I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

My question is, am I crazy to think about building an enclosed room in my
(currently unfinished) basement? The space I have that I could allocate to
this is about 12' x 15'. I was thinking that I'd leave the floor concrete
and put up drywall all the way around... sound isolation would be a major
concern. It would almost be pointless to have this workshop if I could use
it late at night while the family is sleep (2 floor up). I guess before I
go on too much more I should mention what I actually want to do in it! It
will mainly be for Tig welding, which I'm not concerned about excessive
noise or dirt/debris levels, but I will also be prepping/making the pieces
that will be welded in this room as well. This means grinding, drilling,
cutting, etc. I won't have any air ducts going to this room, so hopefully
the mess would stay enclosed in there, but basically I'm looking for a real
world sanity from anybody else that has done this. If I'm shop-vaccing the
room twice a week, can I actually pull this off without ruining my house?
If anyone else has built something like this, I'd love to see some pictures.
I am just trying to prepare my "case" for when I tell the wife "oh yeah, I'm
going to start welding in the basement, but don't worry, the whole house
won't be covered in aluminum shavings" :-)

Thanks
Jeff

Jeff B wrote:

I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

My question is, am I crazy to think about building an enclosed room in my
(currently unfinished) basement? The space I have that I could allocate to
this is about 12' x 15'. I was thinking that I'd leave the floor concrete
and put up drywall all the way around... sound isolation would be a major
concern. It would almost be pointless to have this workshop if I could use
it late at night while the family is sleep (2 floor up). I guess before I
go on too much more I should mention what I actually want to do in it! It
will mainly be for Tig welding, which I'm not concerned about excessive
noise or dirt/debris levels, but I will also be prepping/making the pieces
that will be welded in this room as well. This means grinding, drilling,
cutting, etc. I won't have any air ducts going to this room, so hopefully
the mess would stay enclosed in there, but basically I'm looking for a real
world sanity from anybody else that has done this. If I'm shop-vaccing the
room twice a week, can I actually pull this off without ruining my house?
If anyone else has built something like this, I'd love to see some pictures.
I am just trying to prepare my "case" for when I tell the wife "oh yeah, I'm
going to start welding in the basement, but don't worry, the whole house
won't be covered in aluminum shavings" :-)

Thanks
Jeff

I'd suggest finding a new house in an area where there are no
restrictions. Tell your real estate agent that this is a requirement.
The more people who do this (as I did) the more chance the developers
building these crappy overcrowded developments and creating the
restrictions might get a clue that not everyone wants that crap.

This is also one of the problems contributing to all the lard-ass
children with zero physical skills. All these crappy developments
provide no room for kids to actually run around and get exercise and
develop physical skills. I grew up on a few heavily wooded acres with a
stream running through.

I hopped around the rocks and climbed the trees and whatnot. I see far
too many kids whose sole outdoor activity options are a swing in a 20'
square yard and the early years, before they could potentially go to an
area park on their own are the most critical years for developing these
skills.

Pete C.

I think this is a great opportunity to find a shop, garage, or studio space
to rent. Because I don't think you or your family will be happy with what
you end up with, even if you do convince yourself and her that it is safe,
which I don't think it is.

Grinding is filthy, chop saws are filthy - both cut by disintegrating
themselves into nasty tiny particles of abrasive which you can never sweep
up clean enough to be able to avoid tracking them into the house. You can't
really use dust collection systems because they are designed for sawdust,
not sparks.

I would look around for a fellow metalworker - here in Austin, TX, I have
seen a number of $200 spaces for rent on Craig's List, and in fact I am
looking at one this weekend. There are also a lot of racers in town that
are looking to share garage space. Lastly, there are a couple of storage
space places that allow for car work in their spaces - call around and ask.

Good Luck!


"Jeff B" wrote in message
news:Xxqaf.2461$IC.759@dukeread07...
I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

My question is, am I crazy to think about building an enclosed room in my
(currently unfinished) basement? The space I have that I could allocate
to this is about 12' x 15'. I was thinking that I'd leave the floor
concrete and put up drywall all the way around... sound isolation would be
a major concern. It would almost be pointless to have this workshop if I
could use it late at night while the family is sleep (2 floor up). I
guess before I go on too much more I should mention what I actually want
to do in it! It will mainly be for Tig welding, which I'm not concerned
about excessive noise or dirt/debris levels, but I will also be
prepping/making the pieces that will be welded in this room as well. This
means grinding, drilling, cutting, etc. I won't have any air ducts going
to this room, so hopefully the mess would stay enclosed in there, but
basically I'm looking for a real world sanity from anybody else that has
done this. If I'm shop-vaccing the room twice a week, can I actually pull
this off without ruining my house? If anyone else has built something like
this, I'd love to see some pictures. I am just trying to prepare my "case"
for when I tell the wife "oh yeah, I'm going to start welding in the
basement, but don't worry, the whole house won't be covered in aluminum
shavings" :-)

Thanks
Jeff

Emmo wrote:
I think this is a great opportunity to find a shop, garage, or studio space
to rent. Because I don't think you or your family will be happy with what
you end up with, even if you do convince yourself and her that it is safe,
which I don't think it is.


I have that, and there is no substitute for a shop at home.
I have a nice 25x40 steel shop with all the tools and machines that will
fit, along with 2 race cars and storage areas for the trailers etc. It's
30 minutes from my house, but it might as well be in the next state. I
get at most 7 hours/week of shop time, plus 2-3 hours drive time.

But what you might consider is off-site storage of your collector cars,
unless they are works-in-progress. that would likely be cheaper than
shop space.

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:04:06 -0600, "Jeff B" wrote:

I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

My question is, am I crazy to think about building an enclosed room in my
(currently unfinished) basement? The space I have that I could allocate to
this is about 12' x 15'. I was thinking that I'd leave the floor concrete
and put up drywall all the way around... sound isolation would be a major
concern. It would almost be pointless to have this workshop if I could use
it late at night while the family is sleep (2 floor up).

Way too small for eventual uses, but it's a good start if that's all
you have. But there are a lot of considerations. I have to go to
work so I'll touch on the points and they can be hashed out later, but
here's the basics:

I guess before I
go on too much more I should mention what I actually want to do in it! It
will mainly be for Tig welding, which I'm not concerned about excessive
noise or dirt/debris levels, but I will also be prepping/making the pieces
that will be welded in this room as well. This means grinding, drilling,
cutting, etc.

If you do any welding, you need a fresh air makeup source
(preferably heated or with a heat exchanger if you live anywhere north
of Florida - and even there it gets chilly. Or air conditioned in the
summer.

And you MUST provide a vent hood over your welding table that
exhausts to the outside. Even if you have a variable speed fan so you
turn it down while doing relatively clean TIG welding, you still
produce fumes of nasty stuff that have to be removed. Oxy-Acetylene
MIG Fluxcore or Stick all make varying levels of bad stuff in the
smoke that has to be removed, and the metal fumes in the weld smoke
can cause severe health problems - zinc fume fever is just one.

Any ventilation blowers should have another control switch outside,
so they can be used by the FD for smoke ventilation in case of a fire.
The fan needs to be remotely mounted and the power and control wires
all run outside the extreme fire hazard area, so it keeps working.

I won't have any air ducts going to this room, so hopefully
the mess would stay enclosed in there, but basically I'm looking for a real
world sanity from anybody else that has done this. If I'm shop-vaccing the
room twice a week, can I actually pull this off without ruining my house?

Yes - but you'll need to do so much prep work to build a welding or
machining workshop under the house and do it safely that it would be a
WHOLE lot easier to sell that house and buy one further out of town
that does not have the restrictions on a shop outbuilding in the back
yard, or to build a new house from scratch (or a total
almost-ground-up remodel) that was planned for that use in the first
place. I'm thinking a concrete slab floor between the basement and 1st
floor as the ultimate firestop.

To get around the codes somewhat, you can just build an addition to
your existing garage to make it a 4-car, or add a second two-car
garage on the other side. After it's all built and the permits are
passed as a garage, then you can turn it into a workshop. (Creative
Interpretation.) ;-) Or go up - make it a 2-story detached garage
and you have the whole upstairs.

With a separate shop building 100 feet from the house you don't have
to be nearly as paranoid about life safety, because you don't have
people sleeping upstairs. If it burns down or blows up it can be a
serious annoyance, not a tragedy when a few people die.


Fire Safety: You need outside windows from all main basement rooms
for ventilation so the fire can go out instead of only up - or worse,
the heat builds until the floor above flashes over.

You need automatic fire sprinklers inside all basement rooms, a
water-curtain sprinkler head over the windows so the flames pouring
out the basement windows don't catch the house on fire. And an
outside sprinkler booster hookup for the pumper. This way if they
decide it's too dangerous to go inside, they can let the sprinklers
keep working on it.

Lots of extinguishers, including a bucket of Class D powder on hand
in case you ever machine magnesium or other highly reactive metals.
And a few strategically placed 1-1/2" hose racks with a fog nozzle by
the doors might prove useful if you can jump on a fire while it's
still small.

NOTE: You always put the fire stuff near the Exit door - that way
you have the exit behind you when you decide to fight or flee. Or you
try to fight then change your mind as it gets worse.

And you need an outside walk-up or storm door access to the basement
(two ways to get in would be even better) so the FD can get inside
safely to fight the fire without going through the house. And at
least one large access door helps when you want to get equipment and
supplies in and out, too.

You need a 2-hour rated ceiling and walls in all the basement rooms
(double 1/2" drywall or better), and a 2-hour commercial fire door to
the upstairs so the fire doesn't spread. You need proper fire dampers
in all vent and duct penetrations, and firestop collars on all
conduits and pipes.

You need heat (rate of rise) type fire detectors in the shop rooms,
and smoke detectors in the hallway headed upstairs - that way the
smokes shouldn't give false alarms as often, they are a door away from
the welding or paint spraying. The alarms need to be linked to a
burglar alarm with a dialer, so even if you work in the shop and leave
for the evening and something is smoldering, the FD gets called while
it's still small.

You need to keep all larger quantities of flammable gases and
liquids outside the house in a steel storage shed, including your
welding gas bottles - The odds are very low, but Google the terms
'acetylene deflagration' sometime and you'll get an eye full - the
bottle just decides to go BOOM!... There shouldn't be any more
flammable stuff stored inside than you plan to use that day.

And on a general basis, you will always have potential moisture
control problems in a basement - you may need a dehumidifier that can
run 24/7, and you may (depending on the water table and the
waterproofing of the basement walls and floor) be fighting a
never-ending battle against water intrusion and dampness.

You'll need to do a lot of soundproofing in the basement ceiling.
And any ductwork or pipes can still carry the noise upstairs.

If anyone else has built something like this, I'd love to see some pictures.
I am just trying to prepare my "case" for when I tell the wife "oh yeah, I'm
going to start welding in the basement, but don't worry, the whole house
won't be covered in aluminum shavings" :-)

Fine aluminum and steel shavings and dusts can catch fire all by
themselves, especially if you mix in a little sawdust. Add in some
oily rags...

This is why you normally do that work in a garage at home - because
by all modern building codes an attached garage is isolated from the
rest of the house by fire rated walls and a fire rated solid door,
there are ventilation ports at the floor and ceiling levels to prevent
fume buildups, there is a big door for easy access...

I gotta go, more tonight. I'll put out the verbal flames then -
probably just as many from the people who think I'm being overly
paranoid as from the people thinking I haven't gone far enough in my
safety considerations, but that's to be expected. It's that "There
are Old pilots, and Bold pilots, but few Old Bold pilots..." thing.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:04:06 -0600, "Jeff B" wrote:

I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

My question is, am I crazy to think about building an enclosed room in my
(currently unfinished) basement? The space I have that I could allocate
to
this is about 12' x 15'. I was thinking that I'd leave the floor concrete
and put up drywall all the way around... sound isolation would be a major
concern. It would almost be pointless to have this workshop if I could
use
it late at night while the family is sleep (2 floor up).

Yes - but you'll need to do so much prep work to build a welding or
machining workshop under the house and do it safely that it would be a
WHOLE lot easier to sell that house and buy one further out of town
that does not have the restrictions on a shop outbuilding in the back
yard, or to build a new house from scratch (or a total
almost-ground-up remodel) that was planned for that use in the first
place. I'm thinking a concrete slab floor between the basement and 1st
floor as the ultimate firestop.
snip

Great post Bruce. Finally, someone has shed the bright light of real safety
concerns upon this problem. I agree with the others who suggested moving
your car/cars to an off-site facility during the winter months for storage.

The only thing I would add to Bruce's post is: think about your insurance.
Doing any welding (or other machine work, for that matter) in your basement
will very likely invalidate any homeowner's insurance you might have. It may
also invalidate your life insurance in the event that you kill yourself or a
family member.

- Michael

Excellent posting Bruce.

In article Xxqaf.2461$IC.759@dukeread07, Jeff B says...

I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

Put the shop in the garage. Put the cars outside.

Stop asking your wife about this stuff. Makes it look
like you just not serious.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

--Do yourself a favor; assuming there's nothing unmovable on the
floor above, put a hatch in there so you can lift big stuff in and out
with a winch.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Doodle doodle dee
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : Wubba wubba wubba...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

"Jeff B" wrote in news:Xxqaf.2461$IC.759@dukeread07:


snip

Jeff,
Some fire prevention things to mention:
A) Use 2 hour fire-rated drywall in the room, including the ceiling.
- If something bad happens, the 2 hours can give you time to get
something done about it before you lose your house.
B) Use a fire-rated door on the room.
- Same reason
C) Use the commercial type glue-on baseboard molding, and make sure it is
sealed to the floor and wall good (non-flammable silicone maybe?)
- This helps to prevent any hot dust/sparks from getting under a wall,
or behind the baseboard where it would have the highest chance of
starting a fire.
D) Use aluminum flashing or sheet, or stainless, to line the walls around
your welding area, and your grinding area. Make sure this too is sealed
to the walls with non-flammable sealer. Make sure it overlaps the
baseboard molding so hot embers cannot sit on top of the baseboard lip.
E) Have a larger, GOOD, fire extinguisher mounted at chest level near the
exit of the room. - Check the charge once a month.
F) You will need some type of ventilation for welding, there ARE bad
fumes from any type of welding. Make sure that the ducting outside the
wall is far enough away, or high enough over the roofline that a fire in
that room will not be escorted to the house above via the duct. You could
also purchase a fire damper for the intake and exhaust so that in the
event of a fire, these close and help shut off the air supply to the
fire. See- http://www.greenheck.com/pdf/kitchen...v2Sept2001.pdf for
a kitchen hood with this built-in.

--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

Welding in an open shop is messy and hazardous. Welding in a basement is
just plain stupid.

Anthony wrote:
"Jeff B" wrote in news:Xxqaf.2461$IC.759@dukeread07:


snip

Jeff,
Some fire prevention things to mention:
A) Use 2 hour fire-rated drywall in the room, including the ceiling.
- If something bad happens, the 2 hours can give you time to get
something done about it before you lose your house.
B) Use a fire-rated door on the room.
- Same reason

Welding in my open shop is not messy, and with reasonable safety
precautions, not particularly hazardous. Welding in a basement can be
stupid, but certainly doesn't have to be.

Peter


"Tim Killian" wrote in message
...
Welding in an open shop is messy and hazardous. Welding in a basement is
just plain stupid.

Anthony wrote:
"Jeff B" wrote in news:Xxqaf.2461$IC.759@dukeread07:


snip

Jeff,
Some fire prevention things to mention:
A) Use 2 hour fire-rated drywall in the room, including the ceiling.
- If something bad happens, the 2 hours can give you time to get
something done about it before you lose your house.
B) Use a fire-rated door on the room.
- Same reason

Tim Killian wrote in
:

Welding in an open shop is messy and hazardous. Welding in a basement
is just plain stupid.


I'll have to disagree. Is it the best situation to be in when welding?
No, of course not. Can it be done in a manner safe to life and property?
Most definately it can. It is up to the person doing the work to ensure
that the area is safe, and precautions are taken. Welding in a room with
plenty of flamables, no spark precautions, no fire extinguisher, and no
ventilation....IS stupid. Welding in a room designed to be welded
in...is NOT stupid.


--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 09:40:26 GMT, Anthony
wrote:

Tim Killian wrote in
:

Welding in an open shop is messy and hazardous. Welding in a basement
is just plain stupid.


I'll have to disagree. Is it the best situation to be in when welding?
No, of course not. Can it be done in a manner safe to life and property?
Most definately it can. It is up to the person doing the work to ensure
that the area is safe, and precautions are taken. Welding in a room with
plenty of flamables, no spark precautions, no fire extinguisher, and no
ventilation....IS stupid. Welding in a room designed to be welded
in...is NOT stupid.

There are a gazillion factories in the US, not to mention the rest of
the planet..where welding is done 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and
have been doing do for years.. And many of them do it indoors.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

There are a gazillion factories in the US, not to mention the rest of
the planet..where welding is done 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and
have been doing do for years.. And many of them do it indoors.

Yup. But not in the basement of a residential home with the family sleeping
upstairs.

Anthony wrote:
Tim Killian wrote in
:


Welding in an open shop is messy and hazardous. Welding in a basement
is just plain stupid.



I'll have to disagree. Is it the best situation to be in when welding?
No, of course not. Can it be done in a manner safe to life and property?
Most definately it can. It is up to the person doing the work to ensure
that the area is safe, and precautions are taken. Welding in a room with
plenty of flamables, no spark precautions, no fire extinguisher, and no
ventilation....IS stupid. Welding in a room designed to be welded
in...is NOT stupid.



Have you ever seen a clean welding shop? Of course not. They are usually
covered, along with the occupants, in a 1/4" of soot and grinding dust.
Welding is messy and there is no way it can be compatible with precision
machining. The fumes from welding are usually poisonous and they can be
corrosive if the humidity is high (as in a basement). Yes, ventilation
can remove the fumes but it will require make up air, and in a basement,
where does that come from?

There are probably a hundred things that can go wrong in this basement
welding scenario and a genius would be hard pressed to name 25 of them.

Tim Killian wrote in
:

Yes, ventilation
can remove the fumes but it will require make up air, and in a
basement,
where does that come from?


Outside, preferably.

There are probably a hundred things that can go wrong in this basement
welding scenario and a genius would be hard pressed to name 25 of them.


Same goes for a garage, industrial plant, our even outside.

Tim, I think you are missing my point. Welding can be, and is done, just
about anywhere, provided the surrounding environment is designed, or
accommodations are made for that purpose.



--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

Have you ever seen an area where TIG welding is done that is sooty?

Did Jeff ever say he was going to do precision Machining?

Are there millions of basements with furnaces? Do they not get enough
air to operate?

My guess is that you don't have a TIG welder.

Dan

Tim Killian wrote:




Have you ever seen a clean welding shop? Of course not. They are usually
covered, along with the occupants, in a 1/4" of soot and grinding dust.
Welding is messy and there is no way it can be compatible with precision
machining. The fumes from welding are usually poisonous and they can be
corrosive if the humidity is high (as in a basement). Yes, ventilation
can remove the fumes but it will require make up air, and in a basement,
where does that come from?

There are probably a hundred things that can go wrong in this basement
welding scenario and a genius would be hard pressed to name 25 of them.

"Tim Killian" wrote in message
. ..

Have you ever seen a clean welding shop? Of course not.

I have. The shops I've been in are usually TIG welding race car stuff and
the places have to be clean. My garage gets a llittle messy but it's
nothing that a push broom and shop vac can't handle.

They are usually covered, along with the occupants, in a 1/4" of soot and
grinding dust.

I have this vision of people emerging dark faced as from a coal mine, "Yep.
Just doing a little TIG welding!".

Peter

For sound control, look into resilient z-channel attachement for the
sheet rock, especially the ceiling. There are also special sound
attenuation blankets you can use in the rafters.

You will also need to look into air scrubbers to take care of any
smoke generated. There will be smoke. You can probably use a smaller
scrubber if you do your grinding and welding under a hood of some
sort.

There are methods of arresting sparks from grinders but I'm not very
familiar with them. You will also have to give some thought to make-up
air so you don't suffocate. Minimally you need CO detectors. This of
course doesn't protect you against displacing all of the oxygen in the
room with CO2 or Argon.

It's probably going to cost almost as much to convert your basement as
it would to build a garage of equal size.

Cheers,

Kelley

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:04:06 -0600, "Jeff B" wrote:

I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

My question is, am I crazy to think about building an enclosed room in my
(currently unfinished) basement? The space I have that I could allocate to
this is about 12' x 15'. I was thinking that I'd leave the floor concrete
and put up drywall all the way around... sound isolation would be a major
concern. It would almost be pointless to have this workshop if I could use
it late at night while the family is sleep (2 floor up). I guess before I
go on too much more I should mention what I actually want to do in it! It
will mainly be for Tig welding, which I'm not concerned about excessive
noise or dirt/debris levels, but I will also be prepping/making the pieces
that will be welded in this room as well. This means grinding, drilling,
cutting, etc. I won't have any air ducts going to this room, so hopefully
the mess would stay enclosed in there, but basically I'm looking for a real
world sanity from anybody else that has done this. If I'm shop-vaccing the
room twice a week, can I actually pull this off without ruining my house?
If anyone else has built something like this, I'd love to see some pictures.
I am just trying to prepare my "case" for when I tell the wife "oh yeah, I'm
going to start welding in the basement, but don't worry, the whole house
won't be covered in aluminum shavings" :-)

Thanks
Jeff

Kelley Mascher wrote:

For sound control, look into resilient z-channel attachement for the
sheet rock, especially the ceiling. There are also special sound
attenuation blankets you can use in the rafters.

You will also need to look into air scrubbers to take care of any
smoke generated. There will be smoke. You can probably use a smaller
scrubber if you do your grinding and welding under a hood of some
sort.

There are methods of arresting sparks from grinders but I'm not very
familiar with them. You will also have to give some thought to make-up
air so you don't suffocate. Minimally you need CO detectors. This of
course doesn't protect you against displacing all of the oxygen in the
room with CO2 or Argon.

It's probably going to cost almost as much to convert your basement as
it would to build a garage of equal size.

Cheers,

Kelley

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:04:06 -0600, "Jeff B" wrote:

I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

My question is, am I crazy to think about building an enclosed room in my
(currently unfinished) basement? The space I have that I could allocate to
this is about 12' x 15'. I was thinking that I'd leave the floor concrete
and put up drywall all the way around... sound isolation would be a major
concern. It would almost be pointless to have this workshop if I could use
it late at night while the family is sleep (2 floor up). I guess before I
go on too much more I should mention what I actually want to do in it! It
will mainly be for Tig welding, which I'm not concerned about excessive
noise or dirt/debris levels, but I will also be prepping/making the pieces
that will be welded in this room as well. This means grinding, drilling,
cutting, etc. I won't have any air ducts going to this room, so hopefully
the mess would stay enclosed in there, but basically I'm looking for a real
world sanity from anybody else that has done this. If I'm shop-vaccing the
room twice a week, can I actually pull this off without ruining my house?
If anyone else has built something like this, I'd love to see some pictures.
I am just trying to prepare my "case" for when I tell the wife "oh yeah, I'm
going to start welding in the basement, but don't worry, the whole house
won't be covered in aluminum shavings" :-)

Thanks
Jeff


While displacing oxygen with the Argon is possible and you certainly
need proper ventilation, you also need to look realistically at the
actual risk. If you're doing small time TIG you probably don't have a
huge tank of Argon, I have an 80cf tank. A 12' x 15' room is 180 sq. ft.
so if you dumped an entire 80cf tank you could only displace a little
less than 6" off the floor. Could be a problem for a cat or small dog,
but pretty unlikely to be a true risk to a human. Even a big 220cf tank
would only do like 16" off the floor. In real world use you're not going
to come anywhere close to dumping that much Argon in an evenings
project. If the basement is fully underground I would recommend a low
level exhaust vent intake to prevent a continuing buildup of Argon.

Pete C.

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

While displacing oxygen with the Argon is possible and you certainly
need proper ventilation, you also need to look realistically at the
actual risk.
snip
In real world use you're not going to come anywhere close to dumping
that much Argon in an evenings project.

Don't forget that, in the real world, cylinders have been known to leak.

DeepDiver wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

While displacing oxygen with the Argon is possible and you certainly
need proper ventilation, you also need to look realistically at the
actual risk.
snip
In real world use you're not going to come anywhere close to dumping
that much Argon in an evenings project.

Don't forget that, in the real world, cylinders have been known to leak.

Yes, but my point was that even dumping a full 220cf cylinder will not
create a hazard to humans. I am making the fairly safe assumption that a
hobby welder will not be storing a dozen leaking 220cf Argon tanks in
their work area though.

Pete C.

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:21:28 -0800, Kelley Mascher
wrote:

For sound control, look into resilient z-channel attachement for the
sheet rock, especially the ceiling. There are also special sound
attenuation blankets you can use in the rafters.

You will also need to look into air scrubbers to take care of any
smoke generated. There will be smoke. You can probably use a smaller
scrubber if you do your grinding and welding under a hood of some
sort.

There are methods of arresting sparks from grinders but I'm not very
familiar with them. You will also have to give some thought to make-up
air so you don't suffocate. Minimally you need CO detectors. This of
course doesn't protect you against displacing all of the oxygen in the
room with CO2 or Argon.

Flow of argon when TIG welding is typically about 20 cu ft/hr. A 12
x 15 room has over 1000 cu ft of air in it. Three hours of
uninterrupted welding wouldn't displace 10% of the air in the room.
It'd get kinda hot in there without ventilation, though!

Well, now that you've gotten a consensus of opinion, your decision should be
easy!

Peter


"Jeff B" wrote in message
news:Xxqaf.2461$IC.759@dukeread07...
I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

My question is, am I crazy to think about building an enclosed room in my
(currently unfinished) basement? The space I have that I could allocate
to this is about 12' x 15'. I was thinking that I'd leave the floor
concrete and put up drywall all the way around... sound isolation would be
a major concern. It would almost be pointless to have this workshop if I
could use it late at night while the family is sleep (2 floor up). I
guess before I go on too much more I should mention what I actually want
to do in it! It will mainly be for Tig welding, which I'm not concerned
about excessive noise or dirt/debris levels, but I will also be
prepping/making the pieces that will be welded in this room as well. This
means grinding, drilling, cutting, etc. I won't have any air ducts going
to this room, so hopefully the mess would stay enclosed in there, but
basically I'm looking for a real world sanity from anybody else that has
done this. If I'm shop-vaccing the room twice a week, can I actually pull
this off without ruining my house? If anyone else has built something like
this, I'd love to see some pictures. I am just trying to prepare my "case"
for when I tell the wife "oh yeah, I'm going to start welding in the
basement, but don't worry, the whole house won't be covered in aluminum
shavings" :-)

Thanks
Jeff

Here's another thought to consider.


I know a guy (internet acquaintance) that happens to be a real live rocket
scientist. Sometimes he likes to build stuff of his own design just for the
fun of it, but he doesn't own any machine tools, or have a place to put
them.

When the urge to be creative with metal hits him, he enrolls in the local
trade school. The teacher allows him to use all the equipment because he has
enough knowledge to use them properly. The student ignores his grade, and
makes himself at home with whatever project he is working on.

This gives him plenty of space, and a large assortment of quality machines
to use.

"Peter Grey" wrote in message
nk.net...
Well, now that you've gotten a consensus of opinion, your decision should
be
easy!

Peter


"Jeff B" wrote in message
news:Xxqaf.2461$IC.759@dukeread07...
I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it
looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

My question is, am I crazy to think about building an enclosed room in
my
(currently unfinished) basement? The space I have that I could allocate
to this is about 12' x 15'. I was thinking that I'd leave the floor
concrete and put up drywall all the way around... sound isolation would
be
a major concern. It would almost be pointless to have this workshop if
I
could use it late at night while the family is sleep (2 floor up). I
guess before I go on too much more I should mention what I actually want
to do in it! It will mainly be for Tig welding, which I'm not
concerned
about excessive noise or dirt/debris levels, but I will also be
prepping/making the pieces that will be welded in this room as well.
This
means grinding, drilling, cutting, etc. I won't have any air ducts
going
to this room, so hopefully the mess would stay enclosed in there, but
basically I'm looking for a real world sanity from anybody else that has
done this. If I'm shop-vaccing the room twice a week, can I actually
pull
this off without ruining my house? If anyone else has built something
like
this, I'd love to see some pictures. I am just trying to prepare my
"case"
for when I tell the wife "oh yeah, I'm going to start welding in the
basement, but don't worry, the whole house won't be covered in aluminum
shavings" :-)

Thanks
Jeff

The biggest thing to remember about doing work in a basement
shop....dont build anything bigger than what you can get out of the
basement.....

Gunner

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry

In article , Gunner says...

The biggest thing to remember about doing work in a basement
shop....dont build anything bigger than what you can get out of the
basement.....

Or heavier. I've been redoing a '59 BMW R50 this past summer, I
got the powder coated frame back around august. I stuck it on
a crate in the shop, and started bolting things onto it. Good
thing I stopped before the engine, because it took two of
us to carry it up the stairs and into the garage.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 6 Nov 2005 11:24:13 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

The biggest thing to remember about doing work in a basement
shop....dont build anything bigger than what you can get out of the
basement.....

Or heavier. I've been redoing a '59 BMW R50 this past summer, I
got the powder coated frame back around august. I stuck it on
a crate in the shop, and started bolting things onto it. Good
thing I stopped before the engine, because it took two of
us to carry it up the stairs and into the garage.

Heh, got that t-shirt too. Did you take pics of th'
rebuild/restoration Jim? Always liked those older Beemers.

Snarl

Let the record show that Gunner wrote back
on Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:49:44 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
The biggest thing to remember about doing work in a basement
shop....dont build anything bigger than what you can get out of the
basement.....

And don't forget the turn at the top of the stairs.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

pyotr filipivich wrote:
Let the record show that Gunner wrote back
on Sun, 06 Nov 2005 11:49:44 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :

The biggest thing to remember about doing work in a basement
shop....dont build anything bigger than what you can get out of the
basement.....


And don't forget the turn at the top of the stairs.
Every house I've owned (that's 2) has had a walk-out basement. No
walk-out, and I just scratch it off the list.

Jon

"Jeff B" wrote in message
news:Xxqaf.2461$IC.759@dukeread07...
I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

My question is, am I crazy to think about building an enclosed room in my
(currently unfinished) basement? The space I have that I could allocate
to this is about 12' x 15'. I was thinking that I'd leave the floor
concrete and put up drywall all the way around... sound isolation would be
a major concern. It would almost be pointless to have this workshop if I
could use it late at night while the family is sleep (2 floor up). I
guess before I go on too much more I should mention what I actually want
to do in it! It will mainly be for Tig welding, which I'm not concerned
about excessive noise or dirt/debris levels, but I will also be
prepping/making the pieces that will be welded in this room as well. This
means grinding, drilling, cutting, etc. I won't have any air ducts going
to this room, so hopefully the mess would stay enclosed in there, but
basically I'm looking for a real world sanity from anybody else that has
done this. If I'm shop-vaccing the room twice a week, can I actually pull
this off without ruining my house? If anyone else has built something like
this, I'd love to see some pictures. I am just trying to prepare my "case"
for when I tell the wife "oh yeah, I'm going to start welding in the
basement, but don't worry, the whole house won't be covered in aluminum
shavings" :-)

We're in a townhome with similar garage space limitations and most of my
shop is in the basement. Lathe, vertical & horizontal mills, T&C grinder,
surface grinder, 4x6 bandsaw, shaper, tool carts, work benches, etc. Noise
hasn't been a problem yet - at least the neighbors haven't complained in
over 5 years, though my wife objects to hammering at 2:00 am. I wouldn't
feel at all comfortable welding down there, especially with no ventilation.

If you proceed with dry walling in a shop, make sure that you plan
adequately for a multitude of electrical outlets, both 110 and 220 VAC and
plan on plenty of lighting fixtures. I'd put 110 VAC outlets about every 4
feet with 220 VAC availabel every 8 to 12 feet.

Mike

My solution to the dirt/ chips problem is an old pair of boots that are
kept at the entry to the basement, used in the basement, and never worn
in the house.

Dan

Jeff B wrote:

I have a newer home that has garages *barely* deep enough for the cars
themselves. I also have neighborhood covenants forbidding any kind of
outside shed, shop, etc. So basically, if I want a place to play it looks
like it's going to have to be in the basement.

My question is, am I crazy to think about building an enclosed room in my
(currently unfinished) basement? The space I have that I could allocate to
this is about 12' x 15'. I was thinking that I'd leave the floor concrete
and put up drywall all the way around... sound isolation would be a major
concern. It would almost be pointless to have this workshop if I could use
it late at night while the family is sleep (2 floor up). I guess before I
go on too much more I should mention what I actually want to do in it! It
will mainly be for Tig welding, which I'm not concerned about excessive
noise or dirt/debris levels, but I will also be prepping/making the pieces
that will be welded in this room as well. This means grinding, drilling,
cutting, etc. I won't have any air ducts going to this room, so hopefully
the mess would stay enclosed in there, but basically I'm looking for a real
world sanity from anybody else that has done this. If I'm shop-vaccing the
room twice a week, can I actually pull this off without ruining my house?
If anyone else has built something like this, I'd love to see some pictures.
I am just trying to prepare my "case" for when I tell the wife "oh yeah, I'm
going to start welding in the basement, but don't worry, the whole house
won't be covered in aluminum shavings" :-)


If you have no ventilation, it may get unbearably hot in there.

I have a metal shop in a part of my basement. For noise reasons, I
put the big machines at the opposite end of the ranch house from the
bedrooms. I can run a shop vac, which is about the noisiest things
I have, without disturbing the family at night.

I have a homemade fume hood for spray painting and TIG work, with an
outdoor vent. Basically made with dryer vent parts through the foundation
wall.

We do have a slight problem with people picking up metal slivers in their
(bare) feet somewhere in the house. I do as best as I can to clean up swarf
on the floor and brush off my shoes when I leave the shop. And,
sometimes the
kids visit me barefoot in the shop, and I warn them every time they are
risking a sliver or even a trip to the emergency room. Aluminum is no
problem, the thin slivers are weaker than skin, and crumple rather than
penetrate deeply into the foot. Steel slivers are an entirely different
matter,
they will plunge WAY deep into the toughest flesh on occasion.

So, if you take some basic precautions with an astroturf-type welcome mat
to brush your feet off on, and generally clean up whenever you are done
making chips, it will NOT destroy your house. (Don't go and get $9000
worth of wall-to-wall Berber carpet, either.)

The biggest complaint I get is SMELLS! Especially, I have to paint when
the rest of the family is away. If I absolutely have to paint something
while
they are there, I get a bunch of static, even with the fume hood.
Without that,
the fumes would drive me out, too, unless they made me PASS out. Hmm,
that reminds me - you really CAN'T TIG weld in a closed space. The Argon
will drive out all the oxygen after a while, and you'll slowly croak.

Jon

I have a homemade fume hood for spray painting and TIG work, with an
outdoor vent. Basically made with dryer vent parts through the foundation
wall.

Interesting. Any special precautions for the motor? When I can make
time, I like to draw (no fumes) and paint (lots of volatile stench).
Ott lights allow me to work at night, but ventilation is still a
problem. On my pre-drawing board is an idea for a cart with an easily
sealable pallete holder, room for a couple of palletes[*], and some type
of fume hood that ejects via a hose to a plastic panel placed in a
nearby window. I can see this thing in my living room; now I just have
to design and build it =:0

One concern I have is that I don't want sparking in a motor to cause a
fire (or worse) with all of the wonderful turpentine, varnish and oil fumes.
[*] these are fighting words in some circles, but only glass need apply,
and I find the easiest way to keep the mixing area from growing out of
control is to involve a separate pallete in the task.



We do have a slight problem with people picking up metal slivers in their
(bare) feet somewhere in the house. I do as best as I can to clean up
swarf
on the floor and brush off my shoes when I leave the shop. And,
sometimes the
kids visit me barefoot in the shop, and I warn them every time they are
risking a sliver or even a trip to the emergency room. Aluminum is no
problem, the thin slivers are weaker than skin, and crumple rather than
penetrate deeply into the foot. Steel slivers are an entirely different
matter,
they will plunge WAY deep into the toughest flesh on occasion.

My big concern with chips is picking them up in shoes and using them as
rasps to destroy wood floors that are everywhere in the house. I like
them, but would have used a lot more tile. Of course, steal would do a
lot of damage to tile too

I have finger matts around my milling machine, which is the primary
generator of "large" sharp chips. The theory is that the chips
typically fall into the cracks and my shoes never actually get a chance
to pick them up. _Seems_ to be working so far.


So, if you take some basic precautions with an astroturf-type welcome mat
to brush your feet off on, and generally clean up whenever you are done
making chips, it will NOT destroy your house. (Don't go and get $9000
worth of wall-to-wall Berber carpet, either.)

Seconded. I also have a more traditional matt that I cross before
entering the house, the idea being that if I do pick up a make shift
razor blade, I will hopefully feel it there before reaching the
expensive flooring.


The biggest complaint I get is SMELLS! Especially, I have to paint when
the rest of the family is away. If I absolutely have to paint something
while
they are there, I get a bunch of static, even with the fume hood.
Without that,
the fumes would drive me out, too, unless they made me PASS out. Hmm,
that reminds me - you really CAN'T TIG weld in a closed space. The Argon
will drive out all the oxygen after a while, and you'll slowly croak.

I might have been the first to mention the danger, and I will be the
first to admit it is unlikely to happen. However, there are people no
longer part of this world who got that way because of inert gas leaks.
It's certainly something to consider.

Bill

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 18:17:36 -0500, Bill Schwab
wrote:

I have a homemade fume hood for spray painting and TIG work, with an
outdoor vent. Basically made with dryer vent parts through the foundation
wall.

Interesting. Any special precautions for the motor? When I can make
time, I like to draw (no fumes) and paint (lots of volatile stench).
Ott lights allow me to work at night, but ventilation is still a
problem. On my pre-drawing board is an idea for a cart with an easily
sealable pallete holder, room for a couple of palletes[*], and some type
of fume hood that ejects via a hose to a plastic panel placed in a
nearby window. I can see this thing in my living room; now I just have
to design and build it =:0

One concern I have is that I don't want sparking in a motor to cause a
fire (or worse) with all of the wonderful turpentine, varnish and oil fumes.

Then you want to put in a solid sheetmetal duct to the outside, or
preferably up to the roof in a chase lined with drywall as an
additional firestop. Then use a 'mushroom' style up-blast ventilator
fan or a squirrel cage style blower on the roof - either style with a
bypass motor that is NOT in the airflow.

The ones sold for commercial kitchen vent hoods will work fine for
this, they can run sucking out fumes from a roaring grease fire inside
the ducts long enough to let it consume all the fuel and go out - or
to suck the dry chemical powder up the flue and put it out in place.

Restaurant hood style ducts to the outside would be overkill but
they are designed to safely contain a fire - they use welded heavy
gauge steel (looks like 1/8" plate) for the inner duct, then they wrap
it in an outer sheetmetal duct, then the whole thing is in a drywalled
chase.

The upblast fan on the roof will get those vapors far enough from
the house to keep them from being noticed inside. You hope.

The biggest complaint I get is SMELLS! Especially, I have to paint when
the rest of the family is away. If I absolutely have to paint something
while
they are there, I get a bunch of static, even with the fume hood.
Without that,
the fumes would drive me out, too, unless they made me PASS out. Hmm,
that reminds me - you really CAN'T TIG weld in a closed space. The Argon
will drive out all the oxygen after a while, and you'll slowly croak.

I might have been the first to mention the danger, and I will be the
first to admit it is unlikely to happen. However, there are people no
longer part of this world who got that way because of inert gas leaks.
It's certainly something to consider.

You can't really build up enough inert gas to off yourself - a big
enough tank leak to do it in a small room would be heard. (Sssssss!)
But sucking down welding fumes for long periods of time would do it,
and paint fumes won't help your health any either.

Oh, a paint hood would be the same basic thing as your welding area,
but you add paint capture pads to keep the stuff out of the ductwork.

Matter of fact, you could buy a prefab sheetmetal paint booth and
exhaust system, and use it for everything. Just roll out the paint
platform cart, take out the paint capture pads, and roll in your
welding table cart. And make sure all the solvent fumes have
dissipated before striking an arc.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Bill Schwab wrote:
I have a homemade fume hood for spray painting and TIG work, with an
outdoor vent. Basically made with dryer vent parts through the
foundation
wall.


Interesting. Any special precautions for the motor?
The motor is outside the hood, and is a shaded-pole, so there is
no starting switch to spark. Anyway, I usually start the blower
first, paint, clean up the mess, and leave the blower on for a couple
of hours. So, there wouldn't be any sparks while the fumes are
present.

This is a Dayton centrifugal blower, rated at something like 100 CFM
continuous. You have to throttle it a bit, or the motor draws too
much current and overheats.
When I can make
time, I like to draw (no fumes) and paint (lots of volatile stench). Ott
lights allow me to work at night, but ventilation is still a problem.
On my pre-drawing board is an idea for a cart with an easily sealable
pallete holder, room for a couple of palletes[*], and some type of fume
hood that ejects via a hose to a plastic panel placed in a nearby
window. I can see this thing in my living room; now I just have to
design and build it =:0

One concern I have is that I don't want sparking in a motor to cause a
fire (or worse) with all of the wonderful turpentine, varnish and oil
fumes.

I do spray painting of electronic enclosures, with a 2-component
chromate wash primer and bake-on enamel. The enamel has some volatile
fumes to it, but the primer is REALLY potent stuff.
The switch that turns the blower on can spark, but I've never had any
problem with this setup. When it is working right, most of the fumes
are sent outside, and there is only a modest smell. Sometimes the
spray gun swirls the air around in the hood and a blast of solvent-
laden air gets out in the room. I used to paint with a sheet of
plastic dropcloth material with a few slits closing off the front
opening of the hood, but the plastic got painted so quick I was
working blind within minutes. So, I've been leaving the plastic
off, but I ought to put it back. That really contains the fumes
better.

Jon

1. You should be fine welding in the basement.

I would make sure you have a defined are , line the walls with
something fireproof and set up some movable screens to shield any other
basement storage items.

An air cleaner or simple exhaust fan may be advisable. Do a couple of
small tests, it should be very obvious if you generate enough fumes.
Any welding using a flux would certainly need an exhaust fan.


2. Check your covanants very carefully. In my area many have been found
to be unenforcable because they are too restrictive. You could always
build onto the house keeping the same style.