I went to an estate sale a couple of months ago looking for tools. I
bought 2 vintage saws. When I went back to pick them up, the owner
volunteered to throw in some misc. other tools. I went home with heavy
crates of various unsorted tools. Just now getting around to looking
them over and sorting them out. Mostly junk machine tool parts. The
guy must have been a machinist. Anyway, the box also contained about
20 taps by CARD and Greenfield, some very large sizes, and about 100
reamers. I don't know what the reamers are used for. I was going to
toss them, but then I did some research on the web and found that they
are quite expensive. They are all either Lavallee & Ide, National or
Putnam. Some are in the boxes, some have some rust on the smooth part
of the shafts, but sharp cutters. The question I have is EXACTLY what
do you do with them. I am not a machinist but have always thought of
buying a milling machine and lathe and learning as a hobby. Are these
reamers something that a hobby machinist would likely use, or should I
get rid of them. What is the quality of these brands.

Steve

Greetings and salutations....

On 18 Jan 2004 15:21:08 -0800, (sw) wrote:

I went to an estate sale a couple of months ago looking for tools. I
bought 2 vintage saws. When I went back to pick them up, the owner
volunteered to throw in some misc. other tools. I went home with heavy
crates of various unsorted tools. Just now getting around to looking
them over and sorting them out. Mostly junk machine tool parts. The
guy must have been a machinist. Anyway, the box also contained about
20 taps by CARD and Greenfield, some very large sizes, and about 100
reamers. I don't know what the reamers are used for. I was going to
toss them, but then I did some research on the web and found that they
are quite expensive. They are all either Lavallee & Ide, National or
Putnam. Some are in the boxes, some have some rust on the smooth part
of the shafts, but sharp cutters. The question I have is EXACTLY what
do you do with them. I am not a machinist but have always thought of
buying a milling machine and lathe and learning as a hobby. Are these
reamers something that a hobby machinist would likely use, or should I
get rid of them. What is the quality of these brands.

Steve
Bummer...sounds like a box of junk...tell you what...Pack
it all back up, and, UPS it to me, and I will get it out of your
way...
In a slightly more serious mode...yea...reamers are really
useful. They are the tools that we use to make VERY precise, round
holes in metal. You get the hole "roughly" right with a drill,
then, ream it to size and shape.
Rule #1 - NEVER turn the reamer backwards (it breaks off
the teeth and makes it useless).
Don't know about the brands...but, I suspect that if they
are any good at all...they are liekly QUITE good. The "best"
way to value them is to either search Ebay or simply sell them
on Ebay. That is the new "street price" setter.
Regards
Dave Mundt

As Dave says, very desirable tool to have for making holes on size. One
note is not to throw them in a drawer and bang them into each other, They
are hard and will damage each other. Roll them up in an oil cloth and keep
them dry and no more rusting.
lg
no neat sig line
"sw" wrote in message
...
I went to an estate sale a couple of months ago looking for tools. I
bought 2 vintage saws. When I went back to pick them up, the owner
volunteered to throw in some misc. other tools. I went home with heavy
crates of various unsorted tools. Just now getting around to looking
them over and sorting them out. Mostly junk machine tool parts. The
guy must have been a machinist. Anyway, the box also contained about
20 taps by CARD and Greenfield, some very large sizes, and about 100
reamers. I don't know what the reamers are used for. I was going to
toss them, but then I did some research on the web and found that they
are quite expensive. They are all either Lavallee & Ide, National or
Putnam. Some are in the boxes, some have some rust on the smooth part
of the shafts, but sharp cutters. The question I have is EXACTLY what
do you do with them. I am not a machinist but have always thought of
buying a milling machine and lathe and learning as a hobby. Are these
reamers something that a hobby machinist would likely use, or should I
get rid of them. What is the quality of these brands.

Steve

"Dave Mundt" wrote in message
...
snip---

In a slightly more serious mode...yea...reamers are really
useful. They are the tools that we use to make VERY precise, round
holes in metal.

You apparently have never honed a reamed hole. The typical reamed hole is
scarcely qualified to be considered precise, let alone VERY precise.
I'll agree that a well reamed hole is drastically improved over the typical
drilled hole, however. Reamed holes are a distant second to properly
bored holes and aren't even in the running when compared to honed bores.
Reamers are notorious for generating multi-sided holes with bell mouthed
conditions.

Harold

Greetings and Salutations...

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:01:37 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Dave Mundt" wrote in message
.. .
snip---

In a slightly more serious mode...yea...reamers are really
useful. They are the tools that we use to make VERY precise, round
holes in metal.

You apparently have never honed a reamed hole. The typical reamed hole is
scarcely qualified to be considered precise, let alone VERY precise.
I'll agree that a well reamed hole is drastically improved over the typical
drilled hole, however. Reamed holes are a distant second to properly
bored holes and aren't even in the running when compared to honed bores.
Reamers are notorious for generating multi-sided holes with bell mouthed
conditions.

Harold


This is true, I have not. my real experience is mostly in the
area of cleaning up morse tapers in lathes, and, sizing mounting
holes through (relatively) thin sheet.
However, I am always interested in learning more subtleties
and tricks to make machining metal easier and better...and I suspected
this thread would cause a few of those to come out from under the
rocks.
More information is better than less!
Regards
Dave Mundt

"Dave Mundt" wrote in message
...
Greetings and Salutations...

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:01:37 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Dave Mundt" wrote in message
.. .
snip---

In a slightly more serious mode...yea...reamers are really
useful. They are the tools that we use to make VERY precise, round
holes in metal.

You apparently have never honed a reamed hole. The typical reamed hole
is
scarcely qualified to be considered precise, let alone VERY precise.
I'll agree that a well reamed hole is drastically improved over the
typical
drilled hole, however. Reamed holes are a distant second to properly
bored holes and aren't even in the running when compared to honed bores.
Reamers are notorious for generating multi-sided holes with bell mouthed
conditions.

Harold


This is true, I have not. my real experience is mostly in the
area of cleaning up morse tapers in lathes, and, sizing mounting
holes through (relatively) thin sheet.
However, I am always interested in learning more subtleties
and tricks to make machining metal easier and better...and I suspected
this thread would cause a few of those to come out from under the
rocks.
More information is better than less!
Regards
Dave Mundt

It's difficult to have some folks understand that reamers are not reliable
where precision is concerned. Many have been lead to believe that they are
the ultimate tool for good finishes and tight tolererance and that simply is
not the case. These are the same folks that would be most likely to argue
the point endlessly, but have had no real world experiences to point out the
weaknesses in reamed holes. It would be easy to draw that conclusion if
all you had at your disposal was a drill press, at which time they would
certainly be better than just drilling.

I've been in the shop since '57 and have seen results from the application
of reamers that are to be admired, and results that would be better
forgotten. When the right speed, feed and lubrication are combined with
the proper amount of stock removed, I've seen holes that turned out quite
well. As I stated, reamers are certainly an improvement over twist
drills, but should be used with caution when it really matters. One of
the very common problems of machine reamers is their ability to yield holes
that are multisided. A reamed hole that has had a pin pushed through it
a time or two, or has been lightly honed, will often display the pattern
readily. While it is relatively minor, it is one of the things that can
lead to part rejection when one works to tight tolerance. It is for that
reason that I speak out. I readily admit that the problems of which I
speak are rarely an issue for the vast majority of the work we all do.

Harold

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...


You apparently have never honed a reamed hole. The typical reamed hole
is
scarcely qualified to be considered precise, let alone VERY precise.
I'll agree that a well reamed hole is drastically improved over the
typical
drilled hole, however. Reamed holes are a distant second to properly
bored holes and aren't even in the running when compared to honed bores.
Reamers are notorious for generating multi-sided holes with bell mouthed
conditions.

I thought boring and honing were fairly bad for leaving bell mouthed holes
(although they're certainly round)? Not to say it's impossible to get a
correct profile with a boring or honing tool, but they're not exactly
perfect.

Regards,

Robin

"Robin S." wrote in message
.. .

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...


You apparently have never honed a reamed hole. The typical reamed
hole
is
scarcely qualified to be considered precise, let alone VERY precise.
I'll agree that a well reamed hole is drastically improved over the
typical
drilled hole, however. Reamed holes are a distant second to properly
bored holes and aren't even in the running when compared to honed bores.
Reamers are notorious for generating multi-sided holes with bell mouthed
conditions.

I thought boring and honing were fairly bad for leaving bell mouthed holes
(although they're certainly round)? Not to say it's impossible to get a
correct profile with a boring or honing tool, but they're not exactly
perfect.

Regards,

Robin

There is no reason for a boring bar to leave a bell mouth in a hole. A
hole that is bored with a sharp instrument and proper feed should yield a
roundness in keeping with the bearings of the spindle. Cutting pressure
should remain constant from one end to the other, thus should yield a bore
that is round and parallel in all respects, assuming the cutting edge is not
dull and dragging. Tool wear can be the one variable, but is generally
not enough to effect a bore size unless one is boring particularly nasty
material.

Honing is extremely precise, but in the hands of a fool it surely could
leave a bell mouthed hole. My personal experience as a grinder and tool
maker have proven to more than my satisfaction that honing is likely the
most precise of all methods to achieve round, straight holes. I would place
an internal grinder next. One of the projects I had to make was a set of
3/4" ring gages with a tolerance of only .000020". Holding the bores
straight and round on a hone is absolutely no problem is you apply the tool
properly, and it was the tool used to size the bores of the gages. They were
inspected by a certified secondary standards lab and were within limits.
By their very nature (by design), honing mandrels have a constant truing, or
correcting action. A hole that is out of round and tapered is easily
brought round and straight. Understand that the mandrels must be of the
rigid variety. The spring loaded cylinder hones one uses for cleaning up a
brake cylinder are virtually worthless, and yes, they do yield bellmouthed
holes. They have no reason not to.

If in the process of your apprenticeship you have the opportunity to run any
grinding and/or honing equipment, I think you'll quickly come to understand
the things I've mentioned. Grinding and jib bore/grinding operating are
the ultimate expression of precision work.

Harold

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:54:40 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Dave Mundt" wrote in message
.. .
Greetings and Salutations...

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:01:37 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Dave Mundt" wrote in message
.. .
snip---

In a slightly more serious mode...yea...reamers are really
useful. They are the tools that we use to make VERY precise, round
holes in metal.

You apparently have never honed a reamed hole. The typical reamed hole
is
scarcely qualified to be considered precise, let alone VERY precise.
I'll agree that a well reamed hole is drastically improved over the
typical
drilled hole, however. Reamed holes are a distant second to properly
bored holes and aren't even in the running when compared to honed bores.
Reamers are notorious for generating multi-sided holes with bell mouthed
conditions.

Harold


This is true, I have not. my real experience is mostly in the
area of cleaning up morse tapers in lathes, and, sizing mounting
holes through (relatively) thin sheet.
However, I am always interested in learning more subtleties
and tricks to make machining metal easier and better...and I suspected
this thread would cause a few of those to come out from under the
rocks.
More information is better than less!
Regards
Dave Mundt

It's difficult to have some folks understand that reamers are not reliable
where precision is concerned. Many have been lead to believe that they are
the ultimate tool for good finishes and tight tolererance and that simply is
not the case. These are the same folks that would be most likely to argue
the point endlessly, but have had no real world experiences to point out the
weaknesses in reamed holes. It would be easy to draw that conclusion if
all you had at your disposal was a drill press, at which time they would
certainly be better than just drilling.

I've been in the shop since '57 and have seen results from the application
of reamers that are to be admired, and results that would be better
forgotten. When the right speed, feed and lubrication are combined with
the proper amount of stock removed, I've seen holes that turned out quite
well. As I stated, reamers are certainly an improvement over twist
drills, but should be used with caution when it really matters. One of
the very common problems of machine reamers is their ability to yield holes
that are multisided. A reamed hole that has had a pin pushed through it
a time or two, or has been lightly honed, will often display the pattern
readily. While it is relatively minor, it is one of the things that can
lead to part rejection when one works to tight tolerance. It is for that
reason that I speak out. I readily admit that the problems of which I
speak are rarely an issue for the vast majority of the work we all do.

Harold



Yea...I see your point there. I know that I produced
some interestingly faceted holes when I first tried using
a reamer. It took a while to get a "touch" to cut smoothly
and evenly.
Probably part of the "problem" is that I just
don't work on the level of accuracy that would require
honing a hole for accurate size and shape. (*smile*),
perhaps if I was more heavily into pneumatics or
hydraulics, I would have to learn the skills!
Still interesting to consider, though.
Regards
Dave Mundt

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
I readily admit that the problems of which I
speak are rarely an issue for the vast majority of the work we all do.

But that is really the issue, isn't it? You must have frequently done work
in which the hole was the *main* feature in the part. Those who frequent
this group, and _many_ manufacturing industries do not have a need for holes
which are required to be bored and perhaps honed.

Frequently, holes are used for fastening and location. Coming from a die
making perspective, I would say that 90-99% of the holes produced by a
toolmaker are used for these purposes. As such, although you're right, folks
should understand that although there are applications for the holes you're
talking about, most of us will never have such a need.

On that note, is there a reasonably visible industry that uses, what I would
call, super finished holes? Perhaps for things like cylinders in engines and
bearing producers? Any thing else?

Regards,

Robin