Susan has had a recent very unhappy experience with a seller on eBay. She
received an art glass item that was represented as being in good condition,
with no repairs, but is has, indeed, been repaired, and it is VERY
noticeable.
She even sent an email asking specifically if the piece had any issues with
which we should be concerned. The wife sent an email stating "There are no
chips, cracks, repairs or damage whatsoever."

Several photographs of the item were shown in the listing, each carefully
composed so as to not show the repaired area. The seller maintains that
it is not a repair, but an inclusion, but a certified and accredited
appraiser doesn't seem to agree with the seller, nor do we. It is more than
obvious that the area around the glass has been altered from the original
acid etched finish. This is not a two bit item, she paid almost $1,200 for
it, and we are not wealthy people. She affords such a purchase only on rare
occasion.

The seller has been most uncooperative, so much so that eBay has awarded
Susan $175 for the screw up by the seller and failure to make good on the
non-disclosure. All we ever asked of the seller was to return 100% of
our money and pay for the return of the item, but they (husband and wife
running a business) refused. We now assume they intentionally mislead us
in the hopes of fetching a premium price for the item, for anyone aware of
the area in question would not pay what the item might be worth if it was in
pristine condition. Art glass is profoundly effected by condition. Small
chips or scratches have a serious effect on value, often a 90% reduction.

At this point we intend to take them to court. Our big problem is they are
on the right hand side of the country, and we are on the left hand side.

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making a
decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your debt.

Many thanks,

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

At this point we intend to take them to court. Our big problem is
they are on the right hand side of the country, and we are on the left
hand side.

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in
making a decision in how to pursue this matter?

I am not a lawyer, but I have hired plenty of them and I can tell you what
the best advice on this would be. A $1200 case is far too small for actual
litigation, and certainly not in a distant state. A "love letter" from
your lawyer might work, but not likely. Small claims might work but it is
too far away and it will cost you more in stomach lining than you will
recover. You can earn new money faster than you can recover this lost
money. So you have to write this off and get on with your life.

See my tale of being an eBay fraud victim:

http://www.truetex.com/ebayfraud.htm

Sounds like you already got the small eBay "buyer protection" settlement.

How did you pay them.... check or credit card.

I presume you are aware that most charge cards will give you financial
relief and charge the amount back to the vendor.

Good Luck

On Wed, 05 May 2004 04:07:38 GMT, Shiver Me Timbers
shouted from the rooftop:

How did you pay them.... check or credit card.

I presume you are aware that most charge cards will give you financial
relief and charge the amount back to the vendor.


You only get 'buyer protection' if you have signed up for it and it
does not extend to used merchandise.

-Carl
"An honest man doesn't need a long memory"- Jesse Ventura

In article ,
Richard J Kinch wrote:

I am not a lawyer, but I have hired plenty of them and I can tell you what
the best advice on this would be. A $1200 case is far too small for actual
litigation, and certainly not in a distant state. A "love letter" from
your lawyer might work, but not likely. Small claims might work but it is
too far away and it will cost you more in stomach lining than you will
recover. You can earn new money faster than you can recover this lost
money. So you have to write this off and get on with your life.

All very true. Have you tried Judge Judy, she can handle up to $5000
and the case might make good TV.

--
free men own guns - slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Richard,

Many thanks for your primer on ebay etiquette and procedure. It should be
required reading for all those doing business on ebay. Of course, it won't
do any real good for those that need it most. Hucksters will continue
huckstering and suckers will continue sucking at the tap of "too good to be
true".

I am very sorry to hear that such nice people as Harold and his bride were
taken in by ebay fraud. We may all profit from Harold's bitter experience,
though. I suspect he will hang on with the ferocity of a bull dog until
vindication is his. Hopefully, the slime-ball that conned Harold will
eventually rue the day and maybe there will be lesson is good business
practices for almight ebay.

Bob Swinney

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

At this point we intend to take them to court. Our big problem is
they are on the right hand side of the country, and we are on the left
hand side.

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in
making a decision in how to pursue this matter?

I am not a lawyer, but I have hired plenty of them and I can tell you what
the best advice on this would be. A $1200 case is far too small for
actual
litigation, and certainly not in a distant state. A "love letter" from
your lawyer might work, but not likely. Small claims might work but it is
too far away and it will cost you more in stomach lining than you will
recover. You can earn new money faster than you can recover this lost
money. So you have to write this off and get on with your life.

See my tale of being an eBay fraud victim:

http://www.truetex.com/ebayfraud.htm

Sounds like you already got the small eBay "buyer protection" settlement.

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Snippage of sad, all-to-common tale of eBay fraud

At this point we intend to take them to court. Our big problem is they are
on the right hand side of the country, and we are on the left hand side.

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making a
decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your debt.

Many thanks,

Harold



What is the seller's home state? Some states have consumer protection
agencies, sometimes under the state's Attorney General. If the seller
has a history of deception, a consumer protection agency may be interested.

Eventually, some lawyer will figure out a way to make a buck or two from
eBay fraud. He could sell his service on eBay, with a reserve, hire
another paralegal or two....

But he would need to be licensed to practice in the seller's home state,
more than likely. I've considered actions a couple of times after
being screwed by eBay sellers. Winning a judgment would be a piece of
cake. Collecting is always a killer.

Dale Scroggins, Esq. (Ret.)
(Aren't there any other lawyers here?)

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
snip------

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making
a
decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your
debt.

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint through
the AG's office in Washington, to which the seller responded how he had done
nothing wrong and how rude we were to dispute his non-disclosure. He went
on to blow his horn about the perfect record he has with the BBB in Florida.
Not anymore, he doesn't! And thanks for the idea, Michael Myers of Myers
Fine Arts. For those of you that are inclined to bid on art and other
offerings on eBay, be careful of his listings. He appears to be able to not
disclose those little things that can kill value, leaving the buyer in a
poor position. As soon as we get past this complaint, assuming he doesn't
do the right thing and make a proper settlement, our next move will be to
file fraud charges against him through the USPS.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have filing a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him. If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells, so it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.

Beyond that, we have a novel idea on how to expose him to almost everyone
that will be looking at his listings, and it will be perfectly legal. We'll
be sure to let you know when it's happening. I think you'll enjoy it!
Could prove costly for him, considering it will coincide with any of his
future listings, time and again, so each and every auction is accompanied by
a refresher for his prospective buyers about his potential for
non-disclosure. Any of us that have ever sold on eBay realize that if only
a few look and bid, you generally have to settle for a much lower price for
your goods. You be sure to enjoy those stolen dollars, Michael.

Harold

You might consider placing liens on any real property
( house, car, bussines, Etc. ) it will cost you little or
nothing to file and he will have to settle with you when
he wants to sell any major asset or hire a lawer to
vacate the lien which will cost him money either way.
In addition liens can show up on credit reports and
be a big problem for him if he ever needs credit.

Best Regards
Tom.

"AZOTIC" wrote in message
...

You might consider placing liens on any real property
( house, car, bussines, Etc. ) it will cost you little or
nothing to file and he will have to settle with you when
he wants to sell any major asset or hire a lawer to
vacate the lien which will cost him money either way.
In addition liens can show up on credit reports and
be a big problem for him if he ever needs credit.

Best Regards
Tom.

Thanks, Tom.

Yeah, we have that in mind, but I don't think that is possible without a
judgment. We're going to file fraud charges through the post office
this week, so we're certainly working that direction. If we can get a
ruling from the post office, it might make it easy to get a civil
conviction. That's sort of the plan, but so many seem to think we're nuts.
What the hell has become of honesty and decency in our world?

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

We're going to file fraud charges through the post office
this week, so we're certainly working that direction.

You should also call 911 and report them. This is called "being a crank":
making a criminal complaint out of a civil dispute (and a silly one at
that). The criminal authorities don't like cranks.

Better yet, file your complaint right now! He

https://www.usps.com/postalinspector...dComplaint.htm

However, you may have a problem, in that they say:

[Dear cranks,] "the Inspection Service cannot resolve routine business
disputes between companies and their customers"

Read this: http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/pubs/pub300a.pdf so you understand
what mail fraud looks like. None of it has the slightest resemblance to
your case.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

We're going to file fraud charges through the post office
this week, so we're certainly working that direction.

You should also call 911 and report them. This is called "being a crank":
making a criminal complaint out of a civil dispute (and a silly one at
that). The criminal authorities don't like cranks.

Better yet, file your complaint right now! He

https://www.usps.com/postalinspector...dComplaint.htm

However, you may have a problem, in that they say:

[Dear cranks,] "the Inspection Service cannot resolve routine business
disputes between companies and their customers"

Read this: http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/pubs/pub300a.pdf so you
understand
what mail fraud looks like. None of it has the slightest resemblance to
your case.

Be sure you read through what constitutes fraud at the link you provided.
Not receiving that which was advertised is top of the list, so to speak.
Don't kid yourself into believing they don't care. The only thing that they
caution is that they may not react to a single complaint. Others have had
outstanding results. In no way do they consider such things as crank
complaints. Can't imagine where you got your information. Got mine off
the site.

Harold

What the hell has become of honesty and decency in our world?

Harold

Unfortunatley moral values are rapidly being replaced with
monitary values based on a system of winners and losers
without regard to future consiquenses.


Tom.

"AZOTIC" wrote in message
...
What the hell has become of honesty and decency in our world?

Harold

Unfortunatley moral values are rapidly being replaced with
monitary values based on a system of winners and losers
without regard to future consiquenses.


Tom.

Sigh. Very heavy sigh.

Yep, I'm afraid Susan and I must fully agree.

Harold

Probably coincides with the decline in spelling, grammar, and puctuation.

"AZOTIC" wrote in message
...
What the hell has become of honesty and decency in our world?

Harold

Unfortunatley moral values are rapidly being replaced with
monitary values based on a system of winners and losers
without regard to future consiquenses.


Tom.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have filing
a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him.
If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells, so
it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no
problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.


Be careful on advising other bidders. eBay has a rule about "interfering
with an auction" under which they can cancel your User ID. Might want to
setup another one to do the advising. I went through my own little eBay
adventure when I bought the CD version of the Machinery Handbook and some
jackass sends me a pirated copy he burned in his PC. I can't for the life
of me figure out how a company less than 10 years old can become such a
rule-bound bureaucracy.

Steve.


Steve.

"Hell hath no fury..." I can hardly wait to hear about your revenge, and
you have my best wishes. Nothing I hate worse than a con. Get'im! Keep us
informed, it will help us all deal with unscrupulous people.
--
There are only 10 kinds of people...Those that understand binary and
those that don't.


"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
snip------

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in
making
a
decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your
debt.

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint
through
the AG's office in Washington, to which the seller responded how he had
done
nothing wrong and how rude we were to dispute his non-disclosure. He
went
on to blow his horn about the perfect record he has with the BBB in
Florida.
Not anymore, he doesn't! And thanks for the idea, Michael Myers of
Myers
Fine Arts. For those of you that are inclined to bid on art and other
offerings on eBay, be careful of his listings. He appears to be able to
not
disclose those little things that can kill value, leaving the buyer in a
poor position. As soon as we get past this complaint, assuming he doesn't
do the right thing and make a proper settlement, our next move will be to
file fraud charges against him through the USPS.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have filing
a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him.
If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells, so
it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no
problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.

Beyond that, we have a novel idea on how to expose him to almost everyone
that will be looking at his listings, and it will be perfectly legal.
We'll
be sure to let you know when it's happening. I think you'll enjoy it!
Could prove costly for him, considering it will coincide with any of his
future listings, time and again, so each and every auction is accompanied
by
a refresher for his prospective buyers about his potential for
non-disclosure. Any of us that have ever sold on eBay realize that if
only
a few look and bid, you generally have to settle for a much lower price
for
your goods. You be sure to enjoy those stolen dollars, Michael.

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint through
the AG's office in Washington,

Another approach is contact the postmaster in his state. If the
mails were used at any point, this would be mail fraud. Those
folks are relentless - it may take several months but the mills
of the gods grind exceeding fine.

We even had the postal service follow up after the first letter
to them. The vendor (non-ebay related) had still not resolved
the matter so when the second go-around happened it must have
been much more unpleasant for them as they ponied up straight
away.

Keep *all* your correspondence, do it all by mail, and send the
stuff to your seller 'return recipt requested.'

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I agree with Jim about using the mail system. If I have any concerns
about a seller I always pay with a postal money order.
Vince


jim rozen wrote:

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...



Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint through
the AG's office in Washington,



Another approach is contact the postmaster in his state. If the
mails were used at any point, this would be mail fraud. Those
folks are relentless - it may take several months but the mills
of the gods grind exceeding fine.

We even had the postal service follow up after the first letter
to them. The vendor (non-ebay related) had still not resolved
the matter so when the second go-around happened it must have
been much more unpleasant for them as they ponied up straight
away.

Keep *all* your correspondence, do it all by mail, and send the
stuff to your seller 'return recipt requested.'

Jim

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
snip------


Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making


a


decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your


debt.

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint through
the AG's office in Washington, to which the seller responded how he had done
nothing wrong and how rude we were to dispute his non-disclosure. He went
on to blow his horn about the perfect record he has with the BBB in Florida.
Not anymore, he doesn't! And thanks for the idea, Michael Myers of Myers
Fine Arts. For those of you that are inclined to bid on art and other
offerings on eBay, be careful of his listings. He appears to be able to not
disclose those little things that can kill value, leaving the buyer in a
poor position. As soon as we get past this complaint, assuming he doesn't
do the right thing and make a proper settlement, our next move will be to
file fraud charges against him through the USPS.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have filing a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him. If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells, so it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.

Beyond that, we have a novel idea on how to expose him to almost everyone
that will be looking at his listings, and it will be perfectly legal. We'll
be sure to let you know when it's happening. I think you'll enjoy it!
Could prove costly for him, considering it will coincide with any of his
future listings, time and again, so each and every auction is accompanied by
a refresher for his prospective buyers about his potential for
non-disclosure. Any of us that have ever sold on eBay realize that if only
a few look and bid, you generally have to settle for a much lower price for
your goods. You be sure to enjoy those stolen dollars, Michael.

Harold




Be sure to post your experiences on the newsgroup a.m.o.ebay

Don't give up! But don't let it absorb too much of your energies, it
isn't worth it to bring yourself closer to his level.

Perhaps someone in the group who's in the swindler's home state would be
willing to assist you somehow. If it were in Red Sox territory I sure
would be willing to help.

What goes around doth come around, albeit it sometimes takes a very long
time.

My case in point, and somewhat OT since you mentioned lawyers:

Some thirty years ago my first SWMBO decided after ten years of being
married to me that she'd rather be with a guy who moved around in more
exciting circles than I did. She dumped me for one of our neighborhood
friends, a lawyer, who did similarly to his spouse.

It was an ill wind which blew much good however, as within a matter of
weeks chance brought the current Mrs. Wisnia into my life and we've been
together ever since, married 29 years this September. She doesn't mind a
bit if I'd rather spend a night making chips in my basement shop than go
to some charity affair so her face and my mug could end up in a photo on
the society page of the Boston Globe.

Just about a year ago I got a real whoop when a friend e-mailed me this
link describing then current events in the lfe of that lawyer who
cuckolded me so many years back:

http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/usaopress/2...sentencing.htm

My evil twin hopes he ended up sharing a cell with a 300 pound pervert
named Bubba.

Jeff

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
snip------

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in making

a

decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your

debt.

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint through
the AG's office in Washington, to which the seller responded how he had done
nothing wrong and how rude we were to dispute his non-disclosure. He went
on to blow his horn about the perfect record he has with the BBB in Florida.
Not anymore, he doesn't! And thanks for the idea, Michael Myers of Myers
Fine Arts. For those of you that are inclined to bid on art and other
offerings on eBay, be careful of his listings. He appears to be able to not
disclose those little things that can kill value, leaving the buyer in a
poor position. As soon as we get past this complaint, assuming he doesn't
do the right thing and make a proper settlement, our next move will be to
file fraud charges against him through the USPS.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have filing a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him. If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells, so it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.

Beyond that, we have a novel idea on how to expose him to almost everyone
that will be looking at his listings, and it will be perfectly legal. We'll
be sure to let you know when it's happening. I think you'll enjoy it!
Could prove costly for him, considering it will coincide with any of his
future listings, time and again, so each and every auction is accompanied by
a refresher for his prospective buyers about his potential for
non-disclosure. Any of us that have ever sold on eBay realize that if only
a few look and bid, you generally have to settle for a much lower price for
your goods. You be sure to enjoy those stolen dollars, Michael.

Harold

Jeff,

YES!

Bob Swinney
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
Don't give up! But don't let it absorb too much of your energies, it
isn't worth it to bring yourself closer to his level.

Perhaps someone in the group who's in the swindler's home state would be
willing to assist you somehow. If it were in Red Sox territory I sure
would be willing to help.

What goes around doth come around, albeit it sometimes takes a very long
time.

My case in point, and somewhat OT since you mentioned lawyers:

Some thirty years ago my first SWMBO decided after ten years of being
married to me that she'd rather be with a guy who moved around in more
exciting circles than I did. She dumped me for one of our neighborhood
friends, a lawyer, who did similarly to his spouse.

It was an ill wind which blew much good however, as within a matter of
weeks chance brought the current Mrs. Wisnia into my life and we've been
together ever since, married 29 years this September. She doesn't mind a
bit if I'd rather spend a night making chips in my basement shop than go
to some charity affair so her face and my mug could end up in a photo on
the society page of the Boston Globe.

Just about a year ago I got a real whoop when a friend e-mailed me this
link describing then current events in the lfe of that lawyer who
cuckolded me so many years back:

http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/usaopress/2...sentencing.htm

My evil twin hopes he ended up sharing a cell with a 300 pound pervert
named Bubba.

Jeff

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
snip------

Is there anyone that would consider giving us a little guidance in
making

a

decision in how to pursue this matter? We would be forever in your

debt.

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you
that
chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint
through
the AG's office in Washington, to which the seller responded how he had
done
nothing wrong and how rude we were to dispute his non-disclosure. He
went
on to blow his horn about the perfect record he has with the BBB in
Florida.
Not anymore, he doesn't! And thanks for the idea, Michael Myers of
Myers
Fine Arts. For those of you that are inclined to bid on art and other
offerings on eBay, be careful of his listings. He appears to be able to
not
disclose those little things that can kill value, leaving the buyer in a
poor position. As soon as we get past this complaint, assuming he
doesn't
do the right thing and make a proper settlement, our next move will be
to
file fraud charges against him through the USPS.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully
intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!
Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have
filing a
claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so
it's
pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him.
If
he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells,
so it
will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty
practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired
portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no
problems.
We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.

Beyond that, we have a novel idea on how to expose him to almost
everyone
that will be looking at his listings, and it will be perfectly legal.
We'll
be sure to let you know when it's happening. I think you'll enjoy it!
Could prove costly for him, considering it will coincide with any of his
future listings, time and again, so each and every auction is
accompanied by
a refresher for his prospective buyers about his potential for
non-disclosure. Any of us that have ever sold on eBay realize that if
only
a few look and bid, you generally have to settle for a much lower price
for
your goods. You be sure to enjoy those stolen dollars, Michael.

Harold

On Wed, 05 May 2004 13:48:03 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:


http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/usaopress/2...sentencing.htm

My evil twin hopes he ended up sharing a cell with a 300 pound pervert
named Bubba.

Jeff

A few cartons of cigarettes and Bubbas new bitch will have other worries
as well.

Gunner

"A vote for Kerry is a de facto vote for bin Laden."
Strider

Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!

Drop it and get on with your life. There is no economic reason for you to
pursue this. Old money vs new.

And all this over ART GLASS? Puh-leeze. Your extravagant and non-
productive hobby does not deserve anyone's attention or sympathy. The AG,
the courts, even the despicable BBB, have better quarrels to attend to.
Indeed, this kind of game is what makes these hobbies what they are, full
of intrigue and double-dealing, yielding rich possibilities of that big
killer trade someday. Admit it, you got taken in this scheme because you
were after a profit on something with no utility other than selling it to
the next bigger sucker.

Reminds me of those people who whine and complain about getting a bad deal
on a cruise. No sympathy from me for money spent (or stolen) on such self-
indulgence.

You didn't lose money, you lost a crummy piece of glass.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!

Drop it and get on with your life. There is no economic reason for you to
pursue this. Old money vs new.

And all this over ART GLASS? Puh-leeze.

You've missed one point here, Richard. This is NOT just about art glass.
This is also about a deadly honest hard working woman that stands by her
husband, has brought him 27 years of happiness after having spent the first
14 years of his life with a woman that was more interested in showing her
ass to strangers than keeping it home where it belonged. This woman, that
has no source of income because she has chosen to stay home and be the good
wife I had hoped she would be, just got screwed out of what, to her, is a
considerable amount of money. This was HER money, not mine. I see to it
that she has money she can use for her hobby, one that is honest and
honorable. She doesn't suck it up her nose, nor stick it in her veins.

Your extravagant and non-
productive hobby does not deserve anyone's attention or sympathy. The AG,
the courts, even the despicable BBB, have better quarrels to attend to.
Indeed, this kind of game is what makes these hobbies what they are, full
of intrigue and double-dealing, yielding rich possibilities of that big
killer trade someday.

She is appalled at your disdain for her choice in things that hold her
interest. You screwed up big time in this case. She would have been the
person the showed an interest in you, your hobbies, what ever they may be,
and have an interest in your well being. She is having a hard time
understanding your position. What makes your interests more important than
hers?

Admit it, you got taken in this scheme because you
were after a profit on something with no utility other than selling it to
the next bigger sucker.

Sorry, I'll admit no such thing. Susan has NEVER sold one piece of art
glass. She collects because she enjoys it, and studies far more than she
buys. In some cases she has clearly paid a little more for an item than it
might be worth, but her reasons for buying have never been for profit.
The best we can hope for is that should the day come that she must liquidate
a few pieces, that she would recover her investment. She collects with the
idea that her enjoyment is her profit. Shame on you for your negative,
judgmental attitude.


Reminds me of those people who whine and complain about getting a bad deal
on a cruise. No sympathy from me for money spent (or stolen) on such
self-
indulgence.

You didn't lose money, you lost a crummy piece of glass.

I assume you'd feel the same way if a deal in which you had a real interest
had a similar outcome? If you bought, for example, a lathe that was
represented as new, but came to you a rusted piece of junk, it's just a
crummy lathe?

Frankly, I'm surprised at you, Richard. This is about unscrupulous people
screwing other people, not about art glass. I gather from your comments
that it would matter only if it involved you and your interests. Shame on
you.

Harold

Catching hell Harold? There's always someone.

Its those who are willing to de-grease the wheels that make it a
somewhat saner place. Thing is that I seem to end up being the one to
re-grease it. Its repaired not as new.

Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

She is having a hard time
understanding your position. What makes your interests more important
than hers?

My interests are not important at all. I'm sure your wife is a fine and
virtuous woman. I have no disdain, only respect, for both of you and
your hobbies. Collecting useless stuff is a fine hobby. Most of us
have one or more such pursuits.

But your error is in pursuing your dispute at law, out of vengence, or
"the principle of the thing". Based on your description of the
situation, you have no reasonable hope of any economic recovery. All
you can do is harass the crook in an attempt to get even by inflicting
harm on him, not that it will do you any good. You are clinging to and
cherising this injustice. If you are honestly self-interested, you will
forget all this and move on.

What I do disdain is getting all uppity-righteous over silly possesions
like "art glass". Look, there's nothing wrong with collecting it, but
fer cryin out loud, is IT WORTH THE LEAST UPSET IN YOUR LIFE? NO.

I assume you'd feel the same way if a deal in which you had a real
interest had a similar outcome? If you bought, for example, a lathe
that was represented as new, but came to you a rusted piece of junk,
it's just a crummy lathe?

Yes, I would *feel* the same way. But I would hope that I would follow
the principles that I have learned over the years, that in civil
disputes, one must coldly assess the economic return from going to law
for a recovery. Usually when one is cheated, the scale is too small to
be worth legal action. Or the adversary is too well defended. The
rational man forgets it and moves on. The hot-tempered man swears
vengeance at any civil cost as you have done.

Frankly, I'm surprised at you, Richard. This is about unscrupulous
people screwing other people, not about art glass. I gather from
your comments that it would matter only if it involved you and your
interests.

No, you misunderstand. Learn to major in the majors and minor in the
minors. In life's scheme, this is a minor, and you should drop it.
Otherwise, you are straining at gnats. Unhealthy, and unhappy.

In article , Richard J Kinch
says...

What I do disdain is getting all uppity-righteous over silly possesions
like "art glass".

Hmm. Does this apply to other purchases as well? For example,
if I were to purchase a honda civic and there were a warranty
issue with it, I would expect the dealer to make good on it.
But what if I were to purchase a Lexus or a Mercedes? It
almost sounds as though you would advocate eating the repair
costs myself, simply becuause the extra cost of the fancier
car is just a silly luxury item.

The UCC does not make distinctions based on the catagory of
the purchase. Luxury vs essential. Where do you draw the line?
Food? Clothing? What's the clip level above (or below, depending
on your perspective) where complete honesty is required of a
seller?

What if he had bought a camera?
A bicycle?
An antique chair?
A car?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
.. .
Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

She is having a hard time
understanding your position. What makes your interests more important
than hers?

My interests are not important at all. I'm sure your wife is a fine and
virtuous woman. I have no disdain, only respect, for both of you and
your hobbies. Collecting useless stuff is a fine hobby. Most of us
have one or more such pursuits.

But your error is in pursuing your dispute at law, out of vengence, or
"the principle of the thing". Based on your description of the
situation, you have no reasonable hope of any economic recovery. All
you can do is harass the crook in an attempt to get even by inflicting
harm on him, not that it will do you any good. You are clinging to and
cherising this injustice. If you are honestly self-interested, you will
forget all this and move on.

What I do disdain is getting all uppity-righteous over silly possesions
like "art glass". Look, there's nothing wrong with collecting it, but
fer cryin out loud, is IT WORTH THE LEAST UPSET IN YOUR LIFE? NO.

I assume you'd feel the same way if a deal in which you had a real
interest had a similar outcome? If you bought, for example, a lathe
that was represented as new, but came to you a rusted piece of junk,
it's just a crummy lathe?

Yes, I would *feel* the same way. But I would hope that I would follow
the principles that I have learned over the years, that in civil
disputes, one must coldly assess the economic return from going to law
for a recovery. Usually when one is cheated, the scale is too small to
be worth legal action. Or the adversary is too well defended. The
rational man forgets it and moves on. The hot-tempered man swears
vengeance at any civil cost as you have done.

Frankly, I'm surprised at you, Richard. This is about unscrupulous
people screwing other people, not about art glass. I gather from
your comments that it would matter only if it involved you and your
interests.

No, you misunderstand. Learn to major in the majors and minor in the
minors. In life's scheme, this is a minor, and you should drop it.
Otherwise, you are straining at gnats. Unhealthy, and unhappy.

I recently had an insurance company attempt to cheat me on a damage claim to
my home. They wanted to pay me $700, which was unacceptable considering the
damage, and after I'd been paying their premiums for many years with nary a
claim.. Before I took it to small claims court, I paid $25.00 to have a
subpoena issued against the representative of the ins. company that was
located in an adjacent state. They had to hire a local lawyer to show up in
court, after unsuccessfully attempting to "quash" the subpoena. I had
several more independent appraisals done of the damage and stayed on top of
the situation and generally made their life miserable. We settled before
the next small claims court appearance for $4,000. I was out about $50.00
for the fees for issuance of two seperate subpoenas and some of my time on
my days off to be there when the home repair estimators showed up. Harold,
you might think about getting some accurate appraisals of the worth of this
item in it's present flawed condition and going this route. In my state
$4,000 is the limit in small claims court, so I did pretty well. And,
Kinch, there aren't any "major and minors". If you get blatantly screwed,
no matter what it concerns, you don't roll over for it.
The rational man makes every effort to remedy the situation. You can
believe that my adversary was well defended. Sic 'em, Harold.

Garrett Fulton




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Richard J Kinch wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!

Drop it and get on with your life. There is no economic reason for you to
pursue this. Old money vs new.

And all this over ART GLASS? Puh-leeze. Your extravagant and non-
productive hobby does not deserve anyone's attention or sympathy. The AG,
the courts, even the despicable BBB, have better quarrels to attend to.
Indeed, this kind of game is what makes these hobbies what they are, full
of intrigue and double-dealing, yielding rich possibilities of that big
killer trade someday. Admit it, you got taken in this scheme because you
were after a profit on something with no utility other than selling it to
the next bigger sucker.

Reminds me of those people who whine and complain about getting a bad deal
on a cruise. No sympathy from me for money spent (or stolen) on such self-
indulgence.

You didn't lose money, you lost a crummy piece of glass.

You don't get it, Richard J Kinch. This is not about extravagance. Nor is it
about self-indulgence,
nor non-productive hobby. This is about stealing, dishonesty, cheating, and
lying. All things
which are, in some form, criminal acts. Have you raised any children? If so, is
that the type
of attitude you instilled in them? The justice system is generally bad enough,
just giving a
slap on the wrist. You don't seem to think *any* attempt at punishment should
be made.
Suppose someone doctored a machine that YOU purchased. What then? Live and
learn?
Oh, but you're likely much, much too smart and canny to get the wool pulled
over your eyes.
Someday, no matter how sharp, no matter how careful you think you are, someone
will be
a little more sly than thee.

No sympathy from me.


Reverend Horton Heat

I am sure Richard uses the same logic for the lady raped and murdered at the
country club. It wasn't the rapists fault.........she ask for it by her self
indulgence!! Richard......I feel sorry for misguided morons such as
yourself.

I have never met Harold or Sue, but I am sure they are honest folks that
expect to be treated fairly and honestly regardless of where the transaction
takes place and regardless of the merchandise. I hope they get their justice
and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits. Evil thrives when
good men do nothing.

Kick some butt Harold!
JLZ

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing
better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him!

Drop it and get on with your life. There is no economic reason for you to
pursue this. Old money vs new.

And all this over ART GLASS? Puh-leeze. Your extravagant and non-
productive hobby does not deserve anyone's attention or sympathy. The AG,
the courts, even the despicable BBB, have better quarrels to attend to.
Indeed, this kind of game is what makes these hobbies what they are, full
of intrigue and double-dealing, yielding rich possibilities of that big
killer trade someday. Admit it, you got taken in this scheme because you
were after a profit on something with no utility other than selling it to
the next bigger sucker.

Reminds me of those people who whine and complain about getting a bad deal
on a cruise. No sympathy from me for money spent (or stolen) on such
self-
indulgence.

You didn't lose money, you lost a crummy piece of glass.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free...... Dam straight..We are wearing our
protection !
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.667 / Virus Database: 429 - Release Date: 4/23/04

On Wed, 05 May 2004 14:22:56 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

And all this over ART GLASS? Puh-leeze. Your extravagant and non-
productive hobby does not deserve anyone's attention or sympathy.


Geese. And I though Ed Huntress was an arrogant ass at times..... looks
like you beat him to Best of Class.

Gunner

"A vote for Kerry is a de facto vote for bin Laden."
Strider

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 05 May 2004 14:22:56 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

And all this over ART GLASS? Puh-leeze. Your extravagant and non-
productive hobby does not deserve anyone's attention or sympathy.


Geese. And I though Ed Huntress was an arrogant ass at times..... looks
like you beat him to Best of Class.

Gunner



Yes... amen. Mr. Kinch struck me as an intelligent man until this latest.
Acouple of his posts lately have been in the troll category. This sounds
like one of them.

Mark

P.S. I know Mr. Vordos in person, and he is a decent sort... not given to
foolishness at all. His posts in the last few years have always been useful
and to the point.

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...



Want to share more information for us in WA state? Business name and
address?

I can see it now: A local WA state resident with a very curious wife in tow
goes into said establishment to learn about "art glass". In the middle of a
conversation with store owner and with a store full of patrons, he says in a
rather loud voice "I hear that you like to swindle people on eBay. Do you do
that here in your store too?"

Just an idea. I know there are several Washingtonians that are regulars
here.

Lane

"Lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote in message
...

Want to share more information for us in WA state? Business name and
address?

Hell yes!

Business name:

Myers Antiques & Fine Arts
1600 4th St N
Saint Petersburg, FL 33704-4302
727-823-3249 or 727-823-3248
www.myersfineart.com

Michael J. Myers, and his wife, Mary Dowd


I can see it now: A local WA state resident with a very curious wife in
tow
goes into said establishment to learn about "art glass". In the middle of
a
conversation with store owner and with a store full of patrons, he says in
a
rather loud voice "I hear that you like to swindle people on eBay. Do you
do
that here in your store too?"

How I wish he was local so I could pull that one off! I'm going to do my
eBay version of the same thing, though. By the way, here's a link that
leads to the item in question. If you're interested, I can send you a pic
of the repaired area that was not disclosed. Nothing done to alter its
appearance
aside from lighting it from the side. These *******s were really
underhanded in what they did.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ME:B:EOAB:US:6


Just an idea. I know there are several Washingtonians that are regulars
here.

Lane

Thanks for your concern, Lane.

Harold

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

Business name:

Myers Antiques & Fine Arts
1600 4th St N
Saint Petersburg, FL 33704-4302
727-823-3249 or 727-823-3248
www.myersfineart.com

Michael J. Myers, and his wife, Mary Dowd


Thanks for your concern, Lane.

Harold





I'm sorry I thought it was the other way around, that you were on the east
coast and the business was in Washington state. My bad!


Lane

In article ,
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

[ ... ]

rather loud voice "I hear that you like to swindle people on eBay. Do you
do
that here in your store too?"

How I wish he was local so I could pull that one off! I'm going to do my
eBay version of the same thing, though. By the way, here's a link that
leads to the item in question. If you're interested, I can send you a pic
of the repaired area that was not disclosed. Nothing done to alter its
appearance
aside from lighting it from the side. These *******s were really
underhanded in what they did.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ME:B:EOAB:US:6

It looks as though the images are still present. I find some
things interesting he

1) Looking at the bid history, I see only one live bid from the auction
floor, but based on the amount that person bid, it was either
someone who had not checked it out carefully enough, or someone
who did not know the field.

2) A very interesting response to your complaint:

================================================== ====================
Fraudulent misrepresentation of item. Contact for full details.

Buyer vordoinwa( 101) Mar-24-04 22:44 2218187309

Reply by myersfineart: Accurate representation of item Offered full refund & buyer
declined. Oh well Mar-27-04 08:56
================================================== ====================

Based on that, you were offered a chance to return it for a
refund and you turned it down. However, you told us that you were
refused a refund. I think that if you have the e-mails saved, you have
some extra evidence of misrepresentation, here.

Best of luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
snip----


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName= AD
ME:B:EOAB:US:6

It looks as though the images are still present. I find some
things interesting he

1) Looking at the bid history, I see only one live bid from the auction
floor, but based on the amount that person bid, it was either
someone who had not checked it out carefully enough, or someone
who did not know the field.

2) A very interesting response to your complaint:

================================================== ====================
Fraudulent misrepresentation of item. Contact for full
details.

Buyer vordoinwa( 101) Mar-24-04 22:44 2218187309

Reply by myersfineart: Accurate representation of item Offered full refund
& buyer
declined. Oh well Mar-27-04 08:56
================================================== ====================

Based on that, you were offered a chance to return it for a
refund and you turned it down. However, you told us that you were
refused a refund. I think that if you have the e-mails saved, you have
some extra evidence of misrepresentation, here.

Best of luck,
DoN.

Yep! Everything saved except for Susan's original inquiry as to the
condition, but we have the response that says it is in good condition with
no repairs or other anomalies.

When they called, Susan was told they would make a refund on the purchase
price, but not the shipping. One way was $31, so sending it back meant a
loss of over $50 for something that was not represented honestly. When I
talked to Mary, I told her that because they didn't disclose the repair,
they were obligated to make full restitution. We would not have bid had we
known of the repair. She informed me that she was under no obligation to
disclose it because it wasn't a repair, something only a fool would have
believed. The conversation got somewhat up tempo, and was terminated.
Minutes later we received a call from Michael in which he said that he would
not take the piece back under any circumstances, which was my reward for not
agreeing with them that the repair was an inclusion. They have exaggerated
pretty much the entire thing, attempting to make me look like the problem,
including altering the photograph of the damaged area in question.
That's one reason I'd love to get this thing before a judge. Too damned
bad this country is so hell bent on defending crooks at the expense of
honest folks.

Thanks, DoN.

Harold

Lane writes:

In the middle of a
conversation with store owner and with a store full of patrons, he
says in a rather loud voice "I hear that you like to swindle people on
eBay. Do you do that here in your store too?"

This could amount to a criminal act of slander. All based on a breezy
newsgroup discussion that omits the other side. Why would you as a
stranger get involved in this man's quarrel, over a chintzy collectible of
all things?

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Lane writes:

In the middle of a
conversation with store owner and with a store full of patrons, he
says in a rather loud voice "I hear that you like to swindle people on
eBay. Do you do that here in your store too?"

This could amount to a criminal act of slander. All based on a breezy
newsgroup discussion that omits the other side. Why would you as a
stranger get involved in this man's quarrel, over a chintzy collectible of
all things?

You are correct. I wouldn't. But I believe that others would (present
company excepted). It was only a whimsical speculation. grin

BTW Richard, I caught your web page about making your own seltzer water etc.
Very interesting. I may try it.

Lane