In article ,
Peter Wiley wrote:

In article rs.com,
DoN. Nichols wrote:

6) If this happens, go back in with the command line "ls -laF"
to see whether both files are still present. (I haven't gotten
him to try this, yet.

Hmmm. It's worse than that. I created Fred.txt (vi Fred.txt) then
attempted to create fred.txt - vi opened the Fred.txt file.
Interesting.

ok, cd .. and vi fred.txt no probs.

mv fred.txt archive/. (which is where the Fred.txt file was created)

Guess what? Fred.txt vanishes. fred.txt takes its place, as shown by
different text inside the file.

You don't need to do anything with Finder in the Mac GUI at all to
cause this.

I'd say OS X has a serious filesystem bug.

It's not really a bug, it's just that the standard Mac filesystem (HFS+)
is not case sensitive. If you need case sensitivity, you have to format
a partition using UFS or Case Sensitive HFS+. See
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107863 for more info.
(Although it says 10.3 Server, this article applies to both versions of
10.4 as well.)

Robert

On 30 Mar 2006 13:50:08 GMT, Bruce Barnett wrote:
Gunner writes:

Have you tried Ubuntu? Its run on every laptop Ive put it on, with
the exception of the 386 with 16 whopping megs of memory and that huge
20 meg hard drive.

Gunner - I think they are talking about a BOOTABLE CD-ROM Image.
I've even heard of USB-drive versions of Linux.
It lets you run Linux on a computer WITHOUT installing any software.

Ubuntu has a live-CD version that lets you do just that.

On 30 Mar 2006 13:50:08 GMT, Bruce Barnett
wrote:

Gunner writes:

While you're looking at stuff, this one may be interesting if you
haven't come across it. First distrib we've been able to load straight
onto a HP laptop and work straight away, graphics card and all.

http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/

PDW

Have you tried Ubuntu? Its run on every laptop Ive put it on, with
the exception of the 386 with 16 whopping megs of memory and that huge
20 meg hard drive.


Gunner - I think they are talking about a BOOTABLE CD-ROM Image.
I've even heard of USB-drive versions of Linux.
It lets you run Linux on a computer WITHOUT installing any software.

Yes. Ubuntu comes either as a Live CD, or an Installable version.

Gunner


"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if
nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace
personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed,
the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of
defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see
police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line
of defense." --Walter Williams

In article , Robert
Kidd wrote:

In article ,
Peter Wiley wrote:

In article rs.com,
DoN. Nichols wrote:

6) If this happens, go back in with the command line "ls -laF"
to see whether both files are still present. (I haven't gotten
him to try this, yet.

Hmmm. It's worse than that. I created Fred.txt (vi Fred.txt) then
attempted to create fred.txt - vi opened the Fred.txt file.
Interesting.

ok, cd .. and vi fred.txt no probs.

mv fred.txt archive/. (which is where the Fred.txt file was created)

Guess what? Fred.txt vanishes. fred.txt takes its place, as shown by
different text inside the file.

You don't need to do anything with Finder in the Mac GUI at all to
cause this.

I'd say OS X has a serious filesystem bug.

It's not really a bug, it's just that the standard Mac filesystem (HFS+)
is not case sensitive. If you need case sensitivity, you have to format
a partition using UFS or Case Sensitive HFS+. See
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107863 for more info.
(Although it says 10.3 Server, this article applies to both versions of
10.4 as well.)

Thanks for that. I'll have to look into it further. So far this hasn't
been an issue for me, but you never know...

I have used UFS for external Firewire drives.

PDW

According to Peter Wiley :

While you're looking at stuff, this one may be interesting if you
haven't come across it. First distrib we've been able to load straight
onto a HP laptop and work straight away, graphics card and all.

http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/

Hmm ... that looks interesting -- though I already have a livecd
version of OpenBSD for Intel processors.

Thanks,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to J. Clarke :
DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

The Windows box is Win 2000-Pro. But, as explained several
times above, I have no *need* for it to talk to the outside world, My
unix boxen do that very nicely, thank you.

The bottom line on this seems to be that you're unhappy because you can't
use Google Earth and the reason you can't use it is that you're too chicken
to do something that the average third grader takes in stride.

I'm unhappy because Google does not provide for other OS's.

The *proper* way to deal with this problem is to provide source
code for generic unix, which can be downloaded, examined for security
holes, and then compiled.

And the average third grader does not know (or care) enough to
be worried. I know of at least one pair of small kids who have lost
access to a particular sacrificial Windows box, because they could not
resist clicking to download an "update" for their favorite game. It
thoroughly infected the system, and they were then banished to using
only disconnected systems for their games.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Peter Wiley :
In article rs.com,
DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

The one thing from your experience which differs is that you are
using a commercial database program.

At one stage I tested every dbms I could find that had a type 4 JDBC
driver against some of my code. I got all of them to work tho with
differing levels of performance. Oracle definitely works; the reason I
stopped using it is the same reason I don't use Windows. Poor software
sold by hype.

:-)

Postgresql isn't really a commercial dbms, it's open source. I've used
mysql and a couple of the small fry pure Java database engines as well.

O.K. I'll have to look into that.

We are providing something which
will run on all systems without having to *purchase* extra software.

Yes, I understand that. So am I. That's why I switched *from* Oracle to
Postgres. My main data servers are all open systems software from o/s
to our code to dbms.

Thanks.

3) create two files whose names differ only in the case (such
as "Junque" and "junque"). Ideally, put a different text
string in each, so they can be identified later.

4) Use "ls -laF" to verify that both are there.

5) Now -- go to the OS-X GUI, and go look at the same
subdirectory. His experience was that he saw both names for an
instant, and then one of them overwrote the other.

6) If this happens, go back in with the command line "ls -laF"
to see whether both files are still present. (I haven't gotten
him to try this, yet.

Hmmm. It's worse than that. I created Fred.txt (vi Fred.txt) then
attempted to create fred.txt - vi opened the Fred.txt file.
Interesting.

ok, cd .. and vi fred.txt no probs.

mv fred.txt archive/. (which is where the Fred.txt file was created)

Guess what? Fred.txt vanishes. fred.txt takes its place, as shown by
different text inside the file.

You don't need to do anything with Finder in the Mac GUI at all to
cause this.

I'd say OS X has a serious filesystem bug.

Thank you for confirming this. I finally got the fellow at the
other end to do a sequence of steps which finally verified this in the
last exchange of e-mails. And I wonder how long before it will be
fixed -- or whether they consider the normally unix filesystem behavior
broken, and think that they have "fixed" it?

Of course, it is not as bad as things used to be in MS-DOS,
where you have created a bunch of files with 'x' in the name, with the
expectation of cleaning them all up -- and discover that:

DEL *X*.*

is treated the same as:

DEL *.*

except that because it is not literally "*.*", it does not bother even
saying "ARE YOU SURE" as it otherwise would. I was already using unix
both at work and at home when I discovered that. I later discovered
that COMMAND.COM takes the first '*', replaces it with a '?', and then
fills out with '?' until the end of the field. So it never even *sees*
the 'X' and the second '?'.

I like my machine, it's the one I use most and take with me when I have
to travel. A 15" Powerbook G4. The Windows machine on my desk really
only gets used for corporate stuff and occasionally Oracle sys admin
stuff tho I'm thinking of installing Solidworks.

O.K. Now, the trick comes of affording a Powerbook G4 on a
fixed retirement income. :-)

I don't work here (only) for the salary, I like the toys.........

One of the things which I don't get while being retired. (And
back when I was working, the toys were rather restricted, because I was
working for the Government at that time.

Thanks,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Robert Kidd :
In article ,
Peter Wiley wrote:

[ ... filename case insensitivity ... ]

I'd say OS X has a serious filesystem bug.

It's not really a bug, it's just that the standard Mac filesystem (HFS+)
is not case sensitive. If you need case sensitivity, you have to format
a partition using UFS or Case Sensitive HFS+. See
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107863 for more info.
(Although it says 10.3 Server, this article applies to both versions of
10.4 as well.)

O.K. That explains what is wrong -- though *why* remains
unclear. It is certainly not normal unix behavior.

And my friend has been having difficulty finding the commands
used to format and partition a disk on that OS.

Thanks,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Gunner writes:

Gunner - I think they are talking about a BOOTABLE CD-ROM Image.
I've even heard of USB-drive versions of Linux.
It lets you run Linux on a computer WITHOUT installing any software.

Yes. Ubuntu comes either as a Live CD, or an Installable version.

Gunner

I didn;t know that. Sorry for the error. My apologies.



--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

In article rs.com,
(DoN. Nichols) wrote:

According to Robert Kidd :
In article ,
Peter Wiley wrote:

[ ... filename case insensitivity ... ]

I'd say OS X has a serious filesystem bug.

It's not really a bug, it's just that the standard Mac filesystem (HFS+)
is not case sensitive. If you need case sensitivity, you have to format
a partition using UFS or Case Sensitive HFS+. See
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107863 for more info.
(Although it says 10.3 Server, this article applies to both versions of
10.4 as well.)

O.K. That explains what is wrong -- though *why* remains
unclear. It is certainly not normal unix behavior.

It's a holdover from the classic Mac OS. Complicating the problem is
the fact that some Mac programs do not work when run from a case
sensitive volume. For example, Keynote (version 1, at least) contains a
hardcoded path that differs in case from the name on disk. For this
reason, Apple doesn't support booting from a case sensitive volume.

And my friend has been having difficulty finding the commands
used to format and partition a disk on that OS.

It's in /Applications/Utilities/Disk Utility, or diskutil on the command
line.

Robert

On 31 Mar 2006 02:22:44 GMT, Bruce Barnett wrote:
Gunner writes:

Yes. Ubuntu comes either as a Live CD, or an Installable version.

I didn;t know that. Sorry for the error. My apologies.

(shrug) Ignorance, is easy to fix.

According to Robert Kidd :
In article rs.com,
(DoN. Nichols) wrote:

[ ... ]

And my friend has been having difficulty finding the commands
used to format and partition a disk on that OS.

It's in /Applications/Utilities/Disk Utility, or diskutil on the command
line.

Thanks -- I've sent this along to him.

Thanks much,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:51:08 +0000, (DoN.
Nichols) wrote:

According to J. Clarke :
DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

The Windows box is Win 2000-Pro. But, as explained several
times above, I have no *need* for it to talk to the outside world, My
unix boxen do that very nicely, thank you.

The bottom line on this seems to be that you're unhappy because you can't
use Google Earth and the reason you can't use it is that you're too chicken
to do something that the average third grader takes in stride.

I'm unhappy because Google does not provide for other OS's.

The *proper* way to deal with this problem is to provide source
code for generic unix, which can be downloaded, examined for security
holes, and then compiled.

And the average third grader does not know (or care) enough to
be worried. I know of at least one pair of small kids who have lost
access to a particular sacrificial Windows box, because they could not
resist clicking to download an "update" for their favorite game. It
thoroughly infected the system, and they were then banished to using
only disconnected systems for their games.

Enjoy,
DoN.

Thats pretty much how I lost the entire network twice in the last two
years. Since then..the kid has moved out..and Ive firewalled the ****
out of everything..and most of the boxes connect through a Linux box
running a proxy.

Gunner


"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if
nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace
personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed,
the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of
defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see
police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line
of defense." --Walter Williams

On 31 Mar 2006 02:22:44 GMT, Bruce Barnett
wrote:

Gunner writes:

Gunner - I think they are talking about a BOOTABLE CD-ROM Image.
I've even heard of USB-drive versions of Linux.
It lets you run Linux on a computer WITHOUT installing any software.

Yes. Ubuntu comes either as a Live CD, or an Installable version.

Gunner

I didn;t know that. Sorry for the error. My apologies.


Dont appologize. I learn something new here every day. Its the name
of the game. We stop learning....well..most here anyways..when they
shovel dirt on our box.

btw..order the free disk sets from Ubuntu. Each set has one of each,
and pass them out to your friends

Gunner, running Mepis on several boxes


"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if
nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace
personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed,
the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of
defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see
police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line
of defense." --Walter Williams

According to Robert Kidd :
In article rs.com,
(DoN. Nichols) wrote:

[ ... ]

And my friend has been having difficulty finding the commands
used to format and partition a disk on that OS.

It's in /Applications/Utilities/Disk Utility, or diskutil on the command
line.

It turns out that he knew of this -- but didn't know that it
could be made to produce case-sensitive filesystems.

We had been looking through the man pages for programs named
"format" or "disklabel" to allow this kind of operation.

Thanks again,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article rs.com,
DoN. Nichols wrote:

According to Peter Wiley :
In article rs.com,
DoN. Nichols wrote:

I don't work here (only) for the salary, I like the toys.........

One of the things which I don't get while being retired. (And
back when I was working, the toys were rather restricted, because I was
working for the Government at that time.

Wrong department, obviously :-) I work in the marine research area,
anything less than $10K is small change when you spend millions every
year. I dropped my last laptop onto a steel deck 2 days prior to
sailing for an 8 week cruise. Bag zip broke. Whip out the Govt Visa
card & buy another one, then clone all the s/ware across (the dropped
one was still working, but who knew for how long). Nearly 2 years
later, the dropped laptop is still working.

BTW the Mac Minis are nice little boxes. I pensioned off my venerable
old IPX for one. The IPX is now a doorstop, but a respected doorstop.
Somewhere there's a SPARC 2, and a 5. I still use an Ultra 2 and have a
pensioned off Ultra 10 that's too good to part with but have no
immediate use for.

PDW

According to Peter Wiley :
In article rs.com,
DoN. Nichols wrote:

According to Peter Wiley :
In article rs.com,
DoN. Nichols wrote:

I don't work here (only) for the salary, I like the toys.........

One of the things which I don't get while being retired. (And
back when I was working, the toys were rather restricted, because I was
working for the Government at that time.

Wrong department, obviously :-)

A R&D lab which was part of the Army. Lots of paperwork
accounting for everything. :-)

I work in the marine research area,
anything less than $10K is small change when you spend millions every
year. I dropped my last laptop onto a steel deck 2 days prior to
sailing for an 8 week cruise. Bag zip broke. Whip out the Govt Visa
card & buy another one, then clone all the s/ware across (the dropped
one was still working, but who knew for how long). Nearly 2 years
later, the dropped laptop is still working.

Pretty good.

BTW the Mac Minis are nice little boxes. I pensioned off my venerable
old IPX for one. The IPX is now a doorstop, but a respected doorstop.

It is even a fairly reasonable size and shape to be a doorstop.

Somewhere there's a SPARC 2, and a 5. I still use an Ultra 2 and have a
pensioned off Ultra 10 that's too good to part with but have no
immediate use for.

I'm using a couple of Ultra-2s, an ultra-1, several SS-5s,
SS-10s, and one SS-20 at the moment, plus a backup web server on an
Ultra-5 (pretty much the same as the Ultra-10, but smaller, and less
expansion capability.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---