Hello all,

Please correct me if I am missing something. My assumption is that
before doing precision measurement (to decide how much more metal to
remove), that I need to ensure the edges are clean - otherwise the
material look artificially thick and the end result is under sized.

Perhaps I should strive to never leave sharp edges that might distort
readings, but if I do, are there any good tricks for removing them?
Every so often, I decide to stop to be safe, only to find that another
pass would have been in order.

The offending parts are 1x1.5 inch with a 0.7 or so inch window. It
does not leave a lot of room to get a file where I want it. Any ideas?

When I have good stops, will the problem go away? I suppose then I
could unclamp, file, measure and then slap the part back in the vise???

That sounds nice, because yesterday I was including vise jaw widths in
some measurements It worked, but here's hoping there is a better way.

Bill

Bill Schwab wrote:

The offending parts are 1x1.5 inch with a 0.7 or so inch window. It
does not leave a lot of room to get a file where I want it. Any ideas?

It helps to think _where_ the burr is!
In your case if you want to meassure the window's size and the last
operation you did was milling the window, the burr will not disturb the
measuring of the opening. It will disturb when you measure the depth of
the window.

In almost any cases, it is a bad idea to unclamp a part for meassuring.
Getting it back into exactly the same position is time-consuming and
calling for inaccuracy.


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige

Nick,

It helps to think _where_ the burr is!

Ok, I'll bite - where is it? Let's try a little ascii drawing (will
work only in a fixed pitch font like courier):

+----+------------+----+
| | | |
+----+------------+----+

This is a side/section view of the window, and let's say I just ran
along the left side of the window (second | from the left). Are you
saying that the burr will not extend inside the window? That makes some
sense now that I think of it. In ascii:

|
+----+------------+----+
| | | |
+----+------------+----+
|

The burrs are the new | above and below. Is that the idea?


In your case if you want to meassure the window's size and the last
operation you did was milling the window, the burr will not disturb the
measuring of the opening. It will disturb when you measure the depth of
the window.

In the case above, could one say "thickness of the plate" vs. "depth of
window"?


In almost any cases, it is a bad idea to unclamp a part for meassuring.
Getting it back into exactly the same position is time-consuming and
calling for inaccuracy.

If I'm following you, then I see your point. Thanks!

Bill

Bill Schwab wrote:

The burrs are the new | above and below. Is that the idea?

Yes exactly.
Fine (ascii) arts. :-)

In your case if you want to meassure the window's size and the last
operation you did was milling the window, the burr will not disturb the
measuring of the opening. It will disturb when you measure the depth of
the window.

In the case above, could one say "thickness of the plate" vs. "depth of
window"?

Yes.
In your case thickness. If it is just a slot (not going through the
plate) it's depth. You meassure the burr:

B
+----+------------+----+
| | | |
| +------------+ |
+----------------------+

B is the burr, ascii art is stolen :-)
Again, if milling the slot was the last op, the burr will not disturb
meassuring the _lenght_ of the slot (or size of window).

OTOH normaly you don't have much trouble measuring the depth (because
you seldom do). I just let the mill scratch the surface, set zero and
mill depth. It is mostly within 1/100mm (if I care).

In almost any cases, it is a bad idea to unclamp a part for meassuring.
Getting it back into exactly the same position is time-consuming and
calling for inaccuracy.

If I'm following you, then I see your point. Thanks!

Yes, you understood what I wanted to say.

In tricky situations where you have to measure but can't deburr, it
sometime helps to use blocks (dunno know how you call them. shape like
longer gauge blocks, they help you aligning parts in the vice) for
building "reference planes".


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige

Nick,

The burrs are the new | above and below. Is that the idea?


Yes exactly.
Fine (ascii) arts. :-)

Thanks on both counts


In your case if you want to meassure the window's size and the last
operation you did was milling the window, the burr will not disturb the
measuring of the opening. It will disturb when you measure the depth of
the window.

In the case above, could one say "thickness of the plate" vs. "depth of
window"?


Yes.
In your case thickness. If it is just a slot (not going through the
plate) it's depth. You meassure the burr:

B
+----+------------+----+
| | | |
| +------------+ |
+----------------------+

B is the burr, ascii art is stolen :-)

If the royalties flow in, just send me 40% and we'll call it quits.


Again, if milling the slot was the last op, the burr will not disturb
meassuring the _lenght_ of the slot (or size of window).

Got it. FWIW, this seems like a situation in which I could deburr while
in the vise if there were a need.


OTOH normaly you don't have much trouble measuring the depth (because
you seldom do). I just let the mill scratch the surface, set zero and
mill depth. It is mostly within 1/100mm (if I care).

That's a weak link on couple of fronts, so far as I can tell. First one
needs to worry about the endmill slipping. My hunch is that it is worse
with smaller endmills, but that could be anything from poor technique to
a loose collet. Perhaps its just that I have most frequently worked
with half inch endmills, but I find that I have much less sense of how
hard I am working the smaller ones. I got a little bold with a 3/16
yesterday, and endmill, machine, parts and operator all lived to tell
the tale - still, I'm uneasy with them.

Are you an endmill holder fan?

Second, the scratching business seems imprecise to me, but I will admit
that there are not too many obvious solutions. One book I skimmed
advocates using a feeler gage with the machine off; make contact, then
drop the gage thickness and rezero, or something along those lines. As
fond as I am of my 31, that one might be knee mill territory. The one
time I wanted a controlled depth, it turned out ok by scratch, zero and
go. Now that I've used an edge finder for a while, I would like to have
something similar for the vertical, but there is that insertion depth
business to worry about.


In almost any cases, it is a bad idea to unclamp a part for meassuring.
Getting it back into exactly the same position is time-consuming and
calling for inaccuracy.

If I'm following you, then I see your point. Thanks!


Yes, you understood what I wanted to say.

In tricky situations where you have to measure but can't deburr, it
sometime helps to use blocks (dunno know how you call them. shape like
longer gauge blocks, they help you aligning parts in the vice) for
building "reference planes".

Anything like Enco 209-9008?

Thanks!!

Bill

Bill Schwab wrote:

Are you an endmill holder fan?

I use collets. ER25. But I'm very cautious with relaying on depth when I
do rough cutting. They frequently get pulled out when using them at
their limit. Or you close the collet that the thread water is dropping
out.


Second, the scratching business seems imprecise to me, but I will admit
that there are not too many obvious solutions.

Something like this. But I don't have it.
http://www.sav-spanntechnik.de/frameset.htm?url=5_aktion_nullpunkt.htm


Now that I've used an edge finder for a while, I would like to have
something similar for the vertical, but there is that insertion depth
business to worry about.

Scratching (depth-wise) always was good enough for me. If you want it
preciser, here is a trick: paint the place you will be scratching with
some edding. This way, you see the very first and finest scratch.

I only scratch when referencing depth. On corners I use an edge finder.
Or scratch if I don't care about precision. I never use a feeler gauge.
It's a PITA, IMHO.

BTW:
Is it "gauge" or "gage"? One is british, the other US. Which is which?
I think gauge is US.


In tricky situations where you have to measure but can't deburr, it
sometime helps to use blocks (dunno know how you call them. shape like
longer gauge blocks, they help you aligning parts in the vice) for
building "reference planes".

Anything like Enco 209-9008?

If it looks like these, yes:
http://www.industrie-messmittel.de/m...terlagen/paral
lelunterlagen.asp

Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
nk.net...
Hello all,

Please correct me if I am missing something...

Seeing that you're getting good answers, I won't feel guilty to remark that
I'm surprised you got such literal answers, given your headline. My first
reaction is to ask where you are clamped, and to suggest unclamping
yourself. If you need help with that, just ask.

Carry on as if nothing had happened...

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

I won't feel guilty to remark that I'm surprised you got such literal
answers

But only, because I don't understand those subtile jokes without getting
my nose hit on them.
Thanks for the hit. Or is it hint? :-)


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
nk.net...

Hello all,

Please correct me if I am missing something...


Seeing that you're getting good answers, I won't feel guilty to remark that
I'm surprised you got such literal answers, given your headline. My first
reaction is to ask where you are clamped, and to suggest unclamping
yourself. If you need help with that, just ask.

Carry on as if nothing had happened...

Always

Bill

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

I won't feel guilty to remark that I'm surprised you got such literal
answers

But only, because I don't understand those subtile jokes without getting
my nose hit on them.
Thanks for the hit. Or is it hint? :-)

We editors have to take our fun where we find it. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:46:22 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
.. .
Ed Huntress wrote:

I won't feel guilty to remark that I'm surprised you got such literal
answers

But only, because I don't understand those subtile jokes without getting
my nose hit on them.
Thanks for the hit. Or is it hint? :-)

We editors have to take our fun where we find it. d8-)

I would guess so, you and your poor mogigraphic compatriots.
(Yes, I was Anued this morning.)

Hey, your fair state was in the news last Friday. After you just
stood up for it, I thought this might be of interest. I scanned
the article from my local paper before remembering that rec.metalhaids
ain't a binary newsgroup, so you'll have to settle for the AP article
from the Post. So sorry.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/16/AR2005121600190.html

As an aside, it points out (to me, at least) the double-edged sword
that U.S. companies face. Developers buy cheap land too close to
factories (both open and closed) and then make their money. The new
owners aren't used to pollution (legal or not) and force the factory
out, losing yet another business to offshoring and/or bankruptcy.
Dilemma time: do we want industry and the jobs it offers, or what?

--
Don't forget the 7 P's:
Proper Prior Planning Prevents ****-Poor Performance
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:46:22 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
.. .
Ed Huntress wrote:

I won't feel guilty to remark that I'm surprised you got such literal
answers

But only, because I don't understand those subtile jokes without
getting
my nose hit on them.
Thanks for the hit. Or is it hint? :-)

We editors have to take our fun where we find it. d8-)

I would guess so, you and your poor mogigraphic compatriots.
(Yes, I was Anued this morning.)

Hey, your fair state was in the news last Friday. After you just
stood up for it, I thought this might be of interest. I scanned
the article from my local paper before remembering that rec.metalhaids
ain't a binary newsgroup, so you'll have to settle for the AP article
from the Post. So sorry.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...16/AR200512160
0190.html

Ah, that's no news. The whole city of Camden is a Superfund site. We're
going to dig up the city and bury it all in a Nevada landfill. Some call it
remediation; we call it upward mobility. Lake Camden will be a tourist
attraction for the entire northeast.


As an aside, it points out (to me, at least) the double-edged sword
that U.S. companies face. Developers buy cheap land too close to
factories (both open and closed) and then make their money. The new
owners aren't used to pollution (legal or not) and force the factory
out, losing yet another business to offshoring and/or bankruptcy.
Dilemma time: do we want industry and the jobs it offers, or what?

I'd rather have what. That is, if the alternative is to gag to death.

We've been doing nicely in NJ, manufacturing drugs. Very little smoke.

--
Ed Huntress

Bill Schwab wrote in
nk.net:


When I have good stops, will the problem go away? I suppose then I
could unclamp, file, measure and then slap the part back in the
vise???


That will help, yes.

Small jewlers files.
And you only need to file the area where you are measuring.
If the parts are aluminum....you only need a pocket knife...or deburr
tool. --
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:57:01 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...16/AR200512160
0190.html

Ah, that's no news. The whole city of Camden is a Superfund site. We're
going to dig up the city and bury it all in a Nevada landfill.

Hey, there's an idea. On or around Vegas? evil grin


Some call it
remediation; we call it upward mobility. Lake Camden will be a tourist
attraction for the entire northeast.

But can they dig that deep?


--
Action is eloquence. --William Shakespeare (1564-1616)

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:57:01 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../16/AR20051216
0
0190.html

Ah, that's no news. The whole city of Camden is a Superfund site. We're
going to dig up the city and bury it all in a Nevada landfill.

Hey, there's an idea. On or around Vegas? evil grin


Some call it
remediation; we call it upward mobility. Lake Camden will be a tourist
attraction for the entire northeast.

But can they dig that deep?

You only have to go down three or four feet and step back. Presto, instand
lake. Camden is in south Jersey, on the Delaware River. That whole end of
the state would be submerged by a decent-sized wave coming up from Cape May.

I was born in that part of the state. Agricultural wells in that area were
no more than ten or twelve feet deep in those days.

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:30:10 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

But can they dig that deep?

You only have to go down three or four feet and step back. Presto, instand
lake. Camden is in south Jersey, on the Delaware River. That whole end of
the state would be submerged by a decent-sized wave coming up from Cape May.

I was born in that part of the state. Agricultural wells in that area were
no more than ten or twelve feet deep in those days.

Shirley, the chemicals penetrated deeper. Oh, I get it. I had thought
you were referring to a lake filled with -WATER-. Sorry.

-
Every day above ground is a Good Day(tm).
-----------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:30:10 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

But can they dig that deep?

You only have to go down three or four feet and step back. Presto,
instand
lake. Camden is in south Jersey, on the Delaware River. That whole end of
the state would be submerged by a decent-sized wave coming up from Cape
May.

I was born in that part of the state. Agricultural wells in that area
were
no more than ten or twelve feet deep in those days.

Shirley, the chemicals penetrated deeper. Oh, I get it. I had thought
you were referring to a lake filled with -WATER-. Sorry.

Cripes, that would be too many bottles to cart to Camden. We'll just let it
fill up with the stuff that used to be used to make Champale. Remember that?
Bottled in Trenton. Hardly anyone who used to drink it is still alive to
tell about it.

Now we have a new Delaware River beer. It's called River Horse. Tastes like
fermented mare's sweat. 'Grows hair on your chest. This ain't no Lone Star
soda pop, pard'.

There's a special swimming stroke used for swimming in the river below
Camden. It's called the Delaware Crawl. Sometime I'll describe it for you.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:30:14 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

Shirley, the chemicals penetrated deeper. Oh, I get it. I had thought
you were referring to a lake filled with -WATER-. Sorry.

Cripes, that would be too many bottles to cart to Camden. We'll just let it
fill up with the stuff that used to be used to make Champale. Remember that?
Bottled in Trenton. Hardly anyone who used to drink it is still alive to
tell about it.

Egad, man!


Now we have a new Delaware River beer. It's called River Horse. Tastes like
fermented mare's sweat. 'Grows hair on your chest. This ain't no Lone Star
soda pop, pard'.

Bear Whiz Beer--That's why it's yella!


There's a special swimming stroke used for swimming in the river below
Camden. It's called the Delaware Crawl. Sometime I'll describe it for you.

Thanks, but I've seen drowning people in terrible pain before, Ed.


--
Adults are obsolete children. --Dr. Seuss (Theodore Geisel, 1904-1991)
--
www.diversify.com - Websites for children of ALL ages

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:30:14 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

Shirley, the chemicals penetrated deeper. Oh, I get it. I had thought
you were referring to a lake filled with -WATER-. Sorry.

Cripes, that would be too many bottles to cart to Camden. We'll just let
it
fill up with the stuff that used to be used to make Champale. Remember
that?
Bottled in Trenton. Hardly anyone who used to drink it is still alive to
tell about it.

Egad, man!


Now we have a new Delaware River beer. It's called River Horse. Tastes
like
fermented mare's sweat. 'Grows hair on your chest. This ain't no Lone
Star
soda pop, pard'.

Bear Whiz Beer--That's why it's yella!


There's a special swimming stroke used for swimming in the river below
Camden. It's called the Delaware Crawl. Sometime I'll describe it for
you.

Thanks, but I've seen drowning people in terrible pain before, Ed.

If you need any more Camden jokes, there's a million of 'em. A million.

BTW, through some quirk of fate I wound up on the circulation list for the
dullest publication in America, _Estuary News_. It's a little newsletter
that comes out every so often, more or less unpredictably. It's about the
ecological developments of the Delaware Estuary.

Latest story: The oysters have asthma.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:09:21 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

BTW, through some quirk of fate I wound up on the circulation list for the
dullest publication in America, _Estuary News_. It's a little newsletter
that comes out every so often, more or less unpredictably. It's about the
ecological developments of the Delaware Estuary.

Latest story: The oysters have asthma.

Jumpin' Jehosephat! That's bigger than the "clams got legs" story!
What a hoot! It's probably due to the coming Global Warming/Ice Age.


--
Adults are obsolete children. --Dr. Seuss (Theodore Geisel, 1904-1991)
--
www.diversify.com - Websites for children of ALL ages

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:09:21 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

BTW, through some quirk of fate I wound up on the circulation list for
the
dullest publication in America, _Estuary News_. It's a little newsletter
that comes out every so often, more or less unpredictably. It's about the
ecological developments of the Delaware Estuary.

Latest story: The oysters have asthma.

Jumpin' Jehosephat! That's bigger than the "clams got legs" story!
What a hoot! It's probably due to the coming Global Warming/Ice Age.

It's very sad. The little suckers can't even use an albuterol inhaler
without help.

If you've missed some of your issues of _Estuary News_, you can catch the
back issues he

http://www.delawareestuary.org/publi...newsletter.asp

The *real* story about the oysters is he

http://www.delawareestuary.org/newsa...rentissues.asp

We have a town in NJ named "Bivalve." Our shelled friends are very important
to us.

And when you're planning a trip to south Jersey, make sure you schedule it
around the annual Fungus Fest. If you don't dig mushrooms, bring some old
smelly sneakers and we'll see what we can grow in them. Maybe we'll just
have to add water.

Oh, and don't miss the Eggplant Festival. They hold that in my old home
town, Vineland. You'll see some young ladies do things with an eggplant that
you wouldn't imagine in your wildest dreams.

--
Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress says...

Oh, and don't miss the Eggplant Festival. They hold that in my old home
town, Vineland.

I remember that. We spent at least a few vacations at Parvin State
Park. Nastiest lake you *ever* saw!

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed Huntress says...

Oh, and don't miss the Eggplant Festival. They hold that in my old home
town, Vineland.

I remember that. We spent at least a few vacations at Parvin State
Park. Nastiest lake you *ever* saw!

I almost drowned in Parvin Pond (now called Parvin Lake, I think) when I was
four years old. No kidding. It's one of the most vivid memories of my life.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:17:08 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:09:21 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

BTW, through some quirk of fate I wound up on the circulation list for
the
dullest publication in America, _Estuary News_. It's a little newsletter
that comes out every so often, more or less unpredictably. It's about the
ecological developments of the Delaware Estuary.

Latest story: The oysters have asthma.

Jumpin' Jehosephat! That's bigger than the "clams got legs" story!
What a hoot! It's probably due to the coming Global Warming/Ice Age.

It's very sad. The little suckers can't even use an albuterol inhaler
without help.

If you've missed some of your issues of _Estuary News_, you can catch the
back issues he

http://www.delawareestuary.org/publi...newsletter.asp

The *real* story about the oysters is he

http://www.delawareestuary.org/newsa...rentissues.asp

It is?!? The entire text in Current Issues is:

"Oyster Industry Gets Needed Support
As reported in the spring 2005 issue of Estuary News, oyster
populations in the Delaware Bay have been declining. Through a
collaborative effort at the local, state and federal levels a
large-scale shell planting and transplant program was kicked off on
July 6, 2005. The program is expected to revitalize the resource and
the industry. The program has resulted in a commitment of
approximately $950,000, provided through the efforts of the states of
Delaware and New Jersey, the Army Corps of Engineers, the Cumberland
County Empowerment Zone, the New Jersey Shellfisheries Council, and
members of the New Jersey and Delaware congressional delegation."


We have a town in NJ named "Bivalve." Our shelled friends are very important
to us.

How...um, quaint. Say, that's not sexual innuendo, is it?


And when you're planning a trip to south Jersey, make sure you schedule it
around the annual Fungus Fest. If you don't dig mushrooms, bring some old
smelly sneakers and we'll see what we can grow in them. Maybe we'll just
have to add water.

And you said Californicators were weird?


Oh, and don't miss the Eggplant Festival. They hold that in my old home
town, Vineland. You'll see some young ladies do things with an eggplant that
you wouldn't imagine in your wildest dreams.

I'll bet it's nothing like the Cuke, Zuke, and Banana Festivals.
Is yours for fisters? (Yeeeeouch!)


--== May The Angst Be With You! ==--
-Yoda, on a bad day
--
http://diversify.com Ending Your Web Page Angst.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

snip

The *real* story about the oysters is he

http://www.delawareestuary.org/newsa...rentissues.asp

It is?!? The entire text in Current Issues is:

snip

Yeah. That's the whole story. Oysters in, oysters out.

We're joking here, but in fact the Delaware River and estuary have made a
remarkable comeback. The only real problem they have now is non-point-source
pollution: residential surface runoff. Too much fertilizer, too many other
chemicals. But nothing like it was. We have shad runs, and trout (big trout)
quite far down the river now.

We have a town in NJ named "Bivalve." Our shelled friends are very
important
to us.

How...um, quaint. Say, that's not sexual innuendo, is it?

Nope. They weren't that subtle. They meant clams and oysters. That was the
main industry on the Delaware Bay for a century or more.


And when you're planning a trip to south Jersey, make sure you schedule
it
around the annual Fungus Fest. If you don't dig mushrooms, bring some old
smelly sneakers and we'll see what we can grow in them. Maybe we'll just
have to add water.

And you said Californicators were weird?

At least we don't eat toadstools.

Oh, and don't miss the Eggplant Festival. They hold that in my old home
town, Vineland. You'll see some young ladies do things with an eggplant
that
you wouldn't imagine in your wildest dreams.

I'll bet it's nothing like the Cuke, Zuke, and Banana Festivals.
Is yours for fisters? (Yeeeeouch!)

Jeez. You're over the edge, which is to say, on the left coast. g

--
Ed Huntress