http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtm...O_AUDIOSS.html

"Cliff" wrote in message
...


http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtm...O_AUDIOSS.html


Just two days ago I finally decided after 52 years of purchasing GM only
that my 2000 GMC would be the last GM I would purchase. This came after a
long exchange of emails with GM regarding the DEXCOOL disaster and their
refusal to take any blame or provide any assurance of doing so in the
future.
I urge anyone with DEXCOOL concerns to express them by an email to GM.

Jack Hayes

Jack Hayes wrote:
"Cliff" wrote in message
...


http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtm...O_AUDIOSS.html


Just two days ago I finally decided after 52 years of purchasing GM only
that my 2000 GMC would be the last GM I would purchase. This came after a
long exchange of emails with GM regarding the DEXCOOL disaster and their
refusal to take any blame or provide any assurance of doing so in the
future.
I urge anyone with DEXCOOL concerns to express them by an email to GM.

Jack Hayes



I've got a 2002 GMC.

So what to do about the Dexcool? Replace w/ normal coolant?

"kurgan" wrote in
oups.com:


Jack Hayes wrote:
"Cliff" wrote in message
...


http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtm...s/20050220_AUT
O_AUDIOSS.html


Just two days ago I finally decided after 52 years of purchasing GM
only that my 2000 GMC would be the last GM I would purchase. This
came after a long exchange of emails with GM regarding the DEXCOOL
disaster and their refusal to take any blame or provide any assurance
of doing so in the future.
I urge anyone with DEXCOOL concerns to express them by an email to
GM.

Jack Hayes



I've got a 2002 GMC.

So what to do about the Dexcool? Replace w/ normal coolant?


NO. NO. NO. All coolants are ethylene glycol based. The difference
between them is the corrosion inhibitor additives they are mixed with.
There is a study that shows that mixing regular coolant with Dexcool
causes some sort of reaction with aluminum, causing it to react and
corrode badly. The corroded aluminum ands up throughout the system,
creating all sorts of trouble.

It's doubtful that even a good flush can remove all of the Dexcool.
Apparently it only takes a small amount of coolant mixing to create the
problem.

I wonder how many coolant systems have been ruined by those ten minute
oil change places topping off the coolant with the wrong type.

--

Dan

D Murphy wrote:

Just two days ago I finally decided after 52 years of purchasing GM
only that my 2000 GMC would be the last GM I would purchase. This
came after a long exchange of emails with GM regarding the DEXCOOL
disaster and their refusal to take any blame or provide any assurance
of doing so in the future.
I urge anyone with DEXCOOL concerns to express them by an email to
GM.

Jack Hayes



I've got a 2002 GMC.

So what to do about the Dexcool? Replace w/ normal coolant?


NO. NO. NO. All coolants are ethylene glycol based. The difference
between them is the corrosion inhibitor additives they are mixed with.
There is a study that shows that mixing regular coolant with Dexcool
causes some sort of reaction with aluminum, causing it to react and
corrode badly. The corroded aluminum ands up throughout the system,
creating all sorts of trouble.



Wow.

That's almost unbelievable that GM would do something like that. Then
again . . .


thanks for the information (seriously),

K. Gringioni.

On 21 Feb 2006 21:14:20 -0800, "kurgan"
wrote:
Wow.
That's almost unbelievable that GM would do something like that. Then
again . . .
==========================
Let me tell you about my Feiro. Main wire bundle [rear engine
car so included power leads] went directly over the cat conveter.

Dim bulbs specified small oil filter with no anti-drainback
valve. Burned out a lot of engines. Changed to small oil filter
with anti drain back valve -- end of problem? Not quite --- some
one decided to "upgrade to bigger [longer] oil filter. To save
money specified one with no anti drainback valve!!! Burned out a
bunch more engines. Changed specs to long filter with anti-drain
back valve -- end of problem??


for information about "death wish"see
http://www.answers.com/topic/death-wish


Uncle George

"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
"kurgan" wrote in
oups.com:


Jack Hayes wrote:
"Cliff" wrote in message
...


http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtm...s/20050220_AUT
O_AUDIOSS.html


Just two days ago I finally decided after 52 years of purchasing GM
only that my 2000 GMC would be the last GM I would purchase. This
came after a long exchange of emails with GM regarding the DEXCOOL
disaster and their refusal to take any blame or provide any assurance
of doing so in the future.
I urge anyone with DEXCOOL concerns to express them by an email to
GM.

Jack Hayes



I've got a 2002 GMC.

So what to do about the Dexcool? Replace w/ normal coolant?


NO. NO. NO. All coolants are ethylene glycol based. The difference
between them is the corrosion inhibitor additives they are mixed with.
There is a study that shows that mixing regular coolant with Dexcool
causes some sort of reaction with aluminum, causing it to react and
corrode badly. The corroded aluminum ands up throughout the system,
creating all sorts of trouble.

It's doubtful that even a good flush can remove all of the Dexcool.
Apparently it only takes a small amount of coolant mixing to create the
problem.

I wonder how many coolant systems have been ruined by those ten minute
oil change places topping off the coolant with the wrong type.


There's ethylene glycol and then there's propylene glycol....both have
corrosion inhibitors...and with either one, our 98 chev 6 cyl vortec has
been prone to developing leaks.

Some bad mixes happened in the design stages what with dis-similar metals
contacting one another, IMO.

****ing potmetal fittings.....

--

SVL

On 22 Feb 2006 04:48:15 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

I wonder how many coolant systems have been ruined by those ten minute
oil change places topping off the coolant with the wrong type.

Watch out for those "oil flushes" too !!!
Avoid, avoid, avoid IMHO.
150,000 miles - no problems.
Got talked into one ... leaked oil like a sieve there after. I think
it ate much of the gasketing .... expensive to replace.
--
Cliff

Jack,

Could you explain or supply links about the DEXCOOL problem?

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jack,

Could you explain or supply links about the DEXCOOL problem?

TMT


Go to Google.

Type DEXCOOL in the window.

Hit Enter.

13,300 hits in 0.10 seconds.

Hit Favorites

Hit Add

Click OK

Use Google when you want to find out about something.

HTH

Steve

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:04:50 -0500, "Jack Hayes"
wrote:

DEXCOOL

[
"This coolant is designed to remain in your vehicle for 5 years or 150,000
miles, whichever occurs first, if you add .. only add DEX-COOL extended life
coolant".
]

IOW, Not a good idea to replace it with something else.
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:04:50 -0500, "Jack Hayes"
wrote:


DEXCOOL


[
"This coolant is designed to remain in your vehicle for 5 years or 150,000
miles, whichever occurs first, if you add .. only add DEX-COOL extended life
coolant".
]

IOW, Not a good idea to replace it with something else.


But thats been common knowledge for donkeys years .. mixing coolants is
trouble



--
Eat well , stay fit , and die healthy .

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:04:50 -0500, "Jack Hayes"
wrote:

DEXCOOL

[
Introduction:
Equilon (owned by Texaco® and Shell®) markets a European coolant technology
(OAT) that consists of ethylene glycol inhibited with a combination of sebacic
acid and 2-ethylhexanoic acid supplemented with tolyltriazole. It was originally
called "Long Life", but a lawsuit brought by Warren Oil, who markets a fully
formulated coolant under the brand name "LongLife®) forced the retraction of
that term form the DEXCOOL, Texaco and Caterpillar® packaging. The combination
of a mono and dibasic carboxylic acids permitted Texaco to obtain a patent on
the specific combination. Other companies have obtained similar patents, by
varying the mixture somewhat and by using similar, but not exactly the same,
chemistry.

General Motors® has been using this coolant technology in their cars and light
trucks since the start-of-production of the 1996 model year vehicles (except
Saturn®, which began in 1997). GMC® medium trucks equipped with Caterpillar
engines, have been getting a nitrite-added form of DEXCOOL (NOAT) to insure
protection against wet sleeve liner cavitation-erosion.

Frequently Asked Questions:

Can DEXCOOL organic acid antifreeze be mixed with ethylene glycol antifreeze?
It is ethylene glycol based antifreeze! The concern with mixing comes from the
fact that there are very different chemical inhibitor packages in use. Most
leading technologies will work very well when used as intended, typically at 50%
in good quality water. If the coolants become mixed with DEXCOOL, however, one
study showed a possible aluminum corrosion problem in certain situations. The
other question is a concern for dilution of the protection packages. At what mix
is the there too little of either inhibitor to protect the engine? As a
precaution, both GM and Caterpillar instruct that contaminated systems must be
maintained as if they contained only conventional coolant.

How long will it last?
Uncontaminated, the engine manufacturers instruct that it may be kept in service
for 5 years or 150,000 miles in cars. In trucks, Caterpillar and GM currently
recommend that the nitrited version of the coolant be run 300,000 miles or 2
years, re-inhibited with a nitrite-tolyltriazole "extender", and run to a total
of 600,000 miles.

Are there different brands that meet the spec?
Yes. Any brand displaying the DEXCOOL trademark meet the spec, others
advertising compatibility are from the same family of coolants.

How can a customer tell if he has DEXCOOL?
If the customer owns a GM car and has orange coolant, then its DEXCOOL! In GM
trucks the coolant is "orange- red", indicating that it contains nitrite. Orange
coolant in Daimler-Chrysler® vehicles is NOT Dexcool. (Daimler Chrysler owners
with orange color factory coolant should consult their owners' handbooks).

Does it protect aluminum?
Yes, even though it contains no silicate, the primary aluminum protector in
conventional antifreezes, published data shows that it protects aluminum.
]
http://www.penray.com/bulletins/dexcool.htm

"Cliff" wrote in message
...


http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtm...O_AUDIOSS.html


Hi Jack again; Just do a Google Search with "dexcool problems" as the
search string and see how many hits you get.

I got 563. If you just search on "dexcool" you get thousands of hits.

Jack

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:38:41 -0500, Cliff
wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtm...O_AUDIOSS.html
==========================
I have been on the road for a while, and am just now plowing
thorough the last of the mail, mainly the back issues of an
alarmist rag called the Wall Street Journal.

The Thursday 16 Feb 2006 issue is particularly appropriate for
this thread as it discusses GMC, default and derivatives. Several
interesting items were discovered.

(1) GMC has about 30 Billion dollars in known *bonded* debt.

(2) The article was not clear if this included GMAC.

(3) Reading between the lines, GM's total debt including
unsecured items such as accounts payable and pension obligations,
co signed debt likely to default such as Delphi, and unknown
special purpose entities ala Enron, is much higher.

(3) As best as can be estimated there is about 200 billion
dollars of credit derivatives based on GMC default/bankruptcy.

(4) Because of the approximately 7X ratio of derivatives to
actual GM bonds and the way most credit derivative contracts are
written, even a hint that GM is nearing bankruptcy could cause
bond market chaos, as the traders attempt to cover what is
operationally a "short sale."

Which leads into an article on page A2 "Wall Street Is Cleaning
Derivative Mess," which details the following points:

(1) There are 14 major operators of what are in fact OTB
parimutuels handling derivatives rather than bets on
flesh-and-blood horse races.

(2) There is almost no regulation or tracking in the normally
accepted sense of the word.

(3) There is very active trading of the derivatives on both
sides, so that it is impossible for one party to tell who the
other party in a credit-default swap actually is at any moment.
Thus a GM bond holder may think they are "insured" against
default because of the financial stability of their derivative
correspondent, while in actuality the initial derivative
correspondent may have sold their side [of the derivative] to a
marginally [or even non- ] credit worthy institution/individual.

(4) The 14 derivative parimutuels are very lax in their "back
office" operations and there appears to be little or no
verification by the derivative contract participants that such a
contract actually exists.

(5) There appears to be nothing to prevent an "insider," such as
a corporate officer or banker (or their foreign representative),
from buying credit swap derivatives knowing their corporation is
about to default, thus making a 900% return.

FWIW, the credit swap derivatives currently indicate the odds of
a GM default/bankruptcy are about 9:1 *AGAINST*

While not directly related to GMC's problems and more in the
nature of a canary in a mine that just "keeled over" , "How the
BlackRock, Merrill Pact Unfolded," which details how Merrill,
Lynch & Company is bailing from mutual fund management, and
removing their name from a series of mutual funds they sold and
managed. What does Merrill know that we don't?

Uncle George

F. George McDuffee wrote:

(5) There appears to be nothing to prevent an "insider," such as
a corporate officer or banker (or their foreign representative),
from buying credit swap derivatives knowing their corporation is
about to default, thus making a 900% return.



There are laws against such things, but they are rarely enforced.


Unless you're stupid, like Martha Stewart, and make it obvious.



thanks,

K. Gringioni.

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:38:41 -0500, Cliff
wrote:

While not directly related to GMC's problems and more in the
nature of a canary in a mine that just "keeled over" , "How the
BlackRock, Merrill Pact Unfolded," which details how Merrill,
Lynch & Company is bailing from mutual fund management, and
removing their name from a series of mutual funds they sold and
managed. What does Merrill know that we don't?

Mmmm, dontcha just love 'dem unregulated hedge funds and derivatives? That's
real capitalism. That's Reaganomincs come home to roost.

As one employed in the service of pharmaceutical companies, I think my best
play is to get a commission on sales of venlafaxine and barbiturates...the
latter are also good for committing suicide.

Every problem is an opportunity in disguise.

--
Ed Huntress