Susan has had a recent very unhappy experience with a seller on eBay. She
received an art glass item that was represented as being in good condition,
with no repairs, but is has, indeed, been repaired, and it is VERY
noticeable.
She even sent an email asking specifically if the piece had any issues with
which we should be concerned. The wife sent an email stating "There are no
chips, cracks, repairs or damage whatsoever."

Several photographs of the item were shown in the listing, each carefully
composed so as to not show the repaired area. The seller maintains that
it is not a repair, but an inclusion, but a certified and accredited
appraiser doesn't seem to agree with the seller, nor do we. It is more than
obvious that the area around the glass has been altered from the original
acid etched finish. This is not a two bit item, she paid almost $1,200 for
it, and we are not wealthy people. She affords such a purchase only on rare
occasion.

The seller has been most uncooperative, so much so that eBay has awarded
Susan $175 for the screw up by the seller and failure to make good on the
non-disclosure. All we ever asked of the seller was to return 100% of
our money and pay for the return of the item, but they (husband and wife
running a business) refused. We now assume they intentionally mislead us
in the hopes of fetching a premium price for the item, for anyone aware of
the area in question would not pay what the item might be worth if it was in
pristine condition. Art glass is profoundly effected by condition. Small
chips or scratches have a serious effect on value, often a 90% reduction.

At this point we intend to take them to court. Our big problem is they are
on the right hand side of the country, and we are on the left hand side.

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making a
decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your debt.

Many thanks,

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

At this point we intend to take them to court. Our big problem is
they are on the right hand side of the country, and we are on the left
hand side.

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in
making a decision in how to pursue this matter?

I am not a lawyer, but I have hired plenty of them and I can tell you what
the best advice on this would be. A $1200 case is far too small for actual
litigation, and certainly not in a distant state. A "love letter" from
your lawyer might work, but not likely. Small claims might work but it is
too far away and it will cost you more in stomach lining than you will
recover. You can earn new money faster than you can recover this lost
money. So you have to write this off and get on with your life.

See my tale of being an eBay fraud victim:

http://www.truetex.com/ebayfraud.htm

Sounds like you already got the small eBay "buyer protection" settlement.

How did you pay them.... check or credit card.

I presume you are aware that most charge cards will give you financial
relief and charge the amount back to the vendor.

Good Luck

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Snippage of sad, all-to-common tale of eBay fraud

At this point we intend to take them to court. Our big problem is they are
on the right hand side of the country, and we are on the left hand side.

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making a
decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your debt.

Many thanks,

Harold



What is the seller's home state? Some states have consumer protection
agencies, sometimes under the state's Attorney General. If the seller
has a history of deception, a consumer protection agency may be interested.

Eventually, some lawyer will figure out a way to make a buck or two from
eBay fraud. He could sell his service on eBay, with a reserve, hire
another paralegal or two....

But he would need to be licensed to practice in the seller's home state,
more than likely. I've considered actions a couple of times after
being screwed by eBay sellers. Winning a judgment would be a piece of
cake. Collecting is always a killer.

Dale Scroggins, Esq. (Ret.)
(Aren't there any other lawyers here?)

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
snip------

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making
a
decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your
debt.

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint through
the AG's office in Washington, to which the seller responded how he had done
nothing wrong and how rude we were to dispute his non-disclosure. He went
on to blow his horn about the perfect record he has with the BBB in Florida.
Not anymore, he doesn't! And thanks for the idea, Michael Myers of Myers
Fine Arts. For those of you that are inclined to bid on art and other
offerings on eBay, be careful of his listings. He appears to be able to not
disclose those little things that can kill value, leaving the buyer in a
poor position. As soon as we get past this complaint, assuming he doesn't
do the right thing and make a proper settlement, our next move will be to
file fraud charges against him through the USPS.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have filing a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him. If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells, so it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.

Beyond that, we have a novel idea on how to expose him to almost everyone
that will be looking at his listings, and it will be perfectly legal. We'll
be sure to let you know when it's happening. I think you'll enjoy it!
Could prove costly for him, considering it will coincide with any of his
future listings, time and again, so each and every auction is accompanied by
a refresher for his prospective buyers about his potential for
non-disclosure. Any of us that have ever sold on eBay realize that if only
a few look and bid, you generally have to settle for a much lower price for
your goods. You be sure to enjoy those stolen dollars, Michael.

Harold

You might consider placing liens on any real property
( house, car, bussines, Etc. ) it will cost you little or
nothing to file and he will have to settle with you when
he wants to sell any major asset or hire a lawer to
vacate the lien which will cost him money either way.
In addition liens can show up on credit reports and
be a big problem for him if he ever needs credit.

Best Regards
Tom.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have filing
a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him.
If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells, so
it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no
problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.


Be careful on advising other bidders. eBay has a rule about "interfering
with an auction" under which they can cancel your User ID. Might want to
setup another one to do the advising. I went through my own little eBay
adventure when I bought the CD version of the Machinery Handbook and some
jackass sends me a pirated copy he burned in his PC. I can't for the life
of me figure out how a company less than 10 years old can become such a
rule-bound bureaucracy.

Steve.


Steve.

In article ,
Richard J Kinch wrote:

I am not a lawyer, but I have hired plenty of them and I can tell you what
the best advice on this would be. A $1200 case is far too small for actual
litigation, and certainly not in a distant state. A "love letter" from
your lawyer might work, but not likely. Small claims might work but it is
too far away and it will cost you more in stomach lining than you will
recover. You can earn new money faster than you can recover this lost
money. So you have to write this off and get on with your life.

All very true. Have you tried Judge Judy, she can handle up to $5000
and the case might make good TV.

--
free men own guns - slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote in message
...
Susan has had a recent very unhappy experience with a seller on eBay.
She
received an art glass item that was represented as being in good
condition,
with no repairs, but is has, indeed, been repaired, and it is VERY
noticeable.

[ Woe snipped ]

Might be worth reposting this on alt.marketing.online.ebay, Harold.

Especially if your "idea" works.

"Hell hath no fury..." I can hardly wait to hear about your revenge, and
you have my best wishes. Nothing I hate worse than a con. Get'im! Keep us
informed, it will help us all deal with unscrupulous people.
--
There are only 10 kinds of people...Those that understand binary and
those that don't.


"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
snip------

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in
making
a
decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your
debt.

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint
through
the AG's office in Washington, to which the seller responded how he had
done
nothing wrong and how rude we were to dispute his non-disclosure. He
went
on to blow his horn about the perfect record he has with the BBB in
Florida.
Not anymore, he doesn't! And thanks for the idea, Michael Myers of
Myers
Fine Arts. For those of you that are inclined to bid on art and other
offerings on eBay, be careful of his listings. He appears to be able to
not
disclose those little things that can kill value, leaving the buyer in a
poor position. As soon as we get past this complaint, assuming he doesn't
do the right thing and make a proper settlement, our next move will be to
file fraud charges against him through the USPS.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have filing
a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him.
If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells, so
it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no
problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.

Beyond that, we have a novel idea on how to expose him to almost everyone
that will be looking at his listings, and it will be perfectly legal.
We'll
be sure to let you know when it's happening. I think you'll enjoy it!
Could prove costly for him, considering it will coincide with any of his
future listings, time and again, so each and every auction is accompanied
by
a refresher for his prospective buyers about his potential for
non-disclosure. Any of us that have ever sold on eBay realize that if
only
a few look and bid, you generally have to settle for a much lower price
for
your goods. You be sure to enjoy those stolen dollars, Michael.

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint through
the AG's office in Washington,

Another approach is contact the postmaster in his state. If the
mails were used at any point, this would be mail fraud. Those
folks are relentless - it may take several months but the mills
of the gods grind exceeding fine.

We even had the postal service follow up after the first letter
to them. The vendor (non-ebay related) had still not resolved
the matter so when the second go-around happened it must have
been much more unpleasant for them as they ponied up straight
away.

Keep *all* your correspondence, do it all by mail, and send the
stuff to your seller 'return recipt requested.'

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

It would be interesting to me to see what, if any, real actions can be taken
that provide any fruits.

I had a related experience with an outfit called "cyclone motors" for my CNC
mill/drill project. I have finally received most of the equipment, literally
all that he can deliver, and have to leave it at that.

My neighbor's situation is on topic as well. He purchased some furniture
from Pinecraft here in St. Louis Park, as he and I both believe in trying to
give the local business the shot. Paid for up front. Never delivered. This
was approximately a year ago. He went to court, won a judgement. Done deal?
Hardly. This guy knows how to play. He's even been featured on the local TV
channel 5 Investigates. Another lady, with the same sad story. He gave the
same song and dance, some bull about "minimum orders". It was never clear,
even after promises on TV that he came through for her, and definately has
not come through with my good friend & neighbor. Once the judgement was
handed down, you have to fill out forms of discovery (where does he bank?)
of course it's an empty account. He can have the sheriff's office sieze his
car, but it will cost $500 to do that, that might be recoverable. He can
have the sheriff come in and sieze the cash drawer, but how much will be in
the till? Frankly, I'd rather picket the guy.

It just seems a shame that the real, true & clear victims have no real
recourse. Something is broken.

Best of luck.

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
Susan has had a recent very unhappy experience with a seller on eBay. She
received an art glass item that was represented as being in good condition,
with no repairs, but is has, indeed, been repaired, and it is VERY
noticeable.
She even sent an email asking specifically if the piece had any issues with
which we should be concerned. The wife sent an email stating "There are no
chips, cracks, repairs or damage whatsoever."

Several photographs of the item were shown in the listing, each carefully
composed so as to not show the repaired area. The seller maintains that
it is not a repair, but an inclusion, but a certified and accredited
appraiser doesn't seem to agree with the seller, nor do we. It is more than
obvious that the area around the glass has been altered from the original
acid etched finish. This is not a two bit item, she paid almost $1,200 for
it, and we are not wealthy people. She affords such a purchase only on rare
occasion.

The seller has been most uncooperative, so much so that eBay has awarded
Susan $175 for the screw up by the seller and failure to make good on the
non-disclosure. All we ever asked of the seller was to return 100% of
our money and pay for the return of the item, but they (husband and wife
running a business) refused. We now assume they intentionally mislead us
in the hopes of fetching a premium price for the item, for anyone aware of
the area in question would not pay what the item might be worth if it was in
pristine condition. Art glass is profoundly effected by condition. Small
chips or scratches have a serious effect on value, often a 90% reduction.

At this point we intend to take them to court. Our big problem is they are
on the right hand side of the country, and we are on the left hand side.

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making a
decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your debt.

You're nuts. Forget lawyers! The only satifaction you could possibly
get is to know that they went through more pain than you would, and that
would only be true if you were rich. You'll never get a penny back, in
most cases like this, if you involve lawyers. The fees would add up to
many thousands of $ to prosecute a case like this.

Did you send payment through the mails? If so, get on the USPS web site
(www.usps.gov), go to the inspectors web page and download and print the
mail fraud complaint form. Fill it out explaining as clearly as possible
what the fraudulent acts were, when you sent payment, etc., and send it in.
You will get some response fairly quickly telling you that an investigation
is in progress, and then you may actually have a pleasant surprise in the
mail. The inspectors have one great big atom bomb at their disposal, which
is a denial of mail service! (Well, in really egregious cases of multiple
fraud, they can also arrest and prosecute the perps, but that won't apply
unless these guys do it on a massive scale.) But, any seller who lives by
checks coming in the mail absolutely goes white when they talk about shutting
down their ability to receive mail! Scum like this often will only accept
money orders, and if a USPS MO was used, then the post office has their
signature on record somewhere, which also helps the investigation. Give
the MO serial # in the complaint.

If you sent payment through a credit card, you can make a complaint, and may
be able to get the charge reversed.

Be sure to download and print out any auction pages from eBay before they
disappear, to document what they represented the item as.

Jon

I hate to just jump on your misery, but why on earth are you buying art
glass on ebay?!!

The slightest chip or scratch can completely trash the value.
You have to be able to personally eyeball that stuff, to come up with a
price.
Even if the seller isn't a scumbag, it would be really easy to get screwed.

This has long been one of the areas, that I felt ebay was the worst choice
for shopping.

Paul K. Dickman




Harold & Susan Vordos wrote in message ...
Susan has had a recent very unhappy experience with a seller on eBay. She
received an art glass item that was represented as being in good condition,
with no repairs, but is has, indeed, been repaired, and it is VERY
noticeable.

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
snip------


Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making


a


decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your


debt.

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint through
the AG's office in Washington, to which the seller responded how he had done
nothing wrong and how rude we were to dispute his non-disclosure. He went
on to blow his horn about the perfect record he has with the BBB in Florida.
Not anymore, he doesn't! And thanks for the idea, Michael Myers of Myers
Fine Arts. For those of you that are inclined to bid on art and other
offerings on eBay, be careful of his listings. He appears to be able to not
disclose those little things that can kill value, leaving the buyer in a
poor position. As soon as we get past this complaint, assuming he doesn't
do the right thing and make a proper settlement, our next move will be to
file fraud charges against him through the USPS.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have filing a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him. If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells, so it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.

Beyond that, we have a novel idea on how to expose him to almost everyone
that will be looking at his listings, and it will be perfectly legal. We'll
be sure to let you know when it's happening. I think you'll enjoy it!
Could prove costly for him, considering it will coincide with any of his
future listings, time and again, so each and every auction is accompanied by
a refresher for his prospective buyers about his potential for
non-disclosure. Any of us that have ever sold on eBay realize that if only
a few look and bid, you generally have to settle for a much lower price for
your goods. You be sure to enjoy those stolen dollars, Michael.

Harold




Be sure to post your experiences on the newsgroup a.m.o.ebay

Don't give up! But don't let it absorb too much of your energies, it
isn't worth it to bring yourself closer to his level.

Perhaps someone in the group who's in the swindler's home state would be
willing to assist you somehow. If it were in Red Sox territory I sure
would be willing to help.

What goes around doth come around, albeit it sometimes takes a very long
time.

My case in point, and somewhat OT since you mentioned lawyers:

Some thirty years ago my first SWMBO decided after ten years of being
married to me that she'd rather be with a guy who moved around in more
exciting circles than I did. She dumped me for one of our neighborhood
friends, a lawyer, who did similarly to his spouse.

It was an ill wind which blew much good however, as within a matter of
weeks chance brought the current Mrs. Wisnia into my life and we've been
together ever since, married 29 years this September. She doesn't mind a
bit if I'd rather spend a night making chips in my basement shop than go
to some charity affair so her face and my mug could end up in a photo on
the society page of the Boston Globe.

Just about a year ago I got a real whoop when a friend e-mailed me this
link describing then current events in the lfe of that lawyer who
cuckolded me so many years back:

http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/usaopress/2...sentencing.htm

My evil twin hopes he ended up sharing a cell with a 300 pound pervert
named Bubba.

Jeff

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
snip------

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making

a

decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your

debt.

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint through
the AG's office in Washington, to which the seller responded how he had done
nothing wrong and how rude we were to dispute his non-disclosure. He went
on to blow his horn about the perfect record he has with the BBB in Florida.
Not anymore, he doesn't! And thanks for the idea, Michael Myers of Myers
Fine Arts. For those of you that are inclined to bid on art and other
offerings on eBay, be careful of his listings. He appears to be able to not
disclose those little things that can kill value, leaving the buyer in a
poor position. As soon as we get past this complaint, assuming he doesn't
do the right thing and make a proper settlement, our next move will be to
file fraud charges against him through the USPS.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have filing a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him. If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells, so it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.

Beyond that, we have a novel idea on how to expose him to almost everyone
that will be looking at his listings, and it will be perfectly legal. We'll
be sure to let you know when it's happening. I think you'll enjoy it!
Could prove costly for him, considering it will coincide with any of his
future listings, time and again, so each and every auction is accompanied by
a refresher for his prospective buyers about his potential for
non-disclosure. Any of us that have ever sold on eBay realize that if only
a few look and bid, you generally have to settle for a much lower price for
your goods. You be sure to enjoy those stolen dollars, Michael.

Harold

Richard,

Many thanks for your primer on ebay etiquette and procedure. It should be
required reading for all those doing business on ebay. Of course, it won't
do any real good for those that need it most. Hucksters will continue
huckstering and suckers will continue sucking at the tap of "too good to be
true".

I am very sorry to hear that such nice people as Harold and his bride were
taken in by ebay fraud. We may all profit from Harold's bitter experience,
though. I suspect he will hang on with the ferocity of a bull dog until
vindication is his. Hopefully, the slime-ball that conned Harold will
eventually rue the day and maybe there will be lesson is good business
practices for almight ebay.

Bob Swinney

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

At this point we intend to take them to court. Our big problem is
they are on the right hand side of the country, and we are on the left
hand side.

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in
making a decision in how to pursue this matter?

I am not a lawyer, but I have hired plenty of them and I can tell you what
the best advice on this would be. A $1200 case is far too small for
actual
litigation, and certainly not in a distant state. A "love letter" from
your lawyer might work, but not likely. Small claims might work but it is
too far away and it will cost you more in stomach lining than you will
recover. You can earn new money faster than you can recover this lost
money. So you have to write this off and get on with your life.

See my tale of being an eBay fraud victim:

http://www.truetex.com/ebayfraud.htm

Sounds like you already got the small eBay "buyer protection" settlement.

Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!

Drop it and get on with your life. There is no economic reason for you to
pursue this. Old money vs new.

And all this over ART GLASS? Puh-leeze. Your extravagant and non-
productive hobby does not deserve anyone's attention or sympathy. The AG,
the courts, even the despicable BBB, have better quarrels to attend to.
Indeed, this kind of game is what makes these hobbies what they are, full
of intrigue and double-dealing, yielding rich possibilities of that big
killer trade someday. Admit it, you got taken in this scheme because you
were after a profit on something with no utility other than selling it to
the next bigger sucker.

Reminds me of those people who whine and complain about getting a bad deal
on a cruise. No sympathy from me for money spent (or stolen) on such self-
indulgence.

You didn't lose money, you lost a crummy piece of glass.

"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
...
I hate to just jump on your misery, but why on earth are you buying art
glass on ebay?!!

No problem, Paul. Susan buys art glass from eBay because it is a source
for an otherwise scarcely available commodity. We almost never travel, so
she has almost no opportunity to see or buy things otherwise. Both of us
recognize the risk, and to quite honest, up until this issue, she's had
relatively good results. Two scary previous experiences that were readily
settled by the sellers, one even demanded returning our shipping fees. Not
all people, we've found, are crooks. Some make a mistake and are willing
to settle immediately.

The slightest chip or scratch can completely trash the value.
You have to be able to personally eyeball that stuff, to come up with a
price.
Even if the seller isn't a scumbag, it would be really easy to get
screwed.

Absolutely true! A fact apparently not lost on the seller in our instance.
A non-disclosure of the repair when asked, then an acknowledgment of it
after we had paid for and received the item, but it magically becomes an
inclusion, which they felt need not be reported, and was carefully avoided
in their description and the photos, tells me they know it, too. Their
business, Myers Fine Arts, in Saint Petersburg, Florida, is a store front,
and up until we gave them their first negative report on eBay, you'd think
they were upfront and honest. Michael Myers and Mary Dowd. Names you
should all keep near if you have any interest in art, art glass, or
collectibles. If they'll screw us, they'll screw anyone. Susan did
nothing to provoke them, all she did was ask condition, then bid on their
wares based on the strength of the false report of condition from Mary.

This has long been one of the areas, that I felt ebay was the worst choice
for shopping.

We're coming to terms with the idea that it might be a great place to visit
and learn, but perhaps not so good for buying. Honest people that sell
their wares on eBay should demand that people such as this are booted off
eBay. In my opinion, only one screw up that is not fairly settled, and
they're gone. They screw it up for the reputable dealers. That's the
price honest dealers will pay, not having people like us willing to bid on
their wares. In some small way I blame eBay for the failure to achieve
proper settlement, too. They were quick to award Susan the $175, but
because the seller lists large volumes, they will quickly recover their
loss, and they are free to continue their practice of non-disclosure.
How nice it would have been if eBay would have taken the position that as
long as they are not satisfying the buyer when a legitimate complaint such
as ours is voiced, they are forbidden to list or sell anything more. It not
only would get them honest, but keep them honest, too. It's all about
money, to hell with ethics.

Thanks for your comments, Paul.

Paul K. Dickman

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!

Drop it and get on with your life. There is no economic reason for you to
pursue this. Old money vs new.

And all this over ART GLASS? Puh-leeze.

You've missed one point here, Richard. This is NOT just about art glass.
This is also about a deadly honest hard working woman that stands by her
husband, has brought him 27 years of happiness after having spent the first
14 years of his life with a woman that was more interested in showing her
ass to strangers than keeping it home where it belonged. This woman, that
has no source of income because she has chosen to stay home and be the good
wife I had hoped she would be, just got screwed out of what, to her, is a
considerable amount of money. This was HER money, not mine. I see to it
that she has money she can use for her hobby, one that is honest and
honorable. She doesn't suck it up her nose, nor stick it in her veins.

Your extravagant and non-
productive hobby does not deserve anyone's attention or sympathy. The AG,
the courts, even the despicable BBB, have better quarrels to attend to.
Indeed, this kind of game is what makes these hobbies what they are, full
of intrigue and double-dealing, yielding rich possibilities of that big
killer trade someday.

She is appalled at your disdain for her choice in things that hold her
interest. You screwed up big time in this case. She would have been the
person the showed an interest in you, your hobbies, what ever they may be,
and have an interest in your well being. She is having a hard time
understanding your position. What makes your interests more important than
hers?

Admit it, you got taken in this scheme because you
were after a profit on something with no utility other than selling it to
the next bigger sucker.

Sorry, I'll admit no such thing. Susan has NEVER sold one piece of art
glass. She collects because she enjoys it, and studies far more than she
buys. In some cases she has clearly paid a little more for an item than it
might be worth, but her reasons for buying have never been for profit.
The best we can hope for is that should the day come that she must liquidate
a few pieces, that she would recover her investment. She collects with the
idea that her enjoyment is her profit. Shame on you for your negative,
judgmental attitude.


Reminds me of those people who whine and complain about getting a bad deal
on a cruise. No sympathy from me for money spent (or stolen) on such
self-
indulgence.

You didn't lose money, you lost a crummy piece of glass.

I assume you'd feel the same way if a deal in which you had a real interest
had a similar outcome? If you bought, for example, a lathe that was
represented as new, but came to you a rusted piece of junk, it's just a
crummy lathe?

Frankly, I'm surprised at you, Richard. This is about unscrupulous people
screwing other people, not about art glass. I gather from your comments
that it would matter only if it involved you and your interests. Shame on
you.

Harold

Jon Elson wrote:
The inspectors have one great big atom bomb at their disposal, which
is a denial of mail service! (Well, in really egregious cases of multiple
fraud, they can also arrest and prosecute the perps, but that won't apply
unless these guys do it on a massive scale.) But, any seller who lives by
checks coming in the mail absolutely goes white when they talk about
shutting
down their ability to receive mail! Scum like this often will only accept
money orders, and if a USPS MO was used, then the post office has their
signature on record somewhere, which also helps the investigation. Give
the MO serial # in the complaint.

What you say seems encouraging, but just how hard would it be for the
scumbag to start using a post office box at a place like Mailboxes Etc.,
or just have a buddy open a USPS post office box and hand him the key?

Jeff


--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"My luck is so bad that if I bought a cemetery, people would stop dying."

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...



Want to share more information for us in WA state? Business name and
address?

I can see it now: A local WA state resident with a very curious wife in tow
goes into said establishment to learn about "art glass". In the middle of a
conversation with store owner and with a store full of patrons, he says in a
rather loud voice "I hear that you like to swindle people on eBay. Do you do
that here in your store too?"

Just an idea. I know there are several Washingtonians that are regulars
here.

Lane

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Susan has had a recent very unhappy experience with a seller on eBay. Big snip
Many thanks,

Harold


Not a good scenario, Harold.
I know it's hindsight, but I'm surprised that nobody has
mentioned using eBay's Escrow service when buying expensive
items:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/escrow.html

Tom

Jeff,

YES!

Bob Swinney
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
Don't give up! But don't let it absorb too much of your energies, it
isn't worth it to bring yourself closer to his level.

Perhaps someone in the group who's in the swindler's home state would be
willing to assist you somehow. If it were in Red Sox territory I sure
would be willing to help.

What goes around doth come around, albeit it sometimes takes a very long
time.

My case in point, and somewhat OT since you mentioned lawyers:

Some thirty years ago my first SWMBO decided after ten years of being
married to me that she'd rather be with a guy who moved around in more
exciting circles than I did. She dumped me for one of our neighborhood
friends, a lawyer, who did similarly to his spouse.

It was an ill wind which blew much good however, as within a matter of
weeks chance brought the current Mrs. Wisnia into my life and we've been
together ever since, married 29 years this September. She doesn't mind a
bit if I'd rather spend a night making chips in my basement shop than go
to some charity affair so her face and my mug could end up in a photo on
the society page of the Boston Globe.

Just about a year ago I got a real whoop when a friend e-mailed me this
link describing then current events in the lfe of that lawyer who
cuckolded me so many years back:

http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/usaopress/2...sentencing.htm

My evil twin hopes he ended up sharing a cell with a 300 pound pervert
named Bubba.

Jeff

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
snip------

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in
making

a

decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your

debt.

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you
that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint
through
the AG's office in Washington, to which the seller responded how he had
done
nothing wrong and how rude we were to dispute his non-disclosure. He
went
on to blow his horn about the perfect record he has with the BBB in
Florida.
Not anymore, he doesn't! And thanks for the idea, Michael Myers of
Myers
Fine Arts. For those of you that are inclined to bid on art and other
offerings on eBay, be careful of his listings. He appears to be able to
not
disclose those little things that can kill value, leaving the buyer in a
poor position. As soon as we get past this complaint, assuming he
doesn't
do the right thing and make a proper settlement, our next move will be
to
file fraud charges against him through the USPS.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have
filing a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so
it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him.
If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells,
so it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no
problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.

Beyond that, we have a novel idea on how to expose him to almost
everyone
that will be looking at his listings, and it will be perfectly legal.
We'll
be sure to let you know when it's happening. I think you'll enjoy it!
Could prove costly for him, considering it will coincide with any of his
future listings, time and again, so each and every auction is
accompanied by
a refresher for his prospective buyers about his potential for
non-disclosure. Any of us that have ever sold on eBay realize that if
only
a few look and bid, you generally have to settle for a much lower price
for
your goods. You be sure to enjoy those stolen dollars, Michael.

Harold

||If you sent payment through a credit card, you can make a complaint, and may
||be able to get the charge reversed.

My experience has been that only American Express will go to bat for the
cardholder. Amex apparently considers the cardholder as their customer.
MC/Visa will reverse a charge, but it takes more than a bloody glove to make
it stick. When it's your word against the business (who pays MC/visa) you will
lose. For MC/Visa, the business owner is their customer, and money trumps fair
play every time.


Rex in Fort Worth

I had a buyer pay with certified mail, his idea was that if I was going to
screw him he could go the mail fraud route. I am an honest ebay seller so
its a non issue but his thinking was interesting.

I agree with Jim about using the mail system. If I have any concerns
about a seller I always pay with a postal money order.
Vince


jim rozen wrote:

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...



Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint through
the AG's office in Washington,



Another approach is contact the postmaster in his state. If the
mails were used at any point, this would be mail fraud. Those
folks are relentless - it may take several months but the mills
of the gods grind exceeding fine.

We even had the postal service follow up after the first letter
to them. The vendor (non-ebay related) had still not resolved
the matter so when the second go-around happened it must have
been much more unpleasant for them as they ponied up straight
away.

Keep *all* your correspondence, do it all by mail, and send the
stuff to your seller 'return recipt requested.'

Jim

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

A co-worker had a problem with someone once, and had talked the guy into
giving him a small token refund by check. He had to go to court to get
a judgment, but I believed he skipped the "forms of discovery" because
he already knew the guys checking account number (and bank) from the
check. He said the guy was surprised when the money was removed from
his account.

Vince


John Hofstad-Parkhill wrote:

It would be interesting to me to see what, if any, real actions can be taken
that provide any fruits.

I had a related experience with an outfit called "cyclone motors" for my CNC
mill/drill project. I have finally received most of the equipment, literally
all that he can deliver, and have to leave it at that.

My neighbor's situation is on topic as well. He purchased some furniture
from Pinecraft here in St. Louis Park, as he and I both believe in trying to
give the local business the shot. Paid for up front. Never delivered. This
was approximately a year ago. He went to court, won a judgement. Done deal?
Hardly. This guy knows how to play. He's even been featured on the local TV
channel 5 Investigates. Another lady, with the same sad story. He gave the
same song and dance, some bull about "minimum orders". It was never clear,
even after promises on TV that he came through for her, and definately has
not come through with my good friend & neighbor. Once the judgement was
handed down, you have to fill out forms of discovery (where does he bank?)
of course it's an empty account. He can have the sheriff's office sieze his
car, but it will cost $500 to do that, that might be recoverable. He can
have the sheriff come in and sieze the cash drawer, but how much will be in
the till? Frankly, I'd rather picket the guy.

It just seems a shame that the real, true & clear victims have no real
recourse. Something is broken.

Best of luck.

On Wed, 05 May 2004 04:07:38 GMT, Shiver Me Timbers
shouted from the rooftop:

How did you pay them.... check or credit card.

I presume you are aware that most charge cards will give you financial
relief and charge the amount back to the vendor.


You only get 'buyer protection' if you have signed up for it and it
does not extend to used merchandise.

-Carl
"An honest man doesn't need a long memory"- Jesse Ventura

A friend's brother works for ebay, formerly in paypal fraud prevention. If
you like I could dig up his address and see if he might offer any help.

I haven't read the rest of tonights postings yet, did you pay through paypal
by any chance? If you did, my friend's brother could maybe get him shut
down permanently.

StaticsJason


"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
Susan has had a recent very unhappy experience with a seller on eBay.
She
received an art glass item that was represented as being in good
condition,
with no repairs, but is has, indeed, been repaired, and it is VERY
noticeable.
She even sent an email asking specifically if the piece had any issues
with
which we should be concerned. The wife sent an email stating "There are no
chips, cracks, repairs or damage whatsoever."

Several photographs of the item were shown in the listing, each carefully
composed so as to not show the repaired area. The seller maintains that
it is not a repair, but an inclusion, but a certified and accredited
appraiser doesn't seem to agree with the seller, nor do we. It is more
than
obvious that the area around the glass has been altered from the original
acid etched finish. This is not a two bit item, she paid almost $1,200
for
it, and we are not wealthy people. She affords such a purchase only on
rare
occasion.

The seller has been most uncooperative, so much so that eBay has awarded
Susan $175 for the screw up by the seller and failure to make good on the
non-disclosure. All we ever asked of the seller was to return 100% of
our money and pay for the return of the item, but they (husband and wife
running a business) refused. We now assume they intentionally mislead
us
in the hopes of fetching a premium price for the item, for anyone aware of
the area in question would not pay what the item might be worth if it was
in
pristine condition. Art glass is profoundly effected by condition.
Small
chips or scratches have a serious effect on value, often a 90% reduction.

At this point we intend to take them to court. Our big problem is they
are
on the right hand side of the country, and we are on the left hand side.

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making
a
decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your
debt.

Many thanks,

Harold

Richard J Kinch wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!

Drop it and get on with your life. There is no economic reason for you to
pursue this. Old money vs new.

And all this over ART GLASS? Puh-leeze. Your extravagant and non-
productive hobby does not deserve anyone's attention or sympathy. The AG,
the courts, even the despicable BBB, have better quarrels to attend to.
Indeed, this kind of game is what makes these hobbies what they are, full
of intrigue and double-dealing, yielding rich possibilities of that big
killer trade someday. Admit it, you got taken in this scheme because you
were after a profit on something with no utility other than selling it to
the next bigger sucker.

Reminds me of those people who whine and complain about getting a bad deal
on a cruise. No sympathy from me for money spent (or stolen) on such self-
indulgence.

You didn't lose money, you lost a crummy piece of glass.

You don't get it, Richard J Kinch. This is not about extravagance. Nor is it
about self-indulgence,
nor non-productive hobby. This is about stealing, dishonesty, cheating, and
lying. All things
which are, in some form, criminal acts. Have you raised any children? If so, is
that the type
of attitude you instilled in them? The justice system is generally bad enough,
just giving a
slap on the wrist. You don't seem to think *any* attempt at punishment should
be made.
Suppose someone doctored a machine that YOU purchased. What then? Live and
learn?
Oh, but you're likely much, much too smart and canny to get the wool pulled
over your eyes.
Someday, no matter how sharp, no matter how careful you think you are, someone
will be
a little more sly than thee.

No sympathy from me.


Reverend Horton Heat

"Statics" wrote in message
news:wCfmc.12090$iy5.6755@okepread05...
A friend's brother works for ebay, formerly in paypal fraud prevention.
If
you like I could dig up his address and see if he might offer any help.

I haven't read the rest of tonights postings yet, did you pay through
paypal
by any chance? If you did, my friend's brother could maybe get him shut
down permanently.

StaticsJason

Sadly, payment was by personal check, which cleared before they shipped,
terms to which we had agreed thinking we were dealing with honest people.

I'm interested in any kind of help that is legal. I'd like to follow my
inside feelings and off the *******s, but that isn't rational. I'm going
to make their life as uncomfortable as I possibly can by asking people that
frequent eBay to boycott them. I'm going to hit them exactly when it hurts,
when they offer their next lot of live auctions. It will be impossible for
buyers to miss or ignore, and it will cost less than $5 to pull off. Mean
time, I'm filing claim after claim through any entity that has the slightest
of jurisdiction, each one after the previous one is laid to rest. They
keep denying any wrong doing, suggesting that I am the one that has altered
the photo or used trick photography of the repaired area, which is absurd.
Most of these entities are not judges, so if they get feedback that appears
to be reasonable, they seem to just ignore the problem. Clearly,
criminals have all the rights these days.

mean time, if they don't mind their name getting dirty, I'm more than happy
to oblige them. Hell, everyone needs a hobby. g

Harold

Catching hell Harold? There's always someone.

Its those who are willing to de-grease the wheels that make it a
somewhat saner place. Thing is that I seem to end up being the one to
re-grease it. Its repaired not as new.

"Lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote in message
...

Want to share more information for us in WA state? Business name and
address?

Hell yes!

Business name:

Myers Antiques & Fine Arts
1600 4th St N
Saint Petersburg, FL 33704-4302
727-823-3249 or 727-823-3248
www.myersfineart.com

Michael J. Myers, and his wife, Mary Dowd


I can see it now: A local WA state resident with a very curious wife in
tow
goes into said establishment to learn about "art glass". In the middle of
a
conversation with store owner and with a store full of patrons, he says in
a
rather loud voice "I hear that you like to swindle people on eBay. Do you
do
that here in your store too?"

How I wish he was local so I could pull that one off! I'm going to do my
eBay version of the same thing, though. By the way, here's a link that
leads to the item in question. If you're interested, I can send you a pic
of the repaired area that was not disclosed. Nothing done to alter its
appearance
aside from lighting it from the side. These *******s were really
underhanded in what they did.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ME:B:EOAB:US:6


Just an idea. I know there are several Washingtonians that are regulars
here.

Lane

Thanks for your concern, Lane.

Harold

In article ,
Jon Elson wrote:


Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
Susan has had a recent very unhappy experience with a seller on eBay. She
received an art glass item that was represented as being in good condition,
with no repairs, but is has, indeed, been repaired, and it is VERY
noticeable.
She even sent an email asking specifically if the piece had any issues with
which we should be concerned. The wife sent an email stating "There are no
chips, cracks, repairs or damage whatsoever."

Several photographs of the item were shown in the listing, each carefully
composed so as to not show the repaired area. The seller maintains that
it is not a repair, but an inclusion, but a certified and accredited
appraiser doesn't seem to agree with the seller, nor do we. It is more than
obvious that the area around the glass has been altered from the original
acid etched finish. This is not a two bit item, she paid almost $1,200 for
it, and we are not wealthy people. She affords such a purchase only on rare
occasion.

[ ... ]

Be sure to download and print out any auction pages from eBay before they
disappear, to document what they represented the item as.

I'm glad to see that this has already been suggested, and I
second it. Hopefully, the seller has not already removed the images
from their web site -- or you have already printed your copies.


It is a shame that something like this has to happen to
*anyone*.

I wish you the best of luck in dealing with this.
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

Business name:

Myers Antiques & Fine Arts
1600 4th St N
Saint Petersburg, FL 33704-4302
727-823-3249 or 727-823-3248
www.myersfineart.com

Michael J. Myers, and his wife, Mary Dowd


Thanks for your concern, Lane.

Harold





I'm sorry I thought it was the other way around, that you were on the east
coast and the business was in Washington state. My bad!


Lane

I am sure Richard uses the same logic for the lady raped and murdered at the
country club. It wasn't the rapists fault.........she ask for it by her self
indulgence!! Richard......I feel sorry for misguided morons such as
yourself.

I have never met Harold or Sue, but I am sure they are honest folks that
expect to be treated fairly and honestly regardless of where the transaction
takes place and regardless of the merchandise. I hope they get their justice
and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits. Evil thrives when
good men do nothing.

Kick some butt Harold!
JLZ

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!

Drop it and get on with your life. There is no economic reason for you to
pursue this. Old money vs new.

And all this over ART GLASS? Puh-leeze. Your extravagant and non-
productive hobby does not deserve anyone's attention or sympathy. The AG,
the courts, even the despicable BBB, have better quarrels to attend to.
Indeed, this kind of game is what makes these hobbies what they are, full
of intrigue and double-dealing, yielding rich possibilities of that big
killer trade someday. Admit it, you got taken in this scheme because you
were after a profit on something with no utility other than selling it to
the next bigger sucker.

Reminds me of those people who whine and complain about getting a bad deal
on a cruise. No sympathy from me for money spent (or stolen) on such
self-
indulgence.

You didn't lose money, you lost a crummy piece of glass.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free...... Dam straight..We are wearing our
protection !
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.667 / Virus Database: 429 - Release Date: 4/23/04

"John Hofstad-Parkhill" wrote in message
...
snip-----

Frankly, I'd rather picket the guy.

It just seems a shame that the real, true & clear victims have no real
recourse. Something is broken.

Best of luck.

My sentiments, exactly. What the hell is wrong with a society where honest
people get screwed over and the criminals have all the rights? Here in
Washington State, after 30 years of killing, and over 60 victims, the Green
River killer was recently apprehended and convicted. He volunteered
information in exchange for his life. Some poor schnook kills someone in
the heat of passion and gets executed, while this guy systematically killed
and molested dead bodies for years, and gets away with his life? Broken
is the word. Badly broken may be a little more accurate.

Thanks for the support!

Harold

In article ,
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

[ ... ]

rather loud voice "I hear that you like to swindle people on eBay. Do you
do
that here in your store too?"

How I wish he was local so I could pull that one off! I'm going to do my
eBay version of the same thing, though. By the way, here's a link that
leads to the item in question. If you're interested, I can send you a pic
of the repaired area that was not disclosed. Nothing done to alter its
appearance
aside from lighting it from the side. These *******s were really
underhanded in what they did.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ME:B:EOAB:US:6

It looks as though the images are still present. I find some
things interesting he

1) Looking at the bid history, I see only one live bid from the auction
floor, but based on the amount that person bid, it was either
someone who had not checked it out carefully enough, or someone
who did not know the field.

2) A very interesting response to your complaint:

================================================== ====================
Fraudulent misrepresentation of item. Contact for full details.

Buyer vordoinwa( 101) Mar-24-04 22:44 2218187309

Reply by myersfineart: Accurate representation of item Offered full refund & buyer
declined. Oh well Mar-27-04 08:56
================================================== ====================

Based on that, you were offered a chance to return it for a
refund and you turned it down. However, you told us that you were
refused a refund. I think that if you have the e-mails saved, you have
some extra evidence of misrepresentation, here.

Best of luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Wed, 05 May 2004 13:48:03 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:


http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/usaopress/2...sentencing.htm

My evil twin hopes he ended up sharing a cell with a 300 pound pervert
named Bubba.

Jeff

A few cartons of cigarettes and Bubbas new bitch will have other worries
as well.

Gunner

"A vote for Kerry is a de facto vote for bin Laden."
Strider