Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
wrote in message ... So I have three questions: 1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about? Or am I concerned over nothing? Should I keep my nose out of this? You shouldn't "worry" about it, but the problem should be remedied. 2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in other words, is this something a local government building inspector would take an interest in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if that makes any difference). Local code enforcers vary in thier interpretations, so i can speak for him, but generally, basements must have a drainage system in place. 3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best approach to take with the contractor? Should my family member insist that a new layer of concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would that create other problems? Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just leaving well enough alone? If you are a contractor, would you categorize this sort of defect as "serious" or "minor"? Have a meeting with the contractor on site so the problem can be seen by all. A topping of concrete can be applied to the floor to achieve adequate drainage. Check with your local concrete supplier. They will have a "topping" mix design, and the procedure for application. I would categorize this defect serious, with a simple solution. 4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that something that the homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that be considered a serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should be required to fix it on his nickel? What you describe is not within any tolerances for poured concrete, therefore it would be considered performed with poor workmanship. The expense would rest with the concrete finisher, but ultimately with your builder. Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done anything like this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is whether this is a significant problem, or something fairly normal? I have a feeling the contractor is not going to think it's anything to be concerned about, and if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over? Time is of the essence here - if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much harder to do so after another week or so. As I said earlier, it is a significant problem with an easy fix. If he feels that a sump pump that is placed in the highest point of the basement is nothing to worry about, you need a new builder. He should have contingencies in his pricing to cover mistakes such as this. If he balks, ask him if his basement drains properly. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
|
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
wrote in message ... A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully "set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged), EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up. In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much as an inch of water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to run UPHILL to reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this basement is built on pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or so down the road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect that there would be too many situations where the basement might flood - but on the other hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much easier to deal with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the sump. I should probably also mention that this basement was constructed with extra headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor would be doable (in terms of not losing space). And, the general contractor seems like an honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this problem yet. So I have three questions: 1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about? You have three questions right here, nobody. This one does not warrant "worry." Concern and attention, yes. Or am I concerned over nothing? See above and below. Should I keep my nose out of this? That's up to you. Are you your brother's keeper? If it is your concern, nose on in. If it is not your concern, you can share what advice you choose with your family member. 2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in other words, is this something a local government building inspector would take an interest in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if that makes any difference). Perhaps codes, certainly building standards . . . especially the one known as "commonly prevailing in the market." 3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best approach to take with the contractor? Now with four questions! I wish I could pay my bills with your math. First, bring it to the builder's or general contractor's attention in an informative, not accusitorial, way. Should my family member insist that a new layer of concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would that create other problems? You slipped another question in here. No and yes, respecitvely. Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just leaving well enough alone? No. If you are a contractor, would you categorize this sort of defect as "serious" or "minor"? I would categorize it is a defect without adding an inflamatory adjective. (A pretty routine defect, sorry to say, and very likely created just as you surmised, as all the grading indicators would have been removed or obliterated by the time the finisher reached that corner.) As a defect, I would correct it to reasonable industry standards. 4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that something that the homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that be considered a serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should be required to fix it on his nickel? No and yes, respectively. Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done anything like this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is whether this is a significant problem, It is not a problem . . . only a defect and a minor challenge. or something fairly normal? I wouldn't say normal, but I wouldn't say abnormal, either. You know what they say "happens." Well, it does, and you have to wipe. I have a feeling the contractor is not going to think it's anything to be concerned about, and if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over? No. I have a feeling, also, the contractor is not going to think it is anything to be concerned about, as he knows he will take care of and correct the defect without your concern. Time is of the essence here - You could have left this out. Time is always of the essence. if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much harder to do so after another week or so. You say so. Why? The quicker the better, I'd say as a general rule, but you say much harder. Let the contractor set his schedule. He has far more scheduling considerations than does a new home buyer (who has plenty without worry over a detail). My advice in one word (your math): Don't sweat it. Be thankful if that is the only "defect" you'll discover or, at least, the worst. (But, somehow, I expect we will hear from you again.) Have your relative speak to the builder or contractor. That is your relative's responsibility (first) on any question or concern. I have one more word for your relative: Relax. Enjoy the building of your new home. It is interesting. Be a partner with the contractor. He is not your enemy. He is, right now, more proud of what he is doing than you are. He wants you to be more proud than he once you have taken posession. I have seen many, many new homeowners worry themselves sick before moving in . . . and for a year thereafter, looking for anything than they might have missed or could go wrong. They have missed, forever, one of the great experiences of life. Count the blessings. They are many in a new home. Defects, like life, are sure to be there. A house, a home, like a life ain't perfect but it is a joy . . . if enjoyed. Jim |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
wrote in message ... A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully "set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged), EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up. In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much as an inch of water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to run UPHILL to reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this basement is built on pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or so down the road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect that there would be too many situations where the basement might flood - but on the other hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much easier to deal with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the sump. I should probably also mention that this basement was constructed with extra headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor would be doable (in terms of not losing space). And, the general contractor seems like an honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this problem yet. So I have three questions: 1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about? You have three questions right here, nobody. This one does not warrant "worry." Concern and attention, yes. Or am I concerned over nothing? See above and below. Should I keep my nose out of this? That's up to you. Are you your brother's keeper? If it is your concern, nose on in. If it is not your concern, you can share what advice you choose with your family member. 2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in other words, is this something a local government building inspector would take an interest in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if that makes any difference). Perhaps codes, certainly building standards . . . especially the one known as "commonly prevailing in the market." 3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best approach to take with the contractor? Now with four questions! I wish I could pay my bills with your math. First, bring it to the builder's or general contractor's attention in an informative, not accusitorial, way. Should my family member insist that a new layer of concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would that create other problems? You slipped another question in here. No and yes, respecitvely. Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just leaving well enough alone? No. If you are a contractor, would you categorize this sort of defect as "serious" or "minor"? I would categorize it is a defect without adding an inflamatory adjective. (A pretty routine defect, sorry to say, and very likely created just as you surmised, as all the grading indicators would have been removed or obliterated by the time the finisher reached that corner.) As a defect, I would correct it to reasonable industry standards. 4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that something that the homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that be considered a serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should be required to fix it on his nickel? No and yes, respectively. Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done anything like this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is whether this is a significant problem, It is not a problem . . . only a defect and a minor challenge. or something fairly normal? I wouldn't say normal, but I wouldn't say abnormal, either. You know what they say "happens." Well, it does, and you have to wipe. I have a feeling the contractor is not going to think it's anything to be concerned about, and if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over? No. I have a feeling, also, the contractor is not going to think it is anything to be concerned about, as he knows he will take care of and correct the defect without your concern. Time is of the essence here - You could have left this out. Time is always of the essence. if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much harder to do so after another week or so. You say so. Why? The quicker the better, I'd say as a general rule, but you say much harder. Let the contractor set his schedule. He has far more scheduling considerations than does a new home buyer (who has plenty without worry over a detail). My advice in one word (your math): Don't sweat it. Be thankful if that is the only "defect" you'll discover or, at least, the worst. (But, somehow, I expect we will hear from you again.) Have your relative speak to the builder or contractor. That is your relative's responsibility (first) on any question or concern. I have one more word for your relative: Relax. Enjoy the building of your new home. It is interesting. Be a partner with the contractor. He is not your enemy. He is, right now, more proud of what he is doing than you are. He wants you to be more proud than he once you have taken posession. I have seen many, many new homeowners worry themselves sick before moving in . . . and for a year thereafter, looking for anything than they might have missed or could go wrong. They have missed, forever, one of the great experiences of life. Count the blessings. They are many in a new home. Defects, like life, are sure to be there. A house, a home, like a life ain't perfect but it is a joy . . . if enjoyed. Jim |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
I have one more word for your relative: Relax. Enjoy the building of your new home. It is interesting. Be a partner with the contractor. He is not your enemy. He is, right now, more proud of what he is doing than you are. He wants you to be more proud than he once you have taken posession. I have seen many, many new homeowners worry themselves sick before moving in . . . and for a year thereafter, looking for anything than they might have missed or could go wrong. They have missed, forever, one of the great experiences of life. Count the blessings. They are many in a new home. Defects, like life, are sure to be there. A house, a home, like a life ain't perfect but it is a joy . . . if enjoyed. Jim That is on the verge of being true poetry. I've never heard it said better. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
I have one more word for your relative: Relax. Enjoy the building of your new home. It is interesting. Be a partner with the contractor. He is not your enemy. He is, right now, more proud of what he is doing than you are. He wants you to be more proud than he once you have taken posession. I have seen many, many new homeowners worry themselves sick before moving in . . . and for a year thereafter, looking for anything than they might have missed or could go wrong. They have missed, forever, one of the great experiences of life. Count the blessings. They are many in a new home. Defects, like life, are sure to be there. A house, a home, like a life ain't perfect but it is a joy . . . if enjoyed. Jim That is on the verge of being true poetry. I've never heard it said better. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:26:00 -0400, someone wrote:
A sump and a drain are two different things. A sump pit is NOT typically to collect water that is already on the basement floor, it is fed by pipes under the slab to keep water from rising up. Why does this house with excellent drainage need a sump pit? If there are floor drains, yes the floor has to be pitched to them, but most people do NOT want sloping floors. If there is no spec for the job that the floor has to pitch to drain, there is probably no obligation on the part of the contractor to do anything. There is a customary tolerance of un-evenness, a residential basement will NOT be finished to a commercial flatwork standard unless that is specified (and paid for). The owner should tell the contractor his concerns, see if something can be worked out, but it does NOT appear to be a "defect" that the contractor has to fix. -v. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:26:00 -0400, someone wrote:
A sump and a drain are two different things. A sump pit is NOT typically to collect water that is already on the basement floor, it is fed by pipes under the slab to keep water from rising up. Why does this house with excellent drainage need a sump pit? If there are floor drains, yes the floor has to be pitched to them, but most people do NOT want sloping floors. If there is no spec for the job that the floor has to pitch to drain, there is probably no obligation on the part of the contractor to do anything. There is a customary tolerance of un-evenness, a residential basement will NOT be finished to a commercial flatwork standard unless that is specified (and paid for). The owner should tell the contractor his concerns, see if something can be worked out, but it does NOT appear to be a "defect" that the contractor has to fix. -v. |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
|
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
Brad wrote in message news:MPG.19da17cfcb2cc13598b708@news...
In article , said... A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully "set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged), EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up. From your description it sounds like the basement was open to the sky when it rained, right? No house on top of it yet? In that case, not to worry. The sump is not really there to drain the basement from the inside. If correctly installed, the way it works is this: drainpipes are installed circling the perimeter of the foundation on the outside, and are connected to the sump pit. When it rains water seeps through the ground, hits these drainpipes, goes to the sump to get pumped out. In other words it intercepts the water before it gets to the foundation itself. The ground next to and below the basement stays dry. There may also be a floor drain in the basement (and/or in the stairwell, if there is an outside entrance to the basement) that drains to the sump. The only circumstance where the water would drain from the basement floor directly into the sump pit would be if there is a pipe leak, washing machine overflow or some such. Again a floor drain usually handles that. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
Brad wrote in message news:MPG.19da17cfcb2cc13598b708@news...
In article , said... A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully "set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged), EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up. From your description it sounds like the basement was open to the sky when it rained, right? No house on top of it yet? In that case, not to worry. The sump is not really there to drain the basement from the inside. If correctly installed, the way it works is this: drainpipes are installed circling the perimeter of the foundation on the outside, and are connected to the sump pit. When it rains water seeps through the ground, hits these drainpipes, goes to the sump to get pumped out. In other words it intercepts the water before it gets to the foundation itself. The ground next to and below the basement stays dry. There may also be a floor drain in the basement (and/or in the stairwell, if there is an outside entrance to the basement) that drains to the sump. The only circumstance where the water would drain from the basement floor directly into the sump pit would be if there is a pipe leak, washing machine overflow or some such. Again a floor drain usually handles that. |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
In a perfect world, the sump would never pump water from anywhere but the
outside drainage system and the basement would always be cozy and dry. In the real world, we have fast snow melts, heavy rains, etc. that tend to end up at the lowest point in the area (i.e. a basement), and the sump is real handy to get rid of the extra water. In my years of building, I have yet to see a basement that is perfectly dry after a few years. The sump is a good backup plan for basement flooding, and if it is at the highest point, it sucks (...air that is, rather than H20). Think about the landscapers that build up beds around the house and create a dam for drainage. It happens daily. "Doug Swetland" wrote in message ... wrote: A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully "set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged), EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up. In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much as an inch of water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to run UPHILL to reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this basement is built on pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or so down the road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect that there would be too many situations where the basement might flood - but on the other hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much easier to deal with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the sump. I should probably also mention that this basement was constructed with extra headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor would be doable (in terms of not losing space). And, the general contractor seems like an honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this problem yet. So I have three questions: 1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about? Or am I concerned over nothing? Should I keep my nose out of this? 2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in other words, is this something a local government building inspector would take an interest in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if that makes any difference). 3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best approach to take with the contractor? Should my family member insist that a new layer of concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would that create other problems? Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just leaving well enough alone? If you are a contractor, would you categorize this sort of defect as "serious" or "minor"? 4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that something that the homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that be considered a serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should be required to fix it on his nickel? Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done anything like this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is whether this is a significant problem, or something fairly normal? I have a feeling the contractor is not going to think it's anything to be concerned about, and if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over? Time is of the essence here - if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much harder to do so after another week or so. Please Note: The email address in the message header will NOT work. If you want to reply privately, please use "usenet092303", followed by the "at" symbol, followed by "workbench.net" (no quotation marks, of course). That e-mail address will go away after about a week (by then any advice would be too late to be useful anyway), so don't use it after October 1, 2003. I don't think you have a problem. The purpose of a sump system is to remove rising ground water before it gets into the basement. It should have drain tiles next to the foundation that direct the water into the sump pit and then the pump will take it from there. The level of the floor should have no affect on this capability. If water gets into the basement you've got other problems that need to be fixed (landscaping, pipes, etc). It is reasonable to want a floor to slope to the sump pit, but that should have been specified in the building contract. With a heavy sand base I suspect the pump will rarely be used as the drainage should be excellent. Make sure the inspector and the builder know about the situation and find out what the codes specifiy. I suspect your family member will be very happy with a dry basement and plenty of headroom. I've got a full basement in a heavy clay base, no foundation drain tiles and am at the bottom of a hill. I put a sump pit in the lowest corner as a stop gap measure. I'd rather have your problem. (The pit hasn't been used in a couple years since I installed various drainage systems in the yard.) dss |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement
In a perfect world, the sump would never pump water from anywhere but the
outside drainage system and the basement would always be cozy and dry. In the real world, we have fast snow melts, heavy rains, etc. that tend to end up at the lowest point in the area (i.e. a basement), and the sump is real handy to get rid of the extra water. In my years of building, I have yet to see a basement that is perfectly dry after a few years. The sump is a good backup plan for basement flooding, and if it is at the highest point, it sucks (...air that is, rather than H20). Think about the landscapers that build up beds around the house and create a dam for drainage. It happens daily. "Doug Swetland" wrote in message ... wrote: A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully "set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged), EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up. In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much as an inch of water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to run UPHILL to reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this basement is built on pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or so down the road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect that there would be too many situations where the basement might flood - but on the other hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much easier to deal with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the sump. I should probably also mention that this basement was constructed with extra headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor would be doable (in terms of not losing space). And, the general contractor seems like an honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this problem yet. So I have three questions: 1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about? Or am I concerned over nothing? Should I keep my nose out of this? 2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in other words, is this something a local government building inspector would take an interest in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if that makes any difference). 3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best approach to take with the contractor? Should my family member insist that a new layer of concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would that create other problems? Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just leaving well enough alone? If you are a contractor, would you categorize this sort of defect as "serious" or "minor"? 4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that something that the homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that be considered a serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should be required to fix it on his nickel? Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done anything like this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is whether this is a significant problem, or something fairly normal? I have a feeling the contractor is not going to think it's anything to be concerned about, and if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over? Time is of the essence here - if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much harder to do so after another week or so. Please Note: The email address in the message header will NOT work. If you want to reply privately, please use "usenet092303", followed by the "at" symbol, followed by "workbench.net" (no quotation marks, of course). That e-mail address will go away after about a week (by then any advice would be too late to be useful anyway), so don't use it after October 1, 2003. I don't think you have a problem. The purpose of a sump system is to remove rising ground water before it gets into the basement. It should have drain tiles next to the foundation that direct the water into the sump pit and then the pump will take it from there. The level of the floor should have no affect on this capability. If water gets into the basement you've got other problems that need to be fixed (landscaping, pipes, etc). It is reasonable to want a floor to slope to the sump pit, but that should have been specified in the building contract. With a heavy sand base I suspect the pump will rarely be used as the drainage should be excellent. Make sure the inspector and the builder know about the situation and find out what the codes specifiy. I suspect your family member will be very happy with a dry basement and plenty of headroom. I've got a full basement in a heavy clay base, no foundation drain tiles and am at the bottom of a hill. I put a sump pit in the lowest corner as a stop gap measure. I'd rather have your problem. (The pit hasn't been used in a couple years since I installed various drainage systems in the yard.) dss |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
advice sought - builder's idea for damp proofing a basement | UK diy | |||
Advice needed wet basement | Metalworking | |||
Cosmetic Aluminum 'Hole Plugging' Help Needed | Metalworking |