LOST PYRAMIDS OF ROCK LAKE"

"The group acquires through personal funds a 28ft. research
vessel the - R.V. TYRANENA to facilitate in the quest. ...
Aerial photography captured many new features in the water
and on land. ... acquires RV Tyranena II ..."

Hmm... these folks have got ships, planes, looking for some
underwater pyramids in a Wisconsin lake...

I think they should launch their own submarine next --
that'll find them pyramids in no time!

Nothing wrong with that. Here we had a plane fly over for weeks in a
grid pattern, searching for minerals underground! They have already
used sonar and video. Sonar is a fairly common tool for underwater
research - side scan sonar is fairly sophisticated.

2002
"RLRS as team does more sonar side scan work to recapture correct
DGPS (Differential GPS) readings that were faulty due to satellite
equipment linkup problems on some targets. Additional underwater video
work may resume with ROV & Divers later on in the year for Rock Lake
video documentary."

I have heard about ancient trade routs down to Mexico having existed
some time ago from elsewhere. If so, then what is there to prevent
copper having been traded along the trade routs too? If it did go down
to South America where extensive trade networks did exist, then the
"missing copper" may have a partial answer at least.

--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------